Discussing Hell and Eternal Damnation

Just as we are born into corruption by first Adam, so the faithful are born again into life by the Second Adam. Just as in first Adam all die (the proof in the pudding), so through Second Adam all will be made alive.

This gets to the heart of the OP. God created man for life. Life is the meaning (“What is the meaning of life” gets it backwards). Life is to be in Communion with the Blessed Trinity. This is ultimately achieved through the Incarnation of the Logos, Who attained perfect wisdom (knowledge of good and evil) for man and reigns in our manhood as King of the cosmos.

Satan didn’t like the plan of man reigning and wanted the angels regents to retain power indefinitely. He thwarted man’s path to wisdom by inciting him to the tree prematurely and did everything in his power to corrupt humanity thereafter (Nephilim, Flood, Egypt, Canaan, pagan deities—all satanic). He’s still at it, but he’s defeated. Locked out of heaven now. Christ is King. Hell is the prison God has prepared for Satan and his angels, to which he will be consigned at the Parousia.

Man is not meant for hell. All men—even the unregenerate—will participate in Christ’s resurrection on the last day. But the sons of Satan will go with their father to the place prepared for him. And he will eat their dust eternally. It isn’t pleasant. It wasn’t supposed to be like that. But it is what it is. There is no fellowship between Light and darkness.
 
So it could be said that God gave us death for our redemption not for our punishment.
That was my point as well.
My ultimate contention is that if we are not guilty of Adam's sin then God is punishing us despite us being innocent.
You keep looking at life, ironically, as if this current, temporal life (the earthly life) is the only one. That's what disables your ability to see past the incorrect teachings you've inherited. It's the same type of thinking that also believes that the Saints, who are "dead" aren't alive, or aren't praying for others. Bad theology.
Life is the meaning (“What is the meaning of life” gets it backwards).
Exactly. And this also proves the above, which is that living is something that is eternal, while this world isn't. We aren't being punished, we are being given the ability to be "saved" and aligning ourselves with God for eternity. That's far from "punishment". Still, we have to deal with the temporal consequences of having inherited a fallen nature. We can't be more clear about this because it is coherent and the correct theology, while GodFather's theology or traditional teachings don't make sense in explaining what's going on = "you're being punished by a loving God". No.

As I've said before, this is how the story had to be in order for us to not be automatons and willingly align ourselves to truth. Yes, it is very complicated and mysterious because we aren't very good judges and we inherited all sorts of things, including gifts, frailties, propensity to sin and all other manners of madness. Discerning how one should be judged is therefore impossible for us, since we don't see everything, and even what we see is veiled (St. Paul). That's the point of the appearing of our Lord (parousia), because He hasn't gone anywhere, He's always with us. In our current state, most of us have a very hard time lifting this veil and seeing clearly. Still, there are others who don't try and even others who have no interest in trying. That's why St. Paul also said that he became all things to all people so that some might be "saved."
 
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You keep looking at life, ironically, as if this current, temporal life (the earthly life) is the only one. That's what disables your ability to see past the incorrect teachings you've inherited. It's the same type of thinking that also believes that the Saints, who are "dead" aren't alive, or aren't praying for others. Bad theology.
I've been warning of hell since my first post in this thread. And also described Heaven as a Biblical reality. Never have I denied the afterlife. You're projecting unbiblical theology onto me.
 
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Given that Orthodox and Catholics shared this council as it was 600 years pre-schism... What is it that you're expecting would be different?
I never knew that Pelagianism was condemned as a heresy in 418.

Anyways, the issue that Augustine faced with Pelagianism is the logical conclusion that if humans are not stained with original sin, then there is no need, theoretically, for the Church's sanctifying grace. Furthermore, if someone could be perfect without the Church, then there would be no need for Jesus's sacrifice because that person could be pleasing to God and worthy of heaven on his own. I don't see how the Orthodox position (which I still don't really understand, tbh) avoids that conclusion.

Additionally, I don't understand logically how you can still suffer the effect of original sin without being guilty of it. If you can, then it's unjust, as you are being punished for a crime that you didn't commit and bear no fault for. That's why in the Catholic dogma of Immaculate Conception, Mary (who was the only creature not born of original sin) did not suffer the pains of child birth and was assumed into heaven. Augustine and the Catholic Church realized, correctly, that it would be unjust to punish someone of original sin when she did share in its guilt.
 
Another important factor is death is not necessarily a curse in the Orthodox viewpoint. Through Adam's transgression we encounter many negative effects as outlined in Genesis. If death did not result from this we would all be condemned to eternity in a fallen world. Yes death is also a negative in some ways, it is a source of fear which leads us to sin, but it was also given so that ultimately Christ could redeem us from the results of Adam's transgression. So it could be said that God gave us death for our redemption not for our punishment.
That's a precarious position because it's ultimately says that Adam's transgression of God was good because it eventually leads to our salvation. That's the issue that Pelagianism falls into. We cannot say that the disobedience of God can be a good thing because then it would encourage us to be consequentialists in sense. It relates to the argument that aborting children is "good" because it allows the children a "free" ticket to heaven, rather than risking eternal perdition by sinning on earth. Yes, we are disobeying God by aborting the children, but the ultimately effect is a net benefit for the child, so it's good. That's why the Catholic position is logically consistent. Children who are not baptized suffer from the stain of original sin and cannot be pleasing to God, so they cannot enter the beatific vision.
 
