Lifter's Lounge

[Batman]

Bench press is the most overrated lift. How often are you on your back pushing something off of you in nature and not using your hips/legs? Almost never. Bench press is largely an ego lift. How many guys can bench like you claim but when shtf can't run and jump into a fox hole to dodge incoming? How many have achillies that would rip in two the first time they really have to use them?

Bench matters not at all, most lifting matters not at all, if you are not doing plyometrics, jump training, sprinting, ect. If you only lift and don't do these functional exercises, it is a waste of time and you are training your body to be fragile.

The truest test of overall strength and fitness, imo, are ATG squats, deadlifts, pullups, dips, and your ability to do sprints, and probably your overall cardio fitness and flexibility as well.

I've noticed the majority of the big chested benchers straight up refuse to squat due to "bad knees" ok, that means you're not healthy. Many of them don't do any cardio/HIIT either. Good luck in a street fight if you can't even stay on your feet or get winded after 4 punches.

Some of the biggest test indicators of health and longevity (heard this from Peter Attia and Huberman), is your waist size, grip strength, and quickness in standing up from a seated position. A few others like that I don't recall off the top of my head. Grip strength is probably the biggest single indicator since lacking grip strength is directly correlated with risk of injury since poor grip strength prevents you from moving any weight properly. I'd imagine that your knee strength also matters a lot too but I'm not sure what the data says on that.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

The truest test of overall strength and fitness, imo, are ATG squats, deadlifts, pullups, dips, and your ability to do sprints, and probably your overall cardio fitness and flexibility as well.

I've noticed the majority of the big chested benchers straight up refuse to squat due to "bad knees" ok, that means you're not healthy. Many of them don't do any cardio/HIIT either. Good luck in a street fight if you can't even stay on your feet or get winded after 4 punches.

Some of the biggest test indicators of health and longevity (heard this from Peter Attia and Huberman), is your waist size, grip strength, and quickness in standing up from a seated position. A few others like that I don't recall off the top of my head. Grip strength is probably the biggest single indicator since lacking grip strength is directly correlated with risk of injury since poor grip strength prevents you from moving any weight properly. I'd imagine that your knee strength also matters a lot too but I'm not sure what the data says on that.

I think this is right for the most part but one point I'd say...about squats...

I don't agree about he ATG squats personally. I frequently got back pain from the ATG Style squats....Bringing you knee forward beyond your toe will result in sheering... As long as you're breaking the hip crease/parallel you are reaching all the needed range of motion for proper tissue development.

More people do have bad knees due to very very poor squat mechanics. If you instead learn to squat with a vertical shin, you will preferentially load the hips and hamstrings.

That's why I actually like a box squat which brakes up the eccentric/concentric chain and forces form and mechanics.

I agree with your general point...and I don't mean to sound pedantic... Just been my experience that squating parallel with a wider stance and sitting back/lowering the hips is the way to go. I've actually used this on my wife, who has almost no cartilage in her knee... And could not squat knees over toes style...to be able to squat over her bodyweight using a " powerlifting" style box squat. This also helped with her getting back into lifting post baby... She doesn't have the hip mobility right now... So we use a box and I take out a mat each week so she gets about 1/4 in lower.

 

[Rodion]

I think this is right for the most part but one point I'd say...about squats...

I don't agree about he ATG squats personally. I frequently got back pain from the ATG Style squats....Bringing you knee forward beyond your toe will result in sheering... As long as you're breaking the hip crease/parallel you are reaching all the needed range of motion for proper tissue development.

More people do have bad knees due to very very poor squat mechanics. If you instead learn to squat with a vertical shin, you will preferentially load the hips and hamstrings.

That's why I actually like a box squat which brakes up the eccentric/concentric chain and forces form and mechanics.

I agree with your general point...and I don't mean to sound pedantic... Just been my experience that squating parallel with a wider stance and sitting back/lowering the hips is the way to go. I've actually used this on my wife, who has almost no cartilage in her knee... And could not squat knees over toes style...to be able to squat over her bodyweight using a " powerlifting" style box squat. This also helped with her getting back into lifting post baby... She doesn't have the hip mobility right now... So we use a box and I take out a mat each week so she gets about 1/4 in lower.

My legs are so long that the rippetoe squat was the only way I could squat pain free. I tried to do beautiful Clarence Kennedy squats but it just kills my knees because they’re about 6 yards in front of my toes

There’s also the emotional damage of a 200kg back squat and a 150 front squat with DYEL legs

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

The truest test of overall strength and fitness, imo, are ATG squats, deadlifts, pullups, dips, and your ability to do sprints, and probably your overall cardio fitness and flexibility as well.

