Monk Mode Celibacy

[analyst_green]

I'm happy that Fr. is encouraging men, but at some point we do have to level with many of the young men, and with the population at large. We are going through a transitional phase of humanity that isn't going to work out for most. I think people are reluctant to say that, but why shouldn't we? If we say it generically there are two implications: 1) what is going on and is coming will be difficult and 2) we aren't necessarily saying who is going to get through and who isn't. So it's not necessarily black pill, it's honesty, in telling everyone the probabilities are X or Y, but we don't know the particulars.

I told some of you before, I think even in this thread, that some solid priests or bishops/elders are saying that as men come back into the church, women will too. What they leave out is that this is going to take way longer than it might seem when just hearing it, and in a sense I find it to be a distraction or false promise, even if technically correct. It also fits my paradigm that the older generations are rather indifferent to these kind of harsh realities. In their defense, there is nothing they can do anyway, but I don't find it all that helpful to say that "things are changing" when you look into the face of young men 20-40, and in reality you know there ain't a gosh darn thing changing in anytime less than 15 years (for the better) - if that.

I honestly don't even know myself what I would recommend people do. People who know me would be far more blackpill if they realized my life situation, to be honest. I'd laugh if I didn't think I have a particular role in the future that has been revealed to me.

I'd say we could see some significant changes in just 5 years. Not in the entire female population and many will fully embrace wokeism, but I do think more and more women are waking up and so we can hope for a small minority that will find their way into the Church.

In less than 5 years the Orthodox Church has exploded in popularity among young men outside its historical populations. That's how fast things can change, and where men go women will follow but there is a lag. And granted, even waiting 5 years does not sound good for men over 30.

 

[Blade Runner]

Well, keep in mind that many men are not like us - they will be happy to enter into a relationship with a woman in her 30's or 40's, and get married, even if there is no chance for kids. For many men, not having children is fine, as long as they can get some kind of intimacy.

Good points.

That's how fast things can change, and where men go women will follow but there is a lag. And granted, even waiting 5 years does not sound good for men over 30.

I can also see such things happening, it's just that as Samseau points out above. we're more sensitive to the nonsense and also realize that if things even take any part of a decade or up to it, that locks out countless men and women.

I think the reason I don't like it even more is that I don't like the temptation part of it that rests deep down, which is that part that one wrestles with. In this clown world, sex isn't the issue in terms of acquiring it, it's just that it's really the only thing left and if you know where or how to pursue it in a sense it's easier than ever. That's what I don't like about the near term given the abilities I have - not being a prick, being honest.

 

[analyst_green]

I think the reason I don't like it even more is that I don't like the temptation part of it that rests deep down, which is that part that one wrestles with. In this clown world, sex isn't the issue in terms of acquiring it, it's just that it's really the only thing left and if you know where or how to pursue it in a sense it's easier than ever. That's what I don't like about the near term given the abilities I have - not being a prick, being honest.

I'm usually more worried about pornography, which is far more accessible and much easier than going out to fornicate. That actually takes some prior planning so you usually have time to think it over and stop yourself.

It's funny, when you're constantly using pornography, it's like you're invisible to women. But then when you don't spill your seed for a few weeks you get the NoFap "superpowers" and suddenly girls seem way more interested and start giving you sexual hints. So not only do you have more pent-up sexual energy, but then it becomes way easier to fornicate. And this sexual energy would not have been a problem in the past when women also kept themselves chaste and didn't dress like harlots, and a man could find a good wife in a reasonable length of time. So we're hit with a double whammy of few eligible wives and non-stop temptation.

All to say that these are very tough times when it comes to the lustful sins. But I believe God wants us to do our best to remain pure before marriage, no matter how hard we have to fight. Marriage shouldn't be our way of conquering this passion, rather we conquer it before. However, you're right that there's a limit to how many years a man can do this and not have the passion consume him.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

KINGS CAULDRON

I'd like to present a 90-day + Orthodox NOFAP spiritual real-life RPG game for anyone that would like to challenge themselves in a battle against the demon of lust.

Items you will need: an incense censer + incense, a pen/pencil, a paper calendar, lots of icons (print them out if you have to) + tape, & a permanent marker. Optional: Holy Water and Holy Oil to be used as needed and as you see fit.

(DISCLAIMER: This is for entertainment purposes only, and was merely a private creative writing exercise and plan I developed for myself but I've altered it to share it with you all for your potential edification, so forgive me in advance if you think this is questionable. I'm just an unworthy sinner. And no, the drawings on your private parts are not a joke, but a real deterrant. Think about it...)

---

Level 1

Day 1-5

Level: Beginner, Novice Monk

Achievement Symbol: Incense Censer

Struggle Intensity: Not too difficult, motivation will be high, but key is to not get overconfident. Humble yourself.

Spiritual Tasks: Prayers of repentance and asking God to send Holy Spirit clouds of Wisdom on you and your cell as you begin your journey. Incense your home while playing Orthodox Chants to slice open portals for God's Holy Angels, Saints, and the strength of our Holy Fathers to assist you and to ward off evil spirits. Put icons all over your home if you haven't already. Notate the levels/symbols/reward sizes (Not necessary to write the intensity/tasks, just read them here) on your calendar for the 5 levels/dates. Draw the Monk's Censer on your private area with the permanent marker. You have entered the battle realm. Gird your loins.

