You have to make them respect you. Their natural inclination is not to do so. If you're too willing to please them, they see that as a weakness, not worthy of their respect.
Agreed. Some wise posts in this thread. I'm glad we are having a realistic discussion about relationships.
What is "game" exactly?
The meaning of game seems to be up for debate and there is a
lack of consensus about its definition and scope. I define it as something along the lines of "the internal intergration and external embodiment of attitudes, traits and behaviours that facilitate attraction, comfort, connection and ultimately the development of seduction, sex, bonding and the maintenance of relationships including marriage".
I know that "relationship game" doesn't seem like a common term but it certainly takes a lot of effort to become husband material, find a wife, attract her, build a deep connection, develop the relationship, get married, have kids, etc. If all this monumental effort isn't worth a second thought, and should just come "naturally" without conscious consideration, then I guess this thread won't be of much interest.
The denial or rejection of game
In some online circles, "game" or "PUA" represent trigger words that can unleash a round of comments from so-called Naturals along the lines of "PUAs are losers and
try too hard, I just do my own thing, no tactics needed". Another, more pious claim is that "all calculated moves are bad,
manipulation is evil, if you get a woman with game she is not pure of heart" etc.
Both responses typically do not make specific claims about what "game" is and is not, and appear to be a form of denial that game works, that you have direct control over your relationships, or that women can be understood and are not a mysterious species.
The common claim "Women just like tall guys with good pics on tinder so I shouldn't bother trying anything" is a fatalistic belief that
leads men to MGTOW. Alternatively, righteous, vague statements such as "I will not chase a woman, I will focus on being a man of God first" may underscore a truly pure intention, and I wholeheartedly respect this. Unfortunately this may also reflect a wholly passive approach that won't work for most men.
Yes, it is important to have a higher calling, to be involved in your community, to have a career, hobbies, friends, etc. That's not disputed at all. But this hands-off, non-proactive approach will again lead many guys to end up
prematurely in monk mode.
Such denialism serves few people except those who don't want to believe that you can make huge progress in your life and your relationships through an understanding of male-female dynamics and conscious repetition of proven approaches,
and, that it can be done ethically.
For instance, the idea that 'being non-needy is attractive' is a
non-negotiable tenant of any relationship, especially at the start. For many guys this does not come naturally so they will need to take conscious steps to manage their inner desires and outer perception and reputation. Robotic interactions and intellectual over-analysis are traps many young guys can get stuck in, sure, but for some guys this may be a necessary step towards mastery. Ultimately men need to consciously create value as a man of worth to themselves, others and God.
Understanding Frame
One more example: By simply knowing about the concept of frame, a guy can put himself ahead of the pack. This vid by Orion Taraban explains the concept in more detail:
^ By the way, I
highly recommend his channel. When it comes to women, relationships and self-development, he is likely to be one the most insightful and fully red-pilled Psychologists on youtube today.
Is game good, evil, neither or both?
At its worst, game seems to mean lying to sleep with women and then discarding them. Likewise, tactics such as push/pull, negging, etc can be used to take down a hot girls ego a notch, yet may be inappropriate for a post-church group lunch.
The obsessive use of social media to curate a persona of a high value man is now the standard way to do modern dating, once the online swiping is done. Frankly, I dispise this online rat race and find it to be utterly empty, feminine, and sad. But, to be realistic, it is effective in demonstrating social proof to the modern female or dare I say, almost any female. "Wait!" An objector may say, "a trad woman would not respond to a profile of a travelling playboy". True, but almost every woman on earth is still attracted to a man of authority, fame, or high social status. Even young generally clueless men at church groups know that the bible study leader has more status and is thus more attractive.
At its best, game seems to mean growing into the best version of yourself, thus becoming husband material, and staying that way. To what extent is it robotic or immoral to improve your fashion, body language, physical strength, social status, voice tone, story telling, humour, emotional control, wealth, career, manly skills, etc? Perhaps it depends on the man's underlying motivations and how these tools or expressions are used. Such tools or methods can be used for good
OR evil. So, I don't see the value in labelling 'game' as inherently sinful, especially since it tends to
hide or push away important discussions about practical courtship steps and development of the self in the context of relationships.
Discussion - Jay Dyer
Here's a time-stamped clip of Jay Dyer and D.P Harry discussing a similar topic:
Game in Relationships
This thread has evolved from a discussion about pickup tactics and courtship to a discussion about maintaining frame and respect in relationships and marriage.
With that in mind I encourage posters with experience in relationships and marriage to post about their reflections in the relationship/marriage thread.
Men without much experience are certainly welcome to join as always, I would just ask them to be honest about their real-life expertise and the underlying basis for their opinions, I.e., if their opinions are based on theory, personal experience, watching others, etc.
Last, I encourage posters seeking to develop their existing relationships to share their experiences and thoughts as well. The line between 'courting' and 'committed' can be blurred, and these times make for a great opportunity to discuss some very interesting relationship dynamics and questions e.g., "should I propose to her?!" And so on.
I'll continue with some further reflections in the below thread, regarding
The development and maintenance of respect in relationships:
