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Marriage / Established Relationships

There is a danger in taking this "higher calling" to the extreme, as we saw in the USA with the Shaker (Shaking Quakers) movement, which is basically extinct at this point. They lived communal lives, completely celibate, and focused on spiritual and Biblical living. They only grew their numbers through converts, as they couldn't have children. They tried adoption in their later years, but that became blocked by the government.
Yes, this is the rub for the argument against a type of materialism and "of this world" stuff, since you can clearly argue that all children are vanity, since we're all dead in the long run. The problem is that that is just a hard circle to square when it's such an obvious point of life and healthy life, at that. The sex thing comes into this continuum also when you get humans that historically had sex and marriage at teenage years now "waiting" well beyond their 20s and constantly bombarded by distractions and images, but a society that won't get young women together in marriage for younger, or any age, men, to be honest.

I think it's clear, given the biblical narrative and what Christian saints like St. John Chrysostom, among others, had to say about men and women and their roles in society, this current modern world is nothing short of clown world. Most of modern Christian adaptation is far more influenced by the modern days of "advanced" society, egalitarianism and economic benefits/comfort than anyone really wants to admit, even us Orthodox.

If you really look at what Orthodox people in the west, who aren't originally from another country and have an insulated subculture (where they probably largely arrange their own to get married), say in terms of telling their people about the proper roles of men and women, you'll find silence far more often than not. And you don't even need to really point this out, since all the people are sending their daughters off to college, wasting away in the workforce, not getting married, etc. I'm not necessarily blaming anyone but I am stating that the Orthodox [daily] life is not in any way traditional any longer, in the west - from a practical point of view it's a joke. It just is ignored because we still have boomers and older who still have some semblance of this, but are mostly disinterested in tackling the subject, since it would provoke too many emotional, nonsensical outburst from the society at large, or some church attendees.
 

However, divorce on the grounds of "irreconcilable differences" is generally not admissible in marriages between Orthodox Christians.

Why not? I believe it has something to do with the Church's rejection of the underlying secular assumption behind divorce due to "irreconcilable differences." Our culture tends to think of a successful marriage as one in which husband and wife are actually twin souls in different biological clothing. Your "one true love" is that special person who matches you perfectly, who completes you, fulfills you, perfects you, is actually your "other half" and so on.

The Christian understanding of marriage takes a very different view. In chapter five of his Epistle to the Ephesians, St. Paul uses a marital image to speak of the mystery of the Incarnation. The wife's feminine role represents the human nature of Christ, which continues to manifest itself in the Church. (Ephesians 5:22-23) The husband's masculine role, on the other hand, represents the divine nature of Christ the Son and Word of God, who is the head of the Church through the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 5:25-26) The union of the two genders in one relationship speaks of the one Person of Christ in whom two natures are united. And this union, St. Paul says, is a "great mystery" (Ephesians 5:32) precisely because those natures—the divine and the human—are so completely exclusive and irreconcilable!
 
Not all marriages end in divorce... but all divorces begin with marriage

full
 
Continued from here:


...There are a lot of brow beaten, henpecked Christian husbands whose wives treat them this way, even though the wives actually desire to be good loving wives out of devotion to God. They just can't tolerate their husband's failure to act like a man in the way woman are hardwired to want. These men need the red pill.

Truth This Is True GIF by Ford


^ This is absolutely critical for men to know.

Maintaining Respect in Relationships - background

I am happily married now with a devoted, nurturing wife, but if I had gotten hitched in an earlier phase of my life without experience and red pill knowledge of women, seduction, relationships, frame, red/green flags, mental health etc... I may have been in for one long and hard ride. I've made many, many mistakes in the past, as I wasn't afraid to try and fail, however I'm far more confident now about mapping a realistic blue print for a satisfying relationship, especially between a conservative / Christian man and woman. That said, many of these principles apply to committed relationships regardless of philosophical or religious orientation.

The State of the Whipped

It is hard to get data on this but I'd say at least 80% of married guys in the modern West live completely under the thumb of their wives, and that only gets worse once kids are born - then I'd say over 95% get worn down into full submission. With kids, men will often feel like their needs come last, even if their wife respects them as a leader.

