Marriage: Virgins vs Non-virgins

[Rational1]

Another big issue with dating in the western world is the reformed whore phenomena. I’ve run into several of these types, who seem be be transitioning into a more chaste status…but…they still give off all the red flags of a typical whore or e-whore, provocative social media (bikini pics), yoga practice, moderate or liberal political views, but “My faith is the most important part of my life.” Granted these have all been Catholic or Protestants.

I don’t know if it’s attention whoring or real whoring, but I’d just feel had if I got into a relationship with one of these and found she’d had tons of partners. (Which is probably the case)

 

[scorpion]

The more women I meet, the more I'm seeing how important it is to marry a virgin. I'm starting to think a single man under 35 and without kids would be insane to marry a woman that's had sex. Maybe it's bad luck, but every non-virgin I'm getting to know starts to eventually show red flags left and right.

Spoiler alert: all women show red flags. It's not a matter of finding a woman without red flags, it's about finding one whose red flags you can accept (and who can also accept yours - for none of us are without fault ourselves). The reality is that in this day and age, there are many worse red flags than simply being a non-virgin. Indeed, paradoxically, a normally attractive woman being a virgin past a certain age is itself a red flag, because it places her so far outside the current social norms that she is either a true godly Christian unicorn or more likely is psychologically/emotionally damaged in some serious way.

 

[scary_robot_music]

Spoiler alert: all women show red flags. It's not a matter of finding a woman without red flags, it's about finding one whose red flags you can accept (and who can also accept yours - for none of us are without fault ourselves). The reality is that in this day and age, there are many worse red flags than simply being a non-virgin. Indeed, paradoxically, a normally attractive woman being a virgin past a certain age is itself a red flag, because it places her so far outside the current social norms that she is either a true godly Christian unicorn or more likely is psychologically/emotionally damaged in some serious way.

What an odd idea that an unmarried woman being chaste is a "red flag."

My wife was in her late twenties when I met her and still a virgin. In her case it was B of the two possible reasons you gave. She was a very devout Catholic and I was the first guy she'd met who she was into who respected that and was OK with seeing her without sex. She'd also been raised to be wary of boys and she is very tall for her country, taller than most of the men, and I'm over 6'0. So all of that worked in my favor.

We've been together over ten years now and it's been pretty blissful. What I'm saying is that if any of you guys out there happen to find a virgin who's late twenties or more don't pass her up because she's a virgin. Not I think you would.

 

[scorpion]

What an odd idea that an unmarried woman being chaste is a "red flag."

Women are biologically hardwired to calibrate their behavior and opinions based on a social consensus filter. In other words, they are herd creatures by design. For this reason, normal female psychology results in all of the women within a given social framework adopting very similar patterns of thought and behavior. In a healthy society this produces social cohesion and reinforces desirable social norms. In a sick society like modern day clown world, it results in widespread promiscuity and other degeneracy. But the root psychology is the same: the instinctive female hive mind. This is why virginity in a grown woman can be a red flag these days: because unless she is highly religious (and likely ensconced within a tight-knit religious community/family) then her virginity can only be the result of highly aberrant psychology, either innate or trauma induced.

My wife was in her late twenties when I met her and still a virgin. In her case it was B of the two possible reasons you gave. She was a very devout Catholic and I was the first guy she'd met who she was into who respected that and was OK with seeing her without sex. She'd also been raised to be wary of boys and she is very tall for her country, taller than most of the men, and I'm over 6'0. So all of that worked in my favor.

We've been together over ten years now and it's been pretty blissful.

You are blessed, but you must recognize your personal anecdote falls well outside the norm.

 

[Douglas Quaid]

I've met a few women lately in their mid 20s that are very likely virgins. Usually they are too career oriented. Sometimes they are a serious Christian. Yes, they have red flags and seem a little off at times, but they are the manageable red flags scorpion is talking about. And I am aware of my faults too.

But the more women I meet that aren't virgins, the more their red flags are deal breakers. In my experience they are much more likely to be psychologically/emotionally damaged than the rare, mid to late 20s virgin. They are more likely to be a liability down the line. It looks like other men on here are more lenient, but I can't give serious commitment to a non-virgin. The only exception I'd consider is a woman that's only been with one man that she was committed to.

To each their own.

