Marriage: Virgins vs Non-virgins

[fortyfive]

From a sole practical view: How would such a quest to find a virgin look like?

Would you travel to a foreign country, invest time, money, and a lot of energy to meet a supposed virgin, and then you will ask her on the first or tenth date if she is a virgin?
And if she says yes, will you believe it, marry her with the hope she told you the truth, and only then discover the reality?

And if reality doesn't match expectations, then what? Quick divorce?

Or will you play PUA clown, try to seduce presumed virgins, and find out in bed before committing yourself to a serious relationship?

 

[Samseau]

Also to the guys saying its not fair to expect a virgin woman when you are not a virgin I disagree. Because historically a man's value was never predicated on his virginity and still isn't today. Very few women even prefer a virgin guy. In fact most of them would prefer if the guy is not virgin because they expect the man to take the lead in the bedroom and also they want a man that other women desire.

It seems like feminist logic to say only a virgin man should expect a virgin.

A man should be in good shape, be wise and financially and emotionally stable to look after a woman.
A woman should be young, beautiful, fertile and virgin.
Different traits are desirable in women vs men.

Just to reinforce the point I have met plenty of men who want (or wanted) virgin wives but I have never personally met a woman who wanted specifically a virgin husband.

While this is true, it is also true that idolatry of virginity is just as much of a mistake.

Every whore is born a virgin. Just because you find a young virgin, does not mean a thing in the modern age. She has yet to be tempted by the sins of this world, you have no idea how she will grow or develop. Conversely if you find an old virgin, chances are she's a spoiled princess who is too good for every man she meets and she would be terrible wife material.

I'd much rather take a repentant skank, who is still young with low mileage, over an untested virgin who could easily become a demon woman. A woman who is repenting is on the path to salvation and will be converting to my Church. Conversely a young virgin with a huge ego could go in any direction.

Virginity is just one quality among many qualities to consider when looking for a good wife. A loyal woman is paramount and there are many factors to consider when selecting for loyalty.

 

[Iacobus]

It has nothing to do with what women desire, and entering into a marriage because of things women want is a disaster. Of course, no one should fornicate, male or female, married or single.

Right, I noticed this too and was trying to figure out how to phrase it. Why would we recognize that modern women are delusional in so many ways, and then take it for granted that it's good and natural that they apparently want a man experienced in fornication these days?

I'm not trying to accuse OP in particular of this as I don't know him but sometimes I wonder if fixation on virginity is reflective of a man with weak frame who is secretly concerned that he may not be able to successfully bring a woman who has seen something of the world into his frame. No doubt it's easier with a virgin but as Samseau pointed out a man with weak frame is going to have problem with a virgin in the modern world down the road anyway. Of course when a woman is too corrupted then she is ruined and of course not marriage material. But I believe it is more of a gradient and not a binary "ruined or not ruined" thing.

The "there's nothing wrong with men fornicating but women who fornicate are worthless" mindset has always smacked of cope & entitlement to me but frankly as an atheist there's nothing really stopping you from dictating sexuality morality in whichever way you please, be it evolutionary theory or otherwise. It's not a discussion that can be had productively between a Christian and an atheist.

 

[Wutang]

From a sole practical view: How would such a quest to find a virgin look like?

Would you travel to a foreign country, invest time, money, and a lot of energy to meet a supposed virgin, and then you will ask her on the first or tenth date if she is a virgin?
And if she says yes, will you believe it, marry her with the hope she told you the truth, and only then discover the reality?

And if reality doesn't match expectations, then what? Quick divorce?

Or will you play PUA clown, try to seduce presumed virgins, and find out in bed before committing yourself to a serious relationship?

The best way would to be integrated into some sort of church community. Anecdotally, I know several women that are still virgins or were virgins until their wedding nights and pretty much all of them are serious Christians. I should add that nearly all of them are also from more conservative cultures (Asian or Latina) as well but at the same time, they aren't 'FOBs' and were either born in the US or if they weren't, grew up in the US. These women have a nice balance of where they come from the same cultural fabric as you so there isn't that huge gap as you would find with a foreign woman but are also inoculated from a lot of the negative parts of the culture - not as much as some village girl in Honduras or Thailand of course but still but still to what is at an acceptable level, at least by my standards.

That said, women like this are not the majority even in the churches so I don't want to give the impression that you can walk into these churches and take your pick off the shelf but still, in the US it's the best place for seeking these sort of women. I do think that if you go outside of the US the rate gets higher but then that brings a lot of other extra costs. A man will have to do his own cost-benefit analysis and think through if getting an extra say 30% chance of finding a virgin is worth say spending 2 years and $30,000 into moving and integrating yourself into a foreign culture and calculate for himself which is the greater cost.