Women are masters at (largely subconscious) emotional blackmail and have fewer external and internal constraints on their emotional state. This means men have to be educated on handling emotional 'sh*t tests', calm assertion, self-control, etc. Women can sulk and whine and the man will not get repulsed. In fact he will often feel he needs to step in and save her (cue the annoyed nods from women who want emotional validation and not practical solutions to their often fixable problems). Contrast that with men who sulk, whine and cannot control their emotions... their relationships will not end well.

The Standard Process

A typical relationship process often looks like this, with 5 blended stages:

1. Man seeks woman -> woman fully in control.
2. Woman seeks commitment -> man mostly in control.
3. Man commits informally -> woman mostly in control again.
4. Man proposes, gets married, thus commits formally -> woman takes control.
5. Man makes irreversible commitment through kids -> woman assumes full and ongoing control.

Things don't always happen like this but I think it is a broadly accurate framework of a common process.

Emotional Damage and Control

The below skit by so-called "comedian" Ali Wong *groan* isn't funny, rather, it shows how the wife wearing the pants in marriage is the accepted norm in the mainstream.



^ if the link doesn't work for you, at around the 2 minute mark the crowd of women cheer wildly when the speaker bluntly praises women's emotional manipulation and abuse of their husbands to make their own man's life hell in order to satisfy their individual desires. It is unreal. Likewise, this is the norm now:



Unlike in more rationale times:



What does a 'Trad' woman demand and give? Does it change?

It's also important to acknowledge that many men have naive delusions about what a traditional woman will give and recieve. At the early stages she may cook and clean to please you. But do you know how much she will demand once you fully commit? 🤔

First, many women expect their husbands to literally do anything the wife asks them to do, because that is their duty. It's best to be realistic about the pros and cons of younger vs older women, independent vs dependent women, etc. There are always trade-offs.

Second, once a woman knows the man is committed, and won't or can't leave, she may revert to her baseline level of low-effort homeostasis.

images


Choose Carefully

There are traditional women out there who actively seek to support their husband as per biblical docrine (e.g. Ephesians 5:22–33) and/or who have a highly feminine, pleasant and agreeable nature.

The personality, mindset and faith of your wife will make a monumental difference to your quality of life. I cannot state this clearly enough: it's better to be single forever than to select a wife who will not respect you. This is especially relevant in 2024 and beyond.

Setting the Frame as a Christian

That said, it doesn't matter if you and your wife are devoted to God, it is possible that you will become whipped over time unless you take a conscious decision, day after day, to take responsibility, be the leader, control your emotions, have a mission, etc. This is primarily due to the woman's biological imperative and is exacerbated by external influences such as social media, her friends, colleagues, and the broader culture.

I think it is a little naive to believe the principles of 'frame' don't apply because your current or future wife is or will be a traditional Christian woman. She is still a woman. In my direct observation of Catholic and Protestant circles -- which do vary hugely across denominations, countries etc -- there is little to no special privilege of reducing the need for responsibility and leadership that is granted to a man because he married a woman who believes in God.

Moreover, there are countless good-hearted Christian men of faith who are utterly naive about the nature of women and who think being nice and accommodating at all times is the righteous way to go.

This "nice guy" approach is doomed to fail given enough time, and in such cases a tutorial on frame and its importance can be a helpful nudge in the stronger direction.

Understanding Frame

This video by Orion Taraban explain the concept of 'frame' in more detail (this is a second video by Orion, created after the one posted earlier in the 'reaction to game' thread)



The Slow Drip of Melting Authority

Further, relationship frames are not 'set and forget'. You must continually maintain your leadership on a daily basis. There are no days off. This can feel like a huge burden to some men, and it gets many times harder with children. Still, it's essential, unless you don't mind playing second fiddle for the rest of your life, a guaranteed way to drain your energy, testosterone and self esteem.

Getting beaten down emotionally usually happens not by one swift blow, but by 1000 cuts. Thus being vigilant and not getting lazy is essential:



^ This video is not aimed at married Christians and I disagree with some aspects of this video such as 'spinning plates', however the fundamental concepts are useful for any man to know.

Four Key Steps

Thus in any longterm relationship the man, for the sake of his sanity, health, testosterone etc, would likely benefit from significant investment and consideration of all 4 of the following.

1. Building yourself up in advance, I.e. massive self development before meeting the woman, to become husband material.
2. Very careful screening and selection in the woman.
3. Setting expectations, boundaries etc from Day one.
4. Vigilant discipline and maintenance of your leadership.