 

[scary_robot_music]

I've met a few women lately in their mid 20s that are very likely virgins. Usually they are too career oriented. Sometimes they are a serious Christian. Yes, they have red flags and seem a little off at times, but they are the manageable red flags scorpion is talking about. And I am aware of my faults too.

But the more women I meet that aren't virgins, the more their red flags are deal breakers. In my experience they are much more likely to be psychologically/emotionally damaged than the rare, mid to late 20s virgin. They are more likely to be a liability down the line. It looks like other men on here are more lenient, but I can't give serious commitment to a non-virgin. The only exception I'd consider is a woman that's only been with one man that she was committed to.

To each their own.

Yes. The idea that you should be concerned about a woman being a virgin at any age is very strange to me. Even if she's not religious, she may have just figured out that fornication is risky and bad for her soul, not to mention particularly emotionally damaging for women. I don't think of sins as an arbitrary list of dos and don'ts that God came up with at random. Sins are actions or inactions that harm you. Some people who don't believe in God at all figure out that for example, stealing or drinking are bad. Why not extramarital sex too?

On social media lately I've been seeing a lot of ridiculous posts about how you want a woman who's been with a lot of guys before you because she'll "know what she's doing in bed." The idea that virginity in a woman could be a "red flag" seems like a similar cope.

Again, not that I believe any single guy out there is actually going to meet a girl he likes and consider the fact that she's never given her body to another man a deal breaker.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Even if she's not religious, she may have just figured out that fornication is risky and bad for her soul, not to mention particularly emotionally damaging for women.

I have never met any non-religious woman who believed that fornication is "bad for her soul." Risky, yes. But never enough to outweigh the cost benefit.

I don't think of sins as an arbitrary list of dos and don'ts that God came up with at random. Sins are actions or inactions that harm you. Some people who don't believe in God at all figure out that for example, stealing or drinking are bad. Why not extramarital sex too?

If I went with your definition, it would be easy to rationalize fornication as not being sinful either, since many steps can be taken to virtually eliminate the risk.

I know you won't disagree with this, but God does not need an external reason, as if there is any higher than Himself, to justify His prohibition of sinful behaviors, no? In other words, if God prohibits something, then that is all the reason we need to not do it.

Watering down that transcendental category into a purely utilitarian one is where people find leeway for their sin.

 

[scorpion]

The reality is that the odds of the average 30+ year-old man having a happy, successful marriage with a non-virgin wife are vastly greater than him meeting, courting and marrying a <25 year-old virgin. There simply aren't enough virgins to go around these days, and the large majority of them are off the market by their early twenties. Meanwhile, there are plenty of quality non-virgin women in their mid to late twenties who are monogamously inclined and who have only dated/slept with 2-3 men. The profile of a woman of this type is that she had a serious high school/college boyfriend, then dated him or another guy through her mid-twenties, intending to marry him, but he ends up getting cold feet for whatever reason and breaking things off. A woman like that is still quality marriage material and would make a fine catch, and there are 100 of her for every 1 virgin of similar age. If you're dead set on chasing that one virgin, you're pretty much deluding yourself so severely that it's essentially a form of self-sabotage. It's literally the mirror image of the overweight 40 year-old woman who thinks she's too good to date any guy but a handsome millionaire.

 

[scary_robot_music]

I have never met any non-religious woman who believed that fornication is "bad for her soul." Risky, yes. But never enough to outweigh the cost benefit.


If I went with your definition, it would be easy to rationalize fornication as not being sinful either, since many steps can be taken to virtually eliminate the risk.

I know you won't disagree with this, but God does not need an external reason, as if there is any higher than Himself, to justify His prohibition of sinful behaviors, no? In other words, if God prohibits something, then that is all the reason we need to not do it.

Watering down that transcendental category into a purely utilitarian one is where people find leeway for their sin.

I have met such women, but I suppose that's neither here nor there. I suppose if some of you guys out there want to advise young men to avoid virgins for some reason, that's your prerogative, but it's very, very odd to me. And on the off chance there's an even stranger single young guy out there who's met a great girl who he likes and thinks might be wife material but has his doubts because she's a virgin...