Reward: One simple, very tiny reward. For example, drink ONE glass of beer/wine (If you're under 21 or an alcoholic, have a milkshake or something)

---

Level 2

Day 6-14

Level: Intermediate, Magi

Achievement Symbol: Star of the Magi

Struggle Intensity: This may be the most difficult part of your journey. Your initial motivation and enthusiasm may have faded. At this stage it's important to be completely reliant on the Light of Christ to lift you up towards the Heavens.

Spiritual Tasks: Call upon Jesus Christ, the Star of Bethlehem, the Son of the Holy and Pure Virgin Mother, to guide you and keep you totally focused on Him, because without him, you will be in darkness and lost. Draw the Magi Star on your private area with the permanent marker. At nightfall, go outside alone, staring into the starry night sky with your hands open and completely surrender yourself to Lord Jesus Christ. Pray to Mother Mary for her Majestic Prayers to her Son that He will forgive you, heal you, and purify your Soul, lifting it up into Chastity.

Reward: A small reward. For example, buy yourself an Orthodox book that you've really been wanting.

---

Level 3

Day 14-30

Level: Transformational, Carpenter

Achievement Symbol: Crafting Hammer

Struggle Intensity: There may be wet dreams at this stage, possibly demonic, and while unwelcome, they do not require a restart. The struggle will be to not succumb to shame and despair if one happens to you, but to keep carrying your Cross. You will start to notice your cravings decrease in general, and the commonly reported positive transformations of NOFAP as well as God's Grace and Blessings will start to manifest.

Spiritual Tasks: Pray to God for discerning the positive changes that are beginning to occur at this stage and for His help in utilizing these tools to build upon your strengths. Draw the Crafting Hammer on your private area. Do something creative/active that you have been neglecting. Smash your private area with a hammer several times (Just kidding, please don't do this).

Reward: A significant reward. For example, sign yourself up for a gym/martial arts membership, or 100% commit yourself to a new hobby.

---

Level 4

Day 30-90

Level: Elite, Knight

Achievement Symbol: Knight's Sword

Struggle Intensity: The way you look at women and sexuality will be completely changed at this point, and others will notice. Your confidence levels will be at an all time high. It will be challenging to defend yourself from the female attention you will receive, so wield your sword wisely. There will be a new Light born in your eyes that people will start to see.

Spiritual Tasks: Pray to God that he will make you a worthy, traditional husband, or a pious celibate man, and that he will lead you to important figures in your life like a spouse, Spiritual Father, or a Priest/Church if you don't already have/belong to one. Draw the Knight's Sword on your private area.

Reward: Big reward! For example, plan and go on a Holy pilgrimage, attend a service at a Parish out of town/state, or sign up for an Orthodox event you want to go to.

---

Level 5

Day 90 and beyond

Level: Master, King

Achievement Symbol: King's Crown

Struggle Intensity: You've completed the challenge, you've slain the demon of lust, and completely humiliated him. You're resurrected. Now the struggle will be to wear your crown for the rest of your life, and use it to enter higher level struggles unrelated to this challenge. A new type of demon will seek to dethrone you, but you will not allow it!

Spiritual Tasks: Pray Prayers of Praise and sing Hymns of thanksgiving to God the Father for allowing you to make it to the final stage of mastery, and that He will free you from this temptation, permanently changing you forever. Draw the King's Crown on your private area. Go outside at peak sun in public, open your arms to God and ask for His Illumination so that the crown He has bestowed upon you will shine with Glory.

Reward: HUGE reward!!! For example, get married to your wife, conceive your first child, enter a monastery, become a Priest, or a missionary, etc.

+++

 

[Blade Runner]

So we're hit with a double whammy of few eligible wives and non-stop temptation.

Yes. I think the porn thing is just silly and gets old, to the extent that it's some vestige but you realize it's so dumb that you're constantly asking yourself, what's the point even?

Marriage shouldn't be our way of conquering this passion, rather we conquer it before.

I think that's actually the point of marriage, so you don't burn with the passion.

I find it weird in the modern day that women act like men objectify them but then do all manner of things so as to only think them worth any time at all by ... objectifying them. I know insight isn't their strong suit, but do they actually think they add to a man's life? I actually don't even think they think about this, to be honest. They just work and look at things like a man does, which is that the man should come to her.

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

Draw the Monk's Censer on your private area with the permanent marker.

 

[Blade Runner]

I tell people to never give up. But they do need to move on. They don't raise up proper women here, so unless you want to be a monk, you gotta say buh-bye. If you're OK with old women, then of course you'll have your pickings. That may be for some. I cannot say I am one of those, though.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

 

[Lawrence87]

If someone said "I have a device to attach to your wrist that will register if you masturbate, and if you wear it for 3 years and it doesn't register at all in that time, I'll give you £10 million." Most of us would find that this challenge takes on a different character. We would become resourceful, we would have motivation, most temptations would be quelled with a simple thought of what we would be sacrificing. Masturbation feels good but £10 million would be better.

The issue is, for us who are embarking on this journey for spiritual reasons. We don't see a reward. Thus in the darkness of temptation, there is no clear sense of what we are resisting for.