Ideally by the time you are years deep into the relationship most of these behaviours are second nature and you have ascended through the four stages of competence:

PTE


Disclaimers: Maintaining Balance and Accepting Inevitable Risk

First, it is possible to become overly sensitive to the perception of 'frame' and start keeping track of who did what in the relationship. This isn't fun. When power dynamics are the primary lens through which the relationship is viewed, meaningful husband duties tend to feel like chores and resentment builds.

There is also a risk of alienating one's spouse when control is made the governing principle underlying the relationship dynamics. So, I have found it useful to grant my wife authority over certain domains at home and with children, as this gives her a feeling of autonomy and frees up my time to work on my career, health etc, which are critical for the functioning of not just me but the whole family. As part of this separation of duties, I directly discussed the utility of role specialisation in marriage, which helped her understand that 50/50 across all tasks is inefficient and in many cases, simply impossible.

Second, nothing is promised. All the planning, framing etc can go out the window because women and people change. Also external environments can change. When you have kids your world will change, and your relationship. And thus risk is inevitable. Yet fortune favours the brave.

Conclusion

By putting in the hard yards up front in (a) building up your own internal and external resources prior to meeting wifey (b) screening very, very hard, and (c) setting expectations from day one, you are doing your future self a huge, huge favour. Once the ring gets on the finger, and then the kids come, then the real work starts. Yet this is when most men get complacent and stop trying. But... you are not like most men, are you? 😉

I hope you got some value from this. Feedback welcome as always.
 
Last edited:
Continued from here:




Truth This Is True GIF by Ford


^ This is absolutely critical for men to know.

Maintaining Respect in Relationships - background

I am happily married now with a devoted, nurturing wife, but if I had gotten hitched in an earlier phase of my life without experience and red pill knowledge of women, seduction, relationships, frame, red/green flags, mental health etc... I may have been in for one long and hard ride. I've made many, many mistakes in the past, as I wasn't afraid to try and fail, however I'm far more confident now about mapping a realistic blue print for a satisfying relationship, especially between a conservative / Christian man and woman. That said, many of these principles apply to committed relationships regardless of philosophical or religious orientation.

The State of the Whipped

It is hard to get data on this but I'd say at least 80% of married guys in the modern West live completely under the thumb of their wives, and that only gets worse once kids are born - then I'd say over 95% get worn down into full submission. With kids, men will often feel like their needs come last, even if their wife respects them as a leader.

Women are masters at (largely subconscious) emotional blackmail and have fewer external and internal constraints on their emotional state. This means men have to be educated on handling emotional 'sh*t tests', calm assertion, self-control, etc. Women can sulk and whine and the man will not get repulsed. In fact he will often feel he needs to step in and save her (cue the annoyed nods from women who want emotional validation and not practical solutions to their often fixable problems). Contrast that with men who sulk, whine and cannot control their emotions... their relationships will not end well.

The Standard Process

A typical relationship process often looks like this, with 5 blended stages:

1. Man seeks woman -> woman fully in control.
2. Woman seeks commitment -> man mostly in control.
3. Man commits informally -> woman mostly in control again.
4. Man proposes, gets married, thus commits formally -> woman takes control.
5. Man makes irreversible commitment through kids -> woman assumes full and ongoing control.

Things don't always happen like this but I think it is a broadly accurate framework of a common process.

Emotional Damage and Control

The below skit by so-called "comedian" Ali Wong *groan* isn't funny, rather, it shows how the wife wearing the pants in marriage is the accepted norm in the mainstream.



^ if the link doesn't work for you, at around the 2 minute mark the crowd of women cheer wildly when the speaker bluntly praises women's emotional manipulation and abuse of their husbands to make their own man's life hell in order to satisfy their individual desires. It is unreal. Likewise, this is the norm now:



Unlike in more rationale times:



What does a 'Trad' woman demand and give? Does it change?

It's also important to acknowledge that many men have naive delusions about what a traditional woman will give and recieve. At the early stages she may cook and clean to please you. But do you know how much she will demand once you fully commit? 🤔

First, many women expect their husbands to literally do anything the wife asks them to do, because that is their duty. It's best to be realistic about the pros and cons of younger vs older women, independent vs dependent women, etc. There are always trade-offs.