Never mind. That guy's on his own. Even writing what I was going to write seems silly at this point.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I suppose if some of you guys out there want to advise young men to avoid virgins for some reason, that's your prerogative, but it's very, very odd to me

No one is saying that. All that's being said is that virginity is not the be-all-end-all.

 

[scary_robot_music]

The reality is that the odds of the average 30+ year-old man having a happy, successful marriage with a non-virgin wife are vastly greater than him meeting, courting and marrying a <25 year-old virgin. There simply aren't enough virgins to go around these days, and the large majority of them are off the market by their early twenties. Meanwhile, there are plenty of quality non-virgin women in their mid to late twenties who are monogamously inclined and who have only dated/slept with 2-3 men. The profile of a woman of this type is that she had a serious high school/college boyfriend, then dated him or another guy through her mid-twenties, intending to marry him, but he ends up getting cold feet for whatever reason and breaking things off. A woman like that is still quality marriage material and would make a fine catch, and there are 100 of her for every 1 virgin of similar age. If you're dead set on chasing that one virgin, you're pretty much deluding yourself so severely that it's essentially a form of self-sabotage. It's literally the mirror image of the overweight 40 year-old woman who thinks she's too good to date any guy but a handsome millionaire.

I mostly agree with you here. If you're planning on marrying an American woman who's not from some subculture like the Mormons the 2 to 3 notches you described is about as chaste as you're likely to get, and there's at least a chance such a woman wouldn't be too damaged to be a good wife. Back in my day (1990s and early 2000s) you could still find shy bookworm girls who were virgins and not Mormons or Amish or anything, but that might be a thing of the past now. I'm in my fifties, I wouldn't know.

There's always Latin America though, or other places in the world like it. No guarantees there, but that's where I found my wife. She has a very cute 20 year old relative who's also a devout Catholic and is getting married soon. I didn't ask if she's a virgin, but I'd guess she is. She has a few other female relatives who are of marriageable age who I'd guess are virgins.

I'm not saying that you should require a virgin though. That seems like a bad way to go about it. I just stumbled into meeting one and realizing that I should probably marry her because I wasn't likely to meet such a woman again. Not that her being a virgin was the most important thing, it was more a result of her being the kind of woman she is, if that makes sense.

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

Women are biologically hardwired to calibrate their behavior and opinions based on a social consensus filter. In other words, they are herd creatures by design. For this reason, normal female psychology results in all of the women within a given social framework adopting very similar patterns of thought and behavior. In a healthy society this produces social cohesion and reinforces desirable social norms. In a sick society like modern day clown world, it results in widespread promiscuity and other degeneracy. But the root psychology is the same: the instinctive female hive mind. This is why virginity in a grown woman can be a red flag these days: because unless she is highly religious (and likely ensconced within a tight-knit religious community/family) then her virginity can only be the result of highly aberrant psychology, either innate or trauma induced.

You are blessed, but you must recognize your personal anecdote falls well outside the norm.

Maybe she's just very high in disagreeableness, which I wouldn't necessarily call aberrant.

 

[SeekingTruth]

As @scorpion suggested. Do not holdout for a virgin. You're only asking for more pain later by delaying marriage (potentially never marrying) and risk not being able to have children. The question is also, are you a virgin?

 

[scary_robot_music]

As @scorpion suggested. Do not holdout for a virgin. You're only asking for more pain later by delaying marriage (potentially never marrying) and risk not being able to have children. The question is also, are you a virgin?

I strongly disagree with the last part. I was no Roosh, but I was also far from a virgin when I met my wife, who was. It's never been a problem between us.

Guys who are looking to get married, don't buy the blue pill lie that you somehow don't deserve a virgin if you happen to meet one and you want to marry her. On the theological side, just as a woman can repent for fornication, so can you. You shouldn't focus on finding a virgin, but if you do, go for it and don't feel you're somehow unworthy of her.

On the red pill side, most women don't care that you've been with other women. It's actually far more common for women to suspect there's something wrong with you and be turned off if you're a virgin. Even nice Christian girls, in my experience. It's a hard truth, but it is what it is. I'm not even sure how to advise my sons on this when they're older. I don't want to encourage fornication, but at the same time I know how the world in general and women in particular look at guys who are virgins.