For this reason, I think it is important to continually remind oneself firstly that we aren't denying ourselves something good. We have not entered into a state of dullness and deprivation, but actually a better state, and that giving in to the sin of masturbation is actually foolish and harmful. Secondly we need to have a clear perception of the paths that lay before us in our temptation: the path of virtue and the path of vice. What does our future self look like if we give in fully to either of these? Which outcome would we prefer for ourselves? One cannot go down both roads at once, the option to change is ever present, but the further down the road of vice you go, the further you have to backtrack just to get yourself to the start of the road to virtue.

Faith that our struggle will be rewarded is imperative. That we are truly pushing something greater than fleeting pleasure away when we give in to temptation. The struggle for finding a virtuous wife is real, and one should definitely not think of the struggle as transactional in this regard. But consider the possibility that you do meet a chaste Christian woman. Is she going to want a man who cannot stop self abusing to videos of other people having sex? The answer is no. Why then would you insist on making lower your chances in an already difficult situation? That is not to say she will magically appear if you give up this sin, but it is senseless to continue on a path that would make you undesirable should you meet such a person.

 

[Blade Runner]

The issue is, for us who are embarking on this journey for spiritual reasons. We don't see a reward. Thus in the darkness of temptation, there is no clear sense of what we are resisting for.

That's sadly the same for the fornication reality, since so few women are around that want to be wives and mothers. Of course, when I say that, I mean so few women are around who want to be wives and mothers and are willing to pay a price to achieve it (seek it while young, be in shape, don't be old, etc). I think the worst part of the porn thing is that it's a combination of unreal imaging that's processed differently and it's voyeurism. It just happens to take advantage of the fact that men are visual and thus it can stimulate them. Sex as something real, again not promoting it, is at least a real action that is a man and a woman. In at least that regard, it is healthy. Other aspects of it might not be ordered, so perhaps it shouldn't be engaged in - but it's a healthy act in itself.

 

[Hermetic Seal]

This video really illustrates what I’d describe as my biggest hangup or reservation about the faith, four years into my Orthodox experience: namely, the musings of monastic elders being treated as infallible and raising the bar for behavior so ludicrously high that virtually nobody, certainly not myself, can live up to it.

I’m reminded of this quote by Christ in Matthew 23.4:

“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

First though, I’ll say that I completely agree that the sodomite sexual activities/those acts outside of intercourse are wrong. I never had any particular attraction to these anyway, and there’s a clear logic to it. Also, any sort of contraception that could cause an abortion or miscarriage is obviously also wrong. So I have no concerns on those points.

But beyond that, if I’m understanding this right, the gist (not limited to this video; incorporating stuff from other material like this and this) is something along these lines:

• Only have sex after sacramental-esque preparation
• The primary purpose is to make a baby, and if you’re doing anything non-abortifacent - condoms, natural family planning, etc. — it’s sin!
• Having sex while pregnant is a sin, so wait until you’re sure your wife isn’t pregnant before having sex again.
• If she is pregnant, having sex is a sin.
• Having sex after childbirth is a sin if the baby is still nursing
• Having sex during a fast or on a fasting day is a sin
• Having sex the night before taking Communion is a sin
• Having sex the same day as receiving Communion is a sin
• If you're past childbearing age, it's probably time to stop having sex
• Probably some more that I’m missing

So let’s grant that all of this is not just the personal opinions of guys who don’t have sex to begin with. If this is the case, virtually every time I’ve ever had sex with my wife has been a sin for some reason or another, both of my children are probably screwed up because we had sex while pregnant [and I should point out, I never had the slightest clue about any of this at that time], I’m probably screwed up because my parents had sex while I was in the womb, and we’re probably all going to hell anyway because obviously only monastics on Mt. Athos have any real chance at salvation.

Given all of this, one of two conclusions seems inevitable:

• Just don’t ever have sex with my wife at all because it’s virtually impossible for me to avoid sinning in the process, unless we’re specifically trying to have another baby - which in my dysfunctional family circumstances would be like trying to put out a fire by dumping napalm on it, so that’s not happening any time soon. The only safe way to avoid sin is to just not have sex at all, virtually ever.
• Just give up on trying to be holy or live Orthodox because it’s clearly impossible and beyond my abilities. If I’m just going to hell anyway, what’s the point of even trying?

Given that I already struggle with all the same contemporary high-tech enabled sexual temptations as everybody else around here, neither of these options seem to be particularly helpful in giving me a chance to overcome those sins. In fact, it seems likely that I'll only be more susceptible to that since even marital intimacy is almost never a legitimate sexual outlet.

As an aside, this all leads to the bizarre conclusion that the only married couples with fertility issues have any kind of opportunity for semi-consistent intimacy that may receive the Athonite seal of approval.

Granting again that all of this is actually true, I wish I’d had all this information as a young man before I met my wife, because I would likely have made very different life choices if I knew sexual intimacy was a mirage even within marriage. It all comes across as monastics talking out of both sides of their mouths - "Oh no, sex totally isn't intrinsically bad, both the family life and monastic life lead to salvation and are pleasing to God! Well, as long as you follow this long list of rules about sex and when you read the fine print, yeah, you should probably just go ahead and be a monk or nun." How am I not supposed to come to the conclusion that all this retroactively condemns my entire marriage before I became Orthodox?

I really don’t miss much of anything about my previous life as an evangelical otherwise, and though it’s true that contemporary evangelicalism is totally sex-obsessed and accepts many bad things uncritically, like hormonal contraceptives and sodomite activities within marriage... at least I could have normal intimacy with my wife without constantly worrying if it’s a sin and having to confess almost every time for some reason or another. Am I crazy for thinking that maybe a more realistic, viable approach is somewhere between these two extremes?

