The Abortion Thread

GodfatherPartTwo said:
The Old Testament is filled to the brim with stories of Israel rejecting God's Will and being cursed as a result. If that isn't force, then I don't know what is. Moreover, He commands us to defend the orphan, whether we think it is politically expedient or not.
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That's all well and good but that's not force (compulsion), that's straight up punishment and I don't deny that America is ripe for God's punishment. I believe that God is weeping for this nation and spares us because there are still many praying and trying to do good works in his name. Okay, so grab your AR-15 and defend away (not recommended) or work within the system (politics) to end abortion. Some of you guys remind me of blacks who act like they're still in the cotton fields, denying that any progress has been made at all.

I'm betting there will be less abortions in five years compared to now, time will tell. All the while work to tighten restrictions as time goes by. You 'all or nothing' absolutists are going to get us all killed. But at this point we're just talking past each other and I'll move on, I'm not going to be an 'It_Is-My-Time" 😁
 
BrotherAugustine said:
It seems clear at this point that most people do not understand what actually happened when Roe was overturned and the decision went to the states. So I will say, yet again:

Abortion is completely legal in all 50 states, and all attempts to criminalize it have been fought by the “conservative” “pro life” lobby.

You are seeing this dynamic in action, before your very eyes here on this forum. This exact process has played out in the state courts.

Illegal: Running an abortion clinic.

Completely legal: Aborting a child outside of an abortion clinic, for example by buying an abortion pill at your local pharmacy, ordering abortion pills mailed to your house, or murdering your own unborn child in some other way (but only if you’re the mother, who is the sole exception to the law which otherwise counts this as murder.)

Hopefully I will not have to explain this again and we can at least discuss this issue understanding the situation.
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Lets accept this as true. Not sure it's 100 percent accurate in all 50 states as abortion inducing drugs are illegal in Texas... But regardless let's accept this as true.


I think we can all agree that the outcome we all want is for zero abortions. It should be criminally prosecuted on all sides.

That's not going to happen right now...and I doubt Republicans are going to bring up a bill to do this.

Again what is the point here?

You're argument is what in regards to Donald Trump?

We can agree but net net what's the rub?
 
Some added context:


This surprised me. Abortions do indeed seem to be up. According to the above article: increased by 8% from 2017 to 2020, reversing 30 years of a declining abortion rate.

Reasons given:

- Interstate travel
- Access to abortion in states that passed protective abortion policies.
- Abortion provided via telehealth

Another article:


And a chart showing the uptick:

CCE869E1-210B-434A-B894-3ABF4551B4A1.jpeg

This is sobering.

Edit: articles and charts show increase to 2020 but also project a further increase for 2023
 
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Get2choppaaa said:
Lets accept this as true. Not sure it's 100 percent accurate in all 50 states as abortion inducing drugs are illegal in Texas... But regardless let's accept this as true.


I think we can all agree that the outcome we all want is for zero abortions. It should be criminally prosecuted on all sides.

That's not going to happen right now...and I doubt Republicans are going to bring up a bill to do this.

Again what is the point here?

You're argument is what in regards to Donald Trump?

We can agree but net net what's the rub?
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Where does this line of thinking end? Should Republicans embrace trannyism and gay “marriage” as well?

Oh wait.
 
Northumber said:
Some added context:


This surprised me. Abortions do indeed seem to be up. According to the above article: increased by 8% from 2017 to 2020, reversing 30 years of a declining abortion rate.

Reasons given:

- Interstate travel
- Access to abortion in states that passed protective abortion policies.
- Abortion provided via telehealth

Another article:


And a chart showing the uptick:

View attachment 4238

This is sobering.
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Laws are only as good as them being enforced. Which is why the previous posters cultural change idea is spot on. Until you change the hearts of the people, things won’t change much.

We have immigration laws, but they are not enforced.

Seems we have abortion laws, but things are trending up, although we need more data from recent years.

I hate to say it this way, but this was George Soros’ ‘genius’ in simply buying off and appointing prosecutors who will not prosecute valid crimes. He realized that the laws don’t matter if you have DAs who don’t prosecute the offenders…the guys smart, evil but smart. You have to give him that.

With that said, the argument seems to be between idealism and practicality. I respect Brother Augustine’s fervor in this regard. If there were strong penalties as a deterrent, it would make people think twice. It’s like the guy who mouths off all the time until he meets someone who kicks his behind, most people would remember that in the future before mouthing off again.

I also don’t see exactly how we can force this behavior as a practical point though.
 
Iacobus said:
When there's a morally pure and Christian absolutist in contention to lead our country I'll make sure to lend him my support!
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I supported and campaigned for Mike Huckabee in 2008, I think that's as close as you can realistically get to what you've described above. He'd be attacked by the usual suspects here for any number of reasons. To criticize DJT on abortion is the most absurd thing I've seen in politics. I've defended Ron DeSantis from the same people for entirely different reasons. Doesn't matter who it is, nobody is ever good enough for the modern day Christian equivalent of the Pharisees.
 
Uzisuicide said:
I supported and campaigned for Mike Huckabee in 2008, I think that's as close as you can realistically get to what you've described above. He'd be attacked by the usual suspects here for any number of reasons. To criticize DJT on abortion is the most absurd thing I've seen in politics. I've defended Ron DeSantis from the same people for entirely different reasons. Doesn't matter who it is, nobody is ever good enough for the modern day Christian equivalent of the Pharisees.
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I agree.

I liked Mike Huckabee also. A populist and clearly a genuine Christian. He was excellent in the debates also.

I would have said that Jimmy Carter was no-doubt a genuine Christian man also. YET.... he was an AWFUL president.