Maybe the way to go is advising a son to be as manly as possible and project that he COULD if he wanted to but he doesn't because it's sinful. Tim Teebow would probably be the best example of this I can think of, for the Americans here who are old enough to remember him. For the non-Americans and younger guys, he was a devoutly Christian pro American Football player who was open about avoiding extramarital sex.

 

[san26]

I have met a lot of older virgins in poor countries (26+) , it seemed like they just focused on making money, and spending time with friends and family from a very young age. They were educated, higher earning girls in their respective country, but were average looking. They probably didn't want to settle with a poor local, but not good enough to get the top men in their country.

 

[Rational1]

I strongly disagree with the last part. I was no Roosh, but I was also far from a virgin when I met my wife, who was. It's never been a problem between us.

Guys who are looking to get married, don't buy the blue pill lie that you somehow don't deserve a virgin if you happen to meet one and you want to marry her. On the theological side, just as a woman can repent for fornication, so can you. You shouldn't focus on finding a virgin, but if you do, go for it and don't feel you're somehow unworthy of her.

On the red pill side, most women don't care that you've been with other women. It's actually far more common for women to suspect there's something wrong with you and be turned off if you're a virgin. Even nice Christian girls, in my experience. It's a hard truth, but it is what it is. I'm not even sure how to advise my sons on this when they're older. I don't want to encourage fornication, but at the same time I know how the world in general and women in particular look at guys who are virgins.

Maybe the way to go is advising a son to be as manly as possible and project that he COULD if he wanted to but he doesn't because it's sinful. Tim Teebow would probably be the best example of this I can think of, for the Americans here who are old enough to remember him. For the non-Americans and younger guys, he was a devoutly Christian pro American Football player who was open about avoiding extramarital sex.

Yeah and it’s exactly this lie that has created problems. A non virgin man can definitely marry a virgin woman as you have proven. I have male family members that were far from virgins and even descended into immoral fornication behavior in their youth, even to the point of banging very promiscuous women, but ended up marrying women that spent years discerning a vocation as high probability virgins.

The issue in churches is they become gossip mills from idiotic men who want the women for themselves or overprotective family members.

Also many members have no idea what they are talking about because they most likely failed at it and now want to convince other guys it can’t be done. So ignore them.

Is it easy? No way. But I bet the minute you leave the west those 1 in thousand virgins grow exponentially.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

blue pill lie that you somehow don't deserve a virgin

That’s a crazy word choice for advice towards men. No offence.

First of all, people talk of female nature but men have a “nature” as well. I would like a man to prove to me he’s some kind of rational actor operating in the abstract realm, above various animal laws and pressures. I don’t perceive myself in such a way. So virginity makes no difference to me from some kind of moralizing abstract sense. I perceive it the same way I would anything. Is there justifiable reason to believe a virgin woman is more beneficial to me?
Is it feasible to get a virgin?

The problem with the whole virgin thing is it’s very easy to turn it into a fantasy.

“Some woman who never felt the touch of a man, just eating out of my hand. Fascinated by everything I do, not having any experience to even begin to judge my actual SMV. Full submission.”

That’s the fantasy, at least it would be for me. Not sure what it is for everybody else.

That’s a very dangerous fantasy.

The reality is self-improvement for men and “success” in general is a very unpleasant process. What that means is, especially in the social sphere which dating is a part of, is you’re going to have to fail and fail hard. You’re going to be doing walks of shame, you’re going to feel embarrassed, people sometimes are going to look at you with disgust, you’re going to lose friends for being a failure, fail at first impressions, things that depend on other people will fall through because you won’t be good enough in that moment. It will sting.

So when it comes to dating and finding a wife you need to be prepared to experience that. By engaging in some kind of fantasy where in order for you to take a leap everything has to be smooth as butter, because your target is not suppose to hurt you since she’s “good” and “pure”, you’re going to stonewall your own pursuits that way.

It doesn’t mean a virgin isn’t viable, it just means you should be meeting and courting all normal women, you’re going to have to open yourself up and make yourself vulnerable to all of them. It doesn’t mean you have to date them seriously or have sex with them, it just means by closing yourself off to them defeats the purpose. You’re in the presence of women but you’re not actually interacting with them. Interaction is the best self-improvement. If you’re able to find a virgin along the way then the more power to you.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I hardly think people on here laying realities regarding the unlikelyhood of finding a virgin in the west is some sort of cope or pressure as @Rational1 suggests.

