Testosterone Replacement Therapy

[the beast1]

Thanks to some unforeseen expenses, I have had to delay my laser eye surgery this year. Since I am owed a Christmas present, I have decided to proceed with a long-term goal of mine which was to commit to TRT.

I had blood work done about 3 years ago that showed my test levels somewhere in the mid 400 ng/Dl . I recall the dingus on the phone telling me my levels were "normal" and didn't give me the number until I said, " the range is anywhere from 300 to 1000 bud".

This number was after decent eating, zinc, magnesium, and consistent working out. Though I have two young kids and a stressful job.

Knowing all that, I'd like to hear from others their experiences on this. Thanks against everyone.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I got on at 29. It was definately not needed to do that early but there were some extenuating circumstances beyond physical/blood work at that time.... I had free test in the 700s at 28 and 500s at 29 (there can be a significant variance depending on drinking/exercise ect from when you take your blood work)

That said... when I got out of the Marines.... I had a lot of other issues aside from physical ones which were sleep/life stress from post divorce, civilian adjustment, career concerns ect.... All....mental issues that the VA wanted to hook me up with drugs for. Being an big gun owner and not wanting to take psychotropic medicines, I got on TRT from a clinic.

Since then... Im glad I made that decision. I go to a really really good doctor who literally wrote the book on male fertility... but I personally didnt have any issues knocking my old lady up while still on testosterone.

But if you get on... its for life.... so you better get used to shots 1x or 2x a week.....Its not really a big deal, and I dont mind giving myself a shot... but the Mrs was a medical professional before we got married and she quit working.... so she gives me all my shots since we got tother. makes it easy.

It doesnt fix everything. but it doest turn you into an a hole either.... it just magnifies your base level emotions.... so if you're already high strung/intense like me... it will amplify it.... but you will feel much much better than you're feeling now... I'm sure of that.

 

[N°6]

I followed the RVF version of this thread. At that stage of my life, the benefits of TRT were gym gains, muscle gain, fat loss and this would produce more opportunity with more women.

What are the benefits of TRT for the married and single man trying to live a Christian life? An ideal Christian life would be treating one's body as a temple of the Holy Spirit (little or no alcohol, avoidance of a poor diet), not joining oneself with harlots, avoiding laziness, among many other ways.

So a Christian life should increase testosterone (as long as one avoids Christian praise music and taking on a born-again virgin and her bastards after she decides to settle and get real for Jesus).

(I don't claim to be living a Christian life but more a Pontius Pilate one in that I have washed my hands off much of civil, financial and social secular life.)

 

[Tippy]

I heard there are negative side effects to this so I'm not sure about it. Doesn't it stop your body naturally producing TRT when you go off it...meaning you have to be on it for life?

 

[scary_robot_music]

I followed the RVF version of this thread. At that stage of my life, the benefits of TRT were gym gains, muscle gain, fat loss and this would produce more opportunity with more women.

What are the benefits of TRT for the married and single man trying to live a Christian life? An ideal Christian life would be treating one's body as a temple of the Holy Spirit (little or no alcohol, avoidance of a poor diet), not joining oneself with harlots, avoiding laziness, among many other ways.

So a Christian life should increase testosterone (as long as one avoids Christian praise music and taking on a born-again virgin and her bastards after she decides to settle and get real for Jesus).

(I don't claim to be living a Christian life but more a Pontius Pilate one in that I have washed my hands off much of civil, financial and social secular life.)

My understanding is that there is a very, very small percentage of men who actually "need" TRT on some level, but it's very, very few. Like @Get2choppaaa said above, it's a lifelong commitment to the drugs. Just that is enough for me to not even consider it and should be enough for most guys, but there's the allure of legal steroids. I know it's not technically steroids, but let's be honest, that's how most guys look at it. In the vast majority of cases, whatever symptoms of low T are ailing you, you could fix them through long term effort and discipline, but injecting T is much easier. Putting on noticeable muscle and getting those big power lifting numbers to impress other guys is also far easier with the injections.

To be fair, I'm over six feet (182cm) tall with a naturally lean, athletic build so it's probably easier for me to be happy with what I can achieve naturally through lifting weights and a reasonably healthy diet. If I had different genetics it would probably be a lot harder for me to resist the temptation to lean on the drugs.

I'm not sure about what you said about a Christian life increasing testosterone. Maybe, maybe not. At my wife's Catholic parish there sure are a lot of men who appear to have pretty low T. They also seem generally more righteous and devout than I am, not that that's a very high bar. Don't get me wrong, it seems intuitive that as a man you should try to be as masculine as possible and that's all connected very closely to testosterone, but maybe on some level guys like those of us on this forum put too much importance on it out of pride. I don't know.

 

[the beast1]

I followed the RVF version of this thread. At that stage of my life, the benefits of TRT were gym gains, muscle gain, fat loss and this would produce more opportunity with more women.

What are the benefits of TRT for the married and single man trying to live a Christian life? An ideal Christian life would be treating one's body as a temple of the Holy Spirit (little or no alcohol, avoidance of a poor diet), not joining oneself with harlots, avoiding laziness, among many other ways.

So a Christian life should increase testosterone (as long as one avoids Christian praise music and taking on a born-again virgin and her bastards after she decides to settle and get real for Jesus).

(I don't claim to be living a Christian life but more a Pontius Pilate one in that I have washed my hands off much of civil, financial and social secular life.)

Honestly, it's probably not needed for me but the effects of aging have been noticeable and yes, the allure of legal steroids is there. I'd like to have the test levels of a teen so I can get the benefits at the gym to then filter out elsewhere. I'm not gaming nor looking to pursue that. I just want that edge back.

I know it is possible to come off of TRT with some post cycle HCG therapy. What that involves, I'm not aware.

 

[TruthTeller]

My understanding is that there is a very, very small percentage of men who actually "need" TRT on some level, but it's very, very few. Like @Get2choppaaa said above, it's a lifelong commitment to the drugs.

Yes and no. There are restart protocols that some endocrinologists have used. Usually these involve very high levels of hcg. Whether they are successful or not depends on the persons level of impairment prior to beginning TRT and other factors like age, diet, etc. Going off at age 50 hoping for natural production is very different than say stopping at 35.

Just that is enough for me to not even consider it and should be enough for most guys, but there's the allure of legal steroids. I know it's not technically steroids, but let's be honest, that's how most guys look at it.

The rationalization here is that ‘it’s just a TRT dose, not cycling’…but even smaller TRT doses due to usually using esters with longer half lives produce a steroid like effect because the blood level of test / free test usually exceeds natural levels. On certain days they are probably at or above 1200 ng/dl which even 99% of high T 18 year olds do not have.

In the vast majority of cases, whatever symptoms of low T are ailing you, you could fix them through long term effort and discipline, but injecting T is much easier. Putting on noticeable muscle and getting those big power lifting numbers to impress other guys is also far easier with the injections.

You will get ripped, jacked, or shredded depending on your diet and lifting routine.

To be fair, I'm over six feet (182cm) tall with a naturally lean, athletic build so it's probably easier for me to be happy with what I can achieve naturally through lifting weights and a reasonably healthy diet. If I had different genetics it would probably be a lot harder for me to resist the temptation to lean on the drugs.

I'm not sure about what you said about a Christian life increasing testosterone. Maybe, maybe not. At my wife's Catholic parish there sure are a lot of men who appear to have pretty low T. They also seem generally more righteous and devout than I am, not that that's a very high bar.

I once took a few injections of T and I’m not sure how it would have helped my spiritual life. I already had an issue with lust and fornication and during those few weeks, I could think of nothing else.

God made us a certain way for a reason. We have high T and high energy earlier in life to take risks, set up a foundation, procreate, etc. as we age we usually are not as risk taking, and the lust diminished this is not a bad thing.

Don't get me wrong, it seems intuitive that as a man you should try to be as masculine as possible and that's all connected very closely to testosterone, but maybe on some level guys like those of us on this forum put too much importance on it out of pride. I don't know.

I think so.

Also remember that many of these androgenic compounds affect other hormones in the body. There’s a reason that some treatments for prostate cancer are based on essentially hormone therapy and shutting off androgenic production because the cancer cells can’t grow anymore. When taking higher doses of TRT or other chemicals it may have negative effects long term on prostate health.

 

[scary_robot_music]

I once took a few injections of T and I’m not sure how it would have helped my spiritual life. I already had an issue with lust and fornication and during those few weeks, I could think of nothing else.

God made us a certain way for a reason. We have high T and high energy earlier in life to take risks, set up a foundation, procreate, etc. as we age we usually are not as risk taking, and the lust diminished this is not a bad thing.

This particular point about lust is another good point. I hear some guys who've been on TRT say what you're saying, some say it's an exaggeration or not true at all. Regardless, it's yet another thing I'd rather not risk. I'm already, let's say, not exactly 100% pure in my thoughts as far as chastity goes. If there's any chance TRT would make it worse, that's yet another good reason to avoid it.

All your points were good and you obviously know more about the topic than I do. I just approach it from a high level where I don't have any real indication at all that I have any testosterone problems so although I could probably get on TRT, I'd be doing it mainly out of vanity, and I'm already sufficiently vain.

 

[Thomas More]

I followed the RVF version of this thread. At that stage of my life, the benefits of TRT were gym gains, muscle gain, fat loss and this would produce more opportunity with more women.

What are the benefits of TRT for the married and single man trying to live a Christian life? An ideal Christian life would be treating one's body as a temple of the Holy Spirit (little or no alcohol, avoidance of a poor diet), not joining oneself with harlots, avoiding laziness, among many other ways.

So a Christian life should increase testosterone (as long as one avoids Christian praise music and taking on a born-again virgin and her bastards after she decides to settle and get real for Jesus).

(I don't claim to be living a Christian life but more a Pontius Pilate one in that I have washed my hands off much of civil, financial and social secular life.)

Christian praise music lowers T? I didn't know that! I'm getting ready to go to sing traditional hymns this morning so I'm safe, but I'm still a bit surprised to see this.

I agree marrying a born again virgin with bastard children can bring it down. Also, I like your points about treating the body as a temple.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I followed the RVF version of this thread. At that stage of my life, the benefits of TRT were gym gains, muscle gain, fat loss and this would produce more opportunity with more women.

What are the benefits of TRT for the married and single man trying to live a Christian life? An ideal Christian life would be treating one's body as a temple of the Holy Spirit (little or no alcohol, avoidance of a poor diet), not joining oneself with harlots, avoiding laziness, among many other ways.

So a Christian life should increase testosterone (as long as one avoids Christian praise music and taking on a born-again virgin and her bastards after she decides to settle and get real for Jesus).

(I don't claim to be living a Christian life but more a Pontius Pilate one in that I have washed my hands off much of civil, financial and social secular life.)

Yeah for me it was pretty much a medical decision based off of trying to go down path of least harm at a stage in my life where I was pretty messed up physically and mentally.

I mean If you're blasting 1000 mg (a whole bottle) of test a week... You're probably not doing other salvific things... But if it's something that's keeping you in a healthy range and you're also not turning into a raging a hole.... That's a little different.

You gotta do regular blood work and keep an eye on your health regardless.

I'm obviously biased... I like being a meat head, this helps me with that while also helping me with other things like my sleep quality, energy, mental sharpness. You do legitimately feel great when your test levels are at around 1000.

I've come off to let everything come down and reset for blood work/health before... Its not fun and I'm on the drug for life. Some people that's a scary idea. For me I'm not really.

I don't think people should do it if they aren't very keenly aware of all the risks and don't have maturity or education on what they are doing.

 

[ginsu]

i would be very carefull because it works differently for everyone, just because one person gets to the high range on a modest dose injecting only a few times a week and feels great doesnt mean you will. You never know what it does to your body unless you try it.

Hopefully you can feel great from the start but in the worst case you will have more issues than you do now and spend a long time trying all kinds of combinations of different things before you start to feel as you should or maybe you never quite get there at all.

There is no guarantee what it will do and you have to be willing to accept that risk when you go down this path.

You will be your own experimental subject.

 

[Maddox]

I heard there are negative side effects to this so I'm not sure about it. Doesn't it stop your body naturally producing TRT when you go off it...meaning you have to be on it for life?

Not only that, it has some very real risks to your heart. That's why I don't wanna take it. And that's for every form it comes in whether you're shooting it with a needle, applying an ointment, or taking it orally.

 

[FrancisK]

Coming from someone who at this point is probably on TRT for life, do whatever you can to avoid it. Get in shape, use natural supplements for whatever they're worth, fix your diet, fix yourself mentally and test again.

It's not fun having to stick yourself with a needle twice a week for the rest of your life to feel like a man and deal with estrogen being out whack, weird blood markers and all that other stuff that goes with it. If you have done everything you can and you're still testing low then by all means do what you have to do low T sucks and you don't have to live like that. But it's not something to take lightly, it's a lifelong commitment and that high you get from it will eventually wear off and it will be nothing but a burden to maintain yourself.

 

[san26]

I have to whole heartedly disagree with all the people saying it is a lifelong commitment. In my own experience of taking TRT for 6 years straight and stopping cold turkey due to religious/spiritual reasons, I recovered just fine to my previous natural levels based on blood work, but it does take time. And, I have looked at studies showing the same. That is a myth propagated on the internet, because it is very difficult those first few months off. I believe with enough time, patience, and prayer, levels will almost always recover to a sufficient range, it's all psychosomatic.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I have to whole heartedly disagree with all the people saying it is a lifelong commitment. In my own experience of taking TRT for 6 years straight and stopping cold turkey due to religious/spiritual reasons, I recovered just fine to my previous natural levels based on blood work, but it does take time. And, I have looked at studies showing the same. That is a myth propagated on the internet, because it is very difficult those first few months off. I believe with enough time, patience, and prayer, levels will almost always recover to a sufficient range, it's all psychosomatic.

What age were you. When you started. What age after? What were pre and post levels.

Sufficient levels vs optimal levels (which is the reason you would do it) are two different things.

It's possible to recover to "a healthy range" but there is not a credible study I've found that says you'll recover to you pre-steroid use levels...

 

[san26]

What age were you. When you started. What age after? What were pre and post levels.

Sufficient levels vs optimal levels (which is the reason you would do it) are two different things.

It's possible to recover to "a healthy range" but there is not a credible study I've found that says you'll recover to you pre-steroid use levels...

Started at Age 23, stopped at Age 29, Pre TRT I was at anywhere from 70-250 ng/dl, that is the reason I started since it was so low, but it was due to lifestyle factors, there was nothing wrong with my endocrine function, I should have never taken it in the first place and addressed my many poor lifestyle choices, post 6 months TRT , I was at 494 ng/dl

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Started at Age 23, stopped at Age 29, Pre TRT I was at anywhere from 70-250 ng/dl, that is the reason I started since it was so low, but it was due to lifestyle factors, there was nothing wrong with my endocrine function, post 6 months TRT , I was at 494 ng/dl

Im glad you feel better... And happy your healthy...

A couple points I'd say for others to caution from your anecdotal experience not being the norm.



Age is a huge factor and chronicity of use: 23 to 29 is different than 35to 45 and trying to see what happens.
494 is still not that high for someone age 29/30.
Did your regiment include HCG? If not... You could have been started with hcg monotherapy first most likely...but your doctor might not have known about it.

Also I still have seen no studies suggesting the above to be the norm... It is an outlier for sure...

 

[san26]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S147148922200145X

"When the pre-exposure gonadal function was normal, there was a 90% chance of having a normal total testosterone concentration after 3 months of recovery and a 100% chance at the end of follow-up. These data suggest that full recovery of endogenous testosterone production takes place for the majority of androgen abusers. "

" In the majority of men, there is full recovery of testicular function after cessation of abuse. Recovery of endocrine parameters is faster than for spermatogenesis and PCT has not been shown to be beneficial."

There you go , one of many, and mind you this is for steroid abusers, who we all know are chronic liars, narcissists and manipulative, who could have possibly still been dabbling with the stuff, so to have this good of result, says a lot, even the author mentioned that fact. I am no outlier , I am the norm

 

[Get2choppaaa]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S147148922200145X

"When the pre-exposure gonadal function was normal, there was a 90% chance of having a normal total testosterone concentration after 3 months of recovery and a 100% chance at the end of follow-up. These data suggest that full recovery of endogenous testosterone production takes place for the majority of androgen abusers. "

" In the majority of men, there is full recovery of testicular function after cessation of abuse. Recovery of endocrine parameters is faster than for spermatogenesis and PCT has not been shown to be beneficial."

There you go , one of many, and mind you this is for steroid abusers, who we all know are chronic liars, narcissists and manipulative, who could have possibly still been dabbling with the stuff, so to have this good of result, says a lot, even the author mentioned that fact. And PCT is a myth, you are in the dark ages, I am no outlier, I am the norm

I'm not a neophyte in reading studies...I also go to the world's best male fertility and andrology doctor... So excuse me...but I'm not living in the dark ages... I've also sired many children some post steroid use in my youth and some while on a trt dose in my 30s... So I've got a little bit of knowledge here....likely more than you with 1 study which contradicts itself when you read it regarding your assertion that everyone recovers..

In your haste to play gotcha you didn't include what I specifically said was the issue, which is chronicity of use and age.... is the reason most are on it permanently.

quote
These data suggest that full recovery of endogenous testosterone production takes place for the majority of androgen abusers. In contrast to this observation, 37 individuals had signs of abnormal gonadal function at baseline. To be included in the study, subjects were not allowed to use androgens in the 3 months prior to inclusion, which was verified by interview when subjects were screened for eligibility. Of these 37 individuals, 35 had used androgens in the past, indicating past androgen abuse as a determinant of gonadal insufficiency. These subjects had a significantly higher cumulative past exposure to androgens, having abused androgens twice as long in their lifetime compared to the group with normal baseline gonadal function. Also, the pattern of gonadal dysfunction, i.e. hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, found in this subgroup was concordant with previous androgen use. In addition, a subgroup of nine subjects failed to achieve normal total testosterone concentrations at the end of follow-up, without signs of recovery.

End quote

again...what's not included here is:
age of users
compounds used
chronicity of use
Any actually numbers on "baseline" or "normal"

if you're gonna tell me normal is 494 for a 22 year old male, I'm gonna tell you I must have been a freak of mature at 760 at age 28 in the Marine Corps with very little sleep, frequent boozing, and a horrible divorce. Or how about 560 hung over at 29?

The issue with Normal is that it includes dying people and sick people in those ranges too.

IS it possible to recover....yes. absolutely... But if you'll go back to my original point you'll see your situation is rare...and in fact the preponderance of studies, self reporting data, and clinical data suggest otherwise.

Again... Glad you're healthy. But your anecdotal experience is not something I would recommend others to assume to be the norm or likelyhood.

 

[FrancisK]

I have to whole heartedly disagree with all the people saying it is a lifelong commitment. In my own experience of taking TRT for 6 years straight and stopping cold turkey due to religious/spiritual reasons, I recovered just fine to my previous natural levels based on blood work, but it does take time. And, I have looked at studies showing the same. That is a myth propagated on the internet, because it is very difficult those first few months off. I believe with enough time, patience, and prayer, levels will almost always recover to a sufficient range, it's all psychosomatic.

It's not an Internet myth brother in fact I think the Internet myths go the other way on it, its dangerous to go around telling guys that it's not big deal to shoot up test. Don't get me wrong it's not going to kill you or something dumb like that but I've seen first hand backed up by bloodwork before and well after multiple guys who did not recover. You're lucky you recovered but it doesn't mean everyone would recover, sufficient is not the same as full recovery.

I am unfortunately the go to in my circle for this stuff and I've helped more guys than I can name with it. The first thing I tell all of them to do is get blood work, then I do everything I can to dissuade them from doing it. If they still persistly strive for it, which they always do because they read all about it online about how great it is or listen to some idiot who wants them in the same boat as him, then I help them with it. There have been multiple guys I know personally who decided to come off after some amount of time, most guys regret it, so they then suffer through it and do blood work again months down the road....very few recover to anything close of their previous levels. Age has to do with that, it's an unknown variable how much your natural levels will come down say 5 years from now but the exogenous hormone use absolutely also played a role in the significant drop in natural levels.