Marriage: Virgins vs Non-virgins
- Thread starter Australia Sucks
- Start date
I agree with this post but I also understand the fixation.
Women literally had one job to do....
Caduceus
Heritage
I would like to add that female virginity past age 25 or 30 can cause serious health problems in female bodies.
When the hymen has not been broken and/or the vaginal opening is very tight, the blood that needs to flow out each month during menstruation is partially blocked and has a much smaller opening from which to flow out.
1 girl whos virginity I took was in her mid 20s, and before meeting me for years had terrible cramps and awful pains every month (worse than most girls), and her menstural blood came out in large and ugly "clumps" because her vaginal opening was so tight and narrow. Basically the menstrual blood accumulated like bowels do during constipation, and was only forced out by the weight and sheer force of more blood the next month. Once I had taken her virginity and we had regular sex, she never ever had those sort of problems again, and told me she now had very "normal" monthly periods with blood in a totally normal liquid form, and never had bad cramps or clumps again. Now imagine what would happen if she had stayed a virgin another 5 years in that state ?!
Another example that confirmed this is that I personally knew a woman in her 50s (we did not have sex but she told me personal things) who had to have both her ovaries removed at age 33 because she was still a virgin at that age (she was age 33 in the 1980s and I got to know her 20 years later) and after circa 20 years (her age 13 to 33) of monthly menstruations a lot of trapped blood had been accumulating and had very little space to exit her vagina. This had caused a terrible infection that had spread to both her ovaries, which then needed to be both removed or she would die.
The point I'm trying to make is that women who remain a virgin past a certain age MIGHT have serious health risks long term....unless she's inserting penis sized sex toys, and/or is having pap smear tests and/or is having other health checks that involve a speculum that open her vagina. Both these things however only have started becoming "normal" in the 21st century.
So if your virgin wife doesn't bleed on the first night of sex, it may sometimes be due to her having had gyno visits, pap smear tests, or using sex toys, and not because she actually lied about being a virgin.
Bottom line:
Women's bodies were not designed to remain healthy in a virginal state past a certain age.
When the hymen has not been broken and/or the vaginal opening is very tight, the blood that needs to flow out each month during menstruation is partially blocked and has a much smaller opening from which to flow out.
1 girl whos virginity I took was in her mid 20s, and before meeting me for years had terrible cramps and awful pains every month (worse than most girls), and her menstural blood came out in large and ugly "clumps" because her vaginal opening was so tight and narrow. Basically the menstrual blood accumulated like bowels do during constipation, and was only forced out by the weight and sheer force of more blood the next month. Once I had taken her virginity and we had regular sex, she never ever had those sort of problems again, and told me she now had very "normal" monthly periods with blood in a totally normal liquid form, and never had bad cramps or clumps again. Now imagine what would happen if she had stayed a virgin another 5 years in that state ?!
Another example that confirmed this is that I personally knew a woman in her 50s (we did not have sex but she told me personal things) who had to have both her ovaries removed at age 33 because she was still a virgin at that age (she was age 33 in the 1980s and I got to know her 20 years later) and after circa 20 years (her age 13 to 33) of monthly menstruations a lot of trapped blood had been accumulating and had very little space to exit her vagina. This had caused a terrible infection that had spread to both her ovaries, which then needed to be both removed or she would die.
The point I'm trying to make is that women who remain a virgin past a certain age MIGHT have serious health risks long term....unless she's inserting penis sized sex toys, and/or is having pap smear tests and/or is having other health checks that involve a speculum that open her vagina. Both these things however only have started becoming "normal" in the 21st century.
So if your virgin wife doesn't bleed on the first night of sex, it may sometimes be due to her having had gyno visits, pap smear tests, or using sex toys, and not because she actually lied about being a virgin.
Bottom line:
Women's bodies were not designed to remain healthy in a virginal state past a certain age.
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Shaquilleoatmeal
Protestant
I do agree that if the alcohol content is extremely low and that the alcohol is used to kill bacteria, it’s reasonable. Today however the wine is usually 10% (and sometimes more), which is far too much.
Caduceus
Heritage
Wish I hadn't read this ....
Thanks for the imagery
Most men haven't got a clue about about the medical reality of what long term virginity really means for a woman.
I think it's important to know these things rather than believing in some wishful "pure clean virgin" fantasy.
Whether a girl is a virgin or not, after a certain age she will bleed every month.
Also, these days the medical lobby is strong pushing girls to have regular gynaecological tests as young as age 13-16, which often breaks their hymens in an ugly, unnatural, and traumatic way, long before they even have a chance to have sex. A growing number of teen girls nowadays have their hymen broken by a doctor or nurse using a speculum, rather than from her husband's/boyfriend's penis.
Guys (and often even the girl's father) have no clue.
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Shaquilleoatmeal
Protestant
The girl in her mid 20’s, specifically what age was she?
I assume 21-23 (late college age) is the latest a woman should have her hymen broken?
Caduceus
Heritage
I think she was 25 or 26.
The point is after more than 10 years of menstruating every month, the vaginal opening was just too tight to let all the blood flow out normally. She could not even use tampons as she found it impossible to insert them. Having sex with me for the first time finally fixed this problem for her. A couple of more years as a virgin, would have caused her a serious medical problem, just like other very old virgin I knew having her ovaries removed at age 33, cause of 20 years of semi blocked bloodflow.
Remember a normal fertile woman (virgin or not) bleeds continuously for FIVE days or more each month.
It's a LOT of blood that needs to come out.
Now I'm not saying all virgins will have this problem as the size of all vaginal openings differ from girl to girl (and if they use sex toys, or have invasive gyno exams this problem may be non existent) but virgins at risk for this if they cannot expel all their monthly menstrual blood through a large enough opening for years on end.
So yeah, in my opinion female virginity (or rather non opening of the vagina) should probably not go past a girls late 20s to avoid medical complications with her normal menstrual flow.
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Because of the speculum problem, it doesn't make sense to define virginity by the hymen.
Starting from a View of What is Realistic
^ I'm glad we are having some reality checks injected into this thread. Focusing on virginity as a necessity for marriage seems unfeasible for a man aged 30+, let alone an atheist man aged 30+.
OP speaks of "no risk, no reward", one of my favourite aphorisms, which compels me to ponder this rhetorical question:
What has OP done (especially in the past 7 years since we met) to achieve his goal in Australia?
Hmmm... I guess not that much
I'll now indulge the potential retort "but Australia is full of fatties, feminists, girls who lose their v-card at 16 etc..."
Unless OP is now living in a small country town, this attitude shows an unwillingness to take action locally with non-locals, of which there are many. Australia is having a record number of new arrivals [LINK]! Thousands of young women come to study English or attend university in Australia every month and many of them are still virgins. It would seem to be so much easier to have put in the work here, rather than having to (theoretically) move to a poor country just for the sake of this endeavour.
