So what you’re saying is hell was not in God’s mind in the Old Testament but when Christ came all of a sudden it was? Makes no sense whatsoever.
Discussing Hell and Eternal Damnation
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So what you’re saying is hell was not in God’s mind in the Old Testament but when Christ came all of a sudden it was? Makes no sense whatsoever.
How do you interpret the verse you were talking about? I have to admit I'm not the best scholar on the Old Testament, but what do you see in the verse?
On a quick glance, and seeing the verses before it, I don't see how this is even related to God sending people to Hell. The next verse talks about these burnings as just murder, not "condemning to Hell".
As for your claim of my words on Hell in the Old Testament, you're entirely twisting it. No point in explaining why if you don't explain yourself first. You have also not explained at all why you are a Catholic arguing there is no Hell on his first post.
They go to hell. They are guilty in Adam. The Gospel is not based on opportunity and chance.
We have no Scriptural doctrine that implies that hell, the lake of fire, or the outer darkness, will be temporary. In fact they are referred to as the "second death."
Nor did the Church Fathers teach this.
The Resurrection and Judgment are great mysteries and we can't pretend to know for sure what will happen or how God's final justice & mercy will play out.
But there is no call to invent theories and doctrines on the basis of "a loving and merciful God COULDN'T POSSIBLY do [xyz]." Presuming to know the meaning of mercy and justice better than God is downright prelest.
Revelation 20:
Revelation 21:
There is certainly no talk of a second resurrection after the second death.
Nor did the Church Fathers teach this.
The Resurrection and Judgment are great mysteries and we can't pretend to know for sure what will happen or how God's final justice & mercy will play out.
But there is no call to invent theories and doctrines on the basis of "a loving and merciful God COULDN'T POSSIBLY do [xyz]." Presuming to know the meaning of mercy and justice better than God is downright prelest.
Revelation 20:
Revelation 21:
There is certainly no talk of a second resurrection after the second death.
I don't make judgements about what is and is not just. That is up to God. Again, it is people who separate themselves from God in this life, and God respects our will. He doesn't need us to be in heaven, if we decide we don't want that, then he is not going to violate our choice.
Being Reformed, I am precluded from believing that Mankind is morally good or even neutral. The Scriptures are clear: all of mankind is guilty in Adam. This is the Biblical doctrine of Original Sin.
If man is in sin, he will be judged to hell. The only way to be spared the curse of Adam is to be in Jesus Christ, who took the sins of those whom He died for, onto Himself.
Those who believe are justified but whoever does not believe is condemned already.
If man is in sin, he will be judged to hell. The only way to be spared the curse of Adam is to be in Jesus Christ, who took the sins of those whom He died for, onto Himself.
Those who believe are justified but whoever does not believe is condemned already.
Including children?
Can't tell you for sure unless I'm going to invent my own categories of baptismal regeneration, infant baptism, etc.
What I do know from the Bible: we are born guilty. God can Gracefully save us at anytime, always despite ourselves. He always does what is right.
I read a book called The Fire That Consumes by Edward Fudge many years ago. The conclusion from that book, and he examined every walk of Christian faith, is that hell is a place where one's soul is consumed and not able to be resurrected instead of a place where one is tortured for eternity. I will have to reread the book because I recall in the Lord of Spirits podcast that one of the priests said the ancients had no concept of total annihilation or nonexistence, which I can't recall Fudge addressing, but I will have to reread it, like I said.
Personally, I think it would be more terrifying for someone to be annihilated with no hope of ever existing again than continue to exist in some hellish place. I guess I think, based on the way Christians are called to live, based on the many rules of the Church, based on the narrow way, the wheat separated from the chaff and the insistence on only one true way to Christ, I conclude that God doesn't want everyone for whatever purpose He has for the departed in heaven. He only wants the elite, the best of the best, the cream of the crop, those who are able to set aside all the cares of this world for God's sake because whatever will be required of people in heaven it isn't like some kind of retirement, it must be some kind of hardcore existence that is fully involved and only someone who spends an entire Earthly lifetime in full pursuit of God can even be considered. Although I don't know how that meshes with grace.
Personally, I think it would be more terrifying for someone to be annihilated with no hope of ever existing again than continue to exist in some hellish place. I guess I think, based on the way Christians are called to live, based on the many rules of the Church, based on the narrow way, the wheat separated from the chaff and the insistence on only one true way to Christ, I conclude that God doesn't want everyone for whatever purpose He has for the departed in heaven. He only wants the elite, the best of the best, the cream of the crop, those who are able to set aside all the cares of this world for God's sake because whatever will be required of people in heaven it isn't like some kind of retirement, it must be some kind of hardcore existence that is fully involved and only someone who spends an entire Earthly lifetime in full pursuit of God can even be considered. Although I don't know how that meshes with grace.
All of the speculation is irrelevant. Notice how he didn't address my question, being a person who either is a universalist, or wants to believe it. It's quite clear that we lack the ability to understand this topic and it is only out of emotional desire (of loved ones, or perceived "fairness") that the issue even comes up.
