Discussing Hell and Eternal Damnation

I've been reading about the issue further, and it seems to be originally called "ancestral sin" which has been classified as both Synergism and semi-Pelagianism. Is there any dogmatic teachings on this by the Orthodox churches? Can any of you Orthodox point me to any good resources on this topic?
“Ancestral vs. Original Sin” is a fake dichotomy, promoted only since 1960s Greece, based on a hatred of St. Augustine along with a very willful refusal to actually learn what he taught. We have had many Councils addressing the original sin / infant Baptism topic (these are inseparable) and every single one of them agrees with the position of St. Augustine.

I have been challenging those who disagree with me on this - for several years now - to provide one single example of a Canon, Council, Catechism or Confession that agrees with them. Thus far there have been zero takers.
 
Never denied any of those things. My ultimate contention is that if we are not guilty of Adam's sin then God is punishing us despite us being innocent. I do not see this in the Bible anywhere. But as you say, physical death takes on a different role for the Christian.


I don't think our answer differs too much on aborted babies. It is up to God whether they are saved or not. I don't affirm that anyone is born innocent, they would not die if they were, but that doesn't mean God can't save them if He so chooses.
The only issue with the “we suffer because of Adam’s guilt” position is that suffering remains after Baptism, which removes every iota of guilt and sin. The effects last even though the guilt is remitted. As to exactly why the effects remain, my own theory on this (not dogmatic by any means) is that suffering becomes salvific for us once we are part of the Body of Christ, whereas before Baptism it only causes us pain. But again that is not some kind of doctrine or theory I would impose or demand on anyone, it’s just what makes sense to me at my current level of understanding.
 
This discussion about being born without salvation and dying without baptism is a mystery that is unnecessary to fully comprehend on human terms. Here's a priest who lets scripture and The Holy Spirit's teaching in The Church speak for itself: https://russian-faith.com/can-unbaptized-people-be-saved-n7388
The short answer to whether or not unbaptized people, especially infants are saved by the mercy of God, is yes. Christ also tells those living that they must be born of water and spirit, that they must eat of His flesh, and heed the voice of His Apostles, ect. For any non-Orthodox here, this would not be because people are saved in the life of Christ without baptism, but because God also judges the heart, and God is just. We have the teaching for us on earth that we keep it, and we also have the mystery of life after death, and Christ's judgements. Orthodoxy does have a long standing tradition of God's mercy and differing judgement upon infants. Anyways I'll let Fr. Joseph Gleason have the saints speak for themselves.

Non-Orthodox have to deal with mysteries as well, so this should not dissuade someone from learning about Orthodoxy. For example: What happens to those who have never heard the gospel, especially younger children who had only what was given to them? The simple answer is that God literally judges people based upon what they've been given. For the orphan, the widow, the rich, the poor. Regardless of someone's view on sacraments, they have to deal with the fact that there are some without knowledge of the gospel and from everyone's perspective can only have done with what they were given. To my knowledge, only Calvinists would say it's impossible for such people to be saved, as God simply didn't predestine them saving faith.
 
I never knew that Pelagianism was condemned as a heresy in 418.

Anyways, the issue that Augustine faced with Pelagianism is the logical conclusion that if humans are not stained with original sin, then there is no need, theoretically, for the Church's sanctifying grace. Furthermore, if someone could be perfect without the Church, then there would be no need for Jesus's sacrifice because that person could be pleasing to God and worthy of heaven on his own. I don't see how the Orthodox position (which I still don't really understand, tbh) avoids that conclusion.

Additionally, I don't understand logically how you can still suffer the effect of original sin without being guilty of it. If you can, then it's unjust, as you are being punished for a crime that you didn't commit and bear no fault for. That's why in the Catholic dogma of Immaculate Conception, Mary (who was the only creature not born of original sin) did not suffer the pains of child birth and was assumed into heaven. Augustine and the Catholic Church realized, correctly, that it would be unjust to punish someone of original sin when she did share in its guilt.
It’s not just Carthage 418. Carthage 252, Carthage 411, Diospolis 415, Carthage 418, Ephesus 431, Orange 529, Trullo 692, Nicaea II 787, and the more recent 17th century Confessions all address these topics in some way. Though not all are Ecumenical Councils or accepted by ECs, none of them fundamentally disagree on these topics.
 
