The Abortion Thread

[Samseau]

Are you under the impression that abortion is somehow not murder? The issue here is simply whether the same protections are extended to unborn murder victims as to born murder victims. And even though I knew you’d disagree with me about Trump, I have to say I’m rather surprised to hear an Orthodox Christian speaking like a libertarian and listing reasons why we shouldn’t give the unborn equal protection under law.

It's totally and completely irrelevant to pass laws that cannot be enforced. It's like passing a law to stop the sun from rising every morning. This is a basic precept of law that has been understood for millennia, going back to the Greek times. Passing such a worthless law would only serve as a boogeyman to scare away support from the actual menace of closing down abortion clinics, which Trump has, the only President in our lifetimes to do so.

And by the way, no child has equal protection under the law, children are not adults and only get the protection of custody, and this has also been common law going back to the Greek times as well. I don't support equal protection for children and you shouldn't either, that's how the current genital mutilation legal arguments are trying to get through the courts right now.

 

[BrotherAugustine]

It's totally and completely irrelevant to pass laws that cannot be enforced. It's like passing a law to stop the sun from rising every morning. This is a basic precept of law that has been understood for millennia, going back to the Greek times. Passing such a worthless law would only serve as a boogeyman to scare away support from the actual menace of closing down abortion clinics, which Trump has, the only President in our lifetimes to do so.

And by the way, no child has equal protection under the law, children are not adults and only get the protection of custody, and this has also been common law going back to the Greek times as well. I don't support equal protection for children and you shouldn't either, that's how the current genital mutilation legal arguments are trying to get through the courts right now.

Now you are deliberately conflating one sphere of equal protection with enough in order to continue with this bizarre crusade to keep abortion legal as long as it’s done privately. I am shocked to see you defending that position at all, much less on a public forum, though Trump supporters taking that stance is just further evidence that we do indeed get the candidates we deserve.

If you had actually watched the video I posted, you would have learned that there are *more* abortions taking place in Louisiana since abortion *clinics* became illegal, as there are absolutely no consequences for at-home abortions and it is completely legal *in every single state* for a woman to murder her unborn child, and shutting down the clinics had no real effect. It is difficult to see how anyone serious about this topic would defend the position you’ve advanced, though you’ve given quite the illuminating example of what the pastors in that video warned about regarding their main opposition being “conservatives.”

 

[DanielH]

and this has also been common law going back to the Greek times as well.

Yeah back to when the Greeks ate food sacrificed to idols, and had romances with other men because there couldn't be true love to anyone that wasn't your equal, and women weren't equal to men? Those great Greek philosophers such as Socrates who was proud of being possessed by a demon?

It isn't "impossible" for the law to be enforced, which @BrotherAugustine is mentioning. I can easily think of two situations.

Woman gets pregnant. The father, married or not, wants to keep the baby. Woman texts the father "I'm aborting the baby at home" (not unrealistic for a woman to do) or is in another way recorded. Man goes home, it's too late. Finds abortifacient in trash bin, bloody metal clothes hanger, whatever. Pictures are taken. Woman is no longer pregnant. Man files a police report. If married, grounds for divorce and man doesn't risk losing half of his assets and retirement after his wife just murdered his child.

Scenario two. Evil woman livestreams her abortion at home, shifting Overton Window towards the demonic. That now can flat out not happen with the law @BrotherAugustine is proposing.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I think all abortion should be illegal and a mother should be charged just like the doctor.

But I don't think the American people are there.

Just because the southern Baptists in Louisiana are wanting to push for criminalization of it doesn't mean the people in AZ or PA or GA or the swing systems will go for it.

Abortion is such a polarizing issue and unfortunately it doesn't appear that it's a winning one for Republicans to push for an all out abortion ban country wide.

Again I would absolutely support it. But I don't see it being brought up and I do see it damaging political opportunities unfortunately.

I wish it weren't that way, but it seems to be that way currently.