There have been Emperors/Queens whom are considered Orthodox Saints ... both Old Testament and afterward that did acts that we would absolutely condemn on an individual level.

The point is that God can work through imperfect beings.

I am not saying Orange Man is a saint. But as I have said many many times: Show me an Orthodox Christian running for President that espouses ALL the exact views I have and maybe I'll entertain the notion of making him a king. Until then, we are where we are and we need to deal with the hand we are dealt. NOT.... the absolute perfect system that we WISH we had.

There is a phrase "Dont let be perfect be the enemy of the good" It's 100% applicable in this circumstance.
 
BrotherAugustine said:
To see my position as giving up practicality for idealism is to remove God from the equation and completely ignore the countless Biblical examples of how His blessings and curses work.
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I don't accept the script that you are arguing for an idealistic side that is divorced from practicality. The opposing argument here is saying "do nothing to criminalize abortion at a state level because it's too unpopular, when and if it ever becomes popular, then criminalize it." How is that not more hopelessly idealistic?
 
Starting a thread to discuss things related to abortion since it is being discussed elsewhere. I'll start the conversation.

Northumber said:
This surprised me. Abortions do indeed seem to be up. According to the above article: increased by 8% from 2017 to 2020, reversing 30 years of a declining abortion rate.

Reasons given:

- Interstate travel
- Access to abortion in states that passed protective abortion policies.
- Abortion provided via telehealth
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I don't think it's any of those. I think it simply boils down to the US Empire collapsing. Basically every negative social metric was on the rise in the USSR prior to its collapse, abortion being one of the main ones, but also alcohol consumption, drug use, suicide, et cetera - most of which are on the rise here in the US.
 
I'd like to see more information about telehealth. Someone else (@BrotherAugustine ?) mentioned that access to all these new abortion drugs being a potential source for an increase in abortions despite laws being passed against it. This dove tails into the increase of drug use in general and the general push of drugs by corporations.
 
Northumber said:
I'd like to see more information about telehealth. Someone else (@BrotherAugustine ?) mentioned that access to all these new abortion drugs being a potential source for an increase in abortions despite laws being passed against it. This dove tails into the increase of drug use in general and the general push of drugs by corporations.
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At first I dismissed the telehealth thing, but that is a good point... women don't even need to leave their home for an abortion. Call the doc, get the stuff mailed to you, then get more antidepressants to cope with it, maybe a sleep aid... it's sickening
 
I believe abortion pills have mostly replaced surgical abortion in the US. Some states such as Alabama do outlaw abortion pills, except in cases of medical emergency. I think that people are still able to get them illegally in these states, with the direct collusion of the US government to undermine these state laws. So, while there is at least some legal push back in anti-abortion states, these abortion pills are still very widely available.
 
Samseau, I get the impression from the way you type (and your invariable reliance on ad hominem attacks) that you are a very young man. As such, your zeal is perhaps understandable to a certain extent. But as an Orthodox Christian, I hope you will someday understand both the damage to your soul that comes from these kinds of worldly compromises and how bad it makes our faith look when someone calling himself Orthodox fights this viciously against criminalizing abortion. It has been sad to watch you promote and defend that position, as nothing I knew about you previously indicated that your priorities led to such things.

To those of you curious about how the Biblical principles behind all this work, I recommend St. Nikolai Velimirovic’s book “War and the Bible.” The short version is that God blesses the side that stays loyal to Him. I’m not telling anyone what to do or not do, but continuing to vote for a pro-gay, pro-abortion, Zionist bootlicker is not something I’m personally willing to face on Judgment Day.
 
BrotherAugustine said:
Samseau, I get the impression from the way you type (and your invariable reliance on ad hominem attacks) that you are a very young man. As such, your zeal is perhaps understandable to a certain extent. But as an Orthodox Christian, I hope you will someday understand both the damage to your soul that comes from these kinds of worldly compromises and how bad it makes our faith look when someone calling himself Orthodox fights this viciously against criminalizing abortion. It has been sad to watch you promote and defend that position, as nothing I knew about you previously indicated that your priorities led to such things.

To those of you curious about how the Biblical principles behind all this work, I recommend St. Nikolai Velimirovic’s book “War and the Bible.” The short version is that God blesses the side that stays loyal to Him. I’m not telling anyone what to do or not do, but continuing to vote for a pro-gay, pro-abortion, Zionist bootlicker is not something I’m personally willing to face on Judgment Day.
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I honestly have to ask you: Is your point that we shouldn't participate in the system until a perfect cadidtate shows up? If so, I reject that and its a surefire way to ensure we don't get the things we all incrementally want to happen.

I mentioned the Reconquista in another page.... sweeping arcs of history take time. We may be at a low point societally now... but the change doesnt happen overnight....

Really a lot of this Anti-Trump sentiment seems to come from the following:

Love turns to hate when people's expectations aren't met. And of course it's our own preconceived pedestal of expectation that causes it.

We want to believe someone will do something miraculous for ourselves and we build up in their mind that they'll do everything on every promise ECT... When in reality they are also a human. When they dont do ALL the Things we built them up to do in our mind, we have contempt for their failures and that is all we see.... when in fact it was our own perceptions that were askew.

Just and my ex wife...but I digress.
 
Cuchulainn said:
For those of you who call for a complete ban on abortions, do you include those that are medically necessary?
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If it's truly medically necessary it means two people would die instead of one, which is iirc incredibly, incredibly rare. In that case the abortion would be the lesser harm.

If you provide for easy medical exemptions, docs will just say the mother is depressed, or obese, or has thyroid issues, therefore the pregnancy is dangerous and therefore “medically necessary.”
 
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