The only issue with the “we suffer because of Adam’s guilt” position is that suffering remains after Baptism, which removes every iota of guilt and sin. The effects last even though the guilt is remitted. As to exactly why the effects remain, my own theory on this (not dogmatic by any means) is that suffering becomes salvific for us once we are part of the Body of Christ, whereas before Baptism it only causes us pain. But again that is not some kind of doctrine or theory I would impose or demand on anyone, it’s just what makes sense to me at my current level of understanding.
I agree with this, but sub Baptism for the Atonement itself. Suffering, even death, is working towards the Christian's salvation. Us suffering on account of Adam is undeniable, what was being called into question is the Pelagian idea that God punishes us for something that we are legally innocent of.
 
I agree with this, but sub Baptism for the Atonement itself. Suffering, even death, is working towards the Christian's salvation. Us suffering on account of Adam is undeniable, what was being called into question is the Pelagian idea that God punishes us for something that we are legally innocent of.
Technically, the Pelagian idea is that we haven’t been punished at all. Part of their heresy is that Adam was naturally mortal and would have died whether he sinned or not, and therefore we are all born in the same state as pre-fall Adam since his sin only harmed him and not the rest of the human race. Pelagianism has been condemned with as much Ecumenical force as Arianism, Nestorianism, and the rest of them.
 
Technically, the Pelagian idea is that we haven’t been punished at all. Part of their heresy is that Adam was naturally mortal and would have died whether he sinned or not, and therefore we are all born in the same state as pre-fall Adam since his sin only harmed him and not the rest of the human race. Pelagianism has been condemned with as much Ecumenical force as Arianism, Nestorianism, and the rest of them.
I'm under the impression that you are an outlier within your denomination. I have a question for you:

According to the Council of Carthage (418), Canon 2: Infants are to be baptized for the remission of sins, while recognizing that they have not committed any sin themselves, yet they are to be truly baptized for the remission of sins.

How do you understand this? What sins are being remitted? Is it the sin of Adam? If so, how can someone have sin and not be guilty? Or is this baptism to be understood as ceremonial and little else?
 
I'm under the impression that you are an outlier within your denomination. I have a question for you:

According to the Council of Carthage (418), Canon 2: Infants are to be baptized for the remission of sins, while recognizing that they have not committed any sin themselves, yet they are to be truly baptized for the remission of sins.

How do you understand this? What sins are being remitted? Is it the sin of Adam? If so, how can someone have sin and not be guilty? Or is this baptism to be understood as ceremonial and little else?
I am an outlier - though before 1960 I don’t believe I would have been - but there is a growing group of Orthodox students who are looking more deeply into these matters and realizing that a decent amount of what passes for “common knowledge” in Orthodoxy is actually just modernist error. Generally that error can be defined as “trying so hard to be ‘not Western’ that they end up throwing our own dogmas away by mistake.”

Carthage 418, which has Ecumenical authority (the highest level of dogmatic Orthodox authority), explicitly and unambiguously states that infants are Baptized for the remission of sin. As they have no personal sins weighing on their souls, the sin being remitted is the sin of Adam.

Some Orthodox voices take the schizophrenic approach that babies are Baptized for the remission of sin and yet the stain of Adam’s sin could not be passed on to his descendants. Obviously this is incoherent - if the sinfulness of Adam reached the rest of us, then it was transmitted somehow and inherited from him somehow. Those promoting such a view are not thinking clearly or deeply about what they’re saying.

My view - and my priest shares this view - is that the sin of Adam is present in all of us in a way that requires forgiveness / remission but without making us personally guilty of having committed it. I think it’s a mistake to discuss original sin as if it’s a simple equation like 2+2=4, since it is a deep mystery of our faith which seems to transcend simple logic (though St. Augustine gave the most thorough systematic presentation of the topic). St. Symeon the New Theologian describes it as a mystery of our faith as well. What we inherit appears to be not personal guilt, but Adam’s guilty nature; this is how guilt can be “present,” in a sense, though we are not personally culpable for having committed Adam’s sin.

Though people unfamiliar with this topic often say that St. Augustine invented the doctrine, it is explicitly present in St. Cyprian’s Council of Carthage 252, more than 150 years before St. Augustine wrote about it, as described in Paragraph 5 of St. Cyprian’s Epistle 58 to Fidus (feel free to ignore the links in the passage, they came with the copy-paste from the site linked below):

“But again, if even to the greatest sinners, and to those who had sinned much against God, when they subsequently believed, remission of sins is granted — and nobody is hindered from baptism and from grace— how much rather ought we to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins— that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another.”

