^ I'm glad we are having some reality checks injected into this thread. Focusing on virginity as a necessity for marriage seems unfeasible for a man aged 30+, let alone an atheist man aged 30+.
OP speaks of "no risk, no reward", one of my favourite aphorisms, which compels me to ponder this rhetorical question:
What has OP done (especially in the past 7 years since we met) to achieve his goal in Australia?
Hmmm... I guess not that much
I'll now indulge the potential retort "but Australia is full of fatties, feminists, girls who lose their v-card at 16 etc..."
Unless OP is now living in a small country town, this attitude shows an unwillingness to take action locally with non-locals, of which there are many. Australia is having a
record number of new arrivals [LINK]! Thousands of young women come to study English or attend university in Australia every month and many of them are still virgins. It would seem to be so much easier to have put in the work here, rather than having to (theoretically) move to a poor country just for the sake of this endeavour.
The idea of going overseas to find this mystical virgin, while simultaneously refusing to take action to approach a few (if any?) of the thousands of young foreign women arriving every month in your own country... this truly doesn't make sense to me personally.
But hey, OP you do you mate! I won't try convincing you otherwise. Only you know what is best for you.
I emphasised the term 'theoretical' above because OP also wrote:
^ This statement is, I think, a more accurate reflection of the nature of the thread - it is really just an "intellectual exercise". It's quite interesting, hence my long post here. But seems to be only an exchange of ideas, rather than a potential driver of any real behaviour change.
Still, to be clear, I genuinely do wish OP the best
It Takes More than 'Wanting'
>> Note that none of the below is direct advice to anyone in particular. Only the man himself knows what is best for him.
>> It's also worth noting general trends are just that, general; and
as individuals we have the power to break through these general trends of the ordinary, if we are willing to be extraordinary.
Being a virgin man doesn't entitle the man to a virgin wife. For a virgin male, it makes sense that he wants a virgin for a wife. But this gives him no more "rights" to a virgin female than anyone else.
Being a non-virgin man and wanting a virgin wife is understandable, given what red-pilled men know about the nature of pair-bonding, satisfaction, and attraction, e.g., women with higher body counts tend to be less satisfied with their present choice, women moreso than men find virgins to be less attractive, etc.
Yet simply having a desire means little if this desire does not motivate a man to take
massive action. "I want a virgin but I don't want to face too much rejection".
^ This is the attitude of a man who is unwilling to face discomfort to achieve his goals in life. He can have a 150 IQ and a million dollars but none of that will help in the long term if he is scared to get rejected and is unwilling to confront these fears.
Further, demanding a "virgin wife or nothing", regardless of experience, seems a little extreme. It may be a justified stance in this clown world. It may be a defence mechanism used to protect oneself against the potential outcome of rejection. It may be many things. I am certainly not here to make that judgement.
Indeed, men who take up the Holy Monastic life for honourable reasons have my sincere respect. Going monk mode can be a way of serving God.
Other men who tend to stay home alone in front of their computer, feeling isolated and lonely, will unlikely be shamed or ridiculed into action... but rather, by understanding and encouraging them to be the best versions of themselves that they can be. This includes showing them the way by giving useful advice or encouraging support, rather than simply telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
That said, encouraging comforting delusions for the sake of being supportive is not, in the end, going to help anyone.
We routinely tease women aged over 35 who are delusional because they confused their sexual market value with their wifey market value, because they wanted a "career first" and now their eggs are gone, etc. Men are less likely to be delusional, but (we all) still have our own biases. One of the major myths in the manosphere is that "there is no male wall" or a "man peaks in his late 30s or 40s". This is comforting when you are a manosphere guru preaching to men at that age or younger, saying things like "don't settle, don't get married, take your time, you only get better" etc.
If late 30s to 40s was truly the peak then the most attractive adult women aged 20-25 would NOT typically marry men who are within 1-3 years of their own age. But they do. At least in the modern world.
Source
The Three Questions
Moving on. For anyone seeking a virgin, three questions remain:
1. Do you have the required HMV (Husband Market Value) and the opportunity (access) to hold such a standard?
Simply holding values or having desires does not mean you can get these things. Further, even being eligible does not mean you have access.
2. Do you have the required responsibility, leadership, and unwavering patience to facilitate this relationship?
Having a relationship and then marriage with a young virgin, who is likely to be considerably younger than you, will require VERY HIGH levels of patience and discipline. You may be tested by her relative immaturity on a daily basis for years on end.
