Bitcoin and Crypto Thread

It's very odd that you clearly recognize all other crypto as being worthless and without much use, but have a glaring blind spot in the case of Bitcoin. I mean, you guys literally portray Bitcoin as a discovery akin to fire or electricity, when in reality it's no different from these other useless cryptos
We've told you at least 20x, maybe 50x, why it's vastly different.
But the fact that only 21 million worthless internet tokens called Bitcoins exist does not make them inherently valuable,
You do this all the time.
Again, you guys seem to have a severe difficulty in understanding the fact that just because the USD and other fiat currencies have weaknesses, that does not make Bitcoin inherently valuable
Here you do it again. Because you say one thing that is technically correct, you stop yourself from thinking more about it, an example of first order thinking. The reason why it is deemed valuable by so many people willing to pay higher and higher amounts (including large institutions, and billionaires like Fink/Blackrock, Druckenmiller, P Tudor Jones, etc) is because it is absolutely scarce, is energy based, has an expanding network, is the most secure computer network in the world, has the best monetary characteristics, the list goes ON AND ON. No, any single characteristic or stupid government doesn't make it valuable, in conjunction they ALL DO. Read that 20 times, then read it again, please. It's embarrassing that you won't let yourself understand it because of your own ego and/or lack of desire to study it and think about it. I say that because we've told you that over and over yet you repeat meaningless, one dimensional statements that you think are convincing, but they aren't.
They're going to learn some very, very painful lessons sooner or later about the limits of their own understanding, the enormous trouble that hubris can get you into, and the difference between an asset with inherent value and a Ponzi asset.
Sadly, this is projection and will end up just applying to you. You'll find some way to act like you didn't want it, didn't need it, you were "true to yourself" or some other such cope, though, and we'll just laugh.
 
We've told you at least 20x, maybe 50x, why it's vastly different.
You can spout your nonsense a hundred more times, that won't make it any more true.
The reason why it is deemed valuable by so many people willing to pay higher and higher amounts (including large institutions, and billionaires like Fink/Blackrock, Druckenmiller, P Tudor Jones, etc) is because it is absolutely scarce, is energy based, has an expanding network, is the most secure computer network in the world, has the best monetary characteristics, the list goes ON AND ON.
Literally none of these things matter and have nothing to do with the reason people are buying Bitcoin. You're regurgitating a sales pitch, basically (one that you fell for and which you now dutifully proselytize to others in an attempt to pump your bags). People are buying because they think the price will continue to go up. That's it. All of this hype about Bitcoin's unique and wonderful properties is just post hoc rationalization for naked greed.
Sadly, this is projection and will end up just applying to you. You'll find some way to act like you didn't want it, didn't need it, you were "true to yourself" or some other such cope, though, and we'll just laugh.
Why are you going to laugh? Because you'll be super wealthy and cruising around on your yacht while I'm scrounging through the trash for leftover scraps? Color me dubious. I mean, we're still waiting on your "100k by the end of the year!" prediction dating back to 2021. So I doubt you'll be cruising around on that yacht any time soon.
 
Literally none of these things matter and have nothing to do with the reason people are buying Bitcoin.
Which ones aren't true?

We're just asking you to faithfully argue the points. For example, every characteristic I listed (that's why I broke it down) is not debatable. It's scarce, energy is used to run and secure the network, it is owned by many including some of the richest people in the world, those are all facts. I don't even think you deny any of them, so why do you say they don't matter? Because you don't want them to matter?

I break things down here, and chance often does and in certain posts much better than I, into component pieces so that one might put together that what we are saying is true, piece by piece. What you are doing is stating your conclusion that it doesn't matter first, then saying the components don't matter, which is weird because anyone can see that of course all of those things matter, and matter greatly, in life. I know I'm not going to make you drink, but you and I both know what I wrote is factual, piece by piece, and not even disputed. Isn't it weird to you that then you argument becomes, as I've exposed it, just you saying "none of that matters"? That's my point, that yours is not an argument. It's a feeling.

You don't own BTC, nor are you involved in the network, which is fine. But even the part after you state "none of these things matter" is another claim you could not possibly prove, certainly not to scale: you know the reason people are buying BTC. But you don't, another fact. You think you do, but you think a lot that I've already proven is wrong.
 
What upsets me about this discussion is the lack of understanding risk.

I remember when Bitcoin was getting more popular and there was a dutch guy who was married and had two daughters. He sold his house and went all in Bitcoin. He probably made good profit (2X-3X) and did okay. But imagine taking such risk. Imagine if the economy suffered a crisis and losing his job and his house.

The problem with Bitcoin is that you can't get insurance. If you have a house, you can insure. If you have money in the stock market, you can insure it (buying SPY puts). Money in the bank? FDIC will protect you.
When you have decades of money saved, you want stability and protection so you can sleep knowing that in the worst-case scenario, you'll be okay. We can use extreme examples like war but that's too extreme of a tail event.

If you're young and have $50k in the bank, go all in Bitcoin if you really believe in it. If it tanks 50%, $25k is nothing when you're working.
But now imagine you in your 60's, having $500k-$1mil in Bitcoin(all your savings) and the price going down 50%. Try to imagine your mental health, knowing the money that took you decades of work turned to half and you don't know if it is going down even more.

I don't think Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme. But people might invest like one. Imagine you're the retiree who bought Bitcoin and doubled your money. You had such a good experience that you will end up repeating. Until you get rekt by buying at the wrong time.

You can say the same with the dollar collapsing. But the dollar is a world reserve currency. If there is a collapse, expect prices for assets to also come down since people will need to cover debts. To make it more simple to understand, everyone will get screwed.


I like Bitcoin but some guys pushing it with the expectation of the price going up (exponentially) forever do not understand risk.
 
It's scarce, energy is used to run and secure the network, it is owned by many including some of the richest people in the world, those are all facts. I don't even think you deny any of them, so why do you say they don't matter? Because you don't want them to matter?
I didn't deny those things are true, I just said they don't matter. And they don't. Because they're also true of many other cryptos. Indeed, I could copy Bitcoin's code exactly and make my own crypto called "scorpion coin" that would have the exact same properties as Bitcoin, absent one: the network effect. But my coin would obviously be completely worthless, even though it was technically identical to Bitcoin. Thus, if my coin is identical to Bitcoin in every way (except for the existing Bitcoin network) and is worthless, it's obvious that Bitcoin's ONLY and ENTIRE value is due to its network. And that network is based on its popularity, and its popularity is based on the widespread (but unfounded) belief that Bitcoin will continue to appreciate indefinitely.

You accuse me of being dull or somehow having "not thought about" Bitcoin, but I've been aware of Bitcoin much longer than you and have obviously thought about it much more critically than you have. The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean that I haven't done my homework, it just means that we've drawn different conclusions from the same data set. And my belief is that Bitcoin is ultimately just a passing fad that will eventually implode once its popularity wanes, because as I stated, none of its value is due to any unique, inherent property it possesses. Rather, all of its value is due to popularity and its network, which is driven by greed and hype, and which could be severely disrupted or destroyed in a number of different ways. And that destruction could be drawn out over years or it could happen literally overnight. But ultimately, an asset whose only value is derived from its popularity will be discarded and replaced by something else. Such is the nature of fads. You think you've discovered something new and different with Bitcoin, but human psychology does not change, nor do the fundamentals of economics, and both dictate that Bitcoin's ultimate value is zero.
 
@Joost I am not pushing Bitcoin with any expectations of price, I'm not advocating anyone to buy it...my goal is to get people thinking about what money is, how it emerges, the properties that cause something to gain monetary premium, and how superior truthful money is compared to fraudulent money.

Trying to understand Bitcoin, without a thorough understanding of money, is like trying to understand how an airplane flies without an understanding of Newtonian physics. That's where the average person gets stalled: they think they already know what money is - starting from a poor foundation will never yield the proper understanding.

Believe it or not, the only price I look at regularly is transaction fees. The Fiat price means little to me. I think in terms of 10 or 20 years, not what happens next year.

You make an excellent point. Someone that buys Bitcoin, not understanding what it is, will eventually get in a bad situation. @scorpion should definitely not buy (much) Bitcoin
 
... my goal is to get people thinking about what money is...
Christ's goal is to get people thinking about what money is not. It is nothing. Get rid of it. Dump it. Stop obsessing about it. Do you really want to be in bed with the dark, greedy, under world characters of the crypto world? And yes, the same can (and should) be said about the US dollar. We should all be striving to let go of money and things... "My kingdom is not of this world."

You have enough. Bitcoin is all about poverty consciousness and gambling. The fear is deep and the adrenaline rush of seeing your money grow out of "nothing" is exciting, but always remember that you are playing a satanic jew invented game of, "The one who dies with the most toys wins."

This has nothing to do with electricity, or access, or civilizational collapse, or governmental overreach and control and everything to do with right versus wrong. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
 
Indeed, I could copy Bitcoin's code exactly and make my own crypto called "scorpion coin" that would have the exact same properties as Bitcoin, absent one: the network effect.
At least you've understood one part of what we are saying. Chance gets at the more important part of things, which is understanding money since ultimately it is a technology and a network. Even with gold, we either need technology to mine it (or more of it) or we need to use technology to expand on it as base layer, since it as a physical entity is problematic for the modern, digital or global world.

The other part of the frailty of the argument that you can "replicate" something is that you can say that about any product in the entire world. The reality is, which is funny that you won't admit, it doesn't matter if you can, because you don't have reputation, distribution channels, trust, etc. So your point loses again. Chance has stated it in a different way as well: there's no such thing as a johnny come lately "discovering" something again after it has been discovered. By definition.
And that network is based on its popularity, and its popularity is based on the widespread (but unfounded) belief that Bitcoin will continue to appreciate indefinitely.
It'll probably be closer to a Weibull S distribution but yes, it will. The big moves come now, also by definition, and we've already explained why. You also confuse another important point regarding why it's popular, which distinguishes it from what you call a "fad". You will be penalized if you don't participate in the network. And we know this because we already live in fiat-land. If one must work to live, which is true (though possibly temporarily not the case for some), you will always seek out the better money, because if you don't, you pay the price for not recognizing it. It's funny to think that someone might make the decision that getting ripped off by the government is more "moral" than getting paid in something that retains value, or relatively increases in value, over time.
This has nothing to do with electricity, or access, or civilizational collapse, or governmental overreach and control and everything to do with right versus wrong. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
Like I said, man has to work, and that can be a good thing, of course. Why shouldn't we demand to be paid in something that doesn't allow us to be literally cheated, or if we can stop it, others stealing from us? That's not obsessing about anything. The call to live as a monk, or as a hippy commune participant, even if that were a calling, is not for everyone. Some people can and want to help people with their money, their clout, their leadership, etc. That's the way they show love for fellow humans and as a result, for God. That's part of the command to love the Lord your God (with all your heart, soul, mind) = by using your talents.

I can agree with you that people wrongly stress monetary or material accumulation and miss the big picture of things while simultaneously supporting proper money and legitimate payment systems which lessen human abuse. So that's what I'm doing.

If you don't think the control of the monetary system via the printer and the debt based system is the primary method for human debasement and abuse, and also to support unnecessary wars and murder of human beings, you aren't paying attention. If what you are saying is about "right and wrong" then there is absolutely every reason for you to promote BTC.
 
The fact that Bitcoin is a clock is hiding in plain sight. Indeed, Satoshi points out that the Bitcoin network as a whole acts as a clock, or, in his words: a distributed timestamp server.

In this paper, we propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer distributed timestamp server to generate computational proof of the chronological order of transactions.

Satoshi Nakamoto (2009)

That timestamping was the root problem to be solved is also apparent by examining the reference at the end of the Bitcoin whitepaper. Out of the eight references in total, three are about timestamping:


 
The other part of the frailty of the argument that you can "replicate" something is that you can say that about any product in the entire world.
That is an oversimplification. There are many products which cannot be replicated due to patents, licensing/permits, cost (some companies have a huge cost advantage over others), proprietary data, and a variety of other reasons.

Bitcoin is open source and has no barriers to entry other than its network effect which is the point Scorpion was trying to make.

Now the argument hinges on whether the Bitcoin network effect will increase over time (which is what you and Chance argue) or if it will decrease over time (Scorpion's argument).
 
And that network is based on its popularity, and its popularity is based on the widespread (but unfounded) belief that Bitcoin will continue to appreciate indefinitely.
I think at the moment realistically most people do use Bitcoin as a vehicle for speculation but I think once the network reaches a tipping point and there is widepsread acceptance people will start actually using it as a form of money at least for large transactions for example countries selling their oil and gas for Bitcoin, people selling their houses for Bitcoin, people buying multi-million dollar high end art for Bitcoin etc. You can often have more than one currency system operate in the same country. At one point in time gold and silver were used together as a dual monetary standard with silver typically being used for smaller transactions. In Argentina for example almost everything is priced in Argentine pesos except for properties which are usually listed for sale priced in U.S. dollars.

El Salvador legalized Bitcoin as legal tender a while ago. Whose to say more developing economies won;t do the same one day. Argentina was having discussions about doing it so the door is open to Bitcoinization of the Argentine financial system in the future.

Now Russia is approving it as a method of settlement for settling foreign currency transactions. Whose to say more countries that are sanctioned won't do what Russia just did?
 
Since we don’t have to talk only about price…

I installed the Proton Wallet (beta) for iPhone. It looks promising. For Android there was Samourai. For iPhone there was no decent wallet and apparently Proton is changing that. The app is simple and provide some privacy (they say no metadata is retained).

For the beta you need an invite and have to install Test Pilot (Apple app) that tracks its use, so I don’t recommend to use the app yet.


If you use Mac, I like Wasabi (good interface and a mixer).
Bisq for selling your coins and Cash App to buy (selling gets reported to the IRS).

Proton Wallet might be the best option for iPhone when it gets out of beta. Looks good so far.
 
Since we don’t have to talk only about price…

I installed the Proton Wallet (beta) for iPhone. It looks promising. For Android there was Samourai. For iPhone there was no decent wallet and apparently Proton is changing that. The app is simple and provide some privacy (they say no metadata is retained).

For the beta you need an invite and have to install Test Pilot (Apple app) that tracks its use, so I don’t recommend to use the app yet.


If you use Mac, I like Wasabi (good interface and a mixer).
Bisq for selling your coins and Cash App to buy (selling gets reported to the IRS).

Proton Wallet might be the best option for iPhone when it gets out of beta. Looks good so far.
Proton is just another example of the UX hurdle of Bitcoin being lowered with software and human ingenuity. Send money like sending an email is the goal.

Maybe even require anyone who wants to send an email to your an address a very small payment, 5 cents? Imagine the reduction in spam then? Or a text message to your phone number? Similar to my rough explanation of how to secure sensitive government infrastructure using Bitcoin in cyberwarfare.

Imagine how much easier it will be 5 years from now.
 
I think at the moment realistically most people do use Bitcoin as a vehicle for speculation but I think once the network reaches a tipping point and there is widepsread acceptance people will start actually using it as a form of money at least for large transactions for example countries selling their oil and gas for Bitcoin, people selling their houses for Bitcoin, people buying multi-million dollar high end art for Bitcoin etc.
Bitcoin being used as a currency of international settlement by governments and large corporations strikes me as a much more plausible outcome than it being adopted by the masses as currency or investment. That being said, if such a hard currency/asset was recognized as being necessary by those actors, I suspect that a new one would be designed, built and deployed expressly for this purpose. In this regard, Bitcoin would have served as a useful beta test for the concept of a secure digital asset. But there is utterly no reason to believe that the most powerful and wealthy people in the world would jointly decide to behold themselves to chance vought, Blade Runner and other long term HODLers by unnecessarily chaining themselves to a Bitcoin standard. I mean, there has long been talk of a standardized, non-fiat, uninflatable global currency of exactly this sort (i.e. Keynes's Bancor). But the idea that it would be Bitcoin is utterly risible, and is nothing more than the delusion of greedy HODLers who salivate at the prospect of becoming fabulously rich for doing nothing, and thereby joining the wealthy elites whom they claim to so vehemently despise.
 
@scorpion China and India thought that by staying on a silver standard, when the rest of the world was on gold, that they would be immune to the west’s control of wealth in gold…they were not.

Bitcoin has the value already, another made up government shipcoin won’t have value. I’m not hoping for government adoption, though I think it is inevitable, just like the world didn’t have a choice with gold - either adopt gold as the standard, or end up a slave to those who did.
 
Creating digital scarcity can only work once…if it worked every time someone created a copy of Bitcoin, then it can’t exist.

Like if alchemy could turn lead into gold, gold would no longer have monetary value.
 
Creating digital scarcity can only work once…if it worked every time someone created a copy of Bitcoin, then it can’t exist.
…which is exactly why it doesn't exist. It boggles my mind that you clearly understand this about other cryptos and NFTs, but don't see that it also applies to Bitcoin. There is nothing special about Bitcoin's "digital scarcity". It is entirely a matter of popularity and perception. You are no different than members of the Bored Ape Yacht Club excitedly buying .jpg pictures of monkeys for thousands of dollars apiece, convinced they will soon be worth millions. But just like in the case of NFTs, reality will eventually assert itself with Bitcoin as well. Pictures of monkeys are not worth thousands of dollars, much less millions, no matter how much people try to hype them up as the next big thing. Similarly, there's nothing uniquely valuable (or even interesting) about the Bitcoin ledger that will continue to propel its popularity into the future. It's a fad that mostly appeals to disaffected internet libertarians and broke Millennials banking their financial future on a Bitcoin moonshot. Unfortunately, "Digital scarcity" is nothing more than a meme invented by Bitcoin whales to rope in hapless dupes to be their exit liquidity, and everyone who is ever going to get rich off Bitcoin already has.
 
But there is utterly no reason to believe that the most powerful and wealthy people in the world would jointly decide to behold themselves to chance vought, Blade Runner and other long term HODLers by unnecessarily chaining themselves to a Bitcoin standard.
The God-State complex returns. You lack any curiosity or knowledge about game theory. You also don't know what BTC is still, so you apparently don't know that whatever they want any longer is irrelevant, since they can't force people to use their bad money anymore.
…which is exactly why it doesn't exist. It boggles my mind that you clearly understand this about other cryptos and NFTs, but don't see that it also applies to Bitcoin.
So BTC doesn't exist, but markets trade it higher and higher for its entire existence, rich people and the biggest funds in the world own it, etc. Sure dude. You still don't understand the difference between BTC and "crypto"? Just do some homework, please.
Similarly, there's nothing uniquely valuable (or even interesting) about the Bitcoin ledger that will continue to propel its popularity into the future. It's a fad that mostly appeals to disaffected internet libertarians and broke Millennials banking their financial future on a Bitcoin moonshot.
I'm sure others can see this, but has it ever occurred to you that you don't even argue against BTC with anything of substance? It's just ad hominem over and over, appeals to emotion, and no serious discussion.

It's going to be fun when we're well over six figures. Boy, I'm going to love Thanksgiving dinner this year.
 
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