It’s a bit hilarious to me that Protestant apologists waste so much time making bad intellectual arguments against Orthodoxy and going on and on and on about icons when they could probably stop a lot of people, especially married couples, from converting by just making emotional appeals about how virtually all sex you’ve ever had with your spouse is sin, your kids are probably already warped as a result, and you’re expected to follow this long list of sex rules.

At least my wife is largely unaware of any of this, beyond the negative Orthodox attitude toward contraception. Since there’s not a ton of opportunity for intimacy to begin with when you have a toddler and a baby, she may not really notice if I just give up on sex altogether, but if she did know all of these lurid specifics, I have no doubt she’d just think Orthodoxy, and my involvement in it, is even more wacky than she already does. As usual it leaves me feeling totally alienated, trying to follow this extremely rigid way of life and not particularly eager or motivated to impose it on my otherwise disinterested family.

 

[benjamin]

I am a baby Orthodox so please be patient.

The teachings of the saints are not infallible. The best we can do is struggle, pray, repent, confess, go to church as often as we can, and live day by day. Read the scriptures and the lives of the saints, try to apply their teachings the best we can, but not to obsess or fall into despondency when we miss the mark, acknowledge our falls and pray that we be forgiven. Know our weaknesses and ask Christ for strength.

I miss the mark often. I fall often because of pornography. My eyes wander and I find myself looking at other men in an inappropriate manner every single day. I pray to God every day that He help me gain control over these passions but I also understand that these passions are a thorn in my side for my salvation.

 

[analyst_green]

This video really illustrates what I’d describe as my biggest hangup or reservation about the faith, four years into my Orthodox experience: namely, the musings of monastic elders being treated as infallible and raising the bar for behavior so ludicrously high that virtually nobody, certainly not myself, can live up to it.

I’m reminded of this quote by Christ in Matthew 23.4:

“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

First though, I’ll say that I completely agree that the sodomite sexual activities/those acts outside of intercourse are wrong. I never had any particular attraction to these anyway, and there’s a clear logic to it. Also, any sort of contraception that could cause an abortion or miscarriage is obviously also wrong. So I have no concerns on those points.

But beyond that, if I’m understanding this right, the gist (not limited to this video; incorporating stuff from other material like this and this) is something along these lines:

• Only have sex after sacramental-esque preparation
• The primary purpose is to make a baby, and if you’re doing anything non-abortifacent - condoms, natural family planning, etc. — it’s sin!
• Having sex while pregnant is a sin, so wait until you’re sure your wife isn’t pregnant before having sex again.
• If she is pregnant, having sex is a sin.
• Having sex after childbirth is a sin if the baby is still nursing
• Having sex during a fast or on a fasting day is a sin
• Having sex the night before taking Communion is a sin
• Having sex the same day as receiving Communion is a sin
• If you're past childbearing age, it's probably time to stop having sex
• Probably some more that I’m missing

So let’s grant that all of this is not just the personal opinions of guys who don’t have sex to begin with. If this is the case, virtually every time I’ve ever had sex with my wife has been a sin for some reason or another, both of my children are probably screwed up because we had sex while pregnant [and I should point out, I never had the slightest clue about any of this at that time], I’m probably screwed up because my parents had sex while I was in the womb, and we’re probably all going to hell anyway because obviously only monastics on Mt. Athos have any real chance at salvation.

Given all of this, one of two conclusions seems inevitable:

• Just don’t ever have sex with my wife at all because it’s virtually impossible for me to avoid sinning in the process, unless we’re specifically trying to have another baby - which in my dysfunctional family circumstances would be like trying to put out a fire by dumping napalm on it, so that’s not happening any time soon. The only safe way to avoid sin is to just not have sex at all, virtually ever.
• Just give up on trying to be holy or live Orthodox because it’s clearly impossible and beyond my abilities. If I’m just going to hell anyway, what’s the point of even trying?

Given that I already struggle with all the same contemporary high-tech enabled sexual temptations as everybody else around here, neither of these options seem to be particularly helpful in giving me a chance to overcome those sins. In fact, it seems likely that I'll only be more susceptible to that since even marital intimacy is almost never a legitimate sexual outlet.

As an aside, this all leads to the bizarre conclusion that the only married couples with fertility issues have any kind of opportunity for semi-consistent intimacy that may receive the Athonite seal of approval.

Granting again that all of this is actually true, I wish I’d had all this information as a young man before I met my wife, because I would likely have made very different life choices if I knew sexual intimacy was a mirage even within marriage. It all comes across as monastics talking out of both sides of their mouths - "Oh no, sex totally isn't intrinsically bad, both the family life and monastic life lead to salvation and are pleasing to God! Well, as long as you follow this long list of rules about sex and when you read the fine print, yeah, you should probably just go ahead and be a monk or nun." How am I not supposed to come to the conclusion that all this retroactively condemns my entire marriage before I became Orthodox?

I really don’t miss much of anything about my previous life as an evangelical otherwise, and though it’s true that contemporary evangelicalism is totally sex-obsessed and accepts many bad things uncritically, like hormonal contraceptives and sodomite activities within marriage... at least I could have normal intimacy with my wife without constantly worrying if it’s a sin and having to confess almost every time for some reason or another. Am I crazy for thinking that maybe a more realistic, viable approach is somewhere between these two extremes?

