Why Voting Is Worth It

[Lawrence87]

I find this whole thing similar to the vegan nonsense. One side is basically like "what you eat is up to you it doesn't have any bearing on moral character" and the other is like "you're evil if you don't share my dietary preferences"

There is something to be said for thinking about the issue and having a position on it, as opposed to being apathetic, but its absurd to point to voting as being a matter of Christian ethics.

Get off your high horse. It's a personal decision that people conclude differently. It would be equally absurd to say voting is un-Christian.

 

[Samseau]

I would be interested, if you so choose to, to go talk to a Bishop and bring your arguments to him, citing all your reasoning why you think not voting is a sin, and I will go and do the same, though it may be a week or two before I can get a reply to you on that one, to get an absolute modern take from a high-ranking member of the cloth. Then we can discuss the verdict of the church on whether or not it is a sin to not vote, and to what level this sin is if it is at all.

I'm actually meeting my Bishop in three weeks, I will ask him then, along with some other priests. My Bishop's father served in WW2, I doubt he thought hundreds of thousands of people gave up their lives in war just so people can go, "Meh, don't feel like voting, America is gay."

The question is,

"Is it wrong (a sin) to not vote out of apathy, indifference, or disdain?" Those are the Christian terms to use and evaluate. It's not that voting in and of itself is a virtue or sin; for example, if someone were to get into a car crash on the way to the voting booth, and fail to make a vote, that person has not sinned. It's the intent behind the vote which is the source of virtue or sin, which in this case is either caring and loving one's country, flaws and all, or not.

These are all Zionist, anti-Christian, abortion and LGBT promoting war mongerers and I don't want to vote for any of them, then I don't see how they have sinned. Its a separate question as to whether or not they are loving towards their neighbour.

There are always third parties which will meet whatever ideals you seek at the federal level. There is no excuse not to vote, not to mention, there is the larger question of voting for state and municipal positions. Ignoring these positions is also not loving towards one's Neighbors.

I don't really see how you can justify apathy towards one's country. You either love your country, or you don't. And only love is the way of God.

Democracy is fundamentally an inversion of God's order wherein the people rather than God decide who is at the top of the pyramid. On that basis alone a Christian is entirely justified in not engaging with it based on their principles

This is an unjustified assumption on your part. There is no such thing as the type of government God ordains. God can ordain whatever government he wants. The only King we know for sure is Christ, everything else is debatable and unknown. Today a democracy, tomorrow a monarchy, I don't see why God would care.

Is Maduro's government in Venezuela ordained by God?

Could be, it could be a way to force chastisement into Venezuelans so that something greater is created later on.

Are the people protesting disobeying authority and by virtue have a rebellious spirit?

The alternative could also be true, in that these protestors are obeying the will of God more.

It's impossible to say in the moment, we can only know after the fact. God ordains all things for a reason, and we cannot know what those reasons are until later on.

Quite frankly, it's unimportant to know such reasons. God will do what's best, so there's no need to think about it. All we need to do is our small part, love our Neighbors, and this includes one's country.

It's not gotcha questions, what you're saying is not consistent.

The theology of God and politics is consistent, even if you are unable to grasp it. You seem to think God will tell us what to do in the moment; doesn't work that way since God allows us a free will.

• Is it dignified to be ruled by outsiders?
• Is it dignifed for women to be treated as prostitutes [with their consent]?
• Is it dignified to be forcefully pacified by the government with an ever increasing level of danger?
• Is it dignified to have liberty eroded for the sake of an ever increasing power of the elites?
• Is it dignified to live without tradition and norms, constantly in cultural limbo?
• Is it dignified to have to question the nature of my identity while experiencing hostility towards it?

And by not participating in your country's civic processes, you allow all of these things to continue to occur without resistance since you are not showing Love to thy Neighbor.

Even Baptist John, who was powerless, called out Herod's illegitimate marriage, despite not being able to affect the outcome. Do you know why John engaged in politics?

Because John didn't care about the outcome, he cared about God and Neighbor, and he was going to do the right thing no matter what happened.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

You, and the others here who argue against voting, are saying Baptist John was wrong for being political. Even though Jesus said Baptist John was the greatest man born among women. I think I'll side with John and Jesus myself.