 

[Christos_NIKA]

All abortion is a sin, and no Christian should equivocate on this, at least in my opinion. The Saints of the Church have spoken on this, as a matter of fact. However, a nationwide ban is never going to happen. The country is completely divided between increasingly polarized right vs. left. The SCOTUS actually did the right thing in sending this back to the States, where it should have remained from the beginning. Abolishing abortion is going to be a battle through several generations, and it will have to go state by state, by changing hearts and minds. The only other option would be a dictatorial top-down imposition of a ban, but that won't change hearts and minds.

 

[Samseau]

If you had actually watched the video I posted, you would have learned that there are *more* abortions taking place in Louisiana since abortion *clinics* became illegal

Sounds like you're believing in lies. How would anyone know this? You keep avoiding the main issue, of enforcement and knowledge, and instead parade on about moral purity.

Woman gets pregnant. The father, married or not, wants to keep the baby. Woman texts the father "I'm aborting him at home." (not unrealistic for a woman to do). Man goes over, it's too late. Finds abortifacient in trash bin, bloody metal clothes hanger, whatever. Pictures are taken. Woman is no longer pregnant. Man files a police report. If married, grounds for divorce and man doesn't risk losing half of his assets and retirement after his wife just murdered his child.


Scenario two. Evil woman livestreams her abortion at home, shifting Overton Window towards the demonic. That now can flat out not happen with the law @BrotherAugustine is proposing.

So this is a serious response, one that actually takes enforcement into question. In this case, it makes sense to make abortions illegal if it people are publically broadcasting their murder's at home. But making it illegal would only just move it underground, going back to the enforcement issue, however, I suppose it's improvement to abortion livestreams (which is disgusting). You've made a good argument here for making abortions illegal, now you need to help the masses understand this argument.

However, I must stop and ask, If we are in a society that is so broken and depraved that they enjoy watching abortions live, then there is also the question if such laws would make a difference? For example, even if murder was made decriminalized, does anyone think they'd be livestreaming murders constantly (which would only expose them to counter-attack) or would most people want to watch something so disgusting? In this case I think total revolution sounds more applicable. There is no way to share a nation with those who would casually watch a murder like it's entertainment, while bragging about it online.

So unless the above things you've stated are actually happening, there is no way to enforce an anti-abortion law at home.

 

[BrotherAugustine]

And why should we expect God to bless this country when those claiming to be on His side are more concerned with political power than His Word? That’s the entire problem I’ve been pointing out over and over again, the “conservative” attitude that “if we don’t let them kill babies we won’t get the power.”

A great campaign slogan for Republicans and Moloch alike.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

And why should we expect God to bless this country when those claiming to be on His side are more concerned with political power than His Word? That’s the entire problem I’ve been pointing out over and over again, the “conservative” attitude that “if we don’t let them kill babies we won’t get the power.”

A great campaign slogan for Republicans and Moloch alike.

That's a great stance and absolutist point to make and all... But it doesn't provide a pathway to accomplish the thing you want done.

Until it's all crumbles and smoldering ashes, we work in the system we are in.

Everyone agrees it should be illegal.

Everyone agrees it's wrong.

The reality is that it will not get enforced nationally. It has to be done statewide first... That's the reality... if you have figured out a way that could poof and change that... Let me know.

The house Republicans are working on new anti abortion bills currently...fyi...

 

[Samseau]

And why should we expect God to bless this country when those claiming to be on His side are more concerned with political power than His Word? That’s the entire problem I’ve been pointing out over and over again, the “conservative” attitude that “if we don’t let them kill babies we won’t get the power.”

A great campaign slogan for Republicans and Moloch alike.

When of course Christian history was 100% the opposite and turned the other cheek to evil all the time, from slavery, to concubines, wars for profit, etc.

Did Christians ever say these things were good? No. Did they muster all of their political capital into trying to repeal the impossible? Of course not, because that would have been the death of the Church trying to win an unwinnable fight (at the time).

“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

So does it make sense to spend all our political capital on an unwinnable fight today either, pushing for an unenforceable law with no real impact, such as a blanket ban against abortions, or would God just think we are fools who didn't listen to His son?

There are much, much, much more important fights that would lead to more control for our side, and thereby more restrictions on abortion, and right now if we cannot elect a President who is wildly popular then we have no chance at accomplishing anything else.