It’s a bit hilarious to me that Protestant apologists waste so much time making bad intellectual arguments against Orthodoxy and going on and on and on about icons when they could probably stop a lot of people, especially married couples, from converting by just making emotional appeals about how virtually all sex you’ve ever had with your spouse is sin, your kids are probably already warped as a result, and you’re expected to follow this long list of sex rules.

At least my wife is largely unaware of any of this, beyond the negative Orthodox attitude toward contraception. Since there’s not a ton of opportunity for intimacy to begin with when you have a toddler and a baby, she may not really notice if I just give up on sex altogether, but if she did know all of these lurid specifics, I have no doubt she’d just think Orthodoxy, and my involvement in it, is even more wacky than she already does. As usual it leaves me feeling totally alienated, trying to follow this extremely rigid way of life and not particularly eager or motivated to impose it on my otherwise disinterested family.

I would be cautious in accepting everything monastics say about martial relations. First of all, they have no personal experience with the matter. This is part of why the Church encourages priests to be married, so they can better relate to their flock and understand the demands of family life. Better to ask your parish priest about this stuff.

Secondly, monks live apart from the world. Some saints have even talked about how it is much harder for a man living in the city with a normal life and all the distractions that entails to be pious than for a monk in a secluded monastery. Three minutes of prayer by a working, married man in the city may be as difficult as three hours for a monk in a monastery. They have completely different standards from us.

FInally, some of what you listed directly contradicts other Orthodox writings I have seen. For example, the Russian Orthodox Church has an official essay mentioning that non-abortive contraception can be permitted.

Now don't get me wrong, I love our monastics and they play an extremely valuable role. But perhaps marital advice is better received from those who actually have to deal with marriage.

 

[Lawrence87]

This video really illustrates what I’d describe as my biggest hangup or reservation about the faith, four years into my Orthodox experience: namely, the musings of monastic elders being treated as infallible and raising the bar for behavior so ludicrously high that virtually nobody, certainly not myself, can live up to it.

I’m reminded of this quote by Christ in Matthew 23.4:

“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

First though, I’ll say that I completely agree that the sodomite sexual activities/those acts outside of intercourse are wrong. I never had any particular attraction to these anyway, and there’s a clear logic to it. Also, any sort of contraception that could cause an abortion or miscarriage is obviously also wrong. So I have no concerns on those points.

But beyond that, if I’m understanding this right, the gist (not limited to this video; incorporating stuff from other material like this and this) is something along these lines:

• Only have sex after sacramental-esque preparation
• The primary purpose is to make a baby, and if you’re doing anything non-abortifacent - condoms, natural family planning, etc. — it’s sin!
• Having sex while pregnant is a sin, so wait until you’re sure your wife isn’t pregnant before having sex again.
• If she is pregnant, having sex is a sin.
• Having sex after childbirth is a sin if the baby is still nursing
• Having sex during a fast or on a fasting day is a sin
• Having sex the night before taking Communion is a sin
• Having sex the same day as receiving Communion is a sin
• If you're past childbearing age, it's probably time to stop having sex
• Probably some more that I’m missing

So let’s grant that all of this is not just the personal opinions of guys who don’t have sex to begin with. If this is the case, virtually every time I’ve ever had sex with my wife has been a sin for some reason or another, both of my children are probably screwed up because we had sex while pregnant [and I should point out, I never had the slightest clue about any of this at that time], I’m probably screwed up because my parents had sex while I was in the womb, and we’re probably all going to hell anyway because obviously only monastics on Mt. Athos have any real chance at salvation.

Given all of this, one of two conclusions seems inevitable:

• Just don’t ever have sex with my wife at all because it’s virtually impossible for me to avoid sinning in the process, unless we’re specifically trying to have another baby - which in my dysfunctional family circumstances would be like trying to put out a fire by dumping napalm on it, so that’s not happening any time soon. The only safe way to avoid sin is to just not have sex at all, virtually ever.
• Just give up on trying to be holy or live Orthodox because it’s clearly impossible and beyond my abilities. If I’m just going to hell anyway, what’s the point of even trying?

Given that I already struggle with all the same contemporary high-tech enabled sexual temptations as everybody else around here, neither of these options seem to be particularly helpful in giving me a chance to overcome those sins. In fact, it seems likely that I'll only be more susceptible to that since even marital intimacy is almost never a legitimate sexual outlet.

As an aside, this all leads to the bizarre conclusion that the only married couples with fertility issues have any kind of opportunity for semi-consistent intimacy that may receive the Athonite seal of approval.

Granting again that all of this is actually true, I wish I’d had all this information as a young man before I met my wife, because I would likely have made very different life choices if I knew sexual intimacy was a mirage even within marriage. It all comes across as monastics talking out of both sides of their mouths - "Oh no, sex totally isn't intrinsically bad, both the family life and monastic life lead to salvation and are pleasing to God! Well, as long as you follow this long list of rules about sex and when you read the fine print, yeah, you should probably just go ahead and be a monk or nun." How am I not supposed to come to the conclusion that all this retroactively condemns my entire marriage before I became Orthodox?