1) You didn't even answer my first question, let alone all of them, So i'll repeat, "Self opinion and pride is good on a spiritual level?" By assuming that voting is a moral good, you're also assuming that

A) Politics is something that everyone can and should be involved in
B) Each persons education on political matters doesn't matter, and each vote should weigh the same
C) What the majority wants is what is good for society
D) That the majority of people are rational actors (or is that only while voting?)
E) That the voting campaign is an accurate representation of the the candidates behaviour when in office
F) That the candidate's behaviour will not be influenced by lobbying groups
G) That the candidate has autocratic control and will conform the existing bureaucracy to his view
H) That the voting is an honest process, and those in power will graciously accept the results

None of these things have anything to do with love for thy neighbor. Even if people are deficient, or the political system is deficient, it does not follow that one should not love their country, which is an extension of love thy neighbor.

It is irrelevant as to whether or not voting is a good system, for the purposes of this discussion. The fact is, we have the right to vote, and to simply ignore it in spite of the sacrifices made for us to have this right, and, be indifferent to how political outcomes affect our Neighbors, is a sin. It is not loving towards our neighbors, and no amount of political theory can change that.

2) AFAIK There is no law requiring people to vote, so those not voting are obeying the government.

Yes, obey is the wrong word, because there is no literal dictate to vote, but, I am referring to the fact that God gave us a democracy, and our ancestors suffered and bleed for the rights we have today, and to casually brush it off as irrelevant is a sinful act which does not show love to our ancestors, or the plight caused by political decisions in the real world.

Just like Baptist John showed a bare minimum of political concern, so must all good Christians as well.

3) If it's power politics you're playing, and voting truly is power politics, what did the 2020 election show you?

It shows that our country is in deep trouble, and needs us now more than ever. Do you just give up on someone when they fall on hard times?

 

[Samseau]

I find this whole thing similar to the vegan nonsense. One side is basically like "what you eat is up to you it doesn't have any bearing on moral character" and the other is like "you're evil if you don't share my dietary preferences"

There is something to be said for thinking about the issue and having a position on it, as opposed to being apathetic, but its absurd to point to voting as being a matter of Christian ethics.

Get off your high horse. It's a personal decision that people conclude differently. It would be equally absurd to say voting is un-Christian.

What you eat only affects you. Who you vote for, or not vote for, affects everyone.

 

[Northumber]

"Is it wrong (a sin) to not vote out of apathy, indifference, or disdain?" Those are the Christian terms to use and evaluate. It's not that voting in and of itself is a virtue or sin;

I would say it's obvious that it's wrong and a sin to not vote out of apathy, indifference, or disdain. The key issue is the motivation. The question should include a potential virtuous reason to not vote as well. There seems like there could be a break-over point where a government could be so evil and asking the voter to choose between two options that are so evil that the virtuous decision would be to abstain. There is also a more neutral case where a voter may abstain because they don't understand what they are selecting between.

 

[Aboulia]

None of these things have anything to do with love for thy neighbor. Even if people are deficient, or the political system is deficient, it does not follow that one should not love their country, which is an extension of love thy neighbor.

It is irrelevant as to whether or not voting is a good system, for the purposes of this discussion. The fact is, we have the right to vote, and to simply ignore it in spite of the sacrifices made for us to have this right, and, be indifferent to how political outcomes affect our Neighbors, is a sin. It is not loving towards our neighbors, and no amount of political theory can change that.

Oh now it's irrelevant? First it was a spiritual and practical good, and rational act, then since that doesn't hold water, it's about loving your neighbour? Loving your neighbour requires you to stay in your own lane, and not have an exaggerated self opinion, which voting requires not to mention also legitimizes the propagandization of the masses, of which you're trying to engage in the same despicable behaviour here. What happened to households when women were "given the right to vote"?

For outside reference

The not voting part isn't the real sinful part - it's the motivation and intention that causes one not to vote, which at root comes from pride. That pride is absolutely cancer for your soul, and by not voting you allow that cancer to grow and corrupt your very own soul.

Voting is always an important thing to do both on a spiritual and practical level.

---------------

Yes, obey is the wrong word, because there is no literal dictate to vote, but, I am referring to the fact that God gave us a democracy, and our ancestors suffered and bleed for the rights we have today, and to casually brush it off as irrelevant is a sinful act which does not show love to our ancestors, or the plight caused by political decisions in the real world.