That's a precarious position because it's ultimately says that Adam's transgression of God was good because it eventually leads to our salvation. That's the issue that Pelagianism falls into. We cannot say that the disobedience of God can be a good thing because then it would encourage us to be consequentialists in sense. It relates to the argument that aborting children is "good" because it allows the children a "free" ticket to heaven, rather than risking eternal perdition by sinning on earth. Yes, we are disobeying God by aborting the children, but the ultimately effect is a net benefit for the child, so it's good. That's why the Catholic position is logically consistent. Children who are not baptized suffer from the stain of original sin and cannot be pleasing to God, so they cannot enter the beatific vision.
Nonsense. Just because someone shows compassion in the degree to which they punish someone, doesn't mean what the person being punished did was good. You need to stop parroting this Pelagianism nonsense. Orthodoxy does not affirm it.
 
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I never knew that Pelagianism was condemned as a heresy in 418.

Anyways, the issue that Augustine faced with Pelagianism is the logical conclusion that if humans are not stained with original sin, then there is no need, theoretically, for the Church's sanctifying grace. Furthermore, if someone could be perfect without the Church, then there would be no need for Jesus's sacrifice because that person could be pleasing to God and worthy of heaven on his own. I don't see how the Orthodox position (which I still don't really understand, tbh) avoids that conclusion.

Additionally, I don't understand logically how you can still suffer the effect of original sin without being guilty of it. If you can, then it's unjust, as you are being punished for a crime that you didn't commit and bear no fault for. That's why in the Catholic dogma of Immaculate Conception, Mary (who was the only creature not born of original sin) did not suffer the pains of child birth and was assumed into heaven. Augustine and the Catholic Church realized, correctly, that it would be unjust to punish someone of original sin when she did share in its guilt.

I'm not trying to be a pedant but I don't know if it's fair to lump the Roman doctrine of The Immaculate Conception with St. Augustine in the 5th century; from what little I know that doctrine originated in the late middle ages and was codified in the 19th century.
 
Nonsense. Just because someone shows compassion in the degree to which they punish someone, doesn't mean what the person being punished did was good. You need to stop parroting this Pelagianism nonsense. Orthodoxy does not affirm it.
Perhaps we got off on the wrong foot. I'm not attacking Orthodoxy, nor are my questions born out of ill will. I see my Orthodox brothers as brothers in Christ, whom I deeply respect and admire. I think we have much more in common than we have differences. I simply do not understand the Orthodox position. Outside of the internet world, there's not much knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox position in the Western, Catholic world. When my wife was going through her catechism with a Catholic priest, I attended and would ask him questions about Eastern Orthodox, and he wouldn't know the answers. I believe the reason is two fold. First, Catholicism is mostly concerned with Protestants as the vast majority of criticism of Catholics come from Protestants. Second, most philosophical and theological texts for Eastern Orthodox are not translated to English and are hard to find.

The reason I'm interested in the Orthodox position on Original Sin in this thread is because, at least from the Catholic perspective, one cannot talk about hell without talking about God's will, and one cannot talk about God's will without talking about grace, and one cannot talk about grace without talking about original sin. As such, I'm trying to understand (and I mean that genuinely), how the Orthodox position addresses the issue of hell when it does not accept the doctrine of original sin. And the thing is the entire Western church, including the vast amount of Protestants, accept the doctrine of original sin, so I'm trying to ground myself in a completely different position on the topic. As I'm searching to understand, I'm trying to draw in doctrines I do understand, like Pelagianism, to ground myself. The reason I chose Pelagianism is because the Orthodox position has been described, at least to my knowledge, as a form of semi-Pelagianism.

As for my comments above, perhaps I didn't express it properly. If we claim that God is the perfect good, then any deviance from the will of God must be bad, both in cause (i.e the action) and in effect (i,e. the result). As such, the disobedience of Adam (i.e. the action) must have only produced bad outcomes (i.e the effects of death and the pain of childbirth). Additionally, we also claim that God is perfectly just. As such, His punishment (or the effect of His prefect Will and Intellect) must be equal to the cause. Therefore, if we all suffer from the effect of original sin, we must also be the cause of it. Otherwise, we are saying that God is punishing us (effect) for no cause. That's why I brought up the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin (i.e. the cause), and so she did not have the effect (i.e. pain of childbirth and death).

Again, I don't mean any meanness here, so forgive me if it comes across that way 🙏
 
I'm not trying to be a pedant but I don't know if it's fair to lump the Roman doctrine of The Immaculate Conception with St. Augustine in the 5th century; from what little I know that doctrine originated in the late middle ages and was codified in the 19th century.
The doctrine of Immaculate Conception was codified as a dogma later in the Catholic Church, but it's always been held by the Church. Not all of what the Catholic Church teaches is codified as infallible dogma. For example, the Catholic Church on the state of hell has never been taught as a dogma of the faith, which is why you can, theoretically, be a Catholic and a Universalist.
 
Again, I don't mean any meanness here, so forgive me if it comes across that way 🙏

I don't currently have the time to respond fully to your comments. However the reason I was rather short with you is because I see you mentioning Pelagianism in reference to Orthodoxy multiple times in this thread. It has been pointed out that Orthodoxy does not affirm Pelagianism. As someone who js somewhat familiar with the Orthodox services I can confirm that we condem it in our services along with Arianism and Nestorianism and so forth. So whatever connection you are trying to get at between the two is evidently false.

So with that said, consider that any parallels you think you might see between Orthodoxy and Pelagianism are merely a matter of your own ignorance or misunderstanding rather than a reflection of the Orthodox position. Orthodoxy does not affirm Pelagianism, it resolutely condemns it.
 