The idea of going overseas to find this mystical virgin, while simultaneously refusing to take action to approach a few (if any?) of the thousands of young foreign women arriving every month in your own country... this truly doesn't make sense to me personally.
But hey, OP you do you mate! I won't try convincing you otherwise. Only you know what is best for you.
I emphasised the term 'theoretical' above because OP also wrote:
Still, to be clear, I genuinely do wish OP the best
It Takes More than 'Wanting'
>> Note that none of the below is direct advice to anyone in particular. Only the man himself knows what is best for him.
>> It's also worth noting general trends are just that, general; and as individuals we have the power to break through these general trends of the ordinary, if we are willing to be extraordinary.
Being a virgin man doesn't entitle the man to a virgin wife. For a virgin male, it makes sense that he wants a virgin for a wife. But this gives him no more "rights" to a virgin female than anyone else.
Being a non-virgin man and wanting a virgin wife is understandable, given what red-pilled men know about the nature of pair-bonding, satisfaction, and attraction, e.g., women with higher body counts tend to be less satisfied with their present choice, women moreso than men find virgins to be less attractive, etc.
Yet simply having a desire means little if this desire does not motivate a man to take massive action. "I want a virgin but I don't want to face too much rejection".
^ This is the attitude of a man who is unwilling to face discomfort to achieve his goals in life. He can have a 150 IQ and a million dollars but none of that will help in the long term if he is scared to get rejected and is unwilling to confront these fears.
Further, demanding a "virgin wife or nothing", regardless of experience, seems a little extreme. It may be a justified stance in this clown world. It may be a defence mechanism used to protect oneself against the potential outcome of rejection. It may be many things. I am certainly not here to make that judgement.
Indeed, men who take up the Holy Monastic life for honourable reasons have my sincere respect. Going monk mode can be a way of serving God.
Other men who tend to stay home alone in front of their computer, feeling isolated and lonely, will unlikely be shamed or ridiculed into action... but rather, by understanding and encouraging them to be the best versions of themselves that they can be. This includes showing them the way by giving useful advice or encouraging support, rather than simply telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
That said, encouraging comforting delusions for the sake of being supportive is not, in the end, going to help anyone.
We routinely tease women aged over 35 who are delusional because they confused their sexual market value with their wifey market value, because they wanted a "career first" and now their eggs are gone, etc. Men are less likely to be delusional, but (we all) still have our own biases. One of the major myths in the manosphere is that "there is no male wall" or a "man peaks in his late 30s or 40s". This is comforting when you are a manosphere guru preaching to men at that age or younger, saying things like "don't settle, don't get married, take your time, you only get better" etc.
If late 30s to 40s was truly the peak then the most attractive adult women aged 20-25 would NOT typically marry men who are within 1-3 years of their own age. But they do. At least in the modern world.
Source
The Three Questions
Moving on. For anyone seeking a virgin, three questions remain:
1. Do you have the required HMV (Husband Market Value) and the opportunity (access) to hold such a standard?
Simply holding values or having desires does not mean you can get these things. Further, even being eligible does not mean you have access.
2. Do you have the required responsibility, leadership, and unwavering patience to facilitate this relationship?
Having a relationship and then marriage with a young virgin, who is likely to be considerably younger than you, will require VERY HIGH levels of patience and discipline. You may be tested by her relative immaturity on a daily basis for years on end.
3. If not, what have you done to get closer to achieving these goals?
If you don't have the percieved HMV, access, and personal attributes, then let's get cracking!
The Options
It's amazing how much this mirrors my experience here in Australia.
With that in mind here are some options and my experience-based reflections on the realistic avenues of finding a virgin (or at least a reliable, young, low-notch conservative) who could become a wife.
*Disclaimer: my adult church-based experiences are mainly based on an evangelical church. Some Catholic communities seem to be less socially active and integrated in extra-church activities. I have no experience with the Orthodox church. YMMV.
1. The church option
1a. Attend a church from your teens to mid-20s for several years. IMO this is clearly the most reliable option.
Most attractive (physically and personality-wise) church-going women are paired up by their mid-20s. A few will exist in their late 20s, although they will tend to be less physically attractive.
The very few that are still around in their 30s are likely to have some unseen problems such as extreme pickiness or personality issues. Some late 20s church-going women have unrealistic standards and highly inflated versions of themselves.
1b. This can also work if you are in your 30s and you moved location or changed churches. However you must (a) be well integrated into the community after spending at least 1-2 years of biweekly attendance at both Sunday service and bible study, AND (b) have taken and continue to take considerable action to reduce the perceived age gap.
My personal experience: I've attended an evangelical church for several years. It is a mix of internationals and locals, and is supported by the flow of young cohorts. I have seen many couples pair up through the church. It's a great community and I respect the fact that it takes so many years to be fully "accepted" even if it was frustrating to me at times. The key, however, is that most couples that got married had been to the same church for several YEARS before they even started dating.
I ended up marrying a woman outside of that particular church, but I was able to see how it could be possible to "restart" in a new church at 30+. There were several early-to-mid 20s women who seemed attracted to me, including a couple who were almost certainly virgins. However, this was ONLY possible because of the two factors mentioned above: (a) consistent attendance and (b) looking younger than my age, which was achieved through a combination of genetic blueprints and years of dedication to health, vitality, energy, etc.
Regarding point (b) - staying young
In part 3 of this post [LINK] I described why men who want a younger wife can benefit by taking action to reduce the perceived age gap.
The importance of this approach seems to be underestimated or dismissed by some members. Such sentiments have been expressed in other threads [LINK] at CIK.
I have also read of men online saying things like "I just need more money/status/career progress and then I can attract more women". This mainly applies to younger men, however I've seen a sentiment on RVF/CIK in self-reported "older" guys.
By contrast, I see fewer older men asking how to reduce the perceived age gap between them and their ideal mates, and how their perceived youthfulness and internal vigor impacts their potential success.
Later, I'll craft a separate post about the pros/cons of age gaps and the various strategies for staying youthful for men who are keen to put in effort to meet and court a younger wife.
2. The local secular option
2a. Cold approach on the street or at a university/college.
2b. Screen hard online and steel yourself emotionally. Protocols are here:
Navigating Online Dating for Christian Men [LINK]. After years and years of refusing to do online dating because I knew I could pull way better quality through cold approaching and other in-person interactions, I eventually met my wife online because it was extremely frustrating trying to approach women with masks on. So, it is possible to have success that way, however it can be extremely draining and your experience will be highly contingent upon the factors described in the protocol, namely your location, appearance, age, screening and social skills. As I wrote:
2c. Get involved in a sports/hobby club with young fit women around.
My personal experience with 2a - cold approach:
Before my wife, I had a long relationship with a young woman who was, relative to my own looks/status, very physically attractive. I met her through cold approach in a shopping centre. Initially she was not that interested but in time grew very attached. Now, she was a virgin in her early 20s and I was mid 30s. She was not poor. So she didn't need money from me. Of her friends that had BFs, all the BFs were within 1-3 years of their age. So our age gap was the clear outlier of relationships in her social circle.