The other thing I will throw in is that all of the women I was referring to above are evangelicals. If you are looking for someone who is Orthodox then I think the calculation is going to weigh more heavily on going abroad being an better idea.

 

[Caduceus]

Anecdotally, I know several women that are still virgins or were virgins until their wedding nights....

How can you really know this ?

 

[Douglas Quaid]

How can you really know this ?

I guess you really can't know for sure, but virgin women have a different personality to them. Not as comfortable around men, and take a while to open up. They're also a lot more pleasant once they do open up, and not bitter like women that sleep around.

But you really do have to be careful, even with Christian women. Lots of phonies out there. The ones that take church and Christianity seriously, don't wear yoga pants or show too much skin, wear dresses like women from the 50s, close with their families, usually take their studies seriously. Stuff like that.

A lot of skanks that try to hide it are also huge hypocrites and get insanely jealous if they see you talk to another woman.

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

The concept of marrying a non-virgin woman seems to me humilliating and wildly suboptimal for all kinds of reasons. I honestly think I'd rather just remain celibate until I die than do that.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

The concept of marrying a non-virgin woman seems to me humilliating and wildly suboptimal for all kinds of reasons. I honestly think I'd rather just remain celibate until I die than do that.

Good luck.... But no bitching.

 

[Shaquilleoatmeal]

The "there's nothing wrong with men fornicating but women who fornicate are worthless" mindset has always smacked of cope & entitlement to me but frankly as an atheist there's nothing really stopping you from dictating sexuality morality in whichever way you please, be it evolutionary theory or otherwise. It's not a discussion that can be had productively between a Christian and an atheist.

This is a strawman. No one is saying it’s okay for men to fornicate.

If a man is an alcoholic, and repents from that, and that meets a woman who is a former alcoholic, and decides to look for a woman who didn’t become addicted to drugs, is he a hypocrite? Most would say no.

But if a man fornicates but wants a virgin, people might call him a hypocrite. But the same logic applies.

It all comes down to people being brainwashed into thinking a man and woman fornicating are the same and the “evil patriarchy” allows men to “get away with it.” It stems down to ENVY. Men who save themselves for marriage are envious of men who sleep around and then get a virgin wife. Women who whore around are envious they are discriminated against for their past while the men who slept around aren’t discriminated against as harshly.

No one is jealous of a former alcoholic, but people are jealous of fornicators, especially male fornicators, because they get to “eat their cake and have it too.”

 

[EuropeanCanon]

Good luck finding a (non muslim) girl in the western world over 19 years old who is still a virgin.
It's something like less than 1% of the whole female population.

Sad but true

 

[Get2choppaaa]

This is a strawman. No one is saying it’s okay for men to fornicate.

If a man is an alcoholic, and repents from that, and that meets a woman who is a former alcoholic, and decides to look for a woman who didn’t become addicted to drugs, is he a hypocrite? Most would say no.

But if a man fornicates but wants a virgin, people might call him a hypocrite. But the same logic applies.

It all comes down to people being brainwashed into thinking a man and woman fornicating are the same and the “evil patriarchy” allows men to “get away with it.” It stems down to ENVY. Men who save themselves for marriage are envious of men who sleep around and then get a virgin wife. Women who whore around are envious they are discriminated against for their past while the men who slept around aren’t discriminated against as harshly.

No one is jealous of a former alcoholic, but people are jealous of fornicators, especially male fornicators, because they get to “eat their cake and have it too.”

I doubt many people are jealous of male fornicators, at least not married people with happy lives and attractive spouses and all that. Not healthy men you'd want to emulate at least. Having been one of those people... I actually feel quite sorry for them. You are filling a void or trauma with connection that you're seeking to cover up.

I disagree....the few Men I've met whom save themselves for marriage by choice aren't envious, they are smart and actually stronger to have courage of their conviction.

There's nowhere in Scripture and Church traditions that I'm aware of about commanding you not to drink. There is plenty tradition about virginity for virginitys sake as the greatest gift you can give your spouse.

Aside from the fact...There is a significant difference in between alcoholism and fornication in the sense of the ability to pair bond that must be overcome. It's possible to overcome that... But unlikely.

it was truly embarrassing when I told my now wife, who was really quite forgiving about how debauched I had been. We ultimately did and have used The Church as our backstop, and early on in sure if it hadn't been that we were introduced by family and had both agreed to make a conversion to Orthodoxy central in our relationship, I'm sure if have fallen into my backslider ways.

Men who've played the game want virgins, sure... But they aren't entitled to them simply because of that...and I don't think any father would be introduced any young women to any men out there either.

My brother married his HS sweetheart. They've been together since 15. Frankly that's about your best bet.