I dont have daughters, but if I had one that was marriage age, I'd expect her to be getting betrothed to a man in the church that was of like circumstances. Suggesting that men are gossiping with regard to their wishes for their children sounds like the speaking of a person who doesnt have children.

Of course all things are possible, but very unlikely. Of course, you're welcome to find a nice girl who'se just left the Mormon/LDS church... but if you do the reality, majority of women age 18-25 have had sex with atleast one partner, and the ones you meet in Church that have made it that far are far more likely to have parents expecting the same thing.

 

[scary_robot_music]

That’s a crazy word choice for advice towards men. No offence.

First of all, people talk of female nature but men have a “nature” as well. I would like a man to prove to me he’s some kind of rational actor operating in the abstract realm, above various animal laws and pressures. I don’t perceive myself in such a way. So virginity makes no difference to me from some kind of moralizing abstract sense. I perceive it the same way I would anything. Is there justifiable reason to believe a virgin woman is more beneficial to me?
Is it feasible to get a virgin?

The problem with the whole virgin thing is it’s very easy to turn it into a fantasy.

“Some woman who never felt the touch of a man, just eating out of my hand. Fascinated by everything I do, not having any experience to even begin to judge my actual SMV. Full submission.”

That’s the fantasy, at least it would be for me. Not sure what it is for everybody else.

That’s a very dangerous fantasy.

The reality is self-improvement for men and “success” in general is a very unpleasant process. What that means is, especially in the social sphere which dating is a part of, is you’re going to have to fail and fail hard. You’re going to be doing walks of shame, you’re going to feel embarrassed, people sometimes are going to look at you with disgust, you’re going to lose friends for being a failure, fail at first impressions, things that depend on other people will fall through because you won’t be good enough in that moment. It will sting.

So when it comes to dating and finding a wife you need to be prepared to experience that. By engaging in some kind of fantasy where in order for you to take a leap everything has to be smooth as butter, because your target is not suppose to hurt you since she’s “good” and “pure”, you’re going to stonewall your own pursuits that way.

It doesn’t mean a virgin isn’t viable, it just means you should be meeting and courting all normal women, you’re going to have to open yourself up and make yourself vulnerable to all of them. It doesn’t mean you have to date them seriously or have sex with them, it just means by closing yourself off to them defeats the purpose. You’re in the presence of women but you’re not actually interacting with them. Interaction is the best self-improvement. If you’re able to find a virgin along the way then the more power to you.

No offence, but I didn't read all of that. What I was saying is that the fact that you're not a virgin as a man doesn't mean it's impossible or somehow unfair for you to marry a woman who is. I don't know why this is hard for some of you here to understand. Fundamentally not understanding women is probably a lot of it. A man who has fornicated in the past is at least as likely to marry a virgin as a man who hasn't. If I had to guess, I'd say probably more likely.

If you were saying in your wall of text that such a man shouldn't insist on a virgin, I agree with you. I don't think anyone should, but if you can get a virgin it's preferable.

 

[Rational1]

No offence, but I didn't read all of that. What I was saying is that the fact that you're not a virgin as a man doesn't mean it's impossible or somehow unfair for you to marry a woman who is. I don't know why this is hard for some of you here to understand.

Because I suspect some guys making comments didn’t succeed at it and want to throw shade on those who did succeed in getting a virgin like yourself. I speak about this with certain members all the time. It’s competitiveness and ego. Most men (or people in general) operate in a state of envy. Instead of for example looking at you and thinking “Great for him, I’m happy for him and his wonderful family.” Your success probably makes them feel inadequate.

Fundamentally not understanding women is probably a lot of it. A man who has fornicated in the past is at least as likely to marry a virgin as a man who hasn't. If I had to guess, I'd say probably more likely.

Agree with your statement here.

If you were saying in your wall of text that such a man shouldn't insist on a virgin, I agree with you. I don't think anyone should, but if you can get a virgin it's preferable.

Agree it’s a matter of practicality at this point. When I was younger there were a few virgins I was in relationships with. I should have married one, but didn’t because I was brainwashed by society. It’s probably still possible today, but much more unlikely because the numbers are low and the age range. If you’re part of an integrated church community and grew up with their families it’s more likely.