As posted in the thread that led to this one:
The Abortion Thread
- Thread starter BrotherAugustine
- Start date
No, I mean if it is truly necessary.
I dont know if you know why Ireland repealed its anti-abortion laws. But, basically, doctors refused to give a woman an abortion and she died during childbirth. If memory serves, the baby was either dead by the time of the birth, or would not survive after birth.
Many people were incensed at this and it ended up in a repeal of their abortion laws.
I dont know if you have children, but if you do, and prepared for their birth, you will know that you have to be ready to potentially make a decision regarding which of two lives to save. Thankfully, I did not have to make that decision, and I am still not sure what decision I would have made then.
My issue is, there are times when an abortion is medically necessary to save the mothers life, and there are sometimes it can be necessary to sacrifice the mother for the child, or the child for the mother, and I think when you talk about abortion you need to acknowledge this fact.
Laws can always be drafted to ensure that it is only these times that an abortion is carried out and that spurious reasons for medical intervention remain illegal.
I have four children and was present at every birth and I know that this decision plays in the back of your mind. Always choose for your wife (if you can) in such a situation as she is the mother of the other (also potential) children. I think DanielH would agree
Thank God I never had to do that.
That would have been my choice, but my wife was adamant that I choose the baby, so I am very glad I did not have to make the choice.
This makes sense as it's the common gameplan to push all of this. It's always the exception that is used. Find the exception, magnify it, and project it among the population, to push forward the satanic agenda for the general group.
You didn't address me but I still want to answer this. I do. We have five. All homebirths. I've talked about this elsewhere but in general I think we as a culture are over the top when it comes to what we think we should and can control. This has bearing when it comes to birth as well.
There is something wrong about how we think about laws in general. These circumstances are extremely unique and it is truly impossible to know exactly what the outcome would or wouldn't be. The best thing would to simply have a whole culture who can put things into the hands of God and respect the child in the womb as an image of God and wrestle accordingly in tough circumstances. Needing to have a law about abortion already basically represents a step backwards where a compensation is needed for people looking for excuses. The next best thing is to recognize a strict law equating abortion to murder. Given that, you would work with whatever specific circumstances happened and decide whether it seems like murder.
But yeah, our culture now is way beyond that.
I agree. When a woman is hemorrhaging, as used to frequently lead to death during pregnancy and childbirth, then I think it is acceptable if the pregnancy must be terminated in the process of stopping the medical emergency.
I agree that a lot of time, an excuse about the woman's health is given, with no legitimate basis. Often the excuse given is mental health. The poor s lut wants to kill her baby, and it hurts her feelings to be prevented from doing so. I'm opposed to abortions in these cases.
The number of legitimate medical emergencies is probably between 0.2% to 0.4% of all abortions currently, perhaps much smaller. I would certainly outlaw the rest, and treat them as murder under the law.
Also, in most cases there is a medical emergency doctors can just deliver the baby prematurely. The cases where an abortion is strictly necessary to save the mother's life or physical health are even rarer. But if the physicians in their best judgement do see it to be necessary, and probably more than one should have to approve the abortion, I think the state should not prosecute them.
I agree. Many cases that once resulted in death of the baby or the mother can now be safely resolved without it being necessary to sacrifice the baby for the mother's sake. The number of cases where that choice is legitimately necessary is very small.
I think every such case should be treated similarly to any other homicide. If you shoot somebody in self defense, the police will investigate you and satisfy themselves that no charges should be brought. Likewise if a medical case requires ending a pregnancy, an investigation should automatically be held to determine if it was medically necessary and unavoidable.
This brings up more problematic issues. We live in a Babylon that has already been given up to base desires, sick communists and women who largely rule over us, and for the time being the only good thing we can say as Americans is that locally we might be able to be peaceful and have options to eat or entertainment, compared to the other nonsense that goes on in the world. It's quite clear that at best we have some small remnant of people that aren't into the desires of a communist government, but they have little power in the larger picture. Whatever that group is still sends its daughters off to college and to be unchaperoned and unmarried in life, and not having kids. That's why I question the be fruitful and multiply command as being seemingly old testament, because we were fruitful and multiplied, but that came along with destruction and faithlessness and now even normal people are paying the price since there are basically no women around and most laws are anti male. I find that some that escape this and get married devolve into the quiet struggles of marriage and don't speak openly about how the culture still hasn't change and there isn't a future until a culling happens, like the one in the 20th century that allowed for the boom that we have experienced, and also debased us. What's more I haven't heard 1 orthodox priest talk about how men have no future here because there isn't any female beauty to work for, as Cappy says, they all blame the issue on men, as tons pile into orthodox churches where precisely no young women are. It's sorta funny and forgive me Brother Augustine, but you are smart and I believe you know what's going on, and I'm not wishing for anything but it's clear the culling and pain have to come, that's how it always happens and I don't see historically God disallowing it, it's pretty clear we have to bear it regardless of what we think or how important we think our 80 years on this earth is.