 

[BrotherAugustine]

There are much, much, much more important fights that would lead to more control for our side, and thereby more restrictions on abortion, and right now if we cannot elect a President who is wildly popular then we have no chance at accomplishing anything else.

You just keep repeating the same thing, which essentially boils down to compromising on Christianity for the sake of worldly power. If “your side” doesn’t care about this enough not to sell their souls for it then why would I believe they’ll be super serious about it later?

 

[Get2choppaaa]

You just keep repeating the same thing, which essentially boils down to compromising on Christianity for the sake of worldly power. If “your side” doesn’t care about this enough not to sell their souls for it then why would I believe they’ll be super serious about it later?

Again... What path to actually accomplishing what you're advocating are you saying is attainable in the current political realm? Republicans touting a desire for a nationwide ban did a doozie on the midterm and the "red wave" coupled with people like McCarthy's sabotaging the populist contenders like Masters and Kari Lake.

Wouldn't it make more sense to shift things incrementally where we can vs lose?

Stated again:

Wouldn't it make sense to get more anti-abortion leadership in power and slowly boil the frog vs never have the ability to change it at all?

I get the principal point and agree... But in practical reality I don't anticipate or see it coming to light on one giant national debate that will result in a win for our side.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Wouldn't it make more sense to shift things incrementally where we can vs lose?

The problem is the Republicans are the ones who are getting shifted incrementally, not the other way around. How did that start? By buying into the leftist frame and compromising on key issues such as abortion, immigration, gay "marriage" etc.

Wouldn't it make sense to get more anti-abortion leadership in power and slowly boil the frog vs never have the ability to change it at all?

I believed that's what would've happened back in 16 and was proven wrong. 8 years later and we've only gone even further to the left.

Putting the case of abortion in the states hands is only good if the states enforce the law and incriminate the murderers. Until then, if the current system remains, deciding if it's better upheld by federal law or state law is mental masturbation.

 

[Uzisuicide]

I think all abortion should be illegal and a mother should be charged just like the doctor.

But I don't think the American people are there.

Just because the southern Baptists in Louisiana are wanting to push for criminalization of it doesn't mean the people in AZ or PA or GA or the swing systems will go for it.

Correct, they absolutely are not and running on charging women for an abortion is a good way to lose elections and give power back to the people in support of abortion clinics in perpetuity. You have to bring the culture with you. State your case and articulate your rationale to society but arresting women is going to get conservatives kicked out of office and reverse all progress made on abortion. Further, it then cement the lefts destructive policies on everything else.

We are making serious headway on abortion because of Trump. The patience of the left is breathtaking. They persistently chip away at culture and push their agenda for generations and they're winning. Society resists quick, broad sweeping change and is still digesting the recent Roe ruling by the Court. Some of you guys need to learn to do what Newt Gingrich said and settle for a half a loaf now because you're coming back in the morning. Change takes patience and persistent work.

 

[Uzisuicide]

The problem is the Republicans are the ones who are getting shifted incrementally, not the other way around. How did that start? By buying into the leftist frame and compromising on key issues such as abortion, immigration, gay "marriage" etc.

We managed to overturn Roe by incrementalism and persistence. And you're correct that it's usually used successfully against Republicans. It's a process, doing the wrong thing is usually much easier and more attractive short term than doing the right thing. Morality is more difficult to achieve than immorality which presents an uphill battle but it's essential for long term survival. The less society embraces the Christian message the less it is going to be motivated to do the right thing. Re-Christianizing society is the main objective. Good luck changing and enforcing laws that society disagrees with you on.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

We managed to overturn Roe by incrementalism and persistence.

Again, meaningless if there still is no real penalty to getting an abortion. Roe was an obstacle on the federal level. Now that it's out of the way, the next consistent step would be to penalize abortions for everybody involved at the state level.

The less society embraces the Christian message the less it is going to be motivated to do the right thing. Re-Christianizing society is the main objective.

Agreed. So why should we water down the Christian message on abortion in order to be more popular? It is not that the unchurched become more Christian by us watering down our message, the result is that we become less Christian.

Good luck changing and enforcing laws that society disagrees with you on.

If we are doing God's Will, He will bless us. If we are not doing His Will, He will curse us. That should be our ultimate concern. Resistance from the reprobate is a given.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Amen. The Hebrews were commanded to turn to God for military aid, not foreign nations. They disobeyed and were sent into captivity. The point is to not compromise and instead trust God will provide. We haven't done that here and are being sent into captivity with an unprecedented flood of foreigners and Jewish overlords. That's what we deserve. Lord have mercy.

Ok... Sure... But at the end of the day... With regard to Donald Trump... What does this all mean?

Are you suggesting that because we didn't get a total ban on abortion we shouldn't be voting for Trump?

I mean I agree with all the absolutism in theory... But it's not matriculated in a way we can vote on it.

So this leaves us all in agreement on the philosophical level but no action on the practical level.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

So this leaves us all in agreement on the philosophical level but no action on the practical level.

Overturning Roe is basically saying "abortion is wrong" on the philosophical level, but not following through with criminalizing it is a perfect example of no action on the practical level.

I mean I agree with all the absolutism in theory... But it's not matriculated in a way we can vote on it.

This is due to "pro-life" gatekeeping groups and Republicans who have no desire to do anything on the practical level.

Ok... Sure... But at the end of the day... With regard to Donald Trump... What does this all mean?

If Trump continues in this vein, and all signs suggest he will, then the best he can provide is MAGA at a philosophical level and no real action at the practical level.

 

[Uzisuicide]

Again, meaningless if there still is no real penalty to getting an abortion. Roe was an obstacle on the federal level. Now that it's out of the way, the next consistent step would be to penalize abortions for everybody involved at the state level.


Agreed. So why should we water down the Christian message on abortion in order to be more popular? It is not that the unchurched become more Christian by us watering down our message, the result is that we become less Christian.


If we are doing God's Will, He will bless us. If we are not doing His Will, He will curse us. That should be our ultimate concern. Resistance from the reprobate is a given.

I didn't say there would be no penalty. The fact that states can now close abortion clinics and punish doctors will have a chilling effect on the practice overall. You're not gonna stop every woman with a coat hanger and horror stories from home abortions will have a chilling effect as well. We'll have to see the data as it comes in over the next few years.

I'm not watering down the Christian message, just not throwing the baby out with the abortion hanger.

We can't force God's will on others who reject it. Even God himself doesn't do that. We do God's will by obeying his commandments and being the salt of the earth.

 

[Uzisuicide]

Overturning Roe is basically saying "abortion is wrong" on the philosophical level, but not following through with criminalizing it is a perfect example of no action on the practical level.


This is due to "pro-life" gatekeeping groups and Republicans who have no desire to do anything on the practical level.


If Trump continues in this vein, and all signs suggest he will, then the best he can provide is MAGA at a philosophical level and no real action at the practical level.

Overturning Row wasn't making any statement on the morality or immorality of abortion. It gave the states the right to make those judgements. States have begun outlawing abortion and are best suited for enforcement of those laws. We are at the beginning phases of this.

Trump can do nothing on abortion at this point. He has enabled the states to outlaw it as they see fit which they were unable to do before the Trump Presidency.

 

[BrotherAugustine]

It seems clear at this point that most people do not understand what actually happened when Roe was overturned and the decision went to the states. So I will say, yet again:

Abortion is completely legal in all 50 states, and all attempts to criminalize it have been fought by the “conservative” “pro life” lobby.

You are seeing this dynamic in action, before your very eyes here on this forum. This exact process has played out in the state courts.

Illegal: Running an abortion clinic.

Completely legal: Aborting a child outside of an abortion clinic, for example by buying an abortion pill at your local pharmacy, ordering abortion pills mailed to your house, or murdering your own unborn child in some other way (but only if you’re the mother, who is the sole exception to the law which otherwise counts this as murder).

Once the child is born, a mother murdering it counts as murder (but even this will not be directly addressed by certain elements of the “pro life” lobby, likely due to what an obvious inconsistency it is to say a fetus is a human being but murdering it is only murder once it’s been born).

Hopefully I will not have to explain this again and we can at least discuss this issue understanding the situation.