I really don’t miss much of anything about my previous life as an evangelical otherwise, and though it’s true that contemporary evangelicalism is totally sex-obsessed and accepts many bad things uncritically, like hormonal contraceptives and sodomite activities within marriage... at least I could have normal intimacy with my wife without constantly worrying if it’s a sin and having to confess almost every time for some reason or another. Am I crazy for thinking that maybe a more realistic, viable approach is somewhere between these two extremes?

It’s a bit hilarious to me that Protestant apologists waste so much time making bad intellectual arguments against Orthodoxy and going on and on and on about icons when they could probably stop a lot of people, especially married couples, from converting by just making emotional appeals about how virtually all sex you’ve ever had with your spouse is sin, your kids are probably already warped as a result, and you’re expected to follow this long list of sex rules.

At least my wife is largely unaware of any of this, beyond the negative Orthodox attitude toward contraception. Since there’s not a ton of opportunity for intimacy to begin with when you have a toddler and a baby, she may not really notice if I just give up on sex altogether, but if she did know all of these lurid specifics, I have no doubt she’d just think Orthodoxy, and my involvement in it, is even more wacky than she already does. As usual it leaves me feeling totally alienated, trying to follow this extremely rigid way of life and not particularly eager or motivated to impose it on my otherwise disinterested family.

I would say that Orthodoxy sets a high bar that nobody ever meets.

A lot of the things you mention are the standard we should all be aware of and strive to attain an approximation of to the best of our ability. But most people are not able to do it. That doesn't mean you go to hell if you have sex with your wife in a moment of passion rather than "trying for a baby" but it does mean you should probably confess your weakness.

No one will be expected to meet a standard that they are incapable of. But that doesn't mean we should not be aware of the high standard to strive after. Similar applies to fasting, most of us aren't very good at it. Does that mean we should lower the standard? No! It just means we develop humility and awareness of our shortcomings.

Certain things, such as abortion should absolutely be avoided, and this isn't particularly difficult. Something less egregious like having sex with your wife on a fast day is something to take to confession and something to strive to avoid, but in our weakness it is the kind of thing that happens.

If we were to follow the exacting standard of behaviour as Christians, we would never talk about idle subjects, we wouldn't care for our appearance, we wouldn't watch idle entertainment, we wouldn't do much besides pray... This is a high standard, that nobody truly meets. But its the standard that exposes our shortcomings. Its not the checklist to get into heaven.

 

[Samseau]

This video really illustrates what I’d describe as my biggest hangup or reservation about the faith, four years into my Orthodox experience: namely, the musings of monastic elders being treated as infallible and raising the bar for behavior so ludicrously high that virtually nobody, certainly not myself, can live up to it.

I’m reminded of this quote by Christ in Matthew 23.4:

“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

First though, I’ll say that I completely agree that the sodomite sexual activities/those acts outside of intercourse are wrong. I never had any particular attraction to these anyway, and there’s a clear logic to it. Also, any sort of contraception that could cause an abortion or miscarriage is obviously also wrong. So I have no concerns on those points.

But beyond that, if I’m understanding this right, the gist (not limited to this video; incorporating stuff from other material like this and this) is something along these lines:

• Only have sex after sacramental-esque preparation
• The primary purpose is to make a baby, and if you’re doing anything non-abortifacent - condoms, natural family planning, etc. — it’s sin!
• Having sex while pregnant is a sin, so wait until you’re sure your wife isn’t pregnant before having sex again.
• If she is pregnant, having sex is a sin.
• Having sex after childbirth is a sin if the baby is still nursing
• Having sex during a fast or on a fasting day is a sin
• Having sex the night before taking Communion is a sin
• Having sex the same day as receiving Communion is a sin
• If you're past childbearing age, it's probably time to stop having sex
• Probably some more that I’m missing

So let’s grant that all of this is not just the personal opinions of guys who don’t have sex to begin with. If this is the case, virtually every time I’ve ever had sex with my wife has been a sin for some reason or another, both of my children are probably screwed up because we had sex while pregnant [and I should point out, I never had the slightest clue about any of this at that time], I’m probably screwed up because my parents had sex while I was in the womb, and we’re probably all going to hell anyway because obviously only monastics on Mt. Athos have any real chance at salvation.

Given all of this, one of two conclusions seems inevitable:

• Just don’t ever have sex with my wife at all because it’s virtually impossible for me to avoid sinning in the process, unless we’re specifically trying to have another baby - which in my dysfunctional family circumstances would be like trying to put out a fire by dumping napalm on it, so that’s not happening any time soon. The only safe way to avoid sin is to just not have sex at all, virtually ever.
• Just give up on trying to be holy or live Orthodox because it’s clearly impossible and beyond my abilities. If I’m just going to hell anyway, what’s the point of even trying?

Given that I already struggle with all the same contemporary high-tech enabled sexual temptations as everybody else around here, neither of these options seem to be particularly helpful in giving me a chance to overcome those sins. In fact, it seems likely that I'll only be more susceptible to that since even marital intimacy is almost never a legitimate sexual outlet.

As an aside, this all leads to the bizarre conclusion that the only married couples with fertility issues have any kind of opportunity for semi-consistent intimacy that may receive the Athonite seal of approval.