There aren't any.
Exactly.
It is grim for those of us that are considering the future of our children and possible paths for them. I heard somewhere that the "be fruitful and multiply" command includes bearing fruit to basically a "spiritual baby". A spiritual state of being that brings Christ into the world. I'll try to find the context of that but it was one of the church fathers talking about this. We take it for granted that if we have kids we want to put them into a place better off than ourselves. But I think we've erred too far in the material. We should be thinking how to leave our children spiritually better off than ourselves. This is a much more difficult task practically.
Are you sure priests don't talk about this? One thing that has drawn me to the Orthodox faith is this cultivation of perspective. We ask God for love and He gives us troubled people to take care of. He is answering our prayers. But yeah, easier said than done. I see the same implications you do, and the more you see the more uncomfortable it gets.
I agree with this. Isn't it interesting again to notice that when you pay too much mind to women and children both get worse, remarkably lower and lower quality? There's a lesson that some might call black pill, but it's just the obvious truth to those who see things as they are.
I haven't seen it. And this is from priests who have many great qualities. They are equally as frail in standing up to any cultural norm or authority (see covid, see feminism, etc). About the only hill they'd die on would be women priests.
I do see Biden and Harris on their social media blaming Trump for ending abortions etc and Biden saying he wants to reverse that, It does seem like Trump has lowered abortions and hopefully its a step in the right direction to criminalizing abortions in the near future, the conversation has definately been ignited, to be honest I think Trump would get more support if he totally condemned abortion in all its forms. A baby is fully human and its murder to kill the child
I think this is a result of an overly feminized society. A mothering mindset pays too much mind, and now its grown to such a gross extent it smoothers life. The irony is that the supposed "care and love" ends up destroying children. The same mentality is even behind some of the tendency towards abortion. "Family Planning" so much that, in a effort to have perfect child rearing environment, there is abortion to time it just right.
Children actually thrive better with a bit of space. So do women, actually. What is interesting is how this is tied to why it's ideal to have many kids, if you have kids. You are then naturally forced to not pay too much mind to each of them. You can't smoother them because there's simply too many. They have a healthy growth and they are naturally motivated to cultivate relationships with their siblings.
Bingo.
There's another part I talk about all the time. The crossing over of the genes and the quality that you have is inevitably fragile. You can have fine kids with different aptitudes but it's easy to have 1 or 2 duds. Yes, you'll still love them but I think the worst thing in the world is to limit your chances AND then spoil and give them a worse outcome by not having siblings. You also save yourself time and attention if they can just play with their siblings. This is another modern spoiled woman thing - 1 or 2 kids. You should have 3-4 minimum.
Apologies for going off-topic, but why is this in culture and entertainment? Kind of killed the mood while I was looking for the video game thread...
Priests are representatives of Christ, that doesn't mean that they are without flaw, but if you can't find a priest saying something, then that could be due to your expectation of what they ought to be saying being out of whack.
Why would a priest tell men they have no hope? They are not ministers of Satan. You can find good priests answering what a man should do to find a wife. I know that both Fr Josiah Trenham and Fr Peter Heers have addressed this and their answers were similar: "grow closer to Christ" why would they say "don't bother, there's no hope to find a good woman."?
Fr Josiah for sure is not afraid to touch hot potatoes. If it was profitable for him to chastise secular feminist women (who aren't going to listen to him anyway) and tell young men there's no hope, I'm sure he would. The fact that you are seeking to find a priest to affirm this message and failing to find one might say what you need to know.
Its also the case that a priest's main vocation is the guidance of individual souls on a one to one basis. And those who do struggle with these things get advice tailored to them and hear what they need to hear. Its not always advisable to shout from the rooftops things that are best tailored to the individual. Not everyone deals with the same things in the same way, and it might profit you more to seek a priest's guidance on this stuff in private.