On the 3rd date, she asked me how old I was, and I told her the truth. She was shocked, but was already quite attracted and invested, so it didn't stop things escalating. Later, she told me that if she knew my age at the very start she would have disqualified me instantly. I don't doubt it. One lesson from this follows:
(i) the only way this relationship ever happened, was because I put in a huge amount of effort into not just learning how to approach and attract girls, and maintain a relationship, but also, how to take care of myself both internally and externally. Genetics help a lot, but so does everything else - sleep, exercise, drinking water, skincare, diet, etc.
Ultimately the relationship didn't work out for several reasons, which taught me some more lessons. Two of these are as follows:
(ii) it is possible to have an age gap that is too large. This reflection is backed up by considerable amount of data [LINK] across countries that reveals large age gaps increase the risk of divorce (albeit this research is heavily biased towards modern Western sources). This could be related to many reasons which I'll have to cover in another post.
For me, well my EX was nowhere near close to being ready for kids. She was heading towards her mid 20s, a generally glorious time for a woman, and she was starting to see her true potential in many areas of life. She wanted to travel more. I was satisfied with my travels. For me at the time, 40-45 was on the horizon, and without children in the picture (whereas my now-wife has blessed me with children).
(iii) Another critical lesson for me was that taking on a young woman, especially a virgin for a girlfriend and potential wife entails VERY HIGH LEVELS of responsibility, patience, and daily leadership. This is a clear downside for many men who get naturally frustrated when dealing with such immaturity relative to their own age.
Hence the acceptance of trade-offs is a necessary step in the whole process of finding and selecting any woman.
3. The international move
3a. Move overseas permanently and integrate with the local community, attend the local church, learn the local language etc.
This is a feasible option IF you have other motivations and reasons to live in that area (cultural, financial, lifestyle, linguistic, etc). Without such reasons, you are putting immense pressure on yourself and every woman you meet, subconsciously or not. You have a decent chance to meet a traditional woman this way, but finding a reliable virgin without being involved in a religious community makes this task far, far harder.
3b. Travel overseas for weeks/months, start a relationship by the chance meeting of an amazing virgin girl who also has all the other characteristics of a desirable wife, then continue things long distance for sometime until one of you moves countries. This is technically possible to achieve but highly challenging and thus unlikely.
3c. Go online and start chatting with girls in Peru, Ethiopia, etc. Not recommended for anything over 2 weeks before arriving because all your efforts can be for nothing when you arrive and discover she was using an AI video filter.
And on that note, I must say for all our sake, please never ever EVER EVER send money to a woman you have never met.
3d. Use money to "buy a wife" overseas, and stay there or bring her back home. This is possibly the worst option. You will be seen as a walking ATM and means to an end.
Being the breadwinner is not a problem per se; what can create problems is a reliance on material provision to sustain respect, attraction, and attachment. Barring exceptional circumstances, this will not work.
A reliance on the external violates a key premise of red pill relationships 101 - she must respect you. So, it pays to beware of overreliance on attraction proxies for generating genuine attraction to you.
Absolutely - social status and monetary wealth will generate interest in the short term, and are highly correlated with mating success in the longer-term. However, ongoing respect cannot be bought. If this premise was false you wouldn't hear about rich and famous men getting dumped. You also wouldn't hear about long-married men, who have very successful careers, complaining about their wives incessant nagging, demands, emotional abuse etc.
The Value of Virginity and Youth
One last comment: Virginity is an important characteristic in the ideal woman. I want to wholeheartedly validate that belief. It makes sense on biological, cultural and sexual levels.
It is just not a standard that any man aged 30/40+, especially an athiest, can easily demand.
Now onto the 'experience' research
This research is 10+ years old so the stats must be even worse now in terms of the numbers of virgins getting married
Other studies on sexual experience and marital satisfaction:
> https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-sexual-history-affect-marital-happiness
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00444.x
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-008-9497-0
And then, of course, there is the Word:
Conclusion
Let's not pretend that virginity isn't valuable, as this can be a cognitive trick to rationalise our lack of choice and devalue what we can't get. But also let's not delude ourselves into thinking that only a virgin wife will make us happy and lead to a lasting marriage, as this may be a rationalisation that stops us taking action to achieve our deepest life goals (including having a family). Virginity can become a false idol that distracts us from more important things.
Above all, women initiate the vast majority of breakups and divorces, so men should pay particular attention to women's behaviour and her history. A woman's sexual history is an important part of that. However having a couple of relationships before you is unlikely to be a huge factor that determines the relative success/failure of your bond. Having 10+ casual partners will have a much bigger impact, as will her social media usage and experience of FOMO, influence of her friends, her parents' relationship, her general impulse control, etc. These things add up together, and by using this combined knowledge you can make a more informed choice.
I hope this post helps some men of any age, especially those who are seeking a younger, conservative wife and are considering some different approaches, ideas, and action steps. Feedback welcome as always.
^ I'm glad we are having some reality checks injected into this thread. Focusing on virginity as a necessity for marriage seems unfeasible for a man aged 30+, let alone an atheist man aged 30+.
OP speaks of "no risk, no reward", one of my favourite aphorisms, which compels me to ponder this rhetorical question:
What has OP done (especially in the past 7 years since we met) to achieve his goal in Australia?
OP said:
Hmmm... I guess not that much
I'll now indulge the potential retort "but Australia is full of fatties, feminists, girls who lose their v-card at 16 etc..."
Unless OP is now living in a small country town, this attitude shows an unwillingness to take action locally with non-locals, of which there are many. Australia is having a record number of new arrivals [LINK]! Thousands of young women come to study English or attend university in Australia every month and many of them are still virgins. It would seem to be so much easier to have put in the work here, rather than having to (theoretically) move to a poor country just for the sake of this endeavour.
The idea of going overseas to find this mystical virgin, while simultaneously refusing to take action to approach a few (if any?) of the thousands of young foreign women arriving every month in your own country... this truly doesn't make sense to me personally.
But hey, OP you do you mate! I won't try convincing you otherwise. Only you know what is best for you.
I emphasised the term 'theoretical' above because OP also wrote:
^ This statement is, I think, a more accurate reflection of the nature of the thread - it is really just an "intellectual exercise". It's quite interesting, hence my long post here. But seems to be only an exchange of ideas, rather than a potential driver of any real behaviour change.
Still, to be clear, I genuinely do wish OP the best
It Takes More than 'Wanting'
>> Note that none of the below is direct advice to anyone in particular. Only the man himself knows what is best for him.
>> It's also worth noting general trends are just that, general; and as individuals we have the power to break through these general trends of the ordinary, if we are willing to be extraordinary.
