Jay Dyer Thread

[GodfatherPartTwo]

You cause God to save you, and God causes you to be saved.

You're thinking in terms of contradictions, but with God all things are possible and there are no contradictions for Him. He exists outside of time and can be in an infinite number of places at the same time.

Thus God creates you and I, so that we may be saved, but that we do so by saving ourselves. Such is the mystery of the Lord!

I'm sorry but I just find answers like these to be incoherent. You are correct, there are no contradictions in God, so why would I believe in a self-contradictory statement about Him?

Some people believe the Bible to be a mess of contradictory statements. But when I read it, I see the same message being consistently spoken.

Paul goes to great lengths in Romans to demonstrate that salvation is of God and not of ourselves. He even uses an analogy of receiving a paycheck. Grace is a free gift, it is not a reward for doing something right.

Ultimately my concern for those who see something in themselves that deserves salvation is this, if you want to be judged according to your personal works, merits, and righteousness, then you will be. And that judgement will not turn out in your favor.

Can you show me anything in the Bible that says "God has made salvation a possibility but it is up to us to make sure we are saved"? Because I see the Bible saying that God does save, not in potentiality, but in actuality.

 

[Samseau]

I'm sorry but I just find answers like these to be incoherent. You are correct, there are no contradictions in God, so why would I believe in a self-contradictory statement about Him?

Some people believe the Bible to be a mess of contradictory statements. But when I read it, I see the same message being consistently spoken.

Paul goes to great lengths in Romans to demonstrate that salvation is of God and not of ourselves. He even uses an analogy of receiving a paycheck. Grace is a free gift, it is not a reward for doing something right.

Ultimately my concern for those who see something in themselves that deserves salvation is this, if you want to be judged according to your personal works, merits, and righteousness, then you will be. And that judgement will not turn out in your favor.

You see, God already knows how we will use our free will. God already knows if we will freely choose to go to Him or not, because God knows all things. Thus we are predestined, and yet we have free will. Things that are impossible for man are possible for God.

It's not incoherent, it's a mystery. Logically this is consistent, because we are dealing with a being who is beyond contradictions.

This took me years to grasp as well, by the way. It's not easy to understand!

By the way - the word "mystery" comes from "mysteria," which means to "see something through squinted eyes." It comes from when Moses sees God through the clouds, barely able to see a bit of him. That is what it is like to grasp God.

 

[Samseau]

Can you show me anything in the Bible that says "God has made salvation a possibility but it is up to us to make sure we are saved"? Because I see the Bible saying that God does save, not in potentiality, but in actuality.

Matt 7:24 "Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."

It's up to you to act.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

You see, God already knows how we will use our free will. God already knows if we will freely choose to go to Him or not, because God knows all things.

God does indeed know how we will use our will, which is not free but enslaved to sin. This is why He intervenes to save us, because we cannot save ourselves. It is not even something we desire apart from His illuminating grace.

Thus we are predestined, and yet we have free will. Things that are impossible for man are possible for God.

The purpose of His election and predestination is not according to His foreknowledge of what we will do. That is Romans 9. He does not need to predestinate us to do what we were going to do anyway, he predestinates us to be saved when we would've been damned otherwise.

It's up to you to act.

We are commanded to act, but it is not up to us to act. Why? Because according to Phillipians 2, it is God in us who is causing us to will and to act according to His good pleasure.

 

[Iacobus]

We are commanded to act, but it is not up to us to act.

This is an incoherent position.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

This is an incoherent position.

It's not. It's what Pelagius could not accept, and what led to him becoming anathematized by the Church.

If God commands you to be perfect, it does not mean that you can make yourself perfect. Rather, He makes you perfect.

 

[Iacobus]

It's not.

If we have no ability as creatures to perform acts of the will (IE toward or away from God), then why is a huge amount of of the Scripture, including virtually all of Christ's teachings, dedicated toward instructing us how to act and exercise our will toward God or warning us of the consequences if fail to act and exercise our will toward God?

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

If we have no ability as creatures to perform acts of the will

Not even what I'm arguing.

You do act according to your will, and your will is according to your nature, which is fallen and sinful. You need God to deliver you from your sinful state. When you do act according to the Will of God, it is God in you who is causing you to will and to act according to His good pleasure. Which is why He deserves all of the glory, not us.

 

[Iacobus]

When you do act according to the Will of God, it is God in you who is causing you to will and to act according to His good pleasure.

"When you choose to act in this way, you are not choosing to act in this way."

Incoherent.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

"When you choose to act in this way, you are not choosing to act in this way."

Incoherent.

When you choose to act in this way, it is God in you who is causing you to act in this way.

Not incoherent, that's just the Bible.

If you believe the Bible can be amended by Ecumenical Councils, that's one thing. But even the Ecumenical Council of Carthage affirms this. When Jesus said, "Apart from me, you can do nothing." He meant it.

 

[Iacobus]

If we have no ability as creatures to perform acts of the will toward God, then why is a huge amount of of the Scripture, including virtually all of Christ's teachings, dedicated toward instructing us how to act and exercise our will toward God?

This question stands unanswered BTW. Slightly modified to account for your clarified position.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

This question stands unanswered BTW. Slightly modified to account for your clarified position.

OK, then I'll give an answer. The way you are posing the question would put the Bible at odds with itself. God instructs us how to act and exercise our will toward God to show us what true faith looks like. It also tells us that we are incapable of doing those things because we are sinful and that He causes us to do those good things. Both of these statements are true and hold together. There needn't be a false-dichotomy inserted between them.

 

[Iacobus]

OK, then I'll give an answer. The way you are posing the question would put the Bible at odds with itself.

Exactly my point. But it's not me who is posing it this way, it's you.

God instructs us how to act and exercise our will toward God to show us what true faith looks like. It also tells us that we are incapable of doing those things because we are sinful and that He causes us to do those good things. Both of these statements are true and hold together. There needn't be a false-dichotomy inserted between them.

You're not answering the question, you're just rephrasing it. If we are incapable of exerting our will toward true faith then why do we need true faith to be shown to us?

It is you who is proposing the false dichotomy by ignoring synergism and acting as if I am arguing Pelagianism.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

You're not answering the question, you're just rephrasing it.

I'm answering your questions, what do you want from me?

If we are incapable of exerting our will toward true faith then why do we need true faith to be shown to us?

Because once God has given us the gift of faith and regenerated our nature, we are free to exercise our renewed will according to His good pleasure. I do not reject synergism with regard to your sanctification, I only reject it with regard to your justification, which is prior to your sanctification.

It is you who is proposing the false dichotomy by ignoring synergism and acting as if I am arguing Pelagianism.

I'm not. The problem with unbridled synergism is that it is functionally pelagian. The Bible's statements about man's inability to please God, God's election not being based on our will or works but on His mercy, God renewing the heart of the believer and causing his will and works for good, etc. should be allowed to have their say on these issues.

 

[Samseau]

We are commanded to act, but it is not up to us to act. Why? Because according to Phillipians 2, it is God in us who is causing us to will and to act according to His good pleasure.

But only if you put your faith in Him. When one places their faith in God, then He can work through you. And since faith is a choice, it is up to us to act towards being faithful, so that the Lord may work through us.

Paul doesn't say this fully in Phil 2, but if you read the rest of his writings in combination with the rest of Christ's teachings, this is what he meant.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

But only if you put your faith in Him. When one places their faith in God, then He can work through you.

I agree that faith alone is the instrument of how we receive God's grace. But I disagree with your next clause.

And since faith is a choice, it is up to us to act towards being faithful, so that the Lord may work through us.

Faith is not a choice, it is the free gift of God, described as such in Ephesians 2. Sinner that I am, how can I work faith in myself? It is not from myself, but faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. When you place your faith in Christ, it is the Holy Spirit who is working that in you.

 

[Samseau]

Faith is not a choice, it is the free gift of God, described as such in Ephesians 2. Sinner that I am, how can I work faith in myself? It is not from myself, but faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. When you place your faith in Christ, it is the Holy Spirit who is working that in you.

But this is false, as we see throughout Christ's ministry, it is the Samaratan, the Greek, the Roman, the Jew, who come to Christ and put their faith in Him to be saved. And Christ says to them all, "By your faith, you are saved..."

It's not by God's faith. It's by their faith. They choose to believe, and it was so. "As you believe, it shall be so."

Thus your understand of Eph 2 is incorrect - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—"

Paul isn't saying that someone chooses to believe or not. Paul is saying that our faith comes from Christ, and that was the ultimate gift from God, therefore, our faith isn't ours since it comes from Christ which was the ultimate act of mercy.

But as it was in Christ's time, Jesus sent out his disciples to the houses of the Jews, and those who rejected them made a choice, and the dust of their sandals will be more punishing for them than it was on the Day of Destruction for Sodom.

We choose, but God also knows who will choose Him. Thus faith is a gift from God, yet also a choice by man.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

But this is false

What's false? Ephesians 2 saying that faith is a gift of God so that no one may boast?

Paul isn't saying that someone chooses to believe or not.

Agreed.

Paul is saying that our faith comes from Christ, and that was the ultimate gift from God, therefore, our faith isn't ours since it comes from Christ which was the ultimate act of mercy.

Agreed.

But as it was in Christ's time, Jesus sent out his disciples to the houses of the Jews, and those who rejected them made a choice, and the dust of their sandals will be more punishing for them than it was on the Day of Destruction for Sodom.

Agreed with this as well. When you reject the Gospel, you are making a choice to reject it and you will be punished for it. When you accept the Gospel, it is God who is gifting you the faith necessary to believe it, and this is done out of His mercy. Elsewhere, the Book of Acts speaks of the Apostles evangelizing a crowd, but the ones who were appointed to eternal life were the ones who believed.

We choose, but God also knows who will choose Him. Thus faith is a gift from God, yet also a choice by man.

OK, but it's also true that God knows who will choose Him because He knows whom He will grace by gifting faith. If we are condemned, then we are justly punished for choosing rebellion. If we are saved, then we have been gifted, not earned, a pardon from God.

 

[Samseau]

OK, but it's also true that God knows who will choose Him because He knows whom He will grace by gifting faith. If we are condemned, then we are justly punished for choosing rebellion. If we are saved, then we have been gifted, not earned, a pardon from God.

There you go! And now you're an Orthodox. Congrats.

 

[Iacobus]

I'm answering your questions, what do you want from me?


Because once God has given us the gift of faith and regenerated our nature, we are free to exercise our renewed will according to His good pleasure. I do not reject synergism with regard to your sanctification, I only reject it with regard to your justification, which is prior to your sanctification.


I'm not. The problem with unbridled synergism is that it is functionally pelagian. The Bible's statements about man's inability to please God, God's election not being based on our will or works but on His mercy, God renewing the heart of the believer and causing his will and works for good, etc. should be allowed to have their say on these issues.

Let me try to make an analogy, as always I invite my Orthodox brothers to correct me if I have something wrong as I am not a theological expert.

Imagine we are hanging from a cliff by our finger tips and our strength is waning. Then a savior appears at the edge of the cliff and offers His hand to us.

We have the choice to reach out and take His hand, or to reject it and ultimately fall and perish.

If we reach out and take His hand, we have made a choice and exercised our will in that direction.

However, clearly, we did not save ourselves. Without our savior we would have certainly perished. We cannot brag or boast about how we saved ourselves. The credit is fully due to our savior. We did not pull ourselves up because we did not have the power to do this. But we still exercised will and agency in the process of accepting that saving hand rather than rejecting it. This is synergism. Pelagianism would be the belief that we can climb up over that cliff edge on our own power.

The alternative position is that God reaches down to save and pull up some regardless of their action and will, and does not reach down for others regardless of their action and will. Which is clearly untrue on the basis we all know and accept that Christ died for all.

(Side note: mods perhaps this thread should be split into Christianity General and retitled as it's fairly off topic)