I've been reading about the issue further, and it seems to be originally called "ancestral sin" which has been classified as both Synergism and semi-Pelagianism. Is there any dogmatic teachings on this by the Orthodox churches? Can any of you Orthodox point me to any good resources on this topic?
Here is an explanation of the Orthodox Christian understanding of original/ancestral sin from Fr. Michael Pomazansky’s Orthodox Dogmatic Theology. This is the subsection titled “Original Sin” from chapter 5 “Concerning Evil and Sin”. Pomazansky was a hieromonk (monk priest) professor at Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville, where this book continues to be used in the seminary training there. Fr. Michael was an old school Russian priest, very connected to the authentic Russian tradition, and this book has some authority. The translation is by Fr. Seraphim Rose. There are several extensive footnotes, but I have only included a portion of one of the various footnotes that accompanied this quote, as it would have increased the already considerable length of this quote.

In brief, the Orthodox position is that, from Adam’s sin, we inherited (1) death, disease and decline and (2) a propensity to sin, but we did not inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin.

By original sin is meant the sin of Adam, which was transmitted to his descendants and weighs upon them. The doctrine of original sin has great significance in the Christian worldview, because upon it rests a whole series of other dogmas.
The word of God teaches us that through Adam “all have sinned”: By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Rom. 5:12). For who will be clean of defilement? No one, if he have lived even a single day upon earth (Job 14:4-5, Septuagint). For behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother bear me (Ps. 50:5); “the seed of corruption is in me” (Evening Prayers).
The common faith of the ancient Christian Church in the existence of original sin may be seen in the Church’s ancient custom of baptizing infants. The Local Council of Carthage in 252, composed of 66 bishops under the presidency of St. Cyprian, decreed the following against heretics: “Not to forbid (the Baptism) of an infant who, scarcely born, has sinned in nothing apart from that which proceeds from the flesh of Adam. He has received the contagion of the ancient death through his very birth [See footnote 10], and he comes, therefore, the more easily to the reception of the remission of sins in that it is not his own but the sins of another that are remitted.”
This is the way in which the “Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs” defines the result of the fall into sin: “Fallen through the transgression, man became like the irrational creatures. That is, he became darkened and was deprived of perfection and dispassion. But he was not deprived of the nature and power which he had received from the All-Good God. For had he been so deprived, he would have become irrational, and thus not a man. But he preserved that nature with which he had been created, and the free, living and active natural power, so that, according to nature, he might choose and do the good, and flee and turn away from evil” (“Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs,” par. 14).
In the history of the ancient Christian Church, Pelagius and his followers denied the inheritance of sin (the heresy of Pelagianism). Pelagius affirmed that every man only repeats the sin of Adam, performing anew his own personal fall into sin, and following the example of Adam because of his own weak will. However, his nature remains the same as when it was created, innocent and pure, the same as that of the first-created Adam. Moreover, disease and death are characteristic of this nature from the creation, and are not the consequences of original sin.
Blessed Augustine stepped out against Pelagius with great power and proof. He cited (a) testimonies from Divine Revelation concerning original sin, (b) the teaching of the ancient shepherds of the Church, (c) the ancient custom of baptizing infants, and (d) the sufferings and misfortunes of men, including infants, which are a consequence of the universal and inherited sinfulness of men. However, Augustine did not escape the opposite extreme, setting forth the idea that in fallen man any independent freedom to do good has been completely annihilated, unless Grace comes to his aid.
Out of this dispute in the West there subsequently were formed two tendencies, one of which was followed by Roman Catholicism, and the other by Protestantism. Roman Catholic theologians consider that the consequence of the fall was the removal from men of a supernatural gift of God’s grace, after which man remained in his “natural” condition, his nature not harmed but only brought into disorder because the flesh, the bodily side, has come to dominate over the spiritual side; original sin in this view consists in the fact that the guilt before God of Adam and Eve has passed to all men.
The other tendency in the West sees in original sin the complete perversion of human nature and its corruption to its very depths, to its very foundations (the view accepted by Luther and Calvin). As for the newer sects of Protestantism, reacting in their turn against the extremes of Luther, they have gone as far as the complete denial of original, inherited sin.
Among the shepherds of the Eastern Church there have been no doubts concerning either the teaching of the inherited ancestral sin in general, or the consequences of this sin for fallen human nature in particular.
Orthodox theology does not accept the extreme points of Blessed Augustine’s teaching; but equally foreign to it is the (later) Roman Catholic point of view, which has a very legalistic, formal character. The foundation of the Roman Catholic teaching lies in (a) an understanding of the sin of Adam as an infinitely great offense against God; (b) after this offense there followed the wrath of God; (c) the wrath of God was expressed in the removal of the supernatural gifts of God’s grace; and (d) the removal of grace drew after itself the submission of the spiritual principle to the fleshly principle, and a falling deeper into sin and death. From this comes a particular view of the redemption performed by the Son of God. In order to restore the order which had been violated, it was necessary first of all to give satisfaction for the offense given to God, and by this means to remove the guilt of mankind and the punishment that weighs upon him.
The consequences of ancestral sin are accepted by Orthodox theology differently.
After his first fall, man himself departed in soul from God and became unreceptive to the Grace of God which was opened to him; he ceased to listen to the Divine voice addressed to him, and this led to the further deepening of sin in him.
However, God has never deprived mankind of His mercy, help, Grace, and especially His chosen people; and from this people there came forth great righteous men such as Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and the later prophets. The Apostle Paul, in the eleventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews, lists a whole choir of Old Testament righteous ones, saying that they are those of whom the world was not worthy (Heb. 11:38). All of them were perfected not without a gift from above, not without the Grace of God. The book of Acts cites the words of the first martyr, Stephen, where he says of David that he found favor (Grace) before God, and desired to find a tabernacle of the God of Jacob (Acts 7:46) — that is, to build a Temple for Him. The greatest of the prophets, St. John the Forerunner, was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15). But the Old Testament righteous ones could not escape the general lot of fallen mankind after death, remaining in the darkness of hell, until the founding of the Heavenly Church — that is, until the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ destroyed the gates of hell and opened the way into the Kingdom of Heaven.
One must not see the essence of sin — including original sin — only in the dominance of the fleshly over the spiritual, as Roman Catholic theology teaches. Many sinful inclinations, even very serious ones, have to do with qualities of a spiritual order: such, for example, is pride, which, according to the words of the Apostle, is the source, together with lust, of the general sinfulness of the world (I John 2:15-16). Sin is also present in evil spirits who have no flesh at all. In Sacred Scripture the word “flesh” signifies a condition of not being reborn, a condition opposed to being reborn in Christ: That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6). Of course, this is not to deny that a whole series of passions and sinful inclinations originate in bodily nature, which Sacred Scripture also shows (Romans, chap. 7). Thus, original sin is understood by Orthodox theology as a sinful inclination which has entered into mankind and become its spiritual disease.
[Footnote 10: The Eastern Orthodox Holy Fathers often affirm that all of Adam’s descendants inherit his sin, in accordance with the words of St. Paul: By one man’s disobedience, many were made sinners (Rom. 5:19). However, in saying this they do not mean that the guilt of Adam’s sin was imputed to his descendants; rather, it was the consequences of that sin that were transmitted. These consequences, as we have seen, include suffering, death, and physical corruption; a corruption of human nature; and a consequent loss of the indwelling Grace of God. … the corruption of human nature entails an inclination or tendency toward sin.]