3. If not, what have you done to get closer to achieving these goals?
If you don't have the percieved HMV, access, and personal attributes, then let's get cracking!
The Options
It's amazing how much this mirrors my experience here in Australia.
With that in mind here are some options and my experience-based reflections on the realistic avenues of finding a virgin (or at least a reliable, young, low-notch conservative) who could become a wife.
*Disclaimer: my adult church-based experiences are mainly based on an evangelical church. Some Catholic communities seem to be less socially active and integrated in extra-church activities. I have no experience with the Orthodox church. YMMV.
1. The church option
1a. Attend a church from your teens to mid-20s for several years. IMO this is clearly the most reliable option.
Most attractive (physically and personality-wise) church-going women are paired up by their mid-20s. A few will exist in their late 20s, although they will tend to be less physically attractive.
The very few that are still around in their 30s are likely to have some unseen problems such as extreme pickiness or personality issues. Some late 20s church-going women have unrealistic standards and highly inflated versions of themselves.
1b. This can also work if you are in your 30s and you moved location or changed churches. However you must (a) be well integrated into the community after spending at least 1-2 years of biweekly attendance at both Sunday service and bible study,
AND (b) have taken and continue to take considerable action to reduce the perceived age gap.
My personal experience: I've attended an evangelical church for several years. It is a mix of internationals and locals, and is supported by the flow of young cohorts. I have seen many couples pair up through the church. It's a great community and I respect the fact that it takes so many years to be fully "accepted" even if it was frustrating to me at times. The key, however, is that most couples that got married had been to the same church for several YEARS before they even started dating.
I ended up marrying a woman outside of that particular church, but I was able to see how it could be possible to "restart" in a new church at 30+. There were several early-to-mid 20s women who seemed attracted to me, including a couple who were almost certainly virgins. However, this was ONLY possible because of the two factors mentioned above: (a) consistent attendance and (b) looking younger than my age, which was achieved through a combination of genetic blueprints and
years of dedication to health, vitality, energy, etc.
Regarding point (b) - staying young
In
part 3 of this post [LINK] I described why men who want a younger wife can benefit by taking action to reduce the perceived age gap.
The importance of this approach seems to be underestimated or dismissed by some members. Such sentiments have been expressed in
other threads [LINK] at CIK.
I have also read of men online saying things like "I just need more money/status/career progress and then I can attract more women". This mainly applies to younger men, however I've seen a sentiment on RVF/CIK in self-reported "older" guys.
By contrast, I see fewer older men asking how to reduce the
perceived age gap between them and their ideal mates, and how their perceived youthfulness and internal vigor impacts their potential success.
Later, I'll craft a separate post about the pros/cons of age gaps and the various strategies for staying youthful for men who are keen to put in effort to meet and court a younger wife.
2. The local secular option
2a. Cold approach on the street or at a university/college.
2b. Screen hard online and steel yourself emotionally. Protocols are here:
Navigating Online Dating for Christian Men [LINK]. After years and years of refusing to do online dating because I knew I could pull way better quality through cold approaching and other in-person interactions, I eventually met my wife online because it was extremely frustrating trying to approach women with masks on. So, it is possible to have success that way, however it can be extremely draining and your experience will be highly contingent upon the factors described in the protocol, namely your location, appearance, age, screening and social skills. As I wrote:
2c. Get involved in a sports/hobby club with young fit women around.
My personal experience with 2a - cold approach:
Before my wife, I had a long relationship with a young woman who was, relative to my own looks/status, very physically attractive. I met her through cold approach in a shopping centre. Initially she was not that interested but in time grew very attached. Now, she was a virgin in her early 20s and I was mid 30s. She was not poor. So she didn't need money from me. Of her friends that had BFs, all the BFs were within 1-3 years of their age. So our age gap was the clear outlier of relationships in her social circle.
On the 3rd date, she asked me how old I was, and I told her the truth. She was shocked, but was already quite attracted and invested, so it didn't stop things escalating. Later,
she told me that if she knew my age at the very start she would have disqualified me instantly. I don't doubt it.
One lesson from this follows:
(i) the only way this relationship ever happened, was because I put in a huge amount of effort into not just learning how to approach and attract girls, and maintain a relationship, but also, how to take care of myself both internally and externally. Genetics help a lot, but so does everything else - sleep, exercise, drinking water, skincare, diet, etc.