I've noticed the majority of the big chested benchers straight up refuse to squat due to "bad knees" ok, that means you're not healthy. Many of them don't do any cardio/HIIT either. Good luck in a street fight if you can't even stay on your feet or get winded after 4 punches.

Some of the biggest test indicators of health and longevity (heard this from Peter Attia and Huberman), is your waist size, grip strength, and quickness in standing up from a seated position. A few others like that I don't recall off the top of my head. Grip strength is probably the biggest single indicator since lacking grip strength is directly correlated with risk of injury since poor grip strength prevents you from moving any weight properly. I'd imagine that your knee strength also matters a lot too but I'm not sure what the data says on that.

There are a lot of ways to test strength. I guess the "World's Strongman" contests were great because rarely was the weight just completely balanced and it involved movement with the weight, not just a single range of motion, which greatly benefits some v. others.

It is hard to say, is your typical NBA player, who may not bench press 225 or only get it a few times, strong? Catch them on the basketball court and you find out right away that their height and leverage would shove most any normal guy around. This isn't even counting the fact they can touch over 11 feet high when they jump. But at the same time, in the gym they don't put up impressive weight, and in the big picture, that doesn't matter.

All in all, the best we can do is compete against ourselves to make ourselves the best and most anti-fragile version we can become.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

There are a lot of ways to test strength. I guess the "World's Strongman" contests were great because rarely was the weight just completely balanced and it involved movement with the weight, not just a single range of motion, which greatly benefits some v. others.

It is hard to say, is your typical NBA player, who may not bench press 225 or only get it a few times, strong? Catch them on the basketball court and you find out right away that their height and leverage would shove most any normal guy around. This isn't even counting the fact they can touch over 11 feet high when they jump. But at the same time, in the gym they don't put up impressive weight, and in the big picture, that doesn't matter.

All in all, the best we can do is compete against ourselves to make ourselves the best and most anti-fragile version we can become.

No they are not strong most often.

Compare that to football players. MOST of them are in fact strong because they have an off season weight room program as part of their training regime.

They have a sport specific skilll.... but that is not a strength display.

They have athletic specialization but not absolute strength.

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

No they are not strong most often.

Compare that to football players. MOST of them are in fact strong because they have an off season weight room program as part of their training regime.

They have a sport specific skilll.... but that is not a strength display.

They have athletic specialization but not absolute strength.

What is "strong"? The would should people around in an open field with their height/leverage/quick twitch fibers/etc.

We all have our definition of "strong". I see a guy who can make millions a year, playing sport, to be "stronger" than guys at the globo gym squatting 4 plates. Could they squat 4 plates? No? Does it matter? Not to me or the millions of dollars they make because they have a more desired and high performance genetic trait.

 

[Hannibal]

Goerner (enormous German lifter who deadlifted 700 lbs with one hand, complete with a toothbrush moustache) said that your tests of strength are

1) what you can pick up

2) what you can put overhead

3) what you can carry

I would have to agree.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

What is "strong"? The would should people around in an open field with their height/leverage/quick twitch fibers/etc.

We all have our definition of "strong". I see a guy who can make millions a year, playing sport, to be "stronger" than guys at the globo gym squatting 4 plates. Could they squat 4 plates? No? Does it matter? Not to me or the millions of dollars they make because they have a more desired and high performance genetic trait.

Dude you're just arguing to argue here. Soviet Scientists did so much study on strength, that was then perfected here in the US by coaches like Charles Poliquin and Louie Simmons and Fred Hatfield.

There is a difference between a strength skill and an athletic skill.

There is such thing as a quantifiable thing called "strenght"

In sport it is the display of maximal weight.

The maximal strength of a muscle or a group of muscles in a given movement equals the highest external resistance an athlete can overcome or hold with full voluntary mobilization of his or her neuromuscular system according to Platonov (1997) and Tidow (1990). This definition also is found in Science of Sports Training by Thomas Kurz (2016).

It is measured in force production.
force = mass * acceleration.

https://www.westside-barbell.com/blogs/the-blog/the-theory-of-developing-maximal-strength

 

[Hannibal]

What is "strong"? The would should people around in an open field with their height/leverage/quick twitch fibers/etc.

We all have our definition of "strong". I see a guy who can make millions a year, playing sport, to be "stronger" than guys at the globo gym squatting 4 plates. Could they squat 4 plates? No? Does it matter? Not to me or the millions of dollars they make because they have a more desired and high performance genetic trait.