Just like Baptist John showed a bare minimum of political concern, so must all good Christians as well.

Since the Scripture doesn't fit the situation, then why do you try to shoehorn it in? Or since you support the party that thinks "Israel is God's chosen people" you think that sort of loose exegesis flies here?

God gave us a limited amount of time and attention, and each person should focus on their own craft, and not necessarily politics.

Bullshit. Most won't suffer and bleed for "rights" it's too abstract, Of course they'll suffer and bleed for those they love.

The real question is what are your ties to, and how much does the Republican party pay you?

It shows that our country is in deep trouble, and needs us now more than ever. Do you just give up on someone when they fall on hard times?

Voting doesn't work the first time, so if you vote harder this time it will. I understand. We're done here.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I legitimately feel sorry for people that don't vote.

They feel so inconsequential and have given up to despair.

Living in a world where you feel you don't make a difference and feel SOOOO upset at that notion that you feel you must defend your apathetic state.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

I understand this discussion is poinless but you're looking at voting from a very narrow lense and assuming a whole bunch of presumptions are true.

This kind of ties in to racial differences I've noticed.

A black man gets pulled over and says "why are they [expletive] with me?" A white man gets pulled over and says "I wonder what I did wrong?". Such examples are countless and I have to shamelessly admit I sometimes admire the negro's ability to see things for what they are sometimes.

So let's take a step back. Okay. Voting is our civic duty. Okay, some cadidates are better than others. Okay, God wants me to do the little I can, anywhere I can.

So let's ask some broader questions since you don't understand the other perspective fully.

In this democracy, is the government's power derived from the people?

Is the government beholden to the people?

Does popular opinion dictate policy?

Does the government need your participation or want your participation?

Is voting the true outlet for our desires?

Can we hold the government accountable?

This is the difference between me and you. You believe, I don't believe.

It's unfortunate, tragic maybe, that you feel your neighbors are impeding on your happiness and the country's success anytime the voter turnout isn't 100%. I commend you for having such deep faith in other people's voices and such deep faith in the system. One can say you're true American. I don't mean that sarcastically. You're like a captain who wants to go down with the ship. Might be irrational but as a man I understand. I truly do.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I understand this discussion is poinless but you're looking at voting from a very narrow lense and assuming a whole bunch of presumptions are true.

This kind of ties in to racial differences I've noticed.

A black man gets pulled over and says "why are they [expletive] with me?" A white man gets pulled over and says "I wonder what I did wrong?". Such examples are countless and I have to shamelessly admit I sometimes admire the negro's ability to see things for what they are sometimes.

So let's take a step back. Okay. Voting is our civic duty. Okay, some cadidates are better than others. Okay, God wants me to do the little I can, anywhere I can.

So let's ask some broader questions since you don't understand the other perspective fully.

In this democracy, is the government's power derived from the people?

Is the government beholden to the people?

Does popular opinion dictate policy?

Does the government need your participation or want your participation?

Is voting the true outlet for our desires?

Can we hold the government accountable?

This is the difference between me and you. You believe, I don't believe.

It's unfortunate, tragic maybe, that you feel your neighbors are impeding on your happiness and the country's success anytime the voter turnout isn't 100%. I commend you for having such deep faith in other people's voices and such deep faith in the system. One can say you're true American. I don't mean that sarcastically. You're like a captain who wants to go down with the ship. Might be irrational but as a man I understand. I truly do.

I am 100 percent a true believer based off my own lived experience and witness growing up rurally and seeing local politics in action, and having partaken in the legal system via family court and having used my resources and the system to better my outcome, and having served my country and having read the Constitution to my Marines.

That said.

Let's accept all of narrative this as true for the sake of argument...

How do you create positive change in your life by not participating?

How do you do anything other than guarantee those who are aligned against you will subsume you by their actions while you bitch and bemoan the system?

Just because you vote doesn't mean you don't have secondary and tertiary means of resource and preparedness.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

How do you create positive change in your life by not participating?

My experience with cowardice has taught me that in life that might is right. People will do what you let them.

Nothing changes until someone overthrows someone else. Your dad will keep whooping your ass until you get a stepdad. In our case different elites have to overthrow jewish elites. At the moment they're all clicqued up so it's kind of irrelevant.