Ultimately the relationship didn't work out for several reasons, which taught me some more lessons.
Two of these are as follows:
(ii) it is possible to have an age gap that is too large. This reflection is backed up by
considerable amount of data [LINK] across countries that reveals large age gaps increase the risk of divorce (albeit this research is heavily biased towards modern Western sources). This could be related to many reasons which I'll have to cover in another post.
For me, well my EX was nowhere near close to being ready for kids. She was heading towards her mid 20s, a generally glorious time for a woman, and she was starting to see her true potential in many areas of life. She wanted to travel more. I was satisfied with my travels. For me at the time, 40-45 was on the horizon, and without children in the picture (whereas my now-wife has blessed me with children).
(iii) Another critical lesson for me was that taking on a young woman, especially a virgin for a girlfriend and potential wife entails
VERY HIGH LEVELS of responsibility, patience, and daily leadership. This is a clear downside for many men who get naturally frustrated when dealing with such immaturity
relative to their own age.
Hence the acceptance of trade-offs is a necessary step in the whole process of finding and selecting
any woman.
3. The international move
3a. Move overseas permanently and integrate with the local community, attend the local church, learn the local language etc.
This is a feasible option IF you have other motivations and reasons to live in that area (cultural, financial, lifestyle, linguistic, etc). Without such reasons, you are putting immense pressure on yourself and every woman you meet, subconsciously or not. You have a decent chance to meet a traditional woman this way, but finding a reliable virgin without being involved in a religious community makes this task far, far harder.
3b. Travel overseas for weeks/months, start a relationship by the chance meeting of an amazing virgin girl who also has all the other characteristics of a desirable wife, then continue things long distance for sometime until one of you moves countries. This is technically possible to achieve but highly challenging and thus unlikely.
3c. Go online and start chatting with girls in Peru, Ethiopia, etc. Not recommended for anything over 2 weeks before arriving because all your efforts can be for nothing when you arrive and discover she was using an AI video filter.
And on that note, I must say for all our sake, please
never ever EVER EVER send money to a woman you have never met.
3d. Use money to "buy a wife" overseas, and stay there or bring her back home. This is possibly the worst option. You will be seen as a walking ATM and means to an end.
Being the breadwinner is not a problem per se; what can create problems is a reliance on material provision to sustain respect, attraction, and attachment. Barring exceptional circumstances, this will not work.
A reliance on the external violates a key premise of red pill relationships 101 - she must respect you. So, it pays to beware of overreliance on attraction proxies for generating genuine attraction to
you.
Absolutely - social status and monetary wealth will generate interest in the short term, and are highly correlated with mating success in the longer-term. However,
ongoing respect cannot be bought. If this premise was false you wouldn't hear about rich and famous men getting dumped. You also wouldn't hear about long-married men, who have very successful careers, complaining about their wives incessant nagging, demands, emotional abuse etc.
The Value of Virginity and Youth
One last comment: Virginity is an important characteristic in the ideal woman. I want to wholeheartedly validate that belief. It makes sense on biological, cultural and sexual levels.
It is just not a standard that any man aged 30/40+, especially an athiest, can easily demand.
Now onto the 'experience' research
This research is 10+ years old so the stats must be even worse now in terms of the numbers of virgins getting married
Other studies on sexual experience and marital satisfaction:
>
https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-sexual-history-affect-marital-happiness
>
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00444.x
>
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-008-9497-0
And then, of course, there is the Word:
Conclusion
Let's not pretend that virginity isn't valuable, as this can be a cognitive trick to rationalise our lack of choice and devalue what we can't get. But also let's not delude ourselves into thinking that
only a virgin wife will make us happy and lead to a lasting marriage, as this may be a rationalisation that stops us taking action to achieve our deepest life goals (including having a family). Virginity can become a false idol that distracts us from more important things.
Above all, women initiate the vast majority of breakups and divorces, so men should pay particular attention to women's behaviour and her history. A woman's sexual history is an important part of that. However having a couple of relationships before you is unlikely to be a huge factor that determines the relative success/failure of your bond. Having 10+ casual partners will have a much bigger impact, as will her social media usage and experience of FOMO, influence of her friends, her parents' relationship, her general impulse control, etc. These things add up together, and by using this combined knowledge you can make a more informed choice.
I hope this post helps some men of any age, especially those who are seeking a younger, conservative wife and are considering some different approaches, ideas, and action steps. Feedback welcome as always.