If you put a 500 lb weight in front of a basketball player who makes millions a year and a soccer coach with two kids who lifts on the weekends once in a while, and only the soccer coach can pick up that weight, he is stronger.

 

[mountainaire]

I was watching this interview with Georges St. Pierre, and he has this theory that "everyone has an optimal bodyweight" depending on your genetics, and that he had to go above that when he went up a weight class to challenge for the MW title at the end of his career, and he felt a lot of negative health consequences as a result. After he retired he lost some weight and went back down to what he calls his "natural weight".

It got me thinking about my own experience of lifting, gaining weight mainly to get stronger, at 6'2" I weighed probably 175 at age 18, very lean. Later on I started lifting and eating like crazy to put on muscle, and I got up to about 230 lbs, some added fat, but more muscle as well. I got stronger for sure, but I noticed that I didn't feel great weighing 230. I'd go on hikes and struggle on hills that I used to fly up with ease, and generally got out of breath easier. And I sure didn't like having to eat like a pig to maintain that weight.

Not sure what my "optimal" bodyweight would be, but this go 'round as I'm getting back into lifting my plan is to just eat healthy/normal and just let my bodyweight be whatever it ends up being instead of making the goal to increase it.

 

[FrancisK]

I was watching this interview with Georges St. Pierre, and he has this theory that "everyone has an optimal bodyweight" depending on your genetics, and that he had to go above that when he went up a weight class to challenge for the MW title at the end of his career, and he felt a lot of negative health consequences as a result. After he retired he lost some weight and went back down to what he calls his "natural weight".

It got me thinking about my own experience of lifting, gaining weight mainly to get stronger, at 6'2" I weighed probably 175 at age 18, very lean. Later on I started lifting and eating like crazy to put on muscle, and I got up to about 230 lbs, some added fat, but more muscle as well. I got stronger for sure, but I noticed that I didn't feel great weighing 230. I'd go on hikes and struggle on hills that I used to fly up with ease, and generally got out of breath easier. And I sure didn't like having to eat like a pig to maintain that weight.

Not sure what my "optimal" bodyweight would be, but this go 'round as I'm getting back into lifting my plan is to just eat healthy/normal and just let my bodyweight be whatever it ends up being instead of making the goal to increase it.

We have the same story and we are the same size, now and then. Where are you at now? Did you play any sports? What age was it that you realized that you were just permanently wider?

 

[DanielH]

I was watching this interview with Georges St. Pierre, and he has this theory that "everyone has an optimal bodyweight" depending on your genetics, and that he had to go above that when he went up a weight class to challenge for the MW title at the end of his career, and he felt a lot of negative health consequences as a result. After he retired he lost some weight and went back down to what he calls his "natural weight".

I've heard an alternative theory explaining the same thing, instead of an optimal weight, we have an upper comfortable body fat limit, and a lower comfortable body fat limit. The lower limit is a starvation limit, and the upper is a predation limit, where we become easy prey for animals and other people. Doesn't really matter which theory is correct, but it makes total sense to me that our bodies have a body fat range they want to be kept at.

My theory - nowadays most people are too fat, so their bodies give them negative signals telling them they need to course correct, which make them feel bad. However, because of their extremely nutrient deficient processed junk diets, their bodies are also telling them to eat more to get more nutrition. So there's two competing negative signals there and the end result is depression and the only solutions are to dramatically change one's diet or start exercising more. Both are difficult.

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

Dude you're just arguing to argue here. Soviet Scientists did so much study on strength, that was then perfected here in the US by coaches like Charles Poliquin and Louie Simmons and Fred Hatfield.

There is a difference between a strength skill and an athletic skill.

There is such thing as a quantifiable thing called "strenght"

In sport it is the display of maximal weight.

The maximal strength of a muscle or a group of muscles in a given movement equals the highest external resistance an athlete can overcome or hold with full voluntary mobilization of his or her neuromuscular system according to Platonov (1997) and Tidow (1990). This definition also is found in Science of Sports Training by Thomas Kurz (2016).

It is measured in force production.
force = mass * acceleration.

https://www.westside-barbell.com/blogs/the-blog/the-theory-of-developing-maximal-strength

But picking up a bar off the floor is not a constant notification of strength (one guy lifts it one foot another required to lift it 18 inches), not to mention joint angle advantages in relation to the bar movement.

Get on the athletic field and go against a guy who can't lift as much as you but is a pro-athlete. You will find angles and joints in the real world on the athletic field don't always translate to the gym and certainly don't translate as a constant. Yes, lifting weights will help and is a great recommendation, but it isn't the end all measure in strength.

