Discussing Hell and Eternal Damnation

I am also no theologian but my understanding is that the consequence of the sin of Adam is the destruction & degradation of man's original nature (an icon of divinity destined for theosis) into a fallen state, disposed to sin, corrupt in spirit and body, darkened in the nous. And Christ's assumption of human nature and conquering of death healed mankind's fallen state from sin and death and provided the healing path toward reunification with God and restoration to our intended state, to all who accept Christ. But the Orthodox perspective as far as I have learned is that we are not to judge Adam as any of us in our fallen state as sinners would surely have fallen too. So in that sense we are not 'innocent' of Adam's guilt of sin, but nor is God judging you or me for eating the fruit... we have our own sins to answer for.

(If any Orthodox find error in my explanation please do correct)
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
God is not imputing guilt to Christ because He is not under Adam's broken covenant, He is the head of the New Covenant, you and I are not.

You've asked me a question. But you still haven't answered my question of why God punishes mankind with banishment from Eden and death if they are not born guilty in Adam.
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We are guilty for our own sins not Adam's, but the entirety of mankind fell due to Adam's disobedience, and as such we have inherited a disposition and propensity towards sin.

I don't think it renders God unjust or unkind for banishing all of mankind from Eden even though they are not all guilty Adam's of sin. To use an analogy, us Christians in the West live in societies that are permissive towards abortion. We ourselves do not support or endorse this, and we do not have blood on our hands from the murder of these babies, but because live in this society, we will have to face any punishment that God inflicts upon said society as a result.

Another example would be the simple factors our our birth. Do kids born into impoverished families deserve it? Or kids born with birth defects? As progenitor of mankind Adam held the entire future of us all in his hand, and he chose to be disobedient. We all have to live with the results of that, but that doesn't mean we are guilty on a personal level for what he did.
 
Lawrence87 said:
As progenitor of mankind Adam held the entire future of us all in his hand, and he chose to be disobedient. We all have to live with the results of that, but that doesn't mean we are guilty on a personal level for what he did.
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So why does mankind suffer on a personal level for what he did?
 
Lawrence87 said:
Same reason everyone suffers because of the choices of other people that we don't control. It doesn't mean we are guilty for their decisions, but we suffer because of them.
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So Adam is cursing mankind with death, not God?

You are right that God is not unjust or unkind to curse us. We all deserve hell because we are guilty. Thank God for His Grace in sending His Son to save us.

But to deny and downplay man's guilt undercuts the need for God to save us in the first place. It also denies the reality that mankind is suffering under the curse of the Fall, as a direct result of transgressing His Law.
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
God is not imputing guilt to Christ because He is not under Adam's broken covenant, He is the head of the New Covenant, you and I are not.

You've asked me a question. But you still haven't answered my question of why God punishes mankind with banishment from Eden and death if they are not born guilty in Adam.
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We did answer. He didn't ban us, he banned Adam, and thus (as a result, and later) we inherited that state of being. That being, if we aren't restored, is to be die and reside in Hades/the realm of the dead. Unless we are renewed and restored, which can be granted to us through Jesus Christ, and that was his purpose of living - healing us to create a path of resurrection from the dead.
 
Elipe said:
It's not that they want to boil, it's that they don't want to end up in heaven.
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Exactly. Great post. They don't want to be with Christ. They don't understand that "heaven" is where Jesus Christ is, and only people who treasure and love Jesus Christ will be there with Him.
Lawrence87 said:
As progenitor of mankind Adam held the entire future of us all in his hand, and he chose to be disobedient. We all have to live with the results of that, but that doesn't mean we are guilty on a personal level for what he did.
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Yes, because Adam is a type. You see that with his name, it is in plain view. It is an explanation of the process of man and his redemption, this entire story, with the focus on the fact that we are inheritors of eternal life if we unite ourselves to Christ, but if we deny him or choose disobedience, we have no part in Him.
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
But to deny and downplay man's guilt undercuts the need for God to save us in the first place. It also denies the reality that mankind is suffering under the curse of the Fall, as a direct result of transgressing His Law.
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You're obsessed with this word guilt. You can save someone who isn't "guilty" in life. It happens all the time.

