“We are unable to favor this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but could never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people. And so if you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with churches and priests to baptize all of you."
The Israel-Hamas War Lounge
- Thread starter Ember
- Start date
“We are unable to favor this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but could never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people. And so if you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with churches and priests to baptize all of you."
Different people.
Who needs "blood libel" when they're literally rolling up their sleeves for it?
Danke schön: German Air Force commander arrives in Israel to donate blood
Danke schön: German Air Force commander arrives in Israel to donate blood
Attachments
Again, it all depends on how well prepared these tunnels are. If these tunnels go miles deep, no bunker buster bombs will matter. If they are properly ventilated and equipped with drainage systems, no amount of water or nerve gas will do anything. They could have a power cable running to Egypt miles underground that no one knows about. They could have massive hydroponic farms, massive caverns filled with oil, oil and gas generators, etc. Sky's the limit, the question is how big and how developed are these tunnels? 20+ years with 500K men comitted to ideological fervor is huge cheap labor pool. Iran could easily fund the construction of a massive underground labyrinth for 10-20 million if the Hamas fighters are working for God.
That said, there might be little underground, or it could be a giant surprise. If Hamas was planning this all along and it turns out to be a giant military base that goes for thousands of miles underground, than Israel has walked into a deathtrap.
Central Turkey, Cappadocia region has a history of hiding in cave/tunnel cities. Some are now museums.
It's different, they were digging through very soft rock, which also has the property of structural integrity; once you dig, you don't need to reinforce it.
Between the Roman, Byzantine, and other periods, people would take their villages inside of the cave network and hide for extended periods.
The caves were cramped of course, but still had kitchens with cooking vents that were dug diagonally so that intruding armies couldn't just see smoke coming up and dig straight down and find them.
They even had stables to keep livestock alive! Food is one thing, but storing large amounts of water sounds incredibly difficult at that time. Supposedly they'd mix it with wine to kill some of the bacteria.
Amazing what people used to do.
10-20 million? That sounds a little fantastic.
Not at all, you've got men who are willing to work for the basics: food, shelter, and a wife. Wages not necessary beyond this. Then you've got dollars being converted into Egyptian Pound, which is worth far less than US Dollars:
So as long as the $20 million is used to build cheap housing above, plus food (which to be fair the local economy of Gaza can probably support itself enough to provide food, plus international aid), then all the rest can go to digging equipment, electrical equipment, some metal for tunnel supports, which Iran all gets for cheap from China and Russia.
I have no idea how zealous the Palestinians are, but if they are willing to work for essentially free then a massive underground complex is indeed possible on the cheap.
Looks like ISIS has been unleashed - and obviously on the US/Israel side.
Total miscommunication. Getting a bunch of tunnels built for $10-20 million USD is totally reasonable.
I thought you meant tunnels to hold 10-20 million people
Not sure if these have been posted yet, but I thought they were insightful with regard to the Christian Palestinians:
Ironically, evangelicals provide a lot of kindling for this war:
Ironically, evangelicals provide a lot of kindling for this war:
Yeah, and suddenly as we're talking about tunnels a whole ton of info on tunnels has dropped on Wikipedia:
Tunnel warfare has been ongoing for at least 15 years. Israel has developed bombs that drill into the ground as a way to try and strike at tunnels. Tunnels into Egypt have been found, as well as tunnels into Israel in every direction. Israel has responded with deeper walls and better underground sensor tech, which has cost them BILLIONS of dollars.
I can see why Israel wants to invade because Hamas is a clever opponent who costs Israel a tremendous amount of money to fight. However, it seems all but certain that this tunnel network is massive. From the Wikipedia article, one hostage described her experience as the tunnel networks resembling a "spider web."
So, we've got a massive tunnel network with multiple levels. In between the levels are drainage and ventilation. At the center, perhaps half a mile or deeper, lies the actual city of Gaza where the majority of troops and their families live. You've got layers of tunnel networks above going to the surface that work as multiple lines of defense, as well as potential points to breach the surface and launch attacks. This is like a large underground trench warfare system. It's pretty unbelievable.
At first, I thought Israel was going to genocide Gaza and crush resistance with no problems. Victory for Israel seemed inevitable unless outside actors like Hezbollah steps in to draw away Israel forces. I thought Israel had a 100% chance of victory. But, in light of just how insane this tunnel system is, I think odds of victory for Israel is only 60% now. A lot can go wrong.
First of all, rooting out Hamas of these tunnels is going to take a year, at minimum it seems. There is no easy way into the tunnels. And if Israel does something like flood the tunnels with water or chemical gas, then all they do is protect the inner layer of tunnels where Hamas is because the outer layers will be toxic or non-traversable. Meanwhile, the inner-most part of the tunnels, where the actual city of Gaza is, will be able to drill out in other directions into Egypt or Israel for food and supplies. This is because above the actual under-city will be a massive ventilation and drainage system, so anything poured down the tunnels is drained or vented out to the Mediterranean. Sieging these tunnels seems like a herculean task that could take years.
So if Israel has 2/3's of their army stuck in a tiny city of Gaza, pre-occupied with this incredible tunnel network for years, then at some point other Muslims in the area will smell weakness and attack. This could easily force Israel to withdraw some or all of their forces from Gaza, which will be a major victory for Hamas. Even a partial withdrawal means Hamas will have a much easier time resurfacing and picking off Israeli troops.
All of this is speculative, of course, and anything can happen in war, but gentlemen, we may be looking at a modern "300" situation where a small group of Muslims in Gaza hold back a MUCH larger army because they've wedged themselves into such an intractable defensive position. A sophisticated under-fortress is a true beast to tackle. Gaza may go down in Islamic history as some of the greatest warriors to have ever lived, and will easily move a majority of Muslims worldwide into the Iranian camp away from the Sauds due to such badassery. I'm not sure how Isreal would survive if humiliated in Gaza.
Tunnel warfare has been ongoing for at least 15 years. Israel has developed bombs that drill into the ground as a way to try and strike at tunnels. Tunnels into Egypt have been found, as well as tunnels into Israel in every direction. Israel has responded with deeper walls and better underground sensor tech, which has cost them BILLIONS of dollars.
I can see why Israel wants to invade because Hamas is a clever opponent who costs Israel a tremendous amount of money to fight. However, it seems all but certain that this tunnel network is massive. From the Wikipedia article, one hostage described her experience as the tunnel networks resembling a "spider web."
So, we've got a massive tunnel network with multiple levels. In between the levels are drainage and ventilation. At the center, perhaps half a mile or deeper, lies the actual city of Gaza where the majority of troops and their families live. You've got layers of tunnel networks above going to the surface that work as multiple lines of defense, as well as potential points to breach the surface and launch attacks. This is like a large underground trench warfare system. It's pretty unbelievable.
At first, I thought Israel was going to genocide Gaza and crush resistance with no problems. Victory for Israel seemed inevitable unless outside actors like Hezbollah steps in to draw away Israel forces. I thought Israel had a 100% chance of victory. But, in light of just how insane this tunnel system is, I think odds of victory for Israel is only 60% now. A lot can go wrong.
First of all, rooting out Hamas of these tunnels is going to take a year, at minimum it seems. There is no easy way into the tunnels. And if Israel does something like flood the tunnels with water or chemical gas, then all they do is protect the inner layer of tunnels where Hamas is because the outer layers will be toxic or non-traversable. Meanwhile, the inner-most part of the tunnels, where the actual city of Gaza is, will be able to drill out in other directions into Egypt or Israel for food and supplies. This is because above the actual under-city will be a massive ventilation and drainage system, so anything poured down the tunnels is drained or vented out to the Mediterranean. Sieging these tunnels seems like a herculean task that could take years.
So if Israel has 2/3's of their army stuck in a tiny city of Gaza, pre-occupied with this incredible tunnel network for years, then at some point other Muslims in the area will smell weakness and attack. This could easily force Israel to withdraw some or all of their forces from Gaza, which will be a major victory for Hamas. Even a partial withdrawal means Hamas will have a much easier time resurfacing and picking off Israeli troops.
All of this is speculative, of course, and anything can happen in war, but gentlemen, we may be looking at a modern "300" situation where a small group of Muslims in Gaza hold back a MUCH larger army because they've wedged themselves into such an intractable defensive position. A sophisticated under-fortress is a true beast to tackle. Gaza may go down in Islamic history as some of the greatest warriors to have ever lived, and will easily move a majority of Muslims worldwide into the Iranian camp away from the Sauds due to such badassery. I'm not sure how Isreal would survive if humiliated in Gaza.
Considering that Hamas is a creation of Mossad and the CIA, and that much of the western media is under their thumb too, this doesn't surprise me too much.
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Is this true? It's so hard to know what's true anymore. This certainly goes towards dispelling any notion that the attack was a surprise to Israel or the US, but I already believed they knew ahead of time.
It's still a little surprising they would have journos embedded on this attack. The intent was to allow Hamas to enter unopposed, and leave Israeli citizens vulnerable to attack, to create a wag the dog opportunity. I'm surprised the journos would go along to see civilians caught unprotected like that. I mean, I'm sure they're absolutely bloodthirsty enough to want to, but you'd think they'd decide it would harm the narrative.
