Jay Dyer Thread

There is nothing in the context that precludes the reading that Peter is making a statement about humanity and not merely the Church he is writing to. So it falls to interpretation. Which is why Sola Scriptura fails and we need the Church and Holy Tradition to guide us to correct interpretation.
But the fact that not all the Church Fathers are in agreement over this shows why Holy Tradition fails, and why we should allow the Bible to be it's own interpreter. It's all there in the context.

God does not desire that they should perish, but perish they will if they reject Him.
So God is unwilling but He's willing. Incoherent.
How about God is willing for the heathen to perish but He is unwilling for the Church to perish?
 
The Lord plants the field knowing some of us will fail, because he knows how some of us will misuse our free will. Some will separate ourselves from Him, and be damned on Judgement Day as a result.

In all of this, the Lord's intentions are pure. He is all knowing, and yet we have total free will.
Amen, see, welcome to Reformed theology!
 
But the fact that not all the Church Fathers are in agreement over this shows why Holy Tradition fails, and why we should allow the Bible to be it's own interpreter. It's all there in the context.

I just demonstrated to you that it's not "all there" in the context because either of our readings can be justified in the context. Furthermore my reading actually stands better than yours when cross-referenced with 1 Timothy. And of course I could have been bringing in innumerable Church Fathers to support my readings this whole time but I know you don't ascribe authority to them so there is not any point to that road.

So God is unwilling but He's willing. Incoherent.
How about God is willing for the heathen to perish but He is unwilling for the Church to perish?

I just explained to you how 'willing' has two different meanings.

Amen, see, welcome to Reformed theology!

Amen to "total free will"?
 
I just demonstrated to you that it's not "all there" in the context because either of our readings can be justified in the context.
Your reading of verse 9 would make it contradict with verse 7. Verse 9 comes after verse 7, and should be read in that context.

Furthermore my reading actually stands better than yours when cross-referenced with 1 Timothy.
OK, but then I can cross reference to the Gospel of John where Jesus says that He does not pray for the world, but for those whom the Father gave Him. Or that He dies for the sheep, and not all are His sheep.

And of course I could have been bringing in innumerable Church Fathers to support my readings this whole time but I know you don't ascribe authority to them so there is not any point to that road.
And of course that goes both ways as well, as I can bring in Church Fathers who recognized that God set His saving grace on the Church in particular.

I just explained to you how 'willing' has two different meanings.
If you die in your sin, will God sentence you to Hell, yes or no?

Amen to "total free will"?
More so to the first part of his statement, that God has a purpose in creating us, even when He recognizes that we will misuse our will and warrant Hell as a result. Obviously, I don't grant that the will is free from the stain and influence of sin.
 
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Jay Dyer's latest livestream has some interesting discussions on PSA

These should link directly to the timestamp:

Here he talks about PSA in relation to Isa 53;10 'it pleased the Lord to crush him'

He mentions it's not so much about a judicial thing but rather simply talking about death : the separation of body and soul. "The crushing is the Son's willful acceptance of death". But it's not spiritual death (as some reformers imagine). Christ is not being put in damnation or having something happen to him that severs him from the Father (splitting the Trinity)
3:04:43



Another comment on PSA stressing that Christs sufferings were for our healing. There are no payments offered to the Father. God doesn't need anything. Rather the offering of humanity to the Father is for our healing. It's a subtle shift in perspective.
3:32:24



One last one on how the origin of PSA is from presuppositions made by the RC. The mindset that necessitated the treasory of merits essentially led to PSA. Protestants responded with a critique of indulgences but couldn't break the paradigm:
1:53:17
 
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There are no payments offered to the Father. God doesn't need anything. Rather the offering of humanity to the Father is for our healing. It's a subtle shift in perspective.
Hebrews 9:28: so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

If by a "subtle shift in perspective" you mean Dyer is denying the Gospel, then yeah.
 
Hebrews 9:28: so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

If by a "subtle shift in perspective" you mean Dyer is denying the Gospel, then yeah.

I can read verses like that Hebrews verse in a PSA Protestant minded context and I can also read it in an Orthodox context. Sometimes both conceptions seem close. That's what I meant by subtle shift in perspective.
 
I can read verses like that Hebrews verse in a PSA Protestant minded context and I can also read it in an Orthodox context. Sometimes both conceptions seem close. That's what I meant by subtle shift in perspective.
The "Protestant vs Orthodox" dialectic is what's causing many here to miss the Biblical truth that Christ actually bore our sins and died in our place to save us from condemnation.

Nothing about offering up universal human nature. Nothing about both Christians and heathens going into the Lake of Fire. None of that.

Wolves like Dyer make a name for themselves by peddling false dialectics. I'm amazed the Orthodox Church let's him get away with it, or I wonder if he teaches with any ecclesial sanction at all.
 
His dialectics are mostly on point, however.
I'm telling you, if you look into his sources the picture you get will be very different. The two that I took the time to check him on was the Canon of Scripture and PSA. When he bluffs his way through these topics, his discord club is not so much there for whether the claims are historical or not, but they are more there for the entertainment.

Where I do think he gives a good presentation is in presuppositional apologetics against athiests and secularists. Obviously, that was something he picked up at Bahnsen University. So the content is not all bad.

People on our side of things usually point out that he never names the Jew. It should be noted that his wife is a Jew who was giving tarot readings not that long ago. But I also don't blame him not wanting to nuke his own youtube channel.
 
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He's probably the one guy that is doing the most to expose non-academic people to presuppositonal apologetics and the transcendental argument for God's existence right now. This exposure is from both the debates he conducts personally and also because a lot of the Orthod-bros that do debates typically use the same playbook he uses
 
I'm amazed the Orthodox Church let's him get away with it, or I wonder if he teaches with any ecclesial sanction at all.

I'm telling you, if you look into his sources the picture you get will be very different. The two that I took the time to check him on was the Canon of Scripture and PSA.

Isn't the guy he's talking to when they are discussing the RC and PSA an Orthodox priest? ( Fr. Deacon Ananias). He said that it was his topic of study for his dissertation.
 
People on our side of things usually point out that he never names the Jew. It should be noted that his wife is a Jew who was giving tarot readings not that long ago. But I also don't blame him not wanting to nuke his own youtube channel.
What do you mean by not that long ago? Has she done tarot readings post her entry into the Church? The Church is full of people who previously dabbled in such things. The question is what do they now believe and advocate for? Every indication I've seen is that she rejects that type of stuff and discourages people from it. Maybe you know something I don't. Otherwise it's a pretty cheap statement. Like me saying Brother Augustine shouldn't be trusted because he's Jewish by blood and was recently a mason.
 
What do you mean by not that long ago? Has she done tarot readings post her entry into the Church? The Church is full of people who previously dabbled in such things. The question is what do they now believe and advocate for? Every indication I've seen is that she rejects that type of stuff and discourages people from it. Maybe you know something I don't. Otherwise it's a pretty cheap statement. Like me saying Brother Augustine shouldn't be trusted because he's Jewish by blood and was recently a mason.
By not that long ago, I mean a few short years ago. If she stopped doing witchcraft after joining the Orthodox Church then that's good. I was under the impression she and Dyer were members for longer than that.

But you're also raising a deeper question. Say a child molester repents of his sin and comes to Christ. Would you put him in charge of your day care at your church? Or would you exercise caution with such a one? I would also exercise caution with these two, one was looking for a niche and finally found one that stuck, the other misled people spiritually and is now claiming to lead people spiritually. Test the spirits to see if they are of God.
 
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By not that long ago, I mean a few short years ago. If she stopped doing witchcraft after joining the Orthodox Church then that's good. I was under the impression she and Dyer were members for longer than that.
I'm pretty sure neither have dabbled in anything like tarot cards since joining the Church. The point I was making was that it's a stretch to say that Jay doesn't name the Jew because his wife dabbled in tarot cards before joining the Church. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you said, but that seemed to be the implication. It's also worth pointing out that Jay is anti-zionist in terms of his geo-political views, he doesn't have a philo-Jewish stance at all. There's a difference between leaving some things unsaid in order not to be deplatformed prematurely and deliberately misleading people.

But you're also raising a deeper question. Say a child molester repents of his sin and comes to Christ. Would you put him in charge of your day care at your church? Or would you exercise caution with such a one? I would also exercise caution with these two, one was looking for a niche and finally found one that stuck, the other misled people spiritually and is now claiming to lead people spiritually. Test the spirits to see if they are of God.
No I would not put a reptentant child molester in charge of day care. However where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. Many of the most holy and zealous men and women are those that wandered very far from God. And in many cases they are the ones that suffered to the point that they cared enough about the truth to take on the most thankless missionary work. There are countless examples of those that came to the Church after dabbling in the occult. Neophytes should not rush into teaching others but also neither should they leave their gifts undeveloped and be excluded from ever teaching because of what they once were. Jay without doubt has certain talents that others don't have and has been the spark that brought many people into the Church. I don't like every aspect of the way he goes about things and he's scandalised people on multiple occasions so it is a double-edged sword. Ultimately since you so strongly disagree with his theology you're not going see as much positive in his activities as I do. However what he teaches is not un-Orthodox. I'm not sure why you think the Orthodox Church is "letting him get away with it". The Orthodox that want to silence him are usually the liberal types that don't actually believe Church dogma and want to conform to the world.
 
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