Christ himself was cursed (cursed are those who hang on the tree), yet never transgressed the Law. He took that curse on to abolish it and restore humanity.
 
Blade Runner said:
Christ himself was cursed (cursed are those who hang on the tree), yet never transgressed the Law. He took that curse on to abolish it and restore humanity.
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He never transgressed the Law, but took our sins onto Himself, and endured the curse in our place. Thereby fulfilling, not abolishing, the Law.

Blade Runner said:
You can save someone who isn't "guilty" in life. It happens all the time.
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There is no one who isn't guilty of sinning. Not sure what you're talking about here.
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
He never transgressed the Law, but took our sins onto Himself, and endured the curse in our place. Thereby fulfilling, not abolishing, the Law.


There is no one who isn't guilty of sinning. Not sure what you're talking about here.
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This doctrine of Original sin and inherited guilt is an Augustine doctrine.

Here's 10 mins of the history and why we believe what we believe.





Christ conquered death. We might be forgiven of our sins through the sacraments of the Church, word, deeds, and faith.

We will all sin, due to our fallen nature and our choice to do so. But I am not guilty for the sins of someone else. Only my own sins. Are you supposed to bear the guilt for a sodomite because you're a human? How about a baby? Does that baby, whose never chosen to do anything other than suck on mother's tit bear guilt for me as a father?

Alas...I think we are sort of going around in circles here...the Orthodox position has been enumerated. Ultimately, what you accept as an acceptable "why" is for you to decide. I suppose I'd you want to bear the responsibility for others sins on your conscious... Go ahead. But I've not got the bandwidth nor capability to do so... Have a hard enough time with my own wretched self.
 
Lawrence87 said:
We are guilty for our own sins not Adam's, but the entirety of mankind fell due to Adam's disobedience, and as such we have inherited a disposition and propensity towards sin.

I don't think it renders God unjust or unkind for banishing all of mankind from Eden even though they are not all guilty Adam's of sin. To use an analogy, us Christians in the West live in societies that are permissive towards abortion. We ourselves do not support or endorse this, and we do not have blood on our hands from the murder of these babies, but because live in this society, we will have to face any punishment that God inflicts upon said society as a result.

Another example would be the simple factors our our birth. Do kids born into impoverished families deserve it? Or kids born with birth defects? As progenitor of mankind Adam held the entire future of us all in his hand, and he chose to be disobedient. We all have to live with the results of that, but that doesn't mean we are guilty on a personal level for what he did.
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Do Eastern Orthodox subscribe to Pelagianism? This isn't a rhetorical question btw. I honestly don't know. I'm only familiar with the traditional Catholic position (which is Augustinian-Thomism) and the position of the modern Catholic Church which seems to be implicitly endorsing a Pelagianism theology (via heretics like James Martin).
 
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staddlelateen said:
Do Eastern Orthodox subscribe to Pelagianism? This isn't a rhetorical question btw. I honestly don't know. I'm only familiar with the traditional Catholic position (which is Augustinian-Thomism) and the position of the modern Catholic Church which seems to be implicitly endorsing a Pelagianism theology (via heretics like James Martin).
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No and it was condemned in as heretical in 418...

 
staddlelateen said:
I've been reading about the issue further, and it seems to be originally called "ancestral sin" which has been classified as both Synergism and semi-Pelagianism. Is there any dogmatic teachings on this by the Orthodox churches? Can any of you Orthodox point me to any good resources on this topic?
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Given that Orthodox and Catholics shared this council as it was 600 years pre-schism... What is it that you're expecting would be different?
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
So Adam is cursing mankind with death, not God?