If you complain about my behavior, do I need to listen to you if I can intimidate you? If I'm mr tough guy and you're a meek little coward? Imagine it. What are your choices?

Well your first option is to hold your tongue. Remember, I'm unpredictable, maybe I'll embarrass you and make you feel small. Your second option is to appeal to emotion. "Excuse me sir but kids play here, can you please...".

Is that how you want to live? Is that how you want to interact with the government? Is that what we're counting on? "human decency"?

It's simple. I came to the conclusion that the government treats me like a dog. My task is to gain back any semblance of power and to force their hand.

Test boundaries, civil disobedience, don't follow orders, don't give them anything they want, be difficult!

Instead of coming to them, make them come to you. Reverse the balance of power even a little bit.

Maybe I'm retarded and insane but this is the strategy I'm going with.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

My experience with cowardice has taught me that in life that might is right. People will do what you let them.

Nothing changes until someone overthrows someone else. Your dad will keep whooping your ass until you get a stepdad. In our case different elites have to overthrow jewish elites. At the moment they're all clicqued up so it's kind of irrelevant.

If you complain about my behavior, do I need to listen to you if I can intimidate you? If I'm mr tough guy and you're a meek little coward? Imagine it. What are your choices?

Well your first option is to hold your tongue. Remember, I'm unpredictable, maybe I'll embarrass you and make you feel small. Your second option is to appeal to emotion. "Excuse me sir but kids play here, can you please...".

Is that how you want to live? Is that how you want to interact with the government? Is that what we're counting on? "human decency"?

It's simple. I came to the conclusion that the government treats me like a dog. My task is to gain back any semblance of power and to force their hand.

Test boundaries, civil disobedience, don't follow orders, don't give them anything they want, be difficult!

Instead of coming to them, make them come to you. Reverse the balance of power even a little bit.

Maybe I'm retarded and insane but this is the strategy I'm going with.

I'm trying to follow, so please forgive me if I'm misaligning your point...But...I'll run a parallel metaphor for you since you've gone into that.

I breed American Bulldogs. I grew up around them. I have had weimaraners/doberman's/golden retrievers/Rhodesian ridgebacks/schnauzers/pit bulls/standard poodles but they're the best I've found for everything I need.

I'm going to use one of my dogs as a parallel for why I vote vs put my head in the sand.

This dog pretty much embodies me.

I've got a male dog right now that's my main sire. He is huge for the breed (150+lbs) but I chose him to breed over the other dogs for 2 reasons: 1 his temperament around children and guests in the home and 2 his protective nature. He's not perfect and is maybe less obedient than his son dog which is an even better physical specimen and has been kennel trained since 8 weeks....but he's obedient enough I can trust him, and independent and smart enough I can leave him on the property and not worry about him wandering off nor attacking random cars driving by.

I have other dogs that in a dog fight would probably whip him... But the overarching thing is that he is going to continue to be bred over all my other dogs because of his PRODUCTIVE traits.

But let's not pretend that dog doesn't get a vote.

Dogs get a vote by their behavior. I've had to cull lots of dogs because of their behavior... But the ones that work within my Overton window get a day in my breeding program based off of the behaviors they exhibit.

Bulldogs are stubborn and sometimes you gotta be tough with them. They let you do that. You do it right and enforce rules they're familiar with and are in the man-dog social contract... They just put their head down and make a little growl as they walk into their kennel. When it reaches a point that you push them beyond where they can just accept being in trouble and you corner them, then they bite.

So here's the comparison:

So on one side you have the American Bulldog mentality of loyalty, duty to please and confidence that allows them to be ruled and on the other side you have the dog that has no personality and has no say in their future but has no auspices of being ruled.

If we both go to the pound...nature abhors a vacuum. So one dog might get adopted and the other will not.

Either way the opposite mentality is :

That dog is just waiting for the pound to go out of business and hoping that somehow in the resulting aftermath some zookeeper will be letting them out of their cage or at least throw them some scraps.

Versus the bulldog that knows how the system works and chooses to be an agent and self advocate.

 

[Lawrence87]

What you eat only affects you. Who you vote for, or not vote for, affects everyone.

That's not true though. The area I live in consistently votes a certain way. I am certainly not going to vote for either of the main parties. A vote for a small candidate who is never going to get in has precisely the same affect on everyone else as staying at home. Said effect being the guy who was going to win anyway wins anyway.

Perhaps there would be more of an argument if the area I was in was more genuinely contested, but these are rare. The system is basically rigged for red or blue. Neither of which I would be inclined to vote for. I live in the UK if that makes any difference, and I don't know if it is any different in America, but I do not see anything wrong in being totally disenfranchised by the system.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

Either way the opposite mentality is :

That dog is just waiting for the pound to go out of business and hoping that somehow in the resulting aftermath some zookeeper will be letting them out of their cage or at least throw them some scraps.

Versus the bulldog that knows how the system works and chooses to be an agent and self advocate.

If I'm getting you correctly this is a survival of the fittest metaphor. That kind of justifies Trump's behavior. If you can't beat them, join them. Yes, I wouldn't have to worry about anything if I was rich. If utilize the system for my benefit I would be golden.

The point I'm making is more about the masses.

What does average Joe do when a woman spits in his face? Probably locks himself in the bedroom to let her cool off.

What does average Joe do when he walks in on his wife getting pounded? "I'm packing my stuff Emily".

What does Average Joe do when coffee quadruples in price, you have to make it yourself and it's computer check out? "Oh my goodness, I have to redo my budget". As businesses learned with covid. We'll pay what ever they ask.

You get the point. Blacks don't respect us, the muslims don't respect us, and the government doesn't respect us. There are no concequences. Thats why some cow can do a press release and say 50 white men will never see daylight again because they drew a swastika. They know we'll just take it. Mumble under our breath.

Picture a boardroom meeting in a movie.

"Sir, we should be paying these guys half of what they're making."

"Joey, I love you but half my guys would walk if I did that"

Well no one is walking anymore. This is the situation that needs to be rectified. Yes, you can be aggressive with illegals or blacks but at the end of the day the government needs to fear you the most. They're the cause of the problems. The europeans try to elect right wingers and the government will not even throw them a bone. The best people can hope is some vague agnowledgement of some problem election time.

They fear the jew though. They appease the jew. It's not because he votes.

 

[TooFineAPoint]

I legitimately feel sorry for people that don't vote.

They feel so inconsequential and have given up to despair.

Living in a world where you feel you don't make a difference and feel SOOOO upset at that notion that you feel you must defend your apathetic state.

Your comments reveal how inconsequential you feel in all other areas of your life if you interpret not voting as having "given up to despair" and "living in a world where you feel you don't make a difference".

But since you have said elsewhere that you have kids, I will -- in good faith -- take your words on this topic as simply being loose or lazy. Since no serious father of any religious belief would hold voting as being more important than raising serious and ethical (Christian) kids.

Note I am not saying that you are claiming the above. Simply that it would be silly to characterize a man striving to be a good father but also not voting (or a man who is progressing/excelling at several other edifying accomplishments) at someone who has given up.

 

[Samseau]

Oh now it's irrelevant? First it was a spiritual and practical good, and rational act, then since that doesn't hold water, it's about loving your neighbour? Loving your neighbour requires you to stay in your own lane, and not have an exaggerated self opinion, which voting requires not to mention also legitimizes the propagandization of the masses, of which you're trying to engage in the same despicable behaviour here. What happened to households when women were "given the right to vote"?

What does staying one one's lane have to do with voting? I can plot a revolution and vote at the same time. You're not making any sense here, you obviously have a misconstrued idea of what it means to vote.

You think if someone votes, then they are just some meek little dude who accepts whatever happens in his life.

But the opposite is also true. A man who votes is also one plotting to overthrow the system, but he votes because he knows it will help him strategically and spiritually until the day of revolution comes.

The idea that voting and being a slave are the same thing is just a strawman on your part.

God gave us a limited amount of time and attention, and each person should focus on their own craft, and not necessarily politics.

Like voting takes any inordinate amount of time. Also, politics are important, you will be ruled by someone no matter what, so it makes sense to try and have a bit of say in the process.

Bullshit. Most won't suffer and bleed for "rights" it's too abstract, Of course they'll suffer and bleed for those they love.

Millions have died for the rights we have today, looks like you're in denial. It's also a grave sin to deny the sacrifices our ancestors made for us.