St. Cyprian and the 66 Bishops who agreed with him at that Council surely didn’t believe they were innovating the doctrine either, but rather that they simply held the view passed down from the very beginning.

Here is the full Epistle: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050658.htm
 
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My point about Father Panayiotis and modernist error is being demonstrated in real-time today as Trisagion Films appears to be hard at work deleting or shadowbanning all quotes from Saints and Councils from the comment section of their newest video.

Not only does said video fail to cite a single Canon, Council, Confession or Catechism that supports their “infant universalism” - but it further fails to cite a single Saint who agrees with them. The reason why is no great mystery; infant universalism has never been professed or affirmed by any conciliar or authoritative Church document in 2,000 years.

Instead the video simply dismisses various Saints like Augustine, Nikodemos and Nektarios by either falsely accusing them (in Augustine’s case) or hand-waving their beliefs away in some other fashion.

There is a reason the deniers of original sin are forced to behave in such a way in order to maintain their anti-Orthodox doctrines.
 
Not only does said video fail to cite a single Canon, Council, Confession or Catechism that supports their “infant universalism” - but it further fails to cite a single Saint who agrees with them.
I am going to have to steal "infant universalism." That's a good one. I also see a "pagan universalism," which is the idea that if you've never heard the Gospel or heard of Christ then you're automatically saved, as if God owes guilty sinners salvation.

If either of those were true, it would seem that you have better odds of salvation by never hearing the Gospel in the first place and run a greater risk of damnation by actually hearing the Gospel.
 
I am going to have to steal "infant universalism." That's a good one. I also see a "pagan universalism," which is the idea that if you've never heard the Gospel or heard of Christ then you're automatically saved, as if God owes guilty sinners salvation.

If either of those were true, it would seem that you have better odds of salvation by never hearing the Gospel in the first place and run a greater risk of damnation by actually hearing the Gospel.
Steal away! And yes, there is a somewhat dark conclusion from infant universalism in that it could almost seem to justify infanticide on the grounds that it would be better for the baby to die - since they're already saved in this view - before they have a chance to grow up and lose salvation.

The teachings of the Orthodox Fathers conclude that there is no "limbo" or middle place between Heaven and Hell, as per Carthage 418, and thus anyone who dies must go to one place or the other. They also teach that one does not enter the Kingdom of God without Baptism or some other "equivalent" based on logistical reality, such as a Muslim who accepts Christ and then is immediately killed by other Muslims - in which case that person can be said to be "baptized in blood" - or as with the Penitent Thief, when the desire for Baptism is there but there is physically no way to make it happen since he was dying on a cross at the time of his conversion. Therefore, a person who dies without Baptism is normatively outside the Kingdom of God.

However, the Fathers were also very careful when discussing this extremely sensitive subject and made it clear that the babies who died without Baptism were not suffering in hell as if they had sinned. Instead they tended to take positions like St. Augustine's, in which even their experience of hell is better for them than having not been born at all, or St. Ambrose's who speculated they may have a "hidden immunity from punishments." In other words, the "hell" that those without personal sin experience is more just "not experiencing the Kingdom of God" than any form of active torment or burning. Kind of like a natural happiness but not a supernatural one. Though Dante was obviously Roman Catholic and not Orthodox, I have no issue with his concept of various layers of hell in which the punishment is proportional to the sin of the person. His top layer is for "virtuous pagans" and they're not suffering, they're just kind of hanging out there without knowing what they're missing. As Jesus describes His Father's house as having "many mansions" it makes sense to me that hell would likewise not be the same for everyone.

There is also the very real efficacy and power of prayer to release souls from Hades, as the Orthodox have prayers and services specifically for this topic, so there is really no reason to lose hope in the salvation of those who die without Baptism. But infant universalism may prevent someone from praying said prayers, ironically (and sadly) leading to exactly the outcome which they were misled to believe could never happen in the first place.