If God is truth, then there is no worry. If we must trust God, and be faithful to Him, we know what is to be done.
God's "justice" is impossible for a human to contemplate, for many reasons, because it's not rational or juridical, like we think of it. It is rather a term that is dependent on order, the proper order of things. It's like asking where did God come from? It's a silly question, since we are created, we can't discern that, since it's not part of our reality or understanding. The term "God" is what is used basically for all of these concepts that we are not able to fully understand, and it's that way for a reason.
One more thing, commonly mistaken in our foolishness, is the idea of "love." Love actually is allowing the freedom of being and choosing. People forget this, conveniently. If someone is coerced to do something, does that demonstrate love? Of course not. Similarly with God, and especially one that has gone through everything we have, including death, we are called of our own free will to be with Him or reject Him. How this works out is a bit of a mystery, but one thing is certain, by definition one cannot blame God. If one does as much, he becomes the new God. Or if there is something greater than God that apparently God must obey (such as a principle we claim, like "justice"), it suggests that that in reality is the true God, which is actually then deserving of worship instead.
If God is truth, then there is no worry. If we must trust God, and be faithful to Him, we know what is to be done.
God's "justice" is impossible for a human to contemplate, for many reasons, because it's not rational or juridical, like we think of it. It is rather a term that is dependent on order, the proper order of things. It's like asking where did God come from? It's a silly question, since we are created, we can't discern that, since it's not part of our reality or understanding. The term "God" is what is used basically for all of these concepts that we are not able to fully understand, and it's that way for a reason.
One more thing, commonly mistaken in our foolishness, is the idea of "love." Love actually is allowing the freedom of being and choosing. People forget this, conveniently. If someone is coerced to do something, does that demonstrate love? Of course not. Similarly with God, and especially one that has gone through everything we have, including death, we are called of our own free will to be with Him or reject Him. How this works out is a bit of a mystery, but one thing is certain, by definition one cannot blame God. If one does as much, he becomes the new God. Or if there is something greater than God that apparently God must obey (such as a principle we claim, like "justice"), it suggests that that in reality is the true God, which is actually then deserving of worship instead.
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Solid question. One of the first things I asked the local priest when I first started inquiring into Orthodoxy. "What about, say, uncontacted tribesmen?"
The answer is that we do not know and we leave them in God's hands. We worry about ourselves, who do know about Christ, and will be judged with that in mind.
Thinking about any of this in terms of, like, felonies and prison sentences, is a totally confused mindset. God doesn't damn people. People damn themselves. During this life, the soul is in an ever-changing state, always either improving or worsening, always either becoming closer to God or further away from Him, never in stasis. Upon death, however, the soul is basically sealed forever in whatever state death found it in. That final state becomes eternal.
I was being facetious, biblically children are considered innocent until a certain age.
Can you cite a passage of Scripture that supports this?
We have some indications of this from St. Paul in Romans 2:12-16,
The "law written in their hearts" is also known as the inner law (as opposed to the outer law which is the Gospel). So each will be judged according to his own conscience at the very least. Even uncontacted tribesman have moral notions within them and know things like murder or theft are bad. They feel a pain in their hearts when they sin.
Also, there is this from James 3:1,
He is warning people against becoming spiritual teachers or leaders because their judgement will be stricter. St. John Chrysostom even said that Hell is full of priests and bishops that have led people astray. Not just because they are responsible for so many other souls, but because they are experts and should know better. So we have this theme in Scripture and Church tradition that the more you know, the more responsible you are. The more you know, the less you can get away with.
There is no Scriptural basis for any of this. We all bear the consequences of Adam's Original Sin, but that does not mean we bear any guilt for it.
What you are suggesting is that billions of people have been created by God expressly to be condemned to eternal torture. This makes no sense knowing that God's justice is perfect and his love is unimaginably great. Remember, Jesus went down to Hades to preach the Gospel to the pagans and offer everyone a chance at salvation.
I used to think Hell was excessive punishment, but then I considered that Jesus died so that we WOULDN'T have to go to Hell. That's grace. We deserve Hell for our sins but we don't have to go because Jesus was the sacrificial lamb.
It would be like a judge saying, you are off the hook, and you insisting that you go to prison. You wouldn't call the judge unloving when he offered you mercy and you rejected it because you preferred to suffer for your crimes.
It would be like a judge saying, you are off the hook, and you insisting that you go to prison. You wouldn't call the judge unloving when he offered you mercy and you rejected it because you preferred to suffer for your crimes.
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For any of this? Not even the part where I quoted from the Gospel of John?
"Those who believe are not condemned but those who do not believe are condemned already."
The consequence of Adam's sin is the curse of death. We are covenantally guilty in Adam. That's Romans 5. Are you saying that God curses us for sin that we are not guilty of?
That is your overreactionary rationalization drawn from what I said. I never said that.
Cite the passage please.
Narekatsi
Oriental Orthodox
1 Peter 3:18-20, 1 Peter 4:6, Acts 2:27,31