 

[Shaquilleoatmeal]

There's nowhere in Scripture and Church traditions that I'm aware of about commanding you not to drink.

Proverbs 23:29-35
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Drinking alcohol is definitely a sin. There is non alcoholic wine and alcoholic wine in the Bible. Gif wants us to evade alcoholic drinks.

Men who've played the game want virgins, sure... But they aren't entitled to them simply because of that

No one is entitled. It’s a messed up landscape out there.

 

[Australia Sucks]

From a sole practical view: How would such a quest to find a virgin look like?

Would you travel to a foreign country, invest time, money, and a lot of energy to meet a supposed virgin, and then you will ask her on the first or tenth date if she is a virgin?
And if she says yes, will you believe it, marry her with the hope she told you the truth, and only then discover the reality?

And if reality doesn't match expectations, then what? Quick divorce?

Or will you play PUA clown, try to seduce presumed virgins, and find out in bed before committing yourself to a serious relationship?

For me if I am looking for a woman to marry virginity is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Virginity is just the starting point, there are many other factors that need to be considered. One day if/when I am ready to get married I will go overseas to a more conservative country and live there for a few years. There I will try to get to know at least 20 - 30 women who are virgin and aged 18 - 21. Out of those 20 - 30 women hopefully at least 2 or 3 will be marriage-worthy and I can choose one of them. Young and virgin does not guarantee that they are wife material but its a good starting point a good lake to go fishing in as it were. By knowing a girl better and knowing how she grew up, meeting her family, knowing her lifestyle etc you will have a better chance of knowing if she is truthful about her virginity but of course you can never be certain. And even if she is virgin you cannot be certain she is of good character as there may be skeletons in the closet you do not know about. In life you can only reduce risk you can never eliminate it entirely. No risk, no reward, nothing ventured, nothing gained, etc.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Proverbs 23:29-35
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Drinking alcohol is definitely a sin. There is non alcoholic wine and alcoholic wine in the Bible. Gif wants us to evade alcoholic drinks.


No one is entitled. It’s a messed up landscape out there.

No. Just flat out no.

Drinking alcohol is not a sin. This is garbage. Christ literally turned water into wine as one of his miracles.

Drinking to excess and drunkenness said the sin. But again... Tie this parallel to the marriage point I was making.

 

[Rax Moscow]

I'd much rather take a repentant skank, who is still young with low mileage, over an untested virgin who could easily become a demon

The only acceptable tagline if one must create a dating profile.

 

[Rax Moscow]

The thing about virginity, is it used to be taken for granted. If you met an unmarried woman, throughout history, in every culture in the world, unless you were at a whorehouse, she was assumed to be a virgin. If you interacted in a romantic type setting, ie danced with her or talked one on one after church, virginity was not a question that needed to be brought up, because it was the one thing that separated the married girl from the single girl.

Women wanted to be married, and just as the man was expected to gift a home and clothing and affections to his wife, the girl would grant him the best gift God endowed her with--a gift that could only be granted once. Yes, there was fear of damnation, and yes there were societal repercussions to sluttery, but one of the biggest motivations was a positive one--the girl wanted to be married, and therefore she wanted to have sex with her husband, because otherwise, what is the difference between single life and married life, other than cohabitation (which many "single" people do) ? (I often ask this about secular friends who have "married" their "partner" in a civil ceremony after years of cohabitation--it's not really clear what has changed).

Sure, there were exceptions (though the vast, vast majority of premarital sex was women having sex with their fiance before marriage), and the most important point is that these experiences were shameful and hidden, but I think my grandfather would have been confused if I introduced him to a girl who was unmarried and yet had fornicated with 5 men. Sex was something married people did, partly because of religious dictates, but it was really much bigger than that. It was just accepted that intercourse was for marriage (the pill largely changed this as women could get away with hiding the evidence of their indiscretions, but eventually they no longer even had that shame and became proud to fornicate. Pride in a sin is an extreme form of sinning. Most of us sin shamefully and regretfully.

So in the modern world, you can take one of two paths. You can accept that we live in a world where this particular sin is extremely common, and just accept it, assuming your partner repents, and move forward (after all, we all have sins, and I would argue that the woman is not really to be held responsible for her actions anyway, as she lacks agency and is committing these sins due to the failures of her society and the men in her life), or you can say no, I don't care what year it is, I hold that a bride by definition is virginal, and that is the only acceptable mate for me. I think either is acceptable (though obviously the latter will often require things like marrying before finishing school or looking outside your geographic home for a suitable partner)

For me if I am looking for a woman to marry virginity is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Virginity is just the starting point

Right, it used to be as qualifying a criteria for a bride as "is female" or "has passed puberty"
I'm just extremely old fashioned and don't adapt well to the modern world. Modern changes and pop culture are totally superfluous to my life (of course they affect the women I interact with, and there lies the problem).