Being a virgin man doesn't entitle the man to a virgin wife. For a virgin male, it makes sense that he wants a virgin for a wife. But this gives him no more "rights" to a virgin female than anyone else.
Being a non-virgin man and wanting a virgin wife is understandable, given what red-pilled men know about the nature of pair-bonding, satisfaction, and attraction, e.g., women with higher body counts tend to be less satisfied with their present choice, women moreso than men find virgins to be less attractive, etc.
Yet simply having a desire means little if this desire does not motivate a man to take massive action. "I want a virgin but I don't want to face too much rejection".
^ This is the attitude of a man who is unwilling to face discomfort to achieve his goals in life. He can have a 150 IQ and a million dollars but none of that will help in the long term if he is scared to get rejected and is unwilling to confront these fears.
Further, demanding a "virgin wife or nothing", regardless of experience, seems a little extreme. It may be a justified stance in this clown world. It may be a defence mechanism used to protect oneself against the potential outcome of rejection. It may be many things. I am certainly not here to make that judgement.
Indeed, men who take up the Holy Monastic life for honourable reasons have my sincere respect. Going monk mode can be a way of serving God.
Other men who tend to stay home alone in front of their computer, feeling isolated and lonely, will unlikely be shamed or ridiculed into action... but rather, by understanding and encouraging them to be the best versions of themselves that they can be. This includes showing them the way by giving useful advice or encouraging support, rather than simply telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
That said, encouraging comforting delusions for the sake of being supportive is not, in the end, going to help anyone.
We routinely tease women aged over 35 who are delusional because they confused their sexual market value with their wifey market value, because they wanted a "career first" and now their eggs are gone, etc. Men are less likely to be delusional, but (we all) still have our own biases. One of the major myths in the manosphere is that "there is no male wall" or a "man peaks in his late 30s or 40s". This is comforting when you are a manosphere guru preaching to men at that age or younger, saying things like "don't settle, don't get married, take your time, you only get better" etc.
If late 30s to 40s was truly the peak then the most attractive adult women aged 20-25 would NOT typically marry men who are within 1-3 years of their own age. But they do. At least in the modern world.
Source
The Three Questions
Moving on. For anyone seeking a virgin, three questions remain:
1. Do you have the required HMV (Husband Market Value) and the opportunity (access) to hold such a standard?
Simply holding values or having desires does not mean you can get these things. Further, even being eligible does not mean you have access.
2. Do you have the required responsibility, leadership, and unwavering patience to facilitate this relationship?
Having a relationship and then marriage with a young virgin, who is likely to be considerably younger than you, will require VERY HIGH levels of patience and discipline. You may be tested by her relative immaturity on a daily basis for years on end.
3. If not, what have you done to get closer to achieving these goals?
If you don't have the percieved HMV, access, and personal attributes, then let's get cracking!
The Options
It's amazing how much this mirrors my experience here in Australia.
With that in mind here are some options and my experience-based reflections on the realistic avenues of finding a virgin (or at least a reliable, young, low-notch conservative) who could become a wife.
*Disclaimer: my adult church-based experiences are mainly based on an evangelical church. Some Catholic communities seem to be less socially active and integrated in extra-church activities. I have no experience with the Orthodox church. YMMV.
1. The church option
1a. Attend a church from your teens to mid-20s for several years. IMO this is clearly the most reliable option.
Most attractive (physically and personality-wise) church-going women are paired up by their mid-20s. A few will exist in their late 20s, although they will tend to be less physically attractive.
The very few that are still around in their 30s are likely to have some unseen problems such as extreme pickiness or personality issues. Some late 20s church-going women have unrealistic standards and highly inflated versions of themselves.
1b. This can also work if you are in your 30s and you moved location or changed churches. However you must (a) be well integrated into the community after spending at least 1-2 years of biweekly attendance at both Sunday service and bible study, AND (b) have taken and continue to take considerable action to reduce the perceived age gap.
My personal experience: I've attended an evangelical church for several years. It is a mix of internationals and locals, and is supported by the flow of young cohorts. I have seen many couples pair up through the church. It's a great community and I respect the fact that it takes so many years to be fully "accepted" even if it was frustrating to me at times. The key, however, is that most couples that got married had been to the same church for several YEARS before they even started dating.
I ended up marrying a woman outside of that particular church, but I was able to see how it could be possible to "restart" in a new church at 30+. There were several early-to-mid 20s women who seemed attracted to me, including a couple who were almost certainly virgins. However, this was ONLY possible because of the two factors mentioned above: (a) consistent attendance and (b) looking younger than my age, which was achieved through a combination of genetic blueprints and years of dedication to health, vitality, energy, etc.
Regarding point (b) - staying young
In part 3 of this post [LINK] I described why men who want a younger wife can benefit by taking action to reduce the perceived age gap.
The importance of this approach seems to be underestimated or dismissed by some members. Such sentiments have been expressed in other threads [LINK] at CIK.
I have also read of men online saying things like "I just need more money/status/career progress and then I can attract more women". This mainly applies to younger men, however I've seen a sentiment on RVF/CIK in self-reported "older" guys.
By contrast, I see fewer older men asking how to reduce the perceived age gap between them and their ideal mates, and how their perceived youthfulness and internal vigor impacts their potential success.
Later, I'll craft a separate post about the pros/cons of age gaps and the various strategies for staying youthful for men who are keen to put in effort to meet and court a younger wife.
2. The local secular option
2a. Cold approach on the street or at a university/college.
2b. Screen hard online and steel yourself emotionally. Protocols are here:
Navigating Online Dating for Christian Men [LINK]. After years and years of refusing to do online dating because I knew I could pull way better quality through cold approaching and other in-person interactions, I eventually met my wife online because it was extremely frustrating trying to approach women with masks on. So, it is possible to have success that way, however it can be extremely draining and your experience will be highly contingent upon the factors described in the protocol, namely your location, appearance, age, screening and social skills. As I wrote:
2c. Get involved in a sports/hobby club with young fit women around.
My personal experience with 2a - cold approach:
Before my wife, I had a long relationship with a young woman who was, relative to my own looks/status, very physically attractive. I met her through cold approach in a shopping centre. Initially she was not that interested but in time grew very attached. Now, she was a virgin in her early 20s and I was mid 30s. She was not poor. So she didn't need money from me. Of her friends that had BFs, all the BFs were within 1-3 years of their age. So our age gap was the clear outlier of relationships in her social circle.
On the 3rd date, she asked me how old I was, and I told her the truth. She was shocked, but was already quite attracted and invested, so it didn't stop things escalating. Later, she told me that if she knew my age at the very start she would have disqualified me instantly. I don't doubt it. One lesson from this follows:
(i) the only way this relationship ever happened, was because I put in a huge amount of effort into not just learning how to approach and attract girls, and maintain a relationship, but also, how to take care of myself both internally and externally. Genetics help a lot, but so does everything else - sleep, exercise, drinking water, skincare, diet, etc.
Ultimately the relationship didn't work out for several reasons, which taught me some more lessons. Two of these are as follows:
(ii) it is possible to have an age gap that is too large. This reflection is backed up by considerable amount of data [LINK] across countries that reveals large age gaps increase the risk of divorce (albeit this research is heavily biased towards modern Western sources). This could be related to many reasons which I'll have to cover in another post.
For me, well my EX was nowhere near close to being ready for kids. She was heading towards her mid 20s, a generally glorious time for a woman, and she was starting to see her true potential in many areas of life. She wanted to travel more. I was satisfied with my travels. For me at the time, 40-45 was on the horizon, and without children in the picture (whereas my now-wife has blessed me with children).
(iii) Another critical lesson for me was that taking on a young woman, especially a virgin for a girlfriend and potential wife entails VERY HIGH LEVELS of responsibility, patience, and daily leadership. This is a clear downside for many men who get naturally frustrated when dealing with such immaturity relative to their own age.
Hence the acceptance of trade-offs is a necessary step in the whole process of finding and selecting any woman.
3. The international move
3a. Move overseas permanently and integrate with the local community, attend the local church, learn the local language etc.
This is a feasible option IF you have other motivations and reasons to live in that area (cultural, financial, lifestyle, linguistic, etc). Without such reasons, you are putting immense pressure on yourself and every woman you meet, subconsciously or not. You have a decent chance to meet a traditional woman this way, but finding a reliable virgin without being involved in a religious community makes this task far, far harder.
3b. Travel overseas for weeks/months, start a relationship by the chance meeting of an amazing virgin girl who also has all the other characteristics of a desirable wife, then continue things long distance for sometime until one of you moves countries. This is technically possible to achieve but highly challenging and thus unlikely.
3c. Go online and start chatting with girls in Peru, Ethiopia, etc. Not recommended for anything over 2 weeks before arriving because all your efforts can be for nothing when you arrive and discover she was using an AI video filter.
And on that note, I must say for all our sake, please never ever EVER EVER send money to a woman you have never met.
3d. Use money to "buy a wife" overseas, and stay there or bring her back home. This is possibly the worst option. You will be seen as a walking ATM and means to an end.
Being the breadwinner is not a problem per se; what can create problems is a reliance on material provision to sustain respect, attraction, and attachment. Barring exceptional circumstances, this will not work.
A reliance on the external violates a key premise of red pill relationships 101 - she must respect you. So, it pays to beware of overreliance on attraction proxies for generating genuine attraction to you.
Absolutely - social status and monetary wealth will generate interest in the short term, and are highly correlated with mating success in the longer-term. However, ongoing respect cannot be bought. If this premise was false you wouldn't hear about rich and famous men getting dumped. You also wouldn't hear about long-married men, who have very successful careers, complaining about their wives incessant nagging, demands, emotional abuse etc.
The Value of Virginity and Youth
One last comment: Virginity is an important characteristic in the ideal woman. I want to wholeheartedly validate that belief. It makes sense on biological, cultural and sexual levels.
It is just not a standard that any man aged 30/40+, especially an athiest, can easily demand.
Now onto the 'experience' research
This research is 10+ years old so the stats must be even worse now in terms of the numbers of virgins getting married
Other studies on sexual experience and marital satisfaction:
> https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-sexual-history-affect-marital-happiness
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00444.x
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-008-9497-0
And then, of course, there is the Word:
Conclusion
Let's not pretend that virginity isn't valuable, as this can be a cognitive trick to rationalise our lack of choice and devalue what we can't get. But also let's not delude ourselves into thinking that only a virgin wife will make us happy and lead to a lasting marriage, as this may be a rationalisation that stops us taking action to achieve our deepest life goals (including having a family). Virginity can become a false idol that distracts us from more important things.
Above all, women initiate the vast majority of breakups and divorces, so men should pay particular attention to women's behaviour and her history. A woman's sexual history is an important part of that. However having a couple of relationships before you is unlikely to be a huge factor that determines the relative success/failure of your bond. Having 10+ casual partners will have a much bigger impact, as will her social media usage and experience of FOMO, influence of her friends, her parents' relationship, her general impulse control, etc. These things add up together, and by using this combined knowledge you can make a more informed choice.
I hope this post helps some men of any age, especially those who are seeking a younger, conservative wife and are considering some different approaches, ideas, and action steps. Feedback welcome as always.
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It's not a myth so much as it is a strategy for a world where women are largely (not always) told to do other things when their value is highest and men would like to be with them, stick with them, or marry them (earlier ages). I of course agree that if you have a good match or compatibility with someone, don't move on "just because". I think what's going on most of the time is more along the lines of "Well, since women aren't prioritizing marriage when they actually have value, just work on yourself since it'll probably take a while to get lucky with a sweet spot of their rapidly closing window."
I think the days of using it as a binary are gone because you'll simply be limiting the pool so much you'll end up accepting other bad things potentially if you put so much weight on just virginity.
I think virginity vs promiscuity is on a sliding scale that either gives or takes away points on an overall score.
Would I accept an average looking girl with average intelligence from a slightly troubled family because she was a virgin? Maaaybe, because virginity adds a good bit to her score.
Would I accept a beautiful, healthy, intelligent girl from a family that could contribute to our future family's resources even though she has had several partners? I think so, as long as she doesn't seem mentally confused and damaged from those experiences.
My parents were together from their teens, married at 21 and had me at 23. Yet my mom has been a relative nightmare for my dad for the last 10 years in their 50s/60s, and wasn't all that pleasant to him even when I was a child and teen. There's a lot to consider, not just virginity.
I think virginity vs promiscuity is on a sliding scale that either gives or takes away points on an overall score.
Would I accept an average looking girl with average intelligence from a slightly troubled family because she was a virgin? Maaaybe, because virginity adds a good bit to her score.
Would I accept a beautiful, healthy, intelligent girl from a family that could contribute to our future family's resources even though she has had several partners? I think so, as long as she doesn't seem mentally confused and damaged from those experiences.
My parents were together from their teens, married at 21 and had me at 23. Yet my mom has been a relative nightmare for my dad for the last 10 years in their 50s/60s, and wasn't all that pleasant to him even when I was a child and teen. There's a lot to consider, not just virginity.
Not wanting to marry a woman because she is not virgin is not the same as not forgiving her for her lack of virginity. Are we not allowed to have preferences for who we marry?
[
But as I said... What is desired and what is attainable are often not the same.
Yes of course.
But as I said... What is desired and what is attainable are often not the same.
What you say is true but it is also irrelevant as only young women are worth marrying. Why would I consider marrying a woman who is 25 or older?
Besides the is is just another reason women should get married young.
Starting from a View of What is Realistic
^ I'm glad we are having some reality checks injected into this thread. Focusing on virginity as a necessity for marriage seems unfeasible for a man aged 30+, let alone an atheist man aged 30+.
OP speaks of "no risk, no reward", one of my favourite aphorisms, which compels me to ponder this rhetorical question:
What has OP done (especially in the past 7 years since we met) to achieve his goal in Australia?
Hmmm... I guess not that much
I'll now indulge the potential retort "but Australia is full of fatties, feminists, girls who lose their v-card at 16 etc..."
Unless OP is now living in a small country town, this attitude shows an unwillingness to take action locally with non-locals, of which there are many. Australia is having a record number of new arrivals [LINK]! Thousands of young women come to study English or attend university in Australia every month and many of them are still virgins. It would seem to be so much easier to have put in the work here, rather than having to (theoretically) move to a poor country just for the sake of this endeavour.
The idea of going overseas to find this mystical virgin, while simultaneously refusing to take action to approach a few (if any?) of the thousands of young foreign women arriving every month in your own country... this truly doesn't make sense to me personally.
But hey, OP you do you mate! I won't try convincing you otherwise. Only you know what is best for you.
I emphasised the term 'theoretical' above because OP also wrote:
^ This statement is, I think, a more accurate reflection of the nature of the thread - it is really just an "intellectual exercise". It's quite interesting, hence my long post here. But seems to be only an exchange of ideas, rather than a potential driver of any real behaviour change.
Still, to be clear, I genuinely do wish OP the best
It Takes More than 'Wanting'
>> Note that none of the below is direct advice to anyone in particular. Only the man himself knows what is best for him.
>> It's also worth noting general trends are just that, general; and as individuals we have the power to break through these general trends of the ordinary, if we are willing to be extraordinary.
Being a virgin man doesn't entitle the man to a virgin wife. For a virgin male, it makes sense that he wants a virgin for a wife. But this gives him no more "rights" to a virgin female than anyone else.
Being a non-virgin man and wanting a virgin wife is understandable, given what red-pilled men know about the nature of pair-bonding, satisfaction, and attraction, e.g., women with higher body counts tend to be less satisfied with their present choice, women moreso than men find virgins to be less attractive, etc.
Yet simply having a desire means little if this desire does not motivate a man to take massive action. "I want a virgin but I don't want to face too much rejection".
^ This is the attitude of a man who is unwilling to face discomfort to achieve his goals in life. He can have a 150 IQ and a million dollars but none of that will help in the long term if he is scared to get rejected and is unwilling to confront these fears.
Further, demanding a "virgin wife or nothing", regardless of experience, seems a little extreme. It may be a justified stance in this clown world. It may be a defence mechanism used to protect oneself against the potential outcome of rejection. It may be many things. I am certainly not here to make that judgement.
Indeed, men who take up the Holy Monastic life for honourable reasons have my sincere respect. Going monk mode can be a way of serving God.
Other men who tend to stay home alone in front of their computer, feeling isolated and lonely, will unlikely be shamed or ridiculed into action... but rather, by understanding and encouraging them to be the best versions of themselves that they can be. This includes showing them the way by giving useful advice or encouraging support, rather than simply telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
That said, encouraging comforting delusions for the sake of being supportive is not, in the end, going to help anyone.
We routinely tease women aged over 35 who are delusional because they confused their sexual market value with their wifey market value, because they wanted a "career first" and now their eggs are gone, etc. Men are less likely to be delusional, but (we all) still have our own biases. One of the major myths in the manosphere is that "there is no male wall" or a "man peaks in his late 30s or 40s". This is comforting when you are a manosphere guru preaching to men at that age or younger, saying things like "don't settle, don't get married, take your time, you only get better" etc.
If late 30s to 40s was truly the peak then the most attractive adult women aged 20-25 would NOT typically marry men who are within 1-3 years of their own age. But they do. At least in the modern world.
Source
The Three Questions
Moving on. For anyone seeking a virgin, three questions remain:
1. Do you have the required HMV (Husband Market Value) and the opportunity (access) to hold such a standard?
Simply holding values or having desires does not mean you can get these things. Further, even being eligible does not mean you have access.
2. Do you have the required responsibility, leadership, and unwavering patience to facilitate this relationship?
Having a relationship and then marriage with a young virgin, who is likely to be considerably younger than you, will require VERY HIGH levels of patience and discipline. You may be tested by her relative immaturity on a daily basis for years on end.
3. If not, what have you done to get closer to achieving these goals?
If you don't have the percieved HMV, access, and personal attributes, then let's get cracking!
The Options
It's amazing how much this mirrors my experience here in Australia.
With that in mind here are some options and my experience-based reflections on the realistic avenues of finding a virgin (or at least a reliable, young, low-notch conservative) who could become a wife.
*Disclaimer: my adult church-based experiences are mainly based on an evangelical church. Some Catholic communities seem to be less socially active and integrated in extra-church activities. I have no experience with the Orthodox church. YMMV.
1. The church option
1a. Attend a church from your teens to mid-20s for several years. IMO this is clearly the most reliable option.
Most attractive (physically and personality-wise) church-going women are paired up by their mid-20s. A few will exist in their late 20s, although they will tend to be less physically attractive.
The very few that are still around in their 30s are likely to have some unseen problems such as extreme pickiness or personality issues. Some late 20s church-going women have unrealistic standards and highly inflated versions of themselves.
1b. This can also work if you are in your 30s and you moved location or changed churches. However you must (a) be well integrated into the community after spending at least 1-2 years of biweekly attendance at both Sunday service and bible study, AND (b) have taken and continue to take considerable action to reduce the perceived age gap.
My personal experience: I've attended an evangelical church for several years. It is a mix of internationals and locals, and is supported by the flow of young cohorts. I have seen many couples pair up through the church. It's a great community and I respect the fact that it takes so many years to be fully "accepted" even if it was frustrating to me at times. The key, however, is that most couples that got married had been to the same church for several YEARS before they even started dating.
I ended up marrying a woman outside of that particular church, but I was able to see how it could be possible to "restart" in a new church at 30+. There were several early-to-mid 20s women who seemed attracted to me, including a couple who were almost certainly virgins. However, this was ONLY possible because of the two factors mentioned above: (a) consistent attendance and (b) looking younger than my age, which was achieved through a combination of genetic blueprints and years of dedication to health, vitality, energy, etc.
Regarding point (b) - staying young
In part 3 of this post [LINK] I described why men who want a younger wife can benefit by taking action to reduce the perceived age gap.
The importance of this approach seems to be underestimated or dismissed by some members. Such sentiments have been expressed in other threads [LINK] at CIK.
I have also read of men online saying things like "I just need more money/status/career progress and then I can attract more women". This mainly applies to younger men, however I've seen a sentiment on RVF/CIK in self-reported "older" guys.
By contrast, I see fewer older men asking how to reduce the perceived age gap between them and their ideal mates, and how their perceived youthfulness and internal vigor impacts their potential success.
Later, I'll craft a separate post about the pros/cons of age gaps and the various strategies for staying youthful for men who are keen to put in effort to meet and court a younger wife.
2. The local secular option
2a. Cold approach on the street or at a university/college.
2b. Screen hard online and steel yourself emotionally. Protocols are here:
Navigating Online Dating for Christian Men [LINK]. After years and years of refusing to do online dating because I knew I could pull way better quality through cold approaching and other in-person interactions, I eventually met my wife online because it was extremely frustrating trying to approach women with masks on. So, it is possible to have success that way, however it can be extremely draining and your experience will be highly contingent upon the factors described in the protocol, namely your location, appearance, age, screening and social skills. As I wrote:
2c. Get involved in a sports/hobby club with young fit women around.
My personal experience with 2a - cold approach:
Before my wife, I had a long relationship with a young woman who was, relative to my own looks/status, very physically attractive. I met her through cold approach in a shopping centre. Initially she was not that interested but in time grew very attached. Now, she was a virgin in her early 20s and I was mid 30s. She was not poor. So she didn't need money from me. Of her friends that had BFs, all the BFs were within 1-3 years of their age. So our age gap was the clear outlier of relationships in her social circle.
On the 3rd date, she asked me how old I was, and I told her the truth. She was shocked, but was already quite attracted and invested, so it didn't stop things escalating. Later, she told me that if she knew my age at the very start she would have disqualified me instantly. I don't doubt it. One lesson from this follows:
(i) the only way this relationship ever happened, was because I put in a huge amount of effort into not just learning how to approach and attract girls, and maintain a relationship, but also, how to take care of myself both internally and externally. Genetics help a lot, but so does everything else - sleep, exercise, drinking water, skincare, diet, etc.
Ultimately the relationship didn't work out for several reasons, which taught me some more lessons. Two of these are as follows:
(ii) it is possible to have an age gap that is too large. This reflection is backed up by considerable amount of data [LINK] across countries that reveals large age gaps increase the risk of divorce (albeit this research is heavily biased towards modern Western sources). This could be related to many reasons which I'll have to cover in another post.
For me, well my EX was nowhere near close to being ready for kids. She was heading towards her mid 20s, a generally glorious time for a woman, and she was starting to see her true potential in many areas of life. She wanted to travel more. I was satisfied with my travels. For me at the time, 40-45 was on the horizon, and without children in the picture (whereas my now-wife has blessed me with children).
(iii) Another critical lesson for me was that taking on a young woman, especially a virgin for a girlfriend and potential wife entails VERY HIGH LEVELS of responsibility, patience, and daily leadership. This is a clear downside for many men who get naturally frustrated when dealing with such immaturity relative to their own age.
Hence the acceptance of trade-offs is a necessary step in the whole process of finding and selecting any woman.
3. The international move
3a. Move overseas permanently and integrate with the local community, attend the local church, learn the local language etc.
This is a feasible option IF you have other motivations and reasons to live in that area (cultural, financial, lifestyle, linguistic, etc). Without such reasons, you are putting immense pressure on yourself and every woman you meet, subconsciously or not. You have a decent chance to meet a traditional woman this way, but finding a reliable virgin without being involved in a religious community makes this task far, far harder.
3b. Travel overseas for weeks/months, start a relationship by the chance meeting of an amazing virgin girl who also has all the other characteristics of a desirable wife, then continue things long distance for sometime until one of you moves countries. This is technically possible to achieve but highly challenging and thus unlikely.
3c. Go online and start chatting with girls in Peru, Ethiopia, etc. Not recommended for anything over 2 weeks before arriving because all your efforts can be for nothing when you arrive and discover she was using an AI video filter.
And on that note, I must say for all our sake, please never ever EVER EVER send money to a woman you have never met.
3d. Use money to "buy a wife" overseas, and stay there or bring her back home. This is possibly the worst option. You will be seen as a walking ATM and means to an end.
Being the breadwinner is not a problem per se; what can create problems is a reliance on material provision to sustain respect, attraction, and attachment. Barring exceptional circumstances, this will not work.
A reliance on the external violates a key premise of red pill relationships 101 - she must respect you. So, it pays to beware of overreliance on attraction proxies for generating genuine attraction to you.
Absolutely - social status and monetary wealth will generate interest in the short term, and are highly correlated with mating success in the longer-term. However, ongoing respect cannot be bought. If this premise was false you wouldn't hear about rich and famous men getting dumped. You also wouldn't hear about long-married men, who have very successful careers, complaining about their wives incessant nagging, demands, emotional abuse etc.
The Value of Virginity and Youth
One last comment: Virginity is an important characteristic in the ideal woman. I want to wholeheartedly validate that belief. It makes sense on biological, cultural and sexual levels.
It is just not a standard that any man aged 30/40+, especially an athiest, can easily demand.
Now onto the 'experience' research
This research is 10+ years old so the stats must be even worse now in terms of the numbers of virgins getting married
Other studies on sexual experience and marital satisfaction:
> https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-sexual-history-affect-marital-happiness
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00444.x
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-008-9497-0
And then, of course, there is the Word:
Conclusion
Let's not pretend that virginity isn't valuable, as this can be a cognitive trick to rationalise our lack of choice and devalue what we can't get. But also let's not delude ourselves into thinking that only a virgin wife will make us happy and lead to a lasting marriage, as this may be a rationalisation that stops us taking action to achieve our deepest life goals (including having a family). Virginity can become a false idol that distracts us from more important things.
Above all, women initiate the vast majority of breakups and divorces, so men should pay particular attention to women's behaviour and her history. A woman's sexual history is an important part of that. However having a couple of relationships before you is unlikely to be a huge factor that determines the relative success/failure of your bond. Having 10+ casual partners will have a much bigger impact, as will her social media usage and experience of FOMO, influence of her friends, her parents' relationship, her general impulse control, etc. These things add up together, and by using this combined knowledge you can make a more informed choice.
I hope this post helps some men of any age, especially those who are seeking a younger, conservative wife and are considering some different approaches, ideas, and action steps. Feedback welcome as always.
Let me just rebut some of your points (in no particular order).
1) I have (and continue) to take action trying to meet foreign women in Australia. It was just an incorrect assumption on your part that I am not taking action.
Most of that action comes in the form of cold approaching with the occasional social circle and work situations thrown into the mix. Despite the fact that I live in an international city (Sydney) with many foreigners on a red pill forum such as this we all understand (or should at least) how the dynamics change when a foreign woman arrives in a western country. SMV is always a relative concept based on what other options are available around you and supply and demand, etc. A woman from Brazil, Colombia, Belarus, Ukraine, Argentina, Italy etc that would be considered a 6 in her own country will generally be considered a 7 or even 7.5 in Australia.
Meanwhile in Australia as a man if you are considered to have an SMV of 5 in a lot of other countries you would be considered a 6 or a 6.5. Generally as a man you can get a 1 - 2 point arbitrage off the bat by going to a country where the dating market is more favorable. That is a huge difference. I have seen first hand for example when I was in Colombia I could get dates with young attractive women whereas in Australia most of the Colombian girls I approached I struggled to get dates with them. The mere fact these foreign women are in Australia where they no longer need your money as much and they are getting thirsted over by higher value men means that they are harder to obtain. In the old Rooshv forum Roosh originally even spoke about the busted dudes test. I know you are well traveled and have a solid understanding of game, so this point should be fairly obvious to you to the extent that I wonder if you are being intellectually dishonest or have ulterior motives by even raising such a nonsensical argument.
Also there is self selection bias. A foreign woman that leaves her family to go alone and live in a foreign country for a few years is far less likely to be a traditional/conservative girl. So to find a more traditional girl its best to go to the source.
Compounding all of the above problems is the tendency of certain foreigner groups to stick to their own community when arriving in a foreign country and there are various reasons for this which I do not need to go into right now. But its quite common for example for a Colombian or Brazilian or Italian student/backpacker, etc arriving in Australia to already have friends living here before she even arrives in the country. Then she arrives in Australia and lives in a share house where her friends are already living and guys from her own country are also living there. These guys plus male friends of her friends have social pre-selection and thus have a huge head start over you. I have met girls who on their first week of arriving in Australia already had their social calendar filled up with multiple invitations to barbecues, beach parties, etc. For this reason I have noticed that for example a Brazilian girl living in Sydney is far more likely to have a Brazilian boyfriend than an Australian boyfriend. And this is to say nothing of the women arriving in Australia who already have boyfriends (either back home or that they bring with them to Australia).
2) As you yourself noted age gap acceptance is often higher in non-western countries. In my personal experience in many Latin American countries age gap acceptance can go up to 20 years if the man is in good shape, has money, is intelligent and looks younger than his age and has sufficient local language fluency, etc. Generally when it starts getting to 25 or 30 year age gaps its usually a sugar daddy type relationship but 20 years is still socially acceptable. Now it doesn't happen often enough to impact the statistics (hence why it wasn't visible in your map) but it happens often enough to the extent where you do from time to time meet guys with girlfriends or wives which are 15 or 20 years younger than them and everyone accepts it as a normal relationship. I myself had some dates with girls 15 - 18 years younger in Colombia and it wasn't a "sugar daddy" relationship. Certain African and Asian countries age gap acceptance can even be as high as 30 years without being considered controversial (although still generally an outlier).
3) There are many valid reasons for me (and other red pill men) to move overseas other than women. Cost of living is a major reason. If you have assets generating a decent amount of passive income then you can live comfortably in a low cost of living country as a retiree or semi-retiree rather than working full throttle like you must in the west. Also in low cost of living countries you can afford stuff like a cleaner, a maid, frequent taxi trips, massages, private tour guides to go hiking, etc that you often wouldn't be able to afford when living in the west. Lifestyle/culture. In a country like Australia you don't have the nice colonial towns and old town centres lined with rows of cafes in historic stone buildings, the vast array of cultural events (festivals/parades with traditional dresses and music, etc). Walking around the night markets late at night eating street food and socializing, etc The food is often better in non western countries, etc.
Western countries such as Australia are good for certain people. If you are a young family man who is married with two or more kids and have limited assets and you need a well paying job to support your family then a western country is probably best for your situation. Also if you are a young man trying to build your wealth/assets its usually (although not always) easier to accumulate the wealth in a western country. But for men in other life situations western countries are a far inferior choice. I would say that in general for the average western man who is single once you have enough wealth there is usually no reason to continue to live in the west unless you have family obligations (e.g. looking after elderly parents, etc).
4) What have I done in the last 7 years? I have focused primarily on increasing my wealth. My retirement fell behind schedule due to COVID related disruptions to my finances but I should be hopefully retired before the end of 2025. Wealth is the gateway to everything else. Wealth gives you the freedom to improve all aspects of your life but that of course depends on how motivated you are and how well you use your wealth as its only a tool. But for men wealth should be the first priority and once you have it you can work on the other aspects. When you have wealth you can afford to eat better, dress better, get a personal trainer, supplement more, get skincare treatments, and so on. So you can improve your looks. When you have wealth and don't have to work as much (or at all) and you have more time and money to learn other things (learn new languages, take up new martial arts, learn to hunt and farm, improve your cooking skills, etc). Wealth should be the building blocks for everything as a man. First focus on wealth then after you can get other things later on. Few men are capable enough to juggle many balls at once.
5) Nobody on this forum is suggesting that as a man having money alone is sufficient to get and keep a high quality woman. But as per my point above once you have the money it becomes easier to improve the other aspects of your life and become a well rounded man who has money, has skills in multiple areas, is in good shape, speaks multiple languages, etc.
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But your preferences need to make sense.
Imagine if a fat man lost a lot of weight. Then he desires to find a fit woman, like he is. He then meets a woman who also used to be fat, and became fit. But he says, "I'd like to have a woman whose never been fat, because I don't like fatness," even though he himself used to be a fat man.
That's called hypocrisy, it makes no sense, and claiming it is merely preference is illogical. Judging someone for something you've previously succumbed to, and then holding it against them after they overcome the sin in question, is hypocrisy.
However, what I will say in your defense is that virginity is not something that can be regained. So even if a skanky woman repents, it's entirely possible she'll never become anywhere a close to as good or loyal as a virgin, so I'll grant you that.
But the key here is that virginity is not the end all be all, because there's no telling what a virgin woman will become. The idea that simply because of some external factor, such as virginity, we can judge a woman's internal qualities, such as loyalty, reeks of nonsense in today's age. There are too many counter-examples.
A woman who is raised in a religious background, for example, is a far better indicator of loyalty than virginity. And I would rather take a repentant woman who was raised in a good house, than an untested virgin born to a single-mom.
That's what I mean by, "Your preferences need to make sense."
Not every man will marry a virgin, but those of us who have children can set the precedent that our children are virgins when they get married. Apply course correction. This is a generational struggle. Return to Christ, honor your parents, your kin, your people. One suffering life at a time. Whatever it takes to vanquish the materialistic hedonistic spirit that has overtaken most of the Christian Nations.
Two points. One male virginity and female virginity are not equivalent because men and women are different and it affects them differently. Also different traits are valued in men than women. Because a man has large muscles does it mean he should necessarily want a woman with large muscles? If a man is tall should he necessarily want a woman who is tall?
And yes indeed as you conceded already virginity cannot be regained nor the emotional and spiritual damage of losing it completely undone especially for women. Being alpha widowed is a real thing.
Why do people on this thread think demanding a virgin is outrageous when merely one generation ago (our parents generation) a large percentage of women were virgins when getting married?
And yet, all of these pure virgin marriages meant nothing to them, because their souls were corrupted and they let their children become corrupted. This shows that virginity means nothing without the Holy Spirit.