I highly recommend Pomazanky’s Orthodox Dogmatic Theology for all Christians interested in having an accurate understanding of the details of Orthodox theology. I took a quick look at The Confession of Patriarch Dositheos (1672) and The Longer Catechism of the Orthodox Church of St. Philaret of Moscow (19th c.), and neither was particularly helpful on this point, with no where near the level of detail or specificity and clarity that Pomazansky provides.
 
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Perhaps we got off on the wrong foot. I'm not attacking Orthodoxy, nor are my questions born out of ill will. I see my Orthodox brothers as brothers in Christ, whom I deeply respect and admire. I think we have much more in common than we have differences. I simply do not understand the Orthodox position. Outside of the internet world, there's not much knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox position in the Western, Catholic world. When my wife was going through her catechism with a Catholic priest, I attended and would ask him questions about Eastern Orthodox, and he wouldn't know the answers. I believe the reason is two fold. First, Catholicism is mostly concerned with Protestants as the vast majority of criticism of Catholics come from Protestants. Second, most philosophical and theological texts for Eastern Orthodox are not translated to English and are hard to find.

The reason I'm interested in the Orthodox position on Original Sin in this thread is because, at least from the Catholic perspective, one cannot talk about hell without talking about God's will, and one cannot talk about God's will without talking about grace, and one cannot talk about grace without talking about original sin. As such, I'm trying to understand (and I mean that genuinely), how the Orthodox position addresses the issue of hell when it does not accept the doctrine of original sin. And the thing is the entire Western church, including the vast amount of Protestants, accept the doctrine of original sin, so I'm trying to ground myself in a completely different position on the topic. As I'm searching to understand, I'm trying to draw in doctrines I do understand, like Pelagianism, to ground myself. The reason I chose Pelagianism is because the Orthodox position has been described, at least to my knowledge, as a form of semi-Pelagianism.

As for my comments above, perhaps I didn't express it properly. If we claim that God is the perfect good, then any deviance from the will of God must be bad, both in cause (i.e the action) and in effect (i,e. the result). As such, the disobedience of Adam (i.e. the action) must have only produced bad outcomes (i.e the effects of death and the pain of childbirth). Additionally, we also claim that God is perfectly just. As such, His punishment (or the effect of His prefect Will and Intellect) must be equal to the cause. Therefore, if we all suffer from the effect of original sin, we must also be the cause of it. Otherwise, we are saying that God is punishing us (effect) for no cause. That's why I brought up the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin (i.e. the cause), and so she did not have the effect (i.e. pain of childbirth and death).

Again, I don't mean any meanness here, so forgive me if it comes across that way 🙏
"As such, I'm trying to understand (and I mean that genuinely), how the Orthodox position addresses the issue of hell when it does not accept the doctrine of original sin."

Fair and good question. For one thing, I would say that Orthodoxy in general is comfortable with a greater degree of mystery, "seeing through the glass darkly" and less comprehensive and logical answers to all questions than Catholicism. So, this may be one area where the answer is simply in God's hands, not ours, and that includes even a definitive doctrinal statement.

Also, as the sacrament of baptism does confer grace, infants are receiving more "ammunition" to resist sin etc. regardless of whether or not they are themselves guilty of any sin.

That said, there are various statements ranging from pretty hardcore ("they go to hell") to a more moderate position ("they are not glorified but neither are they punished").

The following two links are informative in fleshing out the implications of how original sin works in the case of the death of unbaptized infants.


 
That's a precarious position because it's ultimately says that Adam's transgression of God was good because it eventually leads to our salvation. That's the issue that Pelagianism falls into. We cannot say that the disobedience of God can be a good thing because then it would encourage us to be consequentialists in sense. It relates to the argument that aborting children is "good" because it allows the children a "free" ticket to heaven, rather than risking eternal perdition by sinning on earth. Yes, we are disobeying God by aborting the children, but the ultimately effect is a net benefit for the child, so it's good. That's why the Catholic position is logically consistent. Children who are not baptized suffer from the stain of original sin and cannot be pleasing to God, so they cannot enter the beatific vision.
I see this consequentialism you describe as inevitable in the Christian faith. The only question is how you parse out what is good and what is bad and why they are so.