You are right that God is not unjust or unkind to curse us. We all deserve hell because we are guilty. Thank God for His Grace in sending His Son to save us.

But to deny and downplay man's guilt undercuts the need for God to save us in the first place. It also denies the reality that mankind is suffering under the curse of the Fall, as a direct result of transgressing His Law.
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Another important factor is death is not necessarily a curse in the Orthodox viewpoint. Through Adam's transgression we encounter many negative effects as outlined in Genesis. If death did not result from this we would all be condemned to eternity in a fallen world. Yes death is also a negative in some ways, it is a source of fear which leads us to sin, but it was also given so that ultimately Christ could redeem us from the results of Adam's transgression. So it could be said that God gave us death for our redemption not for our punishment.

It is not just to suggest that someone deserves hell because they were born. We deserve hell because we all sin and none of us take full responsibility for it. It is also the case that whilst we don't inherit the guilt for Adam's transgression, it is on us that we do not entreat God nearly as much as we could to save the world from it's faults. If we devoted ourselves to this and weren't so inclined towards choosing sin instead maybe we could undo some of the evils caused by others, but again it doesn't mean we inherit their guilt, just that we never choose righteousness, and when we do it is usually tainted by unrighteous intent.

We still die and we are still inclined towards sin, so we still need God to save us whether we are guilty for Adam's sin or just for our own so your contention is false. It also does not deny that mankind is suffering as a result of Adam's transgression, it is jusy saying that an aborted baby does not go to hell for being guilty of it.
 
Lawrence87 said:
We still die and we are still inclined towards sin, so we still need God to save us whether we are guilty for Adam's sin or just for our own so your contention is false.
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Never denied any of those things. My ultimate contention is that if we are not guilty of Adam's sin then God is punishing us despite us being innocent. I do not see this in the Bible anywhere. But as you say, physical death takes on a different role for the Christian.

Lawrence87 said:
It also does not deny that mankind is suffering as a result of Adam's transgression, it is jusy saying that an aborted baby does not go to hell for being guilty of it.
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I don't think our answer differs too much on aborted babies. It is up to God whether they are saved or not. I don't affirm that anyone is born innocent, they would not die if they were, but that doesn't mean God can't save them if He so chooses.
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
Never denied any of those things. My ultimate contention is that if we are not guilty of Adam's sin then God is punishing us despite us being innocent. I do not see this in the Bible anywhere. But as you say, physical death takes on a different role for the Christian.
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But I am not making the contention that we are innocent. Just that we are not guilty of Adam's transgression. If I say the guilt for your sins does not lie at my feet, that is not the same as saying I am innocent of all sin.
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
Never denied any of those things. My ultimate contention is that if we are not guilty of Adam's sin then God is punishing us despite us being innocent. I do not see this in the Bible anywhere. But as you say, physical death takes on a different role for the Christian.


I don't think our answer differs too much on aborted babies. It is up to God whether they are saved or not. I don't affirm that anyone is born innocent, they would not die if they were, but that doesn't mean God can't save them if He so chooses.
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Biblically children are considered innocent until they reach an age where they can defy or go against god.

What that age is is not clear, Jews believe it to be about 12-13 I think, and Christians generally believe it is about 7-8.

An aborted baby will go to heaven and will reside there as the unrealised adult it would become, thanks to god's mercy.

As Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven".
 
Lawrence87 said:
But I am not making the contention that we are innocent.
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I recognize that. The claim you are making is that we born innocent of Adam's sin, as if we aren't in him covenantally. But since we all, even babies in the womb, suffer the curses of God for Adam's sin, it's clear we are guilty in Adam. If we aren't guilty in Adam, then God is cursing us with death, even for many who are not guilty.

Lawrence87 said:
If I say the guilt for your sins does not lie at my feet, that is not the same as saying I am innocent of all sin.
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You are not in me, but you and I both are in Adam.
 
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