Craig Truglia has a solid article on this topic:
 
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@BrotherAugustine and @GodfatherPartTwo I don't know much about theology, but I appreciate the conversation you're having. I've always found the idea that if you've never heard of Jesus you're automatically saved hard to understand and yet many Christians seem to believe that. If that were true, it would beg the question of why we even bother preaching the gospel. It doesn't seem like we'd really be doing anyone a favor by letting them know about Christ.

Same with this idea, which I'd never thought of before but would make sense if you buy the idea that all infants who die are all saved whether or not they're baptised:

"...infant universalism in that it could almost seem to justify infanticide on the grounds that it would be better for the baby to die - since they're already saved in this view - before they have a chance to grow up and lose salvation."
 
Separation from a relationship with God still makes me grieve, it makes me want to cry. At the same time God knows if they would have received greater punishment if they were baptized and fell away. What I draw from this is that Christian parents have a responsibility to pray for their miscarriages with tears, participating in the infants' suffering as Christians.

"Did not the first female martyr (Thecla) save Falconilla after death? But you will say that she was worthy to do so, since she was the first female martyr, and it was fitting that her prayer be heard. But I say to you, yes she was the first female martyr, but look at the sort of person for whom she made the request: a pagan idol worshipper, an altogether unholy servant of another lord!"
— St. John of Damascus

Basically, we don't have to be the first female martyr to pray with confidence for our infants who have died un-christened. Prayers for the dead also make me consider the theological implications. God is already perfectly just and merciful. So do our prayers truly change His judgements? It's a mystery, but God not granting child to Hannah until she fasted and grieved does not indicate to me at least that God did not want to give her child, but rather that He waited until Hannah could participate in that sacrifice of fasting and grief and suffering to grant what He already wanted to grant.
 
And yes, there is a somewhat dark conclusion from infant universalism in that it could almost seem to justify infanticide on the grounds that it would be better for the baby to die - since they're already saved in this view - before they have a chance to grow up and lose salvation.
Yes. The Molech-worshipping Abortionists would suddenly become the good guys.

Therefore, a person who dies without Baptism is normatively outside the Kingdom of God.
I don't expect us to come to an agreement on this, but I place a heavier emphasis on what God has already accomplished for the believer, rather than what the believer must now do. Or in other words, I don't believe God loses any one of His sheep. But that's a topic for another time.

However, the Fathers were also very careful when discussing this extremely sensitive subject and made it clear that the babies who died without Baptism were not suffering in hell as if they had sinned. Instead they tended to take positions like St. Augustine's, in which even their experience of hell is better for them than having not been born at all, or St. Ambrose's who speculated they may have a "hidden immunity from punishments." In other words, the "hell" that those without personal sin experience is more just "not experiencing the Kingdom of God" than any form of active torment or burning. Kind of like a natural happiness but not a supernatural one.
This gets too far into the speculative territory for me. I truly do not know what the eternal destiny of any one dead infant is. All I know is that God would be justified to condemn us all, but that He chooses to have Grace on whom He will, He is free to do it with anyone, and He always does what is right. I believe an infant can die and be saved, even without baptism, only because God is free to do so. But I am not in a position to force anyone to believe that they all go to Heaven or that they all go to Hell, nor have I been given that answer.

Though Dante was obviously Roman Catholic and not Orthodox, I have no issue with his concept of various layers of hell in which the punishment is proportional to the sin of the person. His top layer is for "virtuous pagans" and they're not suffering, they're just kind of hanging out there without knowing what they're missing. As Jesus describes His Father's house as having "many mansions" it makes sense to me that hell would likewise not be the same for everyone.
Degrees of punishment or degrees of hell is eminently Biblical.

There is also the very real efficacy and power of prayer to release souls from Hades, as the Orthodox have prayers and services specifically for this topic, so there is really no reason to lose hope in the salvation of those who die without Baptism. But infant universalism may prevent someone from praying said prayers, ironically (and sadly) leading to exactly the outcome which they were misled to believe could never happen in the first place.
I don't believe we can pray people out of hell, if hell is the sentence then who am I to overturn the Judge's verdict?
 
I don't believe we can pray people out of hell, if hell is the sentence then who am I to overturn the Judge's verdict?
That's a good question. There are also those- even in non-Orthodox testimonies that went to hell and came back to life. This is a question that touches upon whether or not the judgement is final after death or after the second coming. And upon the mystery of intercession with God. The Old Testament is full of examples of intercession seemingly changing God's action in time.