For example, the Crucifixion of the Lord is the most heinous, evil act ever committed in all of human history, and yet, it was God's plan to bring it about in order to save His Church. In the words of Genesis, "what you meant for evil, God meant for good."

Likewise, the Fall of Adam, while inexcusable on the part of Man, was also part of God's plan. The Crucifixion of Jesus was preordained from before the foundation of the world. It was not as if God did not foresee and was "caught off guard" by the Fall.

Edit: I know you're not ruling these things out, but I give these examples to showcase a type of consequentialism that does appear in Divine Revelation.

To apply this to the topic at hand: when a baby is murdered in the womb, he is suffering the consequence of the Fall, because He is guilty of the Fall. However, God can still use that murder to save the baby. But the parents who murdered their child are guilty of murder and will be judged for their evil.
 
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I see this consequentialism you describe as inevitable in the Christian faith. The only question is how you parse out what is good and what is bad and why they are so.

For example, the Crucifixion of the Lord is the most heinous, evil act ever committed in all of human history, and yet, it was God's plan to bring it about in order to save His Church. In the words of Genesis, "what you meant for evil, God meant for good."

Likewise, the Fall of Adam, while inexcusable on the part of Man, was also part of God's plan. The Crucifixion of Jesus was preordained from before the foundation of the world. It was not as if God did not foresee and was "caught off guard" by the Fall.
Yes, these are great mysteries that we cannot really comprehend due to our status as created beings and seeing things as "time" or along "timelines."
 
At least in the West, we already are with one foot in Hell which is good, Im so stubborn that God needed to show me the opposit of heaven to believe in him.

Also, Ithink not that many people deserve eternal hell anyway but some kind of harsh punishment until you truly repent in purgatory makes sense to me. But for example, people that with a passion kill children (looking at you Israel) need to be locked away for ever.
 
Here is an explanation of the Orthodox Christian understanding of original/ancestral sin from Fr. Michael Pomazansky’s Orthodox Dogmatic Theology. This is the subsection titled “Original Sin” from chapter 5 “Concerning Evil and Sin”. Pomazansky was a hieromonk (monk priest) professor at Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville, where this book continues to be used in the seminary training there. Fr. Michael was an old school Russian priest, very connected to the authentic Russian tradition, and this book has some authority. The translation is by Fr. Seraphim Rose. There are several extensive footnotes, but I have only included a portion of one of the various footnotes that accompanied this quote, as it would have increased the already considerable length of this quote.

In brief, the Orthodox position is that, from Adam’s sin, we inherited (1) death, disease and decline and (2) a propensity to sin, but we did not inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin.