The real question is what are your ties to, and how much does the Republican party pay you?

Ah yes, someone has destroyed your arguments, that must mean they are being paid. Like, I wish I was being paid to do this. I would brag about it if I was, believe me.

Voting doesn't work the first time, so if you vote harder this time it will. I understand. We're done here.

How do you know what God has in store? Where is your faith? Vote, plot for change, and see what God does with it. But if you do nothing, God cannot help you.

That's not true though. The area I live in consistently votes a certain way. I am certainly not going to vote for either of the main parties. A vote for a small candidate who is never going to get in has precisely the same affect on everyone else as staying at home. Said effect being the guy who was going to win anyway wins anyway.

Perhaps there would be more of an argument if the area I was in was more genuinely contested, but these are rare. The system is basically rigged for red or blue. Neither of which I would be inclined to vote for. I live in the UK if that makes any difference, and I don't know if it is any different in America, but I do not see anything wrong in being totally disenfranchised by the system.

First, even if your area votes consistently in a certain pattern does not mean it cannot change. All areas around the world have changed voting patterns over time. Just because you don't think it will change anytime soon doesn't mean you actually know that.

Second, there are plenty of downballot candidates who you should vote for as an act of love towards your Neighbors. Choose those you believe will do the best job.

I live in a liberal area, and I routinely vote out women and POC if I get the chance. There are still small votes that will make an impact for someone, somewhere, in your community and it is the Christian's duty to care for the least among us.

If I'm getting you correctly this is a survival of the fittest metaphor. That kind of justifies Trump's behavior. If you can't beat them, join them. Yes, I wouldn't have to worry about anything if I was rich. If utilize the system for my benefit I would be golden.

The point I'm making is more about the masses.

What does average Joe do when a woman spits in his face? Probably locks himself in the bedroom to let her cool off.

What does average Joe do when he walks in on his wife getting pounded? "I'm packing my stuff Emily".

What does Average Joe do when coffee quadruples in price, you have to make it yourself and it's computer check out? "Oh my goodness, I have to redo my budget". As businesses learned with covid. We'll pay what ever they ask.

You get the point. Blacks don't respect us, the muslims don't respect us, and the government doesn't respect us. There are no concequences. Thats why some cow can do a press release and say 50 white men will never see daylight again because they drew a swastika. They know we'll just take it. Mumble under our breath.

Picture a boardroom meeting in a movie.

"Sir, we should be paying these guys half of what they're making."

"Joey, I love you but half my guys would walk if I did that"

Well no one is walking anymore. This is the situation that needs to be rectified. Yes, you can be aggressive with illegals or blacks but at the end of the day the government needs to fear you the most. They're the cause of the problems. The europeans try to elect right wingers and the government will not even throw them a bone. The best people can hope is some vague agnowledgement of some problem election time.

They fear the jew though. They appease the jew. It's not because he votes.

You make the same error of logic as Aboulia does above. You can vote and participate in the system while also plotting to overthrow or revolt. It is not mutually exclusive, and quite frankly I can't see what voting has to do with revolution.

I vote because it will help my Neighbors. Meanwhile I advocate for people to prepare for a collapse and get ready to fight, because it's also necessary to save my Neighbors. There's no contradiction.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Your comments reveal how inconsequential you feel in all other areas of your life if you interpret not voting as having "given up to despair" and "living in a world where you feel you don't make a difference".

But since you have said elsewhere that you have kids, I will -- in good faith -- take your words on this topic as simply being loose or lazy. Since no serious father of any religious belief would hold voting as being more important than raising serious and ethical (Christian) kids.

Note I am not saying that you are claiming the above. Simply that it would be silly to characterize a man striving to be a good father but also not voting (or a man who is progressing/excelling at several other edifying accomplishments) at someone who has given up.

Yes. 6 kids (all boys) and a 7th on the way glory to God!

I do think it's a manifestation of defeat to not participate in system and that is not the example I set for my children...as it was not the example that was set for me by my father.

You can rationalize it however you'd like but the behaviors are those that are shirking their duty and I form my opinion of people accordingly.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

How do you know what God has in store? Where is your faith? Vote, plot for change, and see what God does with it. But if you do nothing, God cannot help you.