My opinion is that it's because God wants His image (man) to participate in His sufferings and inner life in order to go through with His plans. Moses and Israel (Israel was very disobedient, yet God heard Moses.) Then God waited until the incarnation of His Son in time to bring what He had already wanted to accomplish, salvation. I know this isn't a clear example of someone in hades being raised up, but St. Paul did not consider it useless to pray for the passed away Onesiphorus for God's mercy on him specifically in the last judgement, not the first judgement.
 
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So what proportion of people go to hell? If I look around it seems everybody around is going to hell and most likely myself as well. I’d estimate 95% of Americans are going to hell probably more.

I don’t agree with the OP that hell doesnt exist, but possibly a Purgatory although I know the Orthodox don’t buy this. To me it would make sense for a loving God to cleanse his children mostly unless the level of sin is too great. That seems more loving than an eternity of punishment.
 
So what proportion of people go to hell? If I look around it seems everybody around is going to hell and most likely myself as well. I’d estimate 95% of Americans are going to hell probably more.

I don’t agree with the OP that hell doesnt exist, but possibly a Purgatory although I know the Orthodox don’t buy this. To me it would make sense for a loving God to cleanse his children mostly unless the level of sin is too great. That seems more loving than an eternity of punishment.
I have no way of knowing, but a lot of scripture suggests that it's a very large proportion. From Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

More speculation on my part, but I was recently thinking something similar to your idea here, that an eternity of torture is hard to square with the idea of a loving God. Then I thought that maybe Hell is just being cut off from God by your own choice for eternity and being left to the nonexistent mercy of the demons and your fellow lost souls. That is, God doesn't create the lake of fire, your fellow damned souls do. Similar to what happens in the nastier wars or prisons here in this life. Maybe some of the other members who know more about theology can comment on this idea.
 
I have no way of knowing, but a lot of scripture suggests that it's a very large proportion. From Matthew 7:



More speculation on my part, but I was recently thinking something similar to your idea here, that an eternity of torture is hard to square with the idea of a loving God.

It is.

Then I thought that maybe Hell is just being cut off from God by your own choice for eternity and being left to the nonexistent mercy of the demons and your fellow lost souls.

That’s a very valid point. I heard a pastor discuss this in response to the repent on your deathbed argument.

He stated that by that point it would be impossible because a person has hardened themselves so much over the years to God’s mercy and calls for repentance. So much so that they would even reject God’s last call. Makes sense in terms of habits, the habits formed are against God and it takes a lot to
change.



That is, God doesn't create the lake of fire, your fellow damned souls do. Similar to what happens in the nastier wars or prisons here in this life. Maybe some of the other members who know more about theology can comment on this idea.
 
However, the Fathers were also very careful when discussing this extremely sensitive subject and made it clear that the babies who died without Baptism were not suffering in hell as if they had sinned. Instead they tended to take positions like St. Augustine's, in which even their experience of hell is better for them than having not been born at all, or St. Ambrose's who speculated they may have a "hidden immunity from punishments." In other words, the "hell" that those without personal sin experience is more just "not experiencing the Kingdom of God" than any form of active torment or burning. Kind of like a natural happiness but not a supernatural one. Though Dante was obviously Roman Catholic and not Orthodox, I have no issue with his concept of various layers of hell in which the punishment is proportional to the sin of the person. His top layer is for "virtuous pagans" and they're not suffering, they're just kind of hanging out there without knowing what they're missing. As Jesus describes His Father's house as having "many mansions" it makes sense to me that hell would likewise not be the same for everyone.
Is there any specific writings on what the experiences of virtuous pagans in their afterlife state that you would recommend to study on this topic? I was wondering how church fathers of the past that esteemed thinkers like Plato, Plotinus and Aristotle and use of their writings to argue for the faith have thought about their fate post death.
 
I am going to have to steal "infant universalism." That's a good one. I also see a "pagan universalism," which is the idea that if you've never heard the Gospel or heard of Christ then you're automatically saved, as if God owes guilty sinners salvation.

If either of those were true, it would seem that you have better odds of salvation by never hearing the Gospel in the first place and run a greater risk of damnation by actually hearing the Gospel.
Wouldn't a logical outcome of this line of thought be it that it's better to never have children and instead live like the Shakers or some of the Gnostic influenced sects from the Middle Age did?
 
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