By original sin is meant the sin of Adam, which was transmitted to his descendants and weighs upon them. The doctrine of original sin has great significance in the Christian worldview, because upon it rests a whole series of other dogmas.
The word of God teaches us that through Adam “all have sinned”: By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Rom. 5:12). For who will be clean of defilement? No one, if he have lived even a single day upon earth (Job 14:4-5, Septuagint). For behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother bear me (Ps. 50:5); “the seed of corruption is in me” (Evening Prayers).
The common faith of the ancient Christian Church in the existence of original sin may be seen in the Church’s ancient custom of baptizing infants. The Local Council of Carthage in 252, composed of 66 bishops under the presidency of St. Cyprian, decreed the following against heretics: “Not to forbid (the Baptism) of an infant who, scarcely born, has sinned in nothing apart from that which proceeds from the flesh of Adam. He has received the contagion of the ancient death through his very birth [See footnote 10], and he comes, therefore, the more easily to the reception of the remission of sins in that it is not his own but the sins of another that are remitted.”
This is the way in which the “Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs” defines the result of the fall into sin: “Fallen through the transgression, man became like the irrational creatures. That is, he became darkened and was deprived of perfection and dispassion. But he was not deprived of the nature and power which he had received from the All-Good God. For had he been so deprived, he would have become irrational, and thus not a man. But he preserved that nature with which he had been created, and the free, living and active natural power, so that, according to nature, he might choose and do the good, and flee and turn away from evil” (“Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs,” par. 14).
In the history of the ancient Christian Church, Pelagius and his followers denied the inheritance of sin (the heresy of Pelagianism). Pelagius affirmed that every man only repeats the sin of Adam, performing anew his own personal fall into sin, and following the example of Adam because of his own weak will. However, his nature remains the same as when it was created, innocent and pure, the same as that of the first-created Adam. Moreover, disease and death are characteristic of this nature from the creation, and are not the consequences of original sin.
Blessed Augustine stepped out against Pelagius with great power and proof. He cited (a) testimonies from Divine Revelation concerning original sin, (b) the teaching of the ancient shepherds of the Church, (c) the ancient custom of baptizing infants, and (d) the sufferings and misfortunes of men, including infants, which are a consequence of the universal and inherited sinfulness of men. However, Augustine did not escape the opposite extreme, setting forth the idea that in fallen man any independent freedom to do good has been completely annihilated, unless Grace comes to his aid.
Out of this dispute in the West there subsequently were formed two tendencies, one of which was followed by Roman Catholicism, and the other by Protestantism. Roman Catholic theologians consider that the consequence of the fall was the removal from men of a supernatural gift of God’s grace, after which man remained in his “natural” condition, his nature not harmed but only brought into disorder because the flesh, the bodily side, has come to dominate over the spiritual side; original sin in this view consists in the fact that the guilt before God of Adam and Eve has passed to all men.
The other tendency in the West sees in original sin the complete perversion of human nature and its corruption to its very depths, to its very foundations (the view accepted by Luther and Calvin). As for the newer sects of Protestantism, reacting in their turn against the extremes of Luther, they have gone as far as the complete denial of original, inherited sin.
Among the shepherds of the Eastern Church there have been no doubts concerning either the teaching of the inherited ancestral sin in general, or the consequences of this sin for fallen human nature in particular.
Orthodox theology does not accept the extreme points of Blessed Augustine’s teaching; but equally foreign to it is the (later) Roman Catholic point of view, which has a very legalistic, formal character. The foundation of the Roman Catholic teaching lies in (a) an understanding of the sin of Adam as an infinitely great offense against God; (b) after this offense there followed the wrath of God; (c) the wrath of God was expressed in the removal of the supernatural gifts of God’s grace; and (d) the removal of grace drew after itself the submission of the spiritual principle to the fleshly principle, and a falling deeper into sin and death. From this comes a particular view of the redemption performed by the Son of God. In order to restore the order which had been violated, it was necessary first of all to give satisfaction for the offense given to God, and by this means to remove the guilt of mankind and the punishment that weighs upon him.
The consequences of ancestral sin are accepted by Orthodox theology differently.
After his first fall, man himself departed in soul from God and became unreceptive to the Grace of God which was opened to him; he ceased to listen to the Divine voice addressed to him, and this led to the further deepening of sin in him.
However, God has never deprived mankind of His mercy, help, Grace, and especially His chosen people; and from this people there came forth great righteous men such as Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and the later prophets. The Apostle Paul, in the eleventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews, lists a whole choir of Old Testament righteous ones, saying that they are those of whom the world was not worthy (Heb. 11:38). All of them were perfected not without a gift from above, not without the Grace of God. The book of Acts cites the words of the first martyr, Stephen, where he says of David that he found favor (Grace) before God, and desired to find a tabernacle of the God of Jacob (Acts 7:46) — that is, to build a Temple for Him. The greatest of the prophets, St. John the Forerunner, was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15). But the Old Testament righteous ones could not escape the general lot of fallen mankind after death, remaining in the darkness of hell, until the founding of the Heavenly Church — that is, until the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ destroyed the gates of hell and opened the way into the Kingdom of Heaven.
One must not see the essence of sin — including original sin — only in the dominance of the fleshly over the spiritual, as Roman Catholic theology teaches. Many sinful inclinations, even very serious ones, have to do with qualities of a spiritual order: such, for example, is pride, which, according to the words of the Apostle, is the source, together with lust, of the general sinfulness of the world (I John 2:15-16). Sin is also present in evil spirits who have no flesh at all. In Sacred Scripture the word “flesh” signifies a condition of not being reborn, a condition opposed to being reborn in Christ: That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6). Of course, this is not to deny that a whole series of passions and sinful inclinations originate in bodily nature, which Sacred Scripture also shows (Romans, chap. 7). Thus, original sin is understood by Orthodox theology as a sinful inclination which has entered into mankind and become its spiritual disease.
[Footnote 10: The Eastern Orthodox Holy Fathers often affirm that all of Adam’s descendants inherit his sin, in accordance with the words of St. Paul: By one man’s disobedience, many were made sinners (Rom. 5:19). However, in saying this they do not mean that the guilt of Adam’s sin was imputed to his descendants; rather, it was the consequences of that sin that were transmitted. These consequences, as we have seen, include suffering, death, and physical corruption; a corruption of human nature; and a consequent loss of the indwelling Grace of God. … the corruption of human nature entails an inclination or tendency toward sin.]

I highly recommend Pomazanky’s Orthodox Dogmatic Theology for all Christians interested in having an accurate understanding of the details of Orthodox theology. I took a quick look at The Confession of Patriarch Dositheos (1672) and The Longer Catechism of the Orthodox Church of St. Philaret of Moscow (19th c.), and neither was particularly helpful on this point, with no where near the level of detail or specificity and clarity that Pomazansky provides.
Thank you, Jeremiah for your response! What an enlightening quote, and I will certainly look into Orthodox Dogmatic Theology. Since making these posts and being unsatisfied with my answers, I did some additional research and reading on this topic, and I realized that I was flat out wrong about multiple claims I made in this thread. This is the reason why I try and come to any theological debate with an air of humility, and also, why open debate is so important.

Anyway, here are claims I made that were wrong and my correction. After reading and reflecting on them, I realize that the Orthodox and Catholic position are virtually identical, confirming that my Orthodox brothers are truly my brothers in Christ.

1. Catholics do not state that each person is personally guilty for Adam's sin. The Catholic Church teaches that the human race inherits a type of particular condition from Adam, but not personal culpability for his sin. Original sin is a deprivation of something, not personal guilt for someone else's sin. In fact, Orthodox author Fr. Andrew Damick says:

A true inherited guilt is more characteristic of certain streams of Protestantism than it is of Rome. Yet the identification of original sin as inherited guilt in Catholic theology nevertheless persists in Orthodox polemics

Additionally, the Confession of Dositheus, which was accepted at the Eastern Orthodox 1672 synod in Jerusalem, teaches that the descendants of Adam are subject to eternal punishment through the inheritance of original sin. Decree 16 states:
And since infants are men, and as such need salvation, needing salvation they need also baptism. And those that are not regenerated, since they have no received the remission of hereditary sin, are, of necessity, subject to eternal punishment, and consequently cannot without baptism be saved.
Also, Orthodox canonical tradition has accepted a canon from the Council of Carthage, held between 418 and 319, which explicitly teaches the Catholic doctrine of original sin. The canon states
It has pleased the council to dress that whosoever denies that the little ones newly born from the wombs of their mothers when they are being baptized, or asserts that they are baptized for the remission of sins, but that they have inherited no original sin from Adam obliging them to be purified in the bath of renaissance (whence it follows that in these persons the form of baptism for the remission of sin is not true, but is to be regarded as factitious), let him be anathema; for no other meaning ought to be attached to what the apostle has said, viz., "Sin entered the world through one human being" (Rom. 5:12), and thus it passed over into all human beings; wherefore all of them have sinned, than that which the Catholic Church diffused and spread aboard everywhere has ever understood those words to mean. For it is on account of this fanon of the Faith even the little ones too, who are as yet incapable of committing any sin of their own to render them guilty of any offense, are truly baptized for the remission of sin, in order than what sin they inherited from the primordial birth may be purified in them through the process of renaissance.
The canon admits sin is inherited through birth and is remitted by baptism, which is why both Catholic and Orthodox baptize infants for the remission of sins.

Additionally, as was discussed, the Council of Ephesus, which the Eastern Orthodox accept as the third ecumenical council, condemned the position of Caelestius, a disciple of Pelagius. The condemnation is as follows:
If the metropolitan of a province, having distanced himself from this hold and ecumenical council . . has embraced the doctrines of Caelestius or does so in the future, he can no longer act in any manner against the bishops of the provinces, since he is henceforce barred by the council from all ecclesiastical communion and is rendered completely ineffective.

2. Catholics do not believe that even though Mary did not have original sin, she was free from the consequences of sin. I completely misunderstood this argument as well. The Catholic Church does not believe that the Virgin Mary was exempt from some effects of the fall-such as human death. The Immaculate Conception means that that the Virgin Mary did not contract the internal defects that results from the fall, such as disordered desires, but she was subject to some of the Fall's external effects. Catholic theology teaches that Mary did die, and in Pope Pius XII's MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS, he clearly states
[. . .] They offered more profound explanations of its meaning and nature, brining out into sharper light the fact that this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt [. . .]

The Virgin Mary died, but her body remained incorrupt.

Now, let's address the objection of why is it just for someone to suffer the effects of original sin if they do not have its stain. First, the Virgin Mary death closely united with her with divine Son’s mission, who also experienced death. Second, as a creature, she needed to experience death in order to receive the same redemptive grace of Jesus's sacrifice that we all receive.

Orthodox also see the Immaculate Conception as compatible with their tradition. Fr. John Panteleimon Manoussakis says
The doctrine that proclaims that the Mother of God was sanctified at her conception comes to declare simply what every Christian, Orthodox, Catholic, has always believed about the person of the Theotokos, namely, that in her we find the most perfect human being--better yet, in her we see the true nature of a human person, a nature unafflicted by any sin, including the original sin.

Edit: one final point is I'm not sure if the Catholic position only sees original sin in the physical. Concupiscence is any yearning of the soul for good, but in its strict and specific acceptation, a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason. However, pride clearly comes from original sin, so original sin cannot be understood strictly as physically. Additionally, unlike the Gnostics, we Catholics clearly see the physical as having good in it as well because Jesus had a bodily resurrection, and we all have a bodily resurrection on Judgment Day.
 
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I see this consequentialism you describe as inevitable in the Christian faith. The only question is how you parse out what is good and what is bad and why they are so.

For example, the Crucifixion of the Lord is the most heinous, evil act ever committed in all of human history, and yet, it was God's plan to bring it about in order to save His Church. In the words of Genesis, "what you meant for evil, God meant for good."

Likewise, the Fall of Adam, while inexcusable on the part of Man, was also part of God's plan. The Crucifixion of Jesus was preordained from before the foundation of the world. It was not as if God did not foresee and was "caught off guard" by the Fall.

Edit: I know you're not ruling these things out, but I give these examples to showcase a type of consequentialism that does appear in Divine Revelation.

To apply this to the topic at hand: when a baby is murdered in the womb, he is suffering the consequence of the Fall, because He is guilty of the Fall. However, God can still use that murder to save the baby. But the parents who murdered their child are guilty of murder and will be judged for their evil.
Yes, God the Father knows that Jesus (who is the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity) will be crucified but that does not mean that Judas who delivered up Jesus to be crucified was morally praiseworthy because the consequence of his act was all of humanity was saved. Disobeying God's authority cannot ever produce a good outcome because His Will is perfectly directed to the good, and any disobedience of His will must necessarily be oriented away from the good. Therefore, Judas's act was wrong no matter the outcome. Now, Judas could have repented of his sin and have been saved, but his decision (born out of his free will) to commit suicide prevented him from every being redeemed.
 
"As such, I'm trying to understand (and I mean that genuinely), how the Orthodox position addresses the issue of hell when it does not accept the doctrine of original sin."

Fair and good question. For one thing, I would say that Orthodoxy in general is comfortable with a greater degree of mystery, "seeing through the glass darkly" and less comprehensive and logical answers to all questions than Catholicism. So, this may be one area where the answer is simply in God's hands, not ours, and that includes even a definitive doctrinal statement.

Also, as the sacrament of baptism does confer grace, infants are receiving more "ammunition" to resist sin etc. regardless of whether or not they are themselves guilty of any sin.

That said, there are various statements ranging from pretty hardcore ("they go to hell") to a more moderate position ("they are not glorified but neither are they punished").

The following two links are informative in fleshing out the implications of how original sin works in the case of the death of unbaptized infants.


Very interesting, thank you. I think this is one of the difficulties I have with Eastern Orthodox (and I'm not saying this as a criticism, but solely out of love and honesty) is that there can be uncertainty on their beliefs, which often can trigger my 'tism.
 