Second, once a woman knows the man is committed, and won't or can't leave, she may revert to her baseline level of low-effort homeostasis.

images


Choose Carefully

There are traditional women out there who actively seek to support their husband as per biblical docrine (e.g. Ephesians 5:22–33) and/or who have a highly feminine, pleasant and agreeable nature.

The personality, mindset and faith of your wife will make a monumental difference to your quality of life. I cannot state this clearly enough: it's better to be single forever than to select a wife who will not respect you. This is especially relevant in 2024 and beyond.

Setting the Frame as a Christian

That said, it doesn't matter if you and your wife are devoted to God, it is possible that you will become whipped over time unless you take a conscious decision, day after day, to take responsibility, be the leader, control your emotions, have a mission, etc. This is primarily due to the woman's biological imperative and is exacerbated by external influences such as social media, her friends, colleagues, and the broader culture.

I think it is a little naive to believe the principles of 'frame' don't apply because your current or future wife is or will be a traditional Christian woman. She is still a woman. In my direct observation of Catholic and Protestant circles -- which do vary hugely across denominations, countries etc -- there is little to no special privilege of reducing the need for responsibility and leadership that is granted to a man because he married a woman who believes in God.

Moreover, there are countless good-hearted Christian men of faith who are utterly naive about the nature of women and who think being nice and accommodating at all times is the righteous way to go.

This "nice guy" approach is doomed to fail given enough time, and in such cases a tutorial on frame and its importance can be a helpful nudge in the stronger direction.

Understanding Frame

This video by Orion Taraban explain the concept of 'frame' in more detail (this is a second video by Orion, created after the one posted earlier in the 'reaction to game' thread)



The Slow Drip of Melting Authority

Further, relationship frames are not 'set and forget'. You must continually maintain your leadership on a daily basis. There are no days off. This can feel like a huge burden to some men, and it gets many times harder with children. Still, it's essential, unless you don't mind playing second fiddle for the rest of your life, a guaranteed way to drain your energy, testosterone and self esteem.

Getting beaten down emotionally usually happens not by one swift blow, but by 1000 cuts. Thus being vigilant and not getting lazy is essential:



^ This video is not aimed at married Christians and I disagree with some aspects of this video such as 'spinning plates', however the fundamental concepts are useful for any man to know.

Four Key Steps

Thus in any longterm relationship the man, for the sake of his sanity, health, testosterone etc, would likely benefit from significant investment and consideration of all 4 of the following.

1. Building yourself up in advance, I.e. massive self development before meeting the woman, to become husband material.
2. Very careful screening and selection in the woman.
3. Setting expectations, boundaries etc from Day one.
4. Vigilant discipline and maintenance of your leadership.

Ideally by the time you are years deep into the relationship most of these behaviours are second nature and you have ascended through the four stages of competence:

PTE


Disclaimers: Maintaining Balance and Accepting Inevitable Risk

First, it is possible to become overly sensitive to the perception of 'frame' and start keeping track of who did what in the relationship. This isn't fun. When power dynamics are the primary lens through which the relationship is viewed, meaningful husband duties tend to feel like chores and resentment builds.

There is also a risk of alienating one's spouse when control is made the governing principle underlying the relationship dynamics. So, I have found it useful to grant my wife authority over certain domains at home and with children, as this gives her a feeling of autonomy and frees up my time to work on my career, health etc, which are critical for the functioning of not just me but the whole family. As part of this separation of duties, I directly discussed the utility of role specialisation in marriage, which helped her understand that 50/50 across all tasks is inefficient and in many cases, simply impossible.

Second, nothing is promised. All the planning, framing etc can go out the window because women and people change. Also external environments can change. When you have kids your world will change, and your relationship. And thus risk is inevitable. Yet fortune favours the brave.

Conclusion

By putting in the hard yards up front in (a) building up your own internal and external resources prior to meeting wifey (b) screening very, very hard, and (c) setting expectations from day one, you are doing your future self a huge, huge favour. Once the ring gets on the finger, and then the kids come, then the real work starts. Yet this is when most men get complacent and stop trying. But... you are not like most men, are you? 😉

I hope you got some value from this. Feedback welcome as always.

Incredible post! A tour de force!
 