 

[DanielH]

But picking up a bar off the floor is not a constant notification of strength

Yes, lifting weights will help and is a great recommendation, but it isn't the end all measure in strength.

Sounds like cope to me bro. It's like saying Zeus can't be called more strong than Hermes because Hermes can run around faster and handle balls with more ease. "Sure bro you can pick up a minotaur and throw him from Sparta to Athens, but let me see how that translates to actually running a message from Olympus to Hades and back whilst avoiding Cerberus and the sirens."

Once again, I am asking you to start your own thread with whatever your idea of strength is, separate from the LIFTERS LOUNGE.

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

View attachment 3612

Sounds like cope to me bro. It's like saying Zeus can't be called more strong than Hermes because Hermes can run around faster and handle balls with more ease.

Once again, I am asking you to start your own thread with whatever your idea of strength is, separate from the LIFTERS LOUNGE.

It isn't a cope or not a cope, it is just an old guy telling young guys to watch for things like joints, conditioning, functional strength (one leg squats, plyometrics), etc. That is the reason I am still able to do what I do. That and things like the deadlift, squat and bench are great exercises but far from a be all/end all measurement, which is why you see few professional athletes even perform them.

I will start my own thread on functional/real world strength/longevity, longevity being the big key.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

But picking up a bar off the floor is not a constant notification of strength (one guy lifts it one foot another required to lift it 18 inches), not to mention joint angle advantages in relation to the bar movement.

Get on the athletic field and go against a guy who can't lift as much as you but is a pro-athlete. You will find angles and joints in the real world on the athletic field don't always translate to the gym and certainly don't translate as a constant. Yes, lifting weights will help and is a great recommendation, but it isn't the end all measure in strength.

This is arguing in circles and we are talking about two different things as I've established.

Again ... You are talking about a sport skill.

And this is the Lifting Lounge...not the "high jump, football hands" thread.

A wrestler who can suplex me is great at his sport.

But I'm likely still stronger with my 550 lb deadlift.

There are tons and tons of track and field athletes who do heavy weightlifting in addition to their sport.

Louie Simmons wrote a book about this,(and trained Olympian Gold medalists) and Charles Poliquin trained gold medalists in wrestling and also...in both cases they raised absolute strength.

 

[DanielH]

I'll say this, if I needed someone to carry me out of a burning building or out of a combat zone, or do more mundane things like carry two buckets of joint compound or drywall up to the second story, I'm choosing @Get2choppaaa. The drywall/joint compound example is a real example for me. I worked construction. Yes, endurance is very important, however so is grip strength. I struggled to carry drywall or 2 buckets of joint compound. I wish I was lifting at the time, the grip strength would have helped tremendously.

More personal stuff, I got a SLAP tear in high school playing football, and again 6 months ago from doing pullups in the same shoulder. In both cases my form was less than ideal. I then developed tendonitis in my other shoulder because I was trying to pick up and carry my 30lb son using my strong shoulder and overworked it. For context, I couldn't curl a 6 pound weight at my worst, just a few months ago. For my physical therapy, after about a month of band and mobility exercises, I was told to start lifting weights if I ever wanted to lift heavy things again, so that's what I did, and now my son feels lighter than before and I can pick him up over my head, throw and catch him, spin him around, easier than before, despite him getting bigger. I'm also much more aware of safe lifting practices.

So the idea that weightlifting is not functional sounds like pure cope to me.

 

[MrRedsquare]

Look up the Armstrong pullups method for chins. Do that... It's very easy and you can get 20 chins in about 6-8 weeks if you're already doing 10

Would you advise doing chin ups/pull ups on their own on a rest day? to improve form and get the maximum strength gain?

Also would you advise warming up first before hitting the bar to avoid injury (I have sore elbows).

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Would you advise doing chin ups/pull ups on their own on a rest day? to improve form and get the maximum strength gain?

Also would you advise warming up first before hitting the bar to avoid injury (I have sore elbows).

Just depends on how many days you're working out.

I found for pullups it was a volume/days per weak thing. A heavy day and a working set day would be 2 ways to start.

If you're doing weighted pullups... Id do them after you're good and warm...I used to do pushups in between sets of pullups.

 

[MrRedsquare]

Just depends on how many days you're working out.

I found for pullups it was a volume/days per weak thing. A heavy day and a working set day would be 2 ways to start.

If you're doing weighted pullups... Id do them after you're good and warm...I used to do pushups in between sets of pullups.

Five days a week at the moment - Not weighted pull-ups as yet, only got a minimal home gym (pull up bar and a bench).

Thanks for the response.