Ortho Lounge

[Giordano Bruno]

I don't know about Darwin, but perhaps the Patriarch simply means that evolution is true for other animals but not humans. Thus, it has no religious import.

Well, if you look at evolution as God designing animals deliberately to evolve and then go extinct with him controlling their mutations and the environment, it's a little like him playing keys on a piano.

In that sense, you could view natural selection as fundamentally within the purview of God for the purpose of showing us a beautiful and lasting natural creation, and not a concept or doctrine we should follow ourselves.

Think of forest fires are a necessary affair, yet revolutions are not, because God calls us not to rebel, but reform. We don't need to be like nature, because we can follow God.

 

[Lawrence87]

I don't know exactly what Patriarch Kyrill has said, I would have to know Russian to fully understand, but whatever our personal opinions on the matter, the church doesn't have a dogmatic position on evolution. Whether it ought to or not is up for debate. There are issues with evolution and Christianity that I believe ought to be resolved dogmatically, but at the end of the day we do need to be wary about shouting "heretic!" in this instance. We can disagree. I think he's wrong, assuming that everything is translated accurately. That's fine, Patriarchs can be wrong. We needn't get into a tizzy and start thinking that the entire Russian church has become corrupted by this. I know that nobody here has expressed such views, but, being the internet I am certain people will start going to this extreme. Patriarch Kyrill appears to be wrong on this, so far as I'm able to tell. The Russian Orthodox church is still Orthodox.

 

[analyst_green]

I don't know exactly what Patriarch Kyrill has said, I would have to know Russian to fully understand, but whatever our personal opinions on the matter, the church doesn't have a dogmatic position on evolution. Whether it ought to or not is up for debate. There are issues with evolution and Christianity that I believe ought to be resolved dogmatically, but at the end of the day we do need to be wary about shouting "heretic!" in this instance. We can disagree. I think he's wrong, assuming that everything is translated accurately. That's fine, Patriarchs can be wrong. We needn't get into a tizzy and start thinking that the entire Russian church has become corrupted by this. I know that nobody here has expressed such views, but, being the internet I am certain people will start going to this extreme. Patriarch Kyrill appears to be wrong on this, so far as I'm able to tell. The Russian Orthodox church is still Orthodox.

There is a note on creation in the Orthodox Study Bible which reads as follows:

Regarding questions about the scientific accuracy of the Genesis account of creation, and about various viewpoints concerning evolution, the Orthodox Church has not dogmatized any particular view. What is dogmatically proclaimed is that the One Triune God created everything that exists, and that man was created in a unique way and is alone made in the image and likeness of God (Gn 1:26, 27). The Church Fathers also consistently affirm that each species of the animate creation came into existence instantaneously, at the command of God, with its seed within itself.

So if I'm understanding correctly, they are saying that while there is no dogmatic position, we should follow what the Church Fathers believed and thus the Darwinian theory of evolution is not to be trusted. At least the monkeys becoming humans kind AKA macroevolution, which alleges that one kind of species can evolve into another and we all ultimately started as a simple unicellular bacteria.

There is nothing in our faith that opposes microevolution, the differentiation within a species over time as an adaptation to changing conditions. And whether creation occurred progressively over millions of years or just 7000 years ago is up for debate. It's hard to know what exactly the Patriarch is referring to.

 

[Giordano Bruno]

And whether creation occurred progressively over millions of years or just 7000 years ago is up for debate. It's hard to know what exactly the Patriarch is referring to.

There's no reason God couldn't have created the Universe exactly as it is 7000 years ago.

The question becomes. Are the fossils that imply evolution a sign from God that he has plans for a greater creation, or a hoax from the devil to trick us into disbelief.

I want to know.

 

[Samseau]

There is a note on creation in the Orthodox Study Bible which reads as follows:

So if I'm understanding correctly, they are saying that while there is no dogmatic position, we should follow what the Church Fathers believed and thus the Darwinian theory of evolution is not to be trusted. At least the monkeys becoming humans kind AKA macroevolution, which alleges that one kind of species can evolve into another and we all ultimately started as a simple unicellular bacteria.

There is nothing in our faith that opposes microevolution, the differentiation within a species over time as an adaptation to changing conditions. And whether creation occurred progressively over millions of years or just 7000 years ago is up for debate. It's hard to know what exactly the Patriarch is referring to.

It's also possible that earth was created instantaneously, 7000 years ago, and was also created with billions of years of history.

You might think, "But that's a contradiction," yet all things are possible for God. There are no contradictions for God. No scientific theory can contradict God or the words of the Holy Bible.

It is entirely possible for an all-mighty being to create a young Earth with billions of years of history. That it is beyond our understanding or comprehension is not God's problem.

 

[KomnenAl]

There is another possibility, that all dating methods are flawed. If one is flawed so are the others because they use each other for reference.
They are based on the assumptions of the modern "scientists" and the various frauds of the academic establishments of the 20th century.
Why should we believe anything that comes out of the mouths of these fools?

 

[KomnenAl]

Man, you are so hateful. You have no idea what you're assuming about a stranger on the internet.

Congrats on becoming the first member I'll be ignoring.

So... now this apostate has changed his tag to "Agnostic".
He went from Orthodox (in name only), to Catholic for a few months (apparently becoming a leader there didn't work out) and now his avatar is the cover of a book with the title "How Jesus became God, the exaltation of a Jewish preacher from Galilee".

A cautionary tail for all who expect secular rewards from God.

 

[Seng Hock]

I disagree with calling TrainedLogosmotion an apostate. I think the situation is more complex than that.

Based on his track record, it can be inferred that he was a great Orthodox Christian. He repented from his old life and produced works that are helpful for many people, such as the monk-mode celibacy thread and posts about NoFap and whore addiction. He is almost always at the forefront when it comes to fighting lusts and addictions.

He was reluctant to spell out his problems in the open, but he most likely has some deep problem in life that forces him to take drastic action.

Another brother in Christ who has fallen is jaguarcat. Based on his post history, it looks like he is disappointed in God for allowing his nation to be overrun by dark-skinned newcomers. Despite being a lifelong Orthodox Christian, it looks like enough is enough for him.

I think instead of calling them apostate, we should pay respect to them for holding out this long.

 

[Giordano Bruno]

I think instead of calling them apostate, we should pay respect to them for holding out this long.

If God calls us to love our enemy, what should we do for our stumbling brethren?

 

[Lawrence87]

If God calls us to love our enemy, what should we do for our stumbling brethren?

Some people are going to walk away from Christ. The parable of the sower tells us as much.

If we mock and deride them, probably we should ask who has actually abandoned Christ here?

In truth all we can do is pray. Maybe even go a day without food for them if we really care. And don't tell anyone about it.

Even saying a word of instruction or trying to correct them often is fruitless and usually comes from the wrong place. We point the finger at them and say "you're doing wrong" but what we are really doing is pointing to ourselves and saying "I'm doing right". If we were really Christian we would cry for their soul in private and pray and fast for them without telling a single person. But who among us is really Christian?

 

[KulturedKaveman]

Some food for thought - Catholicism’s size does make it very impersonal IMHO. A lot of people go to mass and bounce. It’s more difficult to connect with your fellow travelers. Orthodoxy feels close to Catholicism but it also has an element that feels like the Elks / Rotary club

 

[Lawrence87]

I was reading this morning that Saint Anthony the Great said that people in his day were given easier struggles by God because they were weaker than previous generations.

It got me thinking about how much easier by comparison our struggles must be today. This is a great antidote to any kind of spiritual pride that might develop. Its like if you're playing a video game and you think its on the hardest difficulty setting and you're doing pretty good, but then you go to check the settings to discover you were on the easiest setting. Not only that be how many times do we fail even on easy mode? We truly are nothing. And thank God for His mercy in not giving us more than we can bear

 

[Josephus]

Some food for thought - Catholicism’s size does make it very impersonal IMHO. A lot of people go to mass and bounce. It’s more difficult to connect with your fellow travelers. Orthodoxy feels close to Catholicism but it also has an element that feels like the Elks / Rotary club

Can you expand on this? I’ve been a catechumen for a while and a potential convert from Catholicism. I expected the same, but I haven’t integrated into the Orthodox community. I think one of the reasons is that my church has mostly Arabic parishioners and they seem to just talk with each other mostly in Arabic. I do like the coffee hour which Catholicism lacks, so I understand what you mean by impersonal. But I just haven’t got past the stage of mundane chat. I’m also a single guy so I think they look at me skeptically (could be my own perception)

I usually don’t have issues integrating or socializing since my job requires me to talk and train groups I’ve never met often. Usually in the range of 5 to 15 people, so I don’t mind being in front of an audience or just connecting with new people.

 

[Seng Hock]

Some food for thought - Catholicism’s size does make it very impersonal IMHO. A lot of people go to mass and bounce. It’s more difficult to connect with your fellow travelers. Orthodoxy feels close to Catholicism but it also has an element that feels like the Elks / Rotary club

I agree with this take. In the Catholic Church, most people, when attending Mass, can't wait for it to end (although Novus Ordo Masses are already spectacularly short), and when the Mass ends, they immediately run to the parking lot to go to nearby restaurants, go shopping, or go home. Moreover, most Catholic priests are aloof, and it is difficult to get hold of them. The bureaucracy is strangling. Most Catholic priests also do not know their own parishioners due to being aloof and having too few priests compared to the number of parishioners.

Compare this to Orthodox or Protestant churches, which are the opposite. Although Orthodox liturgies and Protestant services are long, most people are not in a hurry to grab some food or go home. When the liturgy or service ends, people stay for coffee hour, to mingle, and to discuss Christian teachings. Most Orthodox priests or Protestant pastors are also not as stand-offish as Catholic priests. In my parish, for example, the priest keeps an open-door policy, and the parishioners are free to contact him. The priest also tends to know their flock better, such as knowing where the parishioners live and their professions.

 

[KulturedKaveman]

Can you expand on this? I’ve been a catechumen for a while and a potential convert from Catholicism. I expected the same, but I haven’t integrated into the Orthodox community. I think one of the reasons is that my church has mostly Arabic parishioners and they seem to just talk with each other mostly in Arabic.

Oh a mostly ethnic church. To get involved with those kind of communities you need to be a bit more forