The China Thread

Read_Lives_of_Saints said:
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I think the biometric control there is just to get into a private residential complex - a gated community. This is a highly deceiving tweet.

So are the other ones about alleged tens of thousands of homeless, these are mostly newly arrived migrant workers into the big city, camping out at night in front of local employment centers.

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That source, https://twitter.com/songpinganq is 100% fabricated anti-chinese propaganda, unlike "Illuminatibot" who has more various and often decent quality material that sometimes also veers into sensationalist clickbait (as is the case above with the biometric gate).

Also, the Chinese social credit system is not what we are commonly told it is, it is mostly a credit rating system not unlike Equifax or Experian. The question is whether its enforcement in China is more stringent than in the West, where you can't rent a car, get a loan or a mortgage with bad credit. Note as well that in the US the no-fly list is over 1 million people deep, and people in Canada and the EU get debanked for being political dissidents.

 
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Cooper said:
Also, the Chinese social credit system is not what we are commonly told it is, it is mostly a credit rating system not unlike Equifax or Experian. The question is whether its enforcement in China is more stringent than in the West, where you can't rent a car, get a loan or a mortgage with bad credit. Note as well that in the US the no-fly list is over 1 million people deep, and people in Canada and the EU get debanked for being political dissidents.

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I beg to differ:


China social credit system is being implemented by pilot programs in regions. It makes sense cause there´s 1,2B yellows. They are testing it out before releasing it nationwide.

Deepseek joins the conversation:

The most frequently cited and controversial example of a regional Social Credit System pilot program is the one implemented in Rongcheng, Shandong Province, which began around 2013. It stands out because it was the most direct attempt to create a comprehensive, points-based "score" for every single resident, making the abstract concept of "social credit" tangible in daily life.

Here is a breakdown of the Rongcheng system, why it's considered a more invasive example, and its current status:

The Mechanics of the Rongcheng System​

  1. The Universal Score: Every adult resident in Rongcheng (approx. 660,000 people at the time) started with a baseline score of 1,000 points. This was managed by the local government, not a private company.
  2. Granular Scoring: Points were added or subtracted for a vast array of behaviors, tracked through government data, reports from "information collectors," and public complaints.

    • Point Deductions (扣分): These included:

      • Minor Legal/Parking Violations: Like running a red light.
      • Social Misconduct: Cheating in exams, spreading rumors online, "disturbing public order" (like causing a scene), failing to visit elderly parents regularly, or improper garbage sorting.
      • Professional Misconduct: Defaulting on a loan, violating business contracts, or tax issues.
    • Point Additions (加分): These included:

      • "Model Citizen" Acts: Donating blood or money, volunteering, being praised in the media, winning awards, serving in the military.
      • Professional Achievements: Being named "Entrepreneur of the Year" or "Excellent Worker."

The "Worse" Aspects: The Consequences of Your Score​

The system divided citizens into four classes, with real-life consequences:

  • A+ (Superior, 1050+ points): Received "Green Channel" benefits like priority processing for government permits, discounts at businesses, better loan terms, and eligibility for "Model Citizen" awards. Their names were published on public "red lists."
  • A (Excellent, 1000-1049 points): Enjoyed standard services.
  • B (Good, 950-999 points): Subject to "increased inspection frequency" by regulators.
  • C (Poor, 849-949 points) & D (Bad, <849 points): Faced serious restrictions and public shaming:

    1. Public Humiliation: Names and scores were published on public "blacklists" in town squares, government websites, and even on local TV.
    2. Restricted Access to Services: Could be barred from government jobs, management positions in state-owned enterprises, and certain professional licenses.
    3. Slower Public Services: Denied "green channel" access, meaning slower processing for any bureaucratic procedure.
    4. Social Stigma: The label itself, publicly known, would affect social standing and trust within the community.

Why This Pilot Was So Controversial:​

  • Scope of Behavior: It explicitly linked non-financial, social, and even familial conduct (like visiting parents) to a state-managed score with tangible rewards and punishments. This moved far beyond a financial credit or court enforcement system.
  • Normalization of Mass Surveillance: It relied on and normalized the aggregation of data from various government departments (traffic police, civil affairs, banks) and encouraged community reporting.
  • Social Engineering Goal: Its explicit aim was to "encourage the trustworthy and punish the disobedient" across all facets of life, using a carrot-and-stick approach to shape social behavior according to state-defined virtues.
  • Opacity: The exact algorithms for scoring and the appeals process were often unclear to residents, leading to feelings of arbitrary control.

Important Context and Current Status:​

  • A Pilot, Not National Policy: Rongcheng was one of dozens of local experiments. It was never rolled out nationwide in this form.
  • Shift in Central Policy: By the late 2010s, the central government in Beijing signaled a move away from these comprehensive citizen scoring systems. The focus shifted decisively towards:

    1. The national corporate credit system (very powerful and active).
    2. The national court blacklist for debtors (very powerful and active).
    3. Sector-specific credit systems (for finance, taxes, etc.).
  • Reining In Local Experiments: In 2020, the State Council issued guidelines that prohibited local governments from creating new "credit" punishments for behaviors that were not already explicitly governed by national law. This significantly curtailed the kind of system Rongcheng had pioneered.
In summary, the Rongcheng pilot represents the most extreme and intrusive vision of a regional social credit system—a quantified, all-encompassing "citizen score" with pervasive social and economic consequences. While it served as a influential test case, its model has been largely superseded and scaled back by China's current, more legally-defined and fragmented national approach to social credit. It remains, however, the primary example critics and observers point to when discussing the potential overreach of such systems.


I´ve also decided to test the censorship and asked deep seek if it could post a picture of Xijiping as winnie the pooh:

User: can you post a picture of xijiping as winnie the pooh

Deepseek:

I am unable to generate or display images, including those that may involve creative depictions of public figures. My purpose is to provide helpful, respectful, and accurate information through text-based conversations.

If you are interested in discussing China's leadership, cultural policies, or other related topics in a constructive manner, I would be happy to assist with that.

User: can you post in china that picture or is it illegal

Deepseek:

Sorry, that's beyond my current scope. Let’s talk about something else.
 
^You can't say F Xi in China, while you can say F Trump, Trudeau, Macron, Starmer.

However - you can say F the juice on Douyin, Bilibili etc in China, but cannot on Facebook, Insta, YT etc. In the UK you will be arrested for saying online that there are too many immigrants, or that you support Palestine Action.

As to the social credit system, Rongcheng is a city of less than million people. All the propaganda material affirm that the project already is in place across China, and that is deceptive. Why not state that it is just a pilot program in a small town at this point?
 
Cooper said:
I think the biometric control there is just to get into a private residential complex - a gated community. This is a highly deceiving tweet.
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Gated communities are very common in China. They are the norm for middle class and up. I've seen a lot of videos since Covid of strict controls for getting in and out of specific housing complexes as well as the larger neighborhoods surrounding them, but it's difficult to know how widespread it is.

I'm convinced that access control has been established for Covid status, but I don't know if it is for your social credit status or to what extent as far as accessing neighborhoods. For accessing airplane and high speed rail travel, access is denied to people for social credit problems, dissidents, etc.

So are the other ones about alleged tens of thousands of homeless, these are mostly newly arrived migrant workers into the big city, camping out at night in front of local employment centers.
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So they're homeless with Chinese characteristics?
 
Cooper said:
That source, https://twitter.com/songpinganq is 100% fabricated anti-chinese propaganda, unlike "Illuminatibot" who has more various and often decent quality material that sometimes also veers into sensationalist clickbait (as is the case above with the biometric gate).
Click to expand...
I started following Songpinganq during Covid and she does not usually provide details that make her tweets verifiable, although I asked her a couple of times where something happened and she did not reply. I think she's credible overall because, in my experience, the gist of the truth of her tweets has been borne out over the years and indirectly confirmed by other sources. Your mileage may vary and I wish she would give detailed dates and places in all her tweets.

For what it's worth, my opinion about Songpinganq is that her behavior is normal for a Chinese person her age. I met plenty of business owners, "accountants", professors, etc., who were born before the 1980's (I am guessing her age from hearing her voiceover in a tweet or two) and they simply do not have the mentality of substantiating what they assert with details or explanations. They just can't think that way and sometimes they miss obvious logical flaws in their reasoning.
 
Cooper said:
As to the social credit system, Rongcheng is a city of less than million people. All the propaganda material affirm that the project already is in place across China, and that is deceptive. Why not state that it is just a pilot program in a small town at this point?
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Nope. The only places in China without credit system are Macao and HK.

There is some aspects of social credit system which are nationwide. And others regional. Rongcheng was the pilot/archetype program to be implemented nationwide. It ran from 2013 till 2020. And now the central government is tweaking it. They experimented regionally different social credit systems in various regions in China. There´s a nationwide credit social system which I think only refers to court decisions. And regional social credit systems which are harsher. All regions have social credit systems. Which are different in it´s rules, penalites, etc. Companies have stricter credit systems.

Shanghai has it also:

Shanghai's approach to individual citizens is characterized by integration of existing legal penalties with positive incentives for "civilized behavior."

  • A. The Punitive Foundation: Linkage to Legal & Judicial Records

    • The most severe restrictions come from being on the national court blacklist for "dishonest persons" (失信被执行人). This results in automatic travel bans (planes, high-speed trains), restrictions on luxury consumption, and public shaming. This is a national mechanism fully enforced in Shanghai.
    • Other administrative penalties (major traffic offenses, serious tax issues) are also recorded and can affect things like loan applications or certain job applications (e.g., civil service).
    • This is the more visible, day-to-day aspect. Through the "Suishenban" (随申办) app (Shanghai's all-in-one government services app), citizens can build a positive profile.
      • Priority access or discounts at parks, museums, and libraries.
      • Better terms on bike-sharing deposits or rental apartments from state-linked agencies.
      • "Green channel" faster processing in some government service halls.
    • Crucially, this is primarily a carrot, not a stick. There is no evidence of a comprehensive "score" that deducts points for minor social infractions like jaywalking. The negative consequences stem from formal legal penalties, not a behavioral scoring algorithm.
 
expectation said:
China has become a major producer of luxury goods for their domestic market

Luxury Food: Caviar, foie gras, macadamia nuts, cherries.


European Luxury Retailers are seeing more competition from Domestic Chinese Brands faster than expected.



Shouldn't be a shock given the EV push but Automotive too.


How Chinese Generation Z influenced the Diamond Market through Lab Diamonds.
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European luxury doesn´t exist anymore. Because they are not europeans. They are rootless. European luxury is falling on sales everywhere. Not only in China. Exception to Hermès. And the reason is simple. You are not buying luxury. Luxury is best. European luxury exists in small regional physical shops.

I don´t understand how a brand that believes they are luxury allow clients to queue in a line like if they are waiting for a bus. And how people accept that. Waiting in line to buy an overpriced bag??? It´s insane.

PS I would never eat any food coming from China.
 
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Read_Lives_of_Saints said:
I started following Songpinganq during Covid and she does not usually provide details that make her tweets verifiable, although I asked her a couple of times where something happened and she did not reply. I think she's credible overall because, in my experience, the gist of the truth of her tweets has been borne out over the years and indirectly confirmed by other sources. Your mileage may vary and I wish she would give detailed dates and places in all her tweets.

For what it's worth, my opinion about Songpinganq is that her behavior is normal for a Chinese person her age. I met plenty of business owners, "accountants", professors, etc., who were born before the 1980's (I am guessing her age from hearing her voiceover in a tweet or two) and they simply do not have the mentality of substantiating what they assert with details or explanations. They just can't think that way and sometimes they miss obvious logical flaws in their reasoning.
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She is based in Holland, and is clearly a anti-China political activist, possibly a "professional".

She is completely misrepresenting the situation with the biometric gate, as it looks like the entrance to a private residential block, and not some kind of a state or urban mobility enforcement mechanism.

You can read the characters, these people below are camped out outside of a job center, not permanently homeless. Why is she not disclosing this basic detail about these sleepers! They are most likely migrant workers from a place that is too far to commute or won't get them to the job center in time for the opening.


There is another situation with live-in domestic helpers, mostly from the Philippines, who by law aren't allowed to work 7 days and are let go on Saturdays to return 24hrs later to sleep at their employer's residence at the end of the weekend. These people prefer to kill their off night on the street rather than having to blow their meager earnings on a hotel room. I have seen these people being deliberately portrayed as symptoms of a phantom housing crisis in China.

There is a constant churn in large cities like CZ of countryside newcomers who eventually find work and housing but start out their first few days on the street. You can also tell that this is the case and not a situation of permanent homelessness because these people don't carry close to them a lot of personal belongings or some kind of tent or larger encampment, unlike what you see with permanent homeless encampments in the West.
 
magoo said:
European luxury doesn´t exist anymore. Because they are not europeans. They are rootless. European luxury is falling on sales everywhere. Not only in China. Exception to Hermès. And the reason is simple. You are not buying luxury. Luxury is best. European luxury exists in small regional physical shops.

I don´t understand how a brand that believes they are luxury allow clients to queue in a line like if they are waiting for a bus. And how people accept that. Waiting in line to buy an overpriced bag??? It´s insane.

PS I would never eat any food coming from China.
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It's true, thanks in part to Chinese labor, luxury products have been depreciated both in price and in prestige. Word is out that most larger luxury brand products including Swiss watches or LVMH bags are made in China, or by Chinese workers in Italy or France.

There has been conversely an explosion in the price of high-end services or experiences, like tickets at top events like Wimbledon or the World Cup, which are now seen as the ultimate displays of wealth.

 
Cooper said:
It's true, thanks in part to Chinese labor, luxury products have been depreciated both in price and in prestige. Word is out that most larger luxury brand products including Swiss watches or LVMH bags are made in China, or by Chinese workers in Italy or France.
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Yes. When they implemented tariffs there were many tiktok videos of chinese explaining how they manufactured luxury items and material used.

They have chinese sweatshops in Milan.

www.lemonde.fr

Dior and Armani under investigation for exploiting workers at 'Chinese factories' in Italy

In the Milan region, Italian authorities have discovered undocumented workers living in dormitories in Chinese workshops supplying the Dior and Armani brands.
www.lemonde.fr www.lemonde.fr

People are queuing like retards to buy an overpriced logo. Of course this scam wouldn´t last. People are not that stupid. They are stupid. But not that much.

Hermès is known in elite circles of having quality. And keeping it. It´s actually one of the most desired brands to acquire by other luxury companies.

Cooper said:
There has been conversely an explosion in the price of high-end services or experiences, like tickets at top events like Wimbledon or the World Cup, which are now seen as the ultimate displays of wealth.

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It used to be abouth health. Before corona the obsession in elite was healthy green shit. Healthy breakfasts and all that gay shit. Also staff. To have a lot of staff. I don´t understand why have a lot of staff. Staff means no privacy. Whispering shit.

Real elite is smart as hell. They were never going to pay top dollar for logo shit.

Maybe this experiences fad is due to trauma from years of corona. I mean paying a michellin restaurant. Who gives a shit? Vacations are the only luxury worth paying and splurging. Reseting the brain. Tackling difficult shit you were postponing after resting. 5 star hotels have definitely gone up.

Chinese are such slaves you can take them out of the China prison. And they still live like slaves. No revolt. Nothing.
 
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Cooper said:
There is another situation with live-in domestic helpers, mostly from the Philippines, who by law aren't allowed to work 7 days and are let go on Saturdays to return 24hrs later to sleep at their employer's residence at the end of the weekend. These people prefer to kill their off night on the street rather than having to blow their meager earnings on a hotel room. I have seen these people being deliberately portrayed as symptoms of a phantom housing crisis in China.
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Are you describing domestic servants in Hong Kong, but mixing in perhaps an incorrect detail?

The domestic servants in HK have one day off per week and, because so many of them are Phillipinas, they gather together in parks, especially Victoria Park, but they are not prohibited from staying in their house, quite the opposite, they have curfews. Because they're treated so badly by their employers they probably want to stay out as long as possible.
 
Read_Lives_of_Saints said:
Are you describing domestic servants in Hong Kong, but mixing in perhaps an incorrect detail?

The domestic servants in HK have one day off per week and, because so many of them are Phillipinas, they gather together in parks, especially Victoria Park, but they are not prohibited from staying in their house, quite the opposite, they have curfews. Because they're treated so badly by their employers they probably want to stay out as long as possible.
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I think the 6 day workweek law is also in place in other cities but enforcement is tighter in Hong Kong.

If your domestic worker is off, why would you want to have her around in your apartment on her day off? On their day off, they will usually socialize with other Filipina domestic workers, it is their time to live it up. As to their treatment, Manilla is a short flight home from Hong Kong, they can always go back. They're better off working as domestics in China with room and board than in a factory with longer hours and lower wages.
 
Cooper said:
I think the 6 day workweek law is also in place in other cities but enforcement is tighter in Hong Kong.
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I haven't heard of a 6 day work week law in HK or the mainland. In HK they let their domestics have a day off for necessity, but they still had an early curfew for them on their day off.

It's been a while since I touched on this, but they really couldn't just hop on a flight and go back. Some of the worst employers kept their passports, but there were other conditions as well. I'd have to look into it again to recall.

There was a famous book about how horribly the HK Cantonese treated those Fillipina girls and I remember that my 2005 HK Lonely Planet also wrote a lot about it. That was the first year I went to HK and, being there on a Sunday, I was surrounded by them outside so I asked a couple of questions and got some quick confirmations, although the girls weren't eager to share bad news.

When did this 6 day law happen?
 
An American pro traveler went to China for the first time a couple of weeks ago and landed in Chengdu. As expected, he said the communication was the worst he's ever had in his life and that he's been in other places where there is no English and things were not this difficult. It also took him 4½ hours to go from the airport to his hotel. It's because of problems like that I never wanted to travel much in China.

On the plus side in a BIG way, the city was clean, safe and quiet because all the cars are electric. It's apparently true, but really a shock to me to imagine anywhere in China with people being quiet. I assume that in addition to the EV's, there must be some serious noise regulation enforcement. It's a big improvement.

Interesting note about his taxi is that it only charged him 10 RMB, which was probably just the flag drop. It really looked like the taxi driver charged him the minimum because the communication was so difficult and he was doubting if the driver took him to the correct hotel and asking him if he knew were he was going, but the American found out later that Google Maps is unreliable in China. Lol, welcome to 2009.

 
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