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Thank you, Jeremiah for your response! What an enlightening quote, and I will certainly look into Orthodox Dogmatic Theology. Since making these posts and being unsatisfied with my answers, I did some additional research and reading on this topic, and I realized that I was flat out wrong about multiple claims I made in this thread. This is the reason why I try and come to any theological debate with an air of humility, and also, why open debate is so important.

Anyway, here are claims I made that were wrong and my correction. After reading and reflecting on them, I realize that the Orthodox and Catholic position are virtually identical, confirming that my Orthodox brothers are truly my brothers in Christ.

1. Catholics do not state that each person is personally guilty for Adam's sin. The Catholic Church teaches that the human race inherits a type of particular condition from Adam, but not personal culpability for his sin. Original sin is a deprivation of something, not personal guilt for someone else's sin. In fact, Orthodox author Fr. Andrew Damick says:



Additionally, the Confession of Dositheus, which was accepted at the Eastern Orthodox 1672 synod in Jerusalem, teaches that the descendants of Adam are subject to eternal punishment through the inheritance of original sin. Decree 16 states:

Also, Orthodox canonical tradition has accepted a canon from the Council of Carthage, held between 418 and 319, which explicitly teaches the Catholic doctrine of original sin. The canon states

The canon admits sin is inherited through birth and is remitted by baptism, which is why both Catholic and Orthodox baptize infants for the remission of sins.

Additionally, as was discussed, the Council of Ephesus, which the Eastern Orthodox accept as the third ecumenical council, condemned the position of Caelestius, a disciple of Pelagius. The condemnation is as follows:


2. Catholics do not believe that even though Mary did not have original sin, she was free from the consequences of sin. I completely misunderstood this argument as well. The Catholic Church does not believe that the Virgin Mary was exempt from some effects of the fall-such as human death. The Immaculate Conception means that that the Virgin Mary did not contract the internal defects that results from the fall, such as disordered desires, but she was subject to some of the Fall's external effects. Catholic theology teaches that Mary did die, and in Pope Pius XII's MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS, he clearly states


The Virgin Mary died, but her body remained incorrupt.

Now, let's address the objection of why is it just for someone to suffer the effects of original sin if they do not have its stain. First, the Virgin Mary death closely united with her with divine Son’s mission, who also experienced death. Second, as a creature, she needed to experience death in order to receive the same redemptive grace of Jesus's sacrifice that we all receive.

Orthodox also see the Immaculate Conception as compatible with their tradition. Fr. John Panteleimon Manoussakis says


Edit: one final point is I'm not sure if the Catholic position only sees original sin in the physical. Concupiscence is any yearning of the soul for good, but in its strict and specific acceptation, a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason. However, pride clearly comes from original sin, so original sin cannot be understood strictly as physically. Additionally, unlike the Gnostics, we Catholics clearly see the physical as having good in it as well because Jesus had a bodily resurrection, and we all have a bodily resurrection on Judgment Day.
Ludwig Ott, my go-to source for Catholic dogma, in Book 2, section 2, sub-section 25, titled "Fate of Children Dying in the State of Original Sin" has the following statement which is "De Fide" (a required doctrine of the faith): "Souls who depart from this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God."

Ott further cites a declaration of Pope Innocent III to distinguish between separation from God and the actual punishment of torture: "The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the vision of God (= the punishment of loss), but the punishment of actual sin is the torment of eternal hell (= the punishment of sense)." He also cites Thomas Aquinas to the effect that "a condition of natural bliss is compatible with poena damni [pain of loss / deprivation]". In other words, unbaptized dead infants can still be happy even if they aren't fully glorified or reunited with God.

Regarding Catholicism's tendency to provide clear and distinct logical answers for everything, while that is the Catholic and scholastic tendency, it is also true that Catholicism states clearly when there is more than one permissible answer, or that a dogma is less than "de fide", i.e. not a required doctrine of faith. It's important to keep this in mind as well because a lot of the debates end up ignoring the fact that Catholicism is oftentimes less dogmatic and more open to different answers in some cases.

Ott is an excellent resource, and really every Christian should have it as a reference. He is great in setting forth what I have described above: i.e. when there is only one permissible answer, he states it. When there are more than one permissible answer, he sets them all forth. Moreover, he also provides the statements of the heretics and how the Catholic church refuted them. And perhaps most importantly, when he sets forth the case of the heretics, so far as I can tell, he does his best to "steel man" their case (i.e. he provides the strongest case he can make for them). (Debates and discussions among Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants would be better if we all tried to learn from the sources themselves to ensure we understand the other side from their own perspective.)

So in addition to being a sort of systematic theology of Catholic dogma, it is also a good source of the historical debates and resolutions.

A downloadable version is available here: https://archive.org/details/fundamentals-of-catholic-dogma-pdfdrive

That's not the most up-to-date version, but given V2, that isn't a bad thing.... I've actually compared that version to the latest version and there really aren't too many differences in any case.
 
I refuse to believe that a loving God would send any of his children to eternal damnation in some made up fire pit.

Where is hell mentioned in the Bible? Before we get into the translation issue. Yes there are some Hebrew words that people translate to hell. The Hebrew word Sheol was sometimes translated to ‘hell’ but it sure doesn’t seem to have the connotation of a fiery pit of eternal damnation. Also in the early 1600s the King James Version translated a bunch of words to ‘hell’ where the Bible verses containing the word come from.

But let’s forget all that. We know God is eternally loving and merciful, would it make ANY sense for him to damn his creation? Or is it more likely that perhaps a purgatory type purification exists instead where our souls are purified through suffering depending on the severity of our sins?

Would any of you who have children damn them to eternal suffering? You wouldn’t, and God wouldn’t either.

There is no ‘hell’
This means you have no fear of God and His righteous judgment.
 
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