Granting again that all of this is actually true, I wish I’d had all this information as a young man before I met my wife, because I would likely have made very different life choices if I knew sexual intimacy was a mirage even within marriage. It all comes across as monastics talking out of both sides of their mouths - "Oh no, sex totally isn't intrinsically bad, both the family life and monastic life lead to salvation and are pleasing to God! Well, as long as you follow this long list of rules about sex and when you read the fine print, yeah, you should probably just go ahead and be a monk or nun." How am I not supposed to come to the conclusion that all this retroactively condemns my entire marriage before I became Orthodox?

I really don’t miss much of anything about my previous life as an evangelical otherwise, and though it’s true that contemporary evangelicalism is totally sex-obsessed and accepts many bad things uncritically, like hormonal contraceptives and sodomite activities within marriage... at least I could have normal intimacy with my wife without constantly worrying if it’s a sin and having to confess almost every time for some reason or another. Am I crazy for thinking that maybe a more realistic, viable approach is somewhere between these two extremes?

It’s a bit hilarious to me that Protestant apologists waste so much time making bad intellectual arguments against Orthodoxy and going on and on and on about icons when they could probably stop a lot of people, especially married couples, from converting by just making emotional appeals about how virtually all sex you’ve ever had with your spouse is sin, your kids are probably already warped as a result, and you’re expected to follow this long list of sex rules.

At least my wife is largely unaware of any of this, beyond the negative Orthodox attitude toward contraception. Since there’s not a ton of opportunity for intimacy to begin with when you have a toddler and a baby, she may not really notice if I just give up on sex altogether, but if she did know all of these lurid specifics, I have no doubt she’d just think Orthodoxy, and my involvement in it, is even more wacky than she already does. As usual it leaves me feeling totally alienated, trying to follow this extremely rigid way of life and not particularly eager or motivated to impose it on my otherwise disinterested family.

Have you asked your Priest or Bishop about these rules? Additionally, do you seriously think God is going to care about these rules as a requisite to enter His Kingdom compared to anything Christ talks about? Perhaps these things are sinful; that is why we forgive others, and give mercy to others, so that we may obtain mercy and be forgiven. It seems like these sins are small potatoes that are easily forgiven, if they are even sins, which is doubtful. Merely one Saint does not make for cannon.

Never heard of half of these rules in any Ancient literature... although to be fair, I can't imagine too many women wanting to have sex in the last months of pregnancy lol. They are already so miserable most of the time I think most men just avoid their wives at these stages.

 

[KomnenAl]

If you want to have sex with your pregnant wife, there is something seriously wrong with you.
Instead of questioning the Saints, you should contemplate your own falleness. Having sex with a woman while a baby is inside her (mere inches from own organ) is not far from sodomy. All these rules are common sense and made for our own benefit.
As usual, lukewarm lay Christians try to justify their passions.

 

[Lawrence87]

If you want to have sex with your pregnant wife, there is something seriously wrong with you.
Instead of questioning the Saints, you should contemplate your own falleness. Having sex with a woman while a baby is inside her (mere inches from own organ) is not far from sodomy. All these rules are common sense and made for our own benefit.
As usual, lukewarm lay Christians try to justify their passions.

I agree that the items mention follow from standard Christian teaching. However it is important, particularly for someone who feels burdened by these standards, to understand that its not a list of the requirements to get into heaven. Its more like; do what you can to meet these standards, and if through weakness you fail, go and confess it.

That is not to say someone should say "I find these standards too hard, I am going to ignore them." But it's also the case that despair and feeling like you are presented with an impossible list of standards that are condemning you is not the right understanding either. You should try to keep the standards, if you fail, take it to confession, and then go back to trying to keep the standards.

Probably it is a "talk to your priest" matter. Something is off though if you are feeling despairing and despondent about the standards of Orthodox conduct, and it is something best addressed by your spiritual father.

 

[Острог]

• Having sex while pregnant is a sin, so wait until you’re sure your wife isn’t pregnant before having sex again.
• If she is pregnant, having sex is a sin.
• Having sex after childbirth is a sin if the baby is still nursing
• Having sex during a fast or on a fasting day is a sin
• Having sex the night before taking Communion is a sin
• Having sex the same day as receiving Communion is a sin
• If you're past childbearing age, it's probably time to stop having sex

This is just common sense to me. If you can't handle these mild rules then you have a problem with lust just as big as pornography/masturbation. Work with your spiritual father.

 

[OrthoSerb]

This video really illustrates what I’d describe as my biggest hangup or reservation about the faith, four years into my Orthodox experience: namely, the musings of monastic elders being treated as infallible and raising the bar for behavior so ludicrously high that virtually nobody, certainly not myself, can live up to it.

I’m reminded of this quote by Christ in Matthew 23.4:

“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

First though, I’ll say that I completely agree that the sodomite sexual activities/those acts outside of intercourse are wrong. I never had any particular attraction to these anyway, and there’s a clear logic to it. Also, any sort of contraception that could cause an abortion or miscarriage is obviously also wrong. So I have no concerns on those points.