@Steady Hands Just watched the videos on frame that you posted in the post on this thread and also the one on another thread. Great content. It's something I would show to friends if I wanted to introduce friends to the concept of frame but without having to also mention PUA. As you know, PUA has been vilified in the media over the last 10+ years by the MSM so a lot of normies will see both PUA and anything associated with it as sexist, anti-women, and other various buzzwords. It's such an important idea for both romantic relationships but also any other sort of interpersonal relationship that I think it's important to introduce to men even if they don't want to start wearing fuzzy hats and using canned lines.
 
I think @Steady Hands points, or points like them, are reasons why marriage at younger ages (in general) are so much better. You can just grow more easily into the relationship and you have the best times, and don't feel you're missing out on anything if you actually really like the person. I'm comparing that to when you are older and if you don't get a young wife, neither you nor she are going to have the energy. You will also be more ambivalent because you got a used up version of her former self - which doesn't matter if you're just looking for a companion and no kids - but does if you want a family. As I get older, the less nonsense I want to deal with. That makes a really demanding relationship a hard sell.

Just being honest.
 
@Wutang - I'm glad to hear you got some value from these resources. You also make a great point about the importance of being able to share insightful content that is free from negative associations. 🙂

@Droughtmeat - Likewise I am happy you got some useful ideas from this. I appreciate your feedback on both the content and the style of presentation. This can help guide the creation of more engaging posts in the future. 👍

@Blade Runner - I definitely agree with your points. I didn't touch on the matter of age in detail, or the conditional factor of children, both of which are key factors to consider in understanding present and future relationships dynamics. Thanks for sharing. 💡
 


Interview with a surprisingly honest woman relationship psychologist. None of it will be news to men who have been around awhile but there’s gems of truth sprinkled in the interview from beginning to end.

You guys who are looking to get married should pay attention to what she says about attraction and manipulation from the female perspective. I get the sense that there are a lot of men here who think being godly and “good” entitles you to a happy marriage with a submissive wife. You had better not confuse being good with being weak if you intend to keep your wife attracted to you.
 
For those older gents with wives going through the menopause and pré menopause, talk to me about your experiences of this.

I don't even recognise who my wife is anymore. It's like aliens took her away and replaced her with an angry, frumpy, sexless schizophrénic. It sure isn't the girl I fell in love with and it's been going on for years now.

I don't know what I did to deserve this but I'd like to know I'm not alone. I also need to know if this is something that maybe passes or that's just life kicking you in the balls.
 
For those older gents with wives going through the menopause and pré menopause, talk to me about your experiences of this.

I don't even recognise who my wife is anymore. It's like aliens took her away and replaced her with an angry, frumpy, sexless schizophrénic. It sure isn't the girl I fell in love with and it's been going on for years now.

I don't know what I did to deserve this but I'd like to know I'm not alone. I also need to know if this is something that maybe passes or that's just life kicking you in the balls.
It's very rough. There aren't any easy answers. The one consolation is that they do tend to calm down and be more normal eventually after menopause is complete. Unfortunately, from the first irregularity in periods to the final point after periods have ended can be 7 years or longer.

This is a situation where men are really called to bear their crosses.
 
It's very rough. There aren't any easy answers. The one consolation is that they do tend to calm down and be more normal eventually after menopause is complete. Unfortunately, from the first irregularity in periods to the final point after periods have ended can be 7 years or longer.

This is a situation where men are really called to bear their crosses.
Perfectly summed up. If it really starts to eat away at you, hit the golf course or arrange to have a beer with an old friend (or both!)
 
Perfectly summed up. If it really starts to eat away at you, hit the golf course or arrange to have a beer with an old friend (or both!)
Yes, I've been basically trying to get out of the house more, going on my own to live sports, riding my bike, going out with mates. Anything really. Trying to be as stoic as I can at home.

No-one tells you about this.
 
Every married man needs to maintain his network of MALE friends and spend regular time doing stuff together. Don't let your wife nag you into giving that male network up. It's just a tactic to cut you off from male support. Another point, especially for single men: women are not your friends and will ultimately defer to the sisterhood, before siding with you. Exceptions exist, but are very rare. Women are there to start families with and raise the children. They are not there to be your buddy or go to sportsball events with you. That's why men have male friends. Muslims inherently know this, as do the upper-crusty high society types, with their mens-only clubs, mens-only cafes, etc. No-girls-allowed treehouses are ingrained in the male psyche, and should be brought back, including male-only gyms.
 
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