Do you see how your theology shifted when you got to this point? This is because your argument is inconsistent, at least at this point.

You first began by saying that God accomplishes His will, regardless of ours, and that we should be thankful and act on His will. That's good stuff. That's good theology.

But now you are saying God cannot help us if we don't help ourselves, and by helping ourselves you mean voting.

Somethings gotta give.

You make the same error of logic as Aboulia does above. You can vote and participate in the system while also plotting to overthrow or revolt. It is not mutually exclusive, and quite frankly I can't see what voting has to do with revolution.

You are also making the same fallacy. Aboulia is arguing as if voting = slave of the system. But it doesn't have to be.
You are arguing that not voting = sinful and indifferent. It doesn't have to be but you insist that it is. That's where much of the disconnect is coming from.

 

[Aboulia]

What does staying one one's lane have to do with voting? I can plot a revolution and vote at the same time. You're not making any sense here, you obviously have a misconstrued idea of what it means to vote.

You think if someone votes, then they are just some meek little dude who accepts whatever happens in his life.

But the opposite is also true. A man who votes is also one plotting to overthrow the system, but he votes because he knows it will help him strategically and spiritually until the day of revolution comes.

The idea that voting and being a slave are the same thing is just a strawman on your part.

If that's what you do, then you're essentially playing the same game as the Pharisees while claiming to be of Christ, and your only actual gripe is that you don't have the power you desire. Oddly enough, this makes your detractors all the more right that you shouldn't be a mod, let alone, a priest which you once mentioned you were being considered for.

Not once have I argued that voting = being a slave. I think voting is completely irrational, and contributes towards the vulgarization/polarization of society as it encourages pride/self opinion. Your abuse of scripture/Christian concepts as a way to try to propagandize people towards your pet cause is what I take issue with,

Right now you are of the opinion that the party of the Democrats is evil. Yet the act of voting is somehow equivalent to loving your neighbour in your eyes. Is it still loving your neighbour if they vote with the wrong opinion?

And yes, I agree both sides are sinners, but this is to be expected in fallen world. All we can do, as Christians, it attempt to soothe this broken world as best we can. That means doing what we can to hurt Democrats, which is the demonic party par excellance. 100% Talmudic cabinet of Biden is more than enough proof, if you can't see the Dem party is far more evil than the Republican party then you just aren't looking. It's willful ignorance.

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Millions have died for the rights we have today, looks like you're in denial. It's also a grave sin to deny the sacrifices our ancestors made for us.

Again, the vast majority people don't go to fight and die for the abstract. They do it for those people they love, or compulsion/sense of shame. To illustrate, in your estimate, what percentage of the people that fought in the American Civil war, joined to fight primarily for the purpose of freeing black people from slavery in the South?

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

@Samseau

If you like to vote then you realized that people behave like herd animals. That’s why there is a two party system and not a 10 party system. The European system is actually designed to disenfranchise the voter, not give him more choices, but that’s beside the point.

So we have to think about “change” from that perspective. People are voting because they want to change something. When they do vote they also are looking around to see if the people around them are on the same page. People like consensus, it’s very important to them.

So we get to this predicament where a lot of effort is being put to try to change something using a method that is not working as intended.

It’s like most of your village men saying “we’re going to go hunt deer in the Arizona desert”.

They come back tired and defeated. You’re telling me that the effort is what counts.

What I want is for people to look around and see guys like me. For people to say “You’re not going to vote bud?” And for me to say “No, something not right here” that will hopefully give them pause. Eventually this attitude will pass the necessary threshold in public opinion because I’m pretty confident something is not right.

Everyone on this forum is red pilled so I don’t need to convince them of anything but we do have to try to “inspire” change in our community. You’re choosing to do it using the same methods that have been tried.

 

[Australia Sucks]

The most meaningful form of voting you can make is with your feet and your wallet. If a country/society is going downhill quickly its time to think about moving to a more functional society. You don't owe your country anything.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

The most meaningful form of voting you can make is with your feet and your wallet. If a country/society is going downhill quickly its time to think about moving to a more functional society. You don't owe your country anything.

Not all of us are rootless cosmopolitans.

Some of us have long heritage and history in our country and are going to take the hard path of fighting by all means possible.

Why should I leave and let others destroy that which my family has spent generations building just because times are challenging.