But beyond that, if I’m understanding this right, the gist (not limited to this video; incorporating stuff from other material like this and this) is something along these lines:

• Only have sex after sacramental-esque preparation
• The primary purpose is to make a baby, and if you’re doing anything non-abortifacent - condoms, natural family planning, etc. — it’s sin!
• Having sex while pregnant is a sin, so wait until you’re sure your wife isn’t pregnant before having sex again.
• If she is pregnant, having sex is a sin.
• Having sex after childbirth is a sin if the baby is still nursing
• Having sex during a fast or on a fasting day is a sin
• Having sex the night before taking Communion is a sin
• Having sex the same day as receiving Communion is a sin
• If you're past childbearing age, it's probably time to stop having sex
• Probably some more that I’m missing

So let’s grant that all of this is not just the personal opinions of guys who don’t have sex to begin with. If this is the case, virtually every time I’ve ever had sex with my wife has been a sin for some reason or another, both of my children are probably screwed up because we had sex while pregnant [and I should point out, I never had the slightest clue about any of this at that time], I’m probably screwed up because my parents had sex while I was in the womb, and we’re probably all going to hell anyway because obviously only monastics on Mt. Athos have any real chance at salvation.

Given all of this, one of two conclusions seems inevitable:

• Just don’t ever have sex with my wife at all because it’s virtually impossible for me to avoid sinning in the process, unless we’re specifically trying to have another baby - which in my dysfunctional family circumstances would be like trying to put out a fire by dumping napalm on it, so that’s not happening any time soon. The only safe way to avoid sin is to just not have sex at all, virtually ever.
• Just give up on trying to be holy or live Orthodox because it’s clearly impossible and beyond my abilities. If I’m just going to hell anyway, what’s the point of even trying?

Given that I already struggle with all the same contemporary high-tech enabled sexual temptations as everybody else around here, neither of these options seem to be particularly helpful in giving me a chance to overcome those sins. In fact, it seems likely that I'll only be more susceptible to that since even marital intimacy is almost never a legitimate sexual outlet.

As an aside, this all leads to the bizarre conclusion that the only married couples with fertility issues have any kind of opportunity for semi-consistent intimacy that may receive the Athonite seal of approval.

Granting again that all of this is actually true, I wish I’d had all this information as a young man before I met my wife, because I would likely have made very different life choices if I knew sexual intimacy was a mirage even within marriage. It all comes across as monastics talking out of both sides of their mouths - "Oh no, sex totally isn't intrinsically bad, both the family life and monastic life lead to salvation and are pleasing to God! Well, as long as you follow this long list of rules about sex and when you read the fine print, yeah, you should probably just go ahead and be a monk or nun." How am I not supposed to come to the conclusion that all this retroactively condemns my entire marriage before I became Orthodox?

I really don’t miss much of anything about my previous life as an evangelical otherwise, and though it’s true that contemporary evangelicalism is totally sex-obsessed and accepts many bad things uncritically, like hormonal contraceptives and sodomite activities within marriage... at least I could have normal intimacy with my wife without constantly worrying if it’s a sin and having to confess almost every time for some reason or another. Am I crazy for thinking that maybe a more realistic, viable approach is somewhere between these two extremes?

It’s a bit hilarious to me that Protestant apologists waste so much time making bad intellectual arguments against Orthodoxy and going on and on and on about icons when they could probably stop a lot of people, especially married couples, from converting by just making emotional appeals about how virtually all sex you’ve ever had with your spouse is sin, your kids are probably already warped as a result, and you’re expected to follow this long list of sex rules.

At least my wife is largely unaware of any of this, beyond the negative Orthodox attitude toward contraception. Since there’s not a ton of opportunity for intimacy to begin with when you have a toddler and a baby, she may not really notice if I just give up on sex altogether, but if she did know all of these lurid specifics, I have no doubt she’d just think Orthodoxy, and my involvement in it, is even more wacky than she already does. As usual it leaves me feeling totally alienated, trying to follow this extremely rigid way of life and not particularly eager or motivated to impose it on my otherwise disinterested family.

I'm sensing a lot of frustration from your recent posts - fasting is going in the wrong direction, living an Orthodox life is miserable, specific sexual standards are ridiculous, you are completely isolated socially and everyone thinks you're a lunatic etc. Forum members responding line by line with their takes on your list of gripes on sexual ethics or fasting doesn't really address the core issue. Spiritual warfare 101 is to avoid negative thoughts, not to focus on misery, failure and impossible standards. Don't focus on topics which make you despair and certainly don't give them such significance that you feel compelled to write essays on them for other people to read, especially during a fasting period. You sound like you're inside your own head, falling into despondency and then attempting to relieve those feelings by justifying to others why your frame of mind is infact caused by a system which is set up to make you fail. Your first task is to get on top of those thoughts and passions by not irrigating the ground on which they grow and instead focussing your thoughts and energies on those things which provide you with spiritual oxygen. By that I don't mean to say you shouldn't raise your frustrations here on whatever life challenges you are encountering. Camaraderie and advice may be somewhat helpful and comforting on some level. However framing things as "look at these ridiculous rules which totally explain my misery" is not that. No one here compelled you to watch content that you don't agree with, measure yourself by it or to write an essay on it. If such content is a stumbling block for you then don't read or watch it, read the Saints or Elders you are drawn to and simply follow the guidance of your Confessor. A number of elements of your life make your current cross hard to bear, whether that's the fact that you are the only Orthodox person in your family, or that you have young children and are presumably juggling them with work commitments. Don't be surprised by the fact you sometimes find yourself struggling or outside of your comfort zone. That can be to your benefit. I don't doubt that you will find God's mercy if you persevere without grumbling or engaging with negative thoughts. And you'll probably find it more easily than those of us in more comfortable positions.