 

[Samseau]

If a man is an alcoholic, and repents from that, and that meets a woman who is a former alcoholic, and decides to look for a woman who didn’t become addicted to drugs, is he a hypocrite? Most would say no.

Then most are wrong, because that IS hypocrisy. Judging someone else for something you've been guilty of doing is quite literally the definition of hypocrisy.

As long as the man or woman is repentant, the Christian is called to forgive, or else the Christian will not be forgiven by our Father who is in Heaven.

As long as the woman passes the boner test, judging and rejecting her for past sins you're also guilty of is hypocrisy. Sorry, but Christ and the Church are 100% clear on this.

"Let he without sin cast the first stone."

 

[Iacobus]

This is a strawman. No one is saying it’s okay for men to fornicate.

I got the impression that OP was communicating as much by him elaborating his thoughts on how past fornication was a positive trait for men because women want 'experienced' men and not virgin men. Which is why I was commenting about atheistic perspective on the matter.

If someone insists on a virgin wife or nothing, good on them and Godspeed, it will be a tough task. And as someone who has spent many years living internationally I find OP's plan of going abroad and meeting 30 virgins and vetting them all to find his ideal wife, to be very out of touch with reality. But it's not impossible and I think we'd all agree that virginity would be ideal for a wife, it is how it is supposed to be.

For those who say that they would rather remain celibate than marry a non-virgin, again I say good on you, St. Paul says that such a state is most blessed, but I would recommend researching and looking into the monastic life to see if you are cut out for it, because that is your path of celibacy. Attempting to remain a lifelong celibate in the world is not going to end well. And many men are not meant for it even within the monastic world.

I do find there to be a contradiction where men are holding women to a higher standard than themselves in terms of sexual immorality, while they would likely say (and correctly) in the same breath that women, relative to men, innately lack self-control, discipline, are vulnerable to societal trends and groupthink, rationalization, hamstering, etc.

ETA: I'm not trying to explicitly accuse anyone ITT of this btw, for one thing OP is not a Christian so he isn't a hypocrite for not holding to Christian mores, this is just a common strain of thought I've noticed among some right-wing trad men who are fixated on virginity.

 

[Samseau]

Proverbs 23:29-35
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Drinking alcohol is definitely a sin. There is non alcoholic wine and alcoholic wine in the Bible. Gif wants us to evade alcoholic drinks.

It is important to note that in Ancient times, alcohol was always present in water. Wine was the #1 way alcohol was produced, and it was added to water in order to kill bacteria.

That is why the passage says not to look upon wine when it is red, because that is the most potent wine; Jesus turning water into wine was an act of purifying filthy water into clean water through alcohol (wine).

Therefore, when many passages spoke of drinking wine, they weren't getting wasted; the wine was heavily diluted in order to be used as a purifying agent of water. Drinking pure red wine was how one got wasted, and this was frowned upon when done in excess, which is why Paul says "Drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven."

 

[Caduceus]

For me if I am looking for a woman to marry virginity is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Virginity is just the starting point, there are many other factors that need to be considered. One day if/when I am ready to get married I will go overseas to a more conservative country and live there for a few years. There I will try to get to know at least 20 - 30 women who are virgin and aged 18 - 21. Out of those 20 - 30 women hopefully at least 2 or 3 will be marriage-worthy and I can choose one of them. Young and virgin does not guarantee that they are wife material but its a good starting point a good lake to go fishing in as it were. By knowing a girl better and knowing how she grew up, meeting her family, knowing her lifestyle etc you will have a better chance of knowing if she is truthful about her virginity but of course you can never be certain. And even if she is virgin you cannot be certain she is of good character as there may be skeletons in the closet you do not know about. In life you can only reduce risk you can never eliminate it entirely. No risk, no reward, nothing ventured, nothing gained, etc.

Dude...this is ludicrous. You are living in the 21st century, with fantasy expectations of the 19th century.

There is no country on earth today where you will casually "get to know" 20 to 30 virgins between ages of 18 to 21 who will remotely be interested in you (unless you convert to being Muslim or Amish). Only about maximum 30% of girls at that age are interested in older men, and the remaining 70% will report you to the police for being a creepy older man. Of those 30% interested in older guys, half or more will not be virgins. The other half will have many other suitors you will have to compete with. Even if you miraculously find one that fits all your strict criteria, not only will she have to be interested in marrying at that young age, but her siblings, friends and parents will also have a huge influence over whether it's a good idea to marry (or even date) an older guy or not.

You need to be more realistic.
This is coming from someone who actually had a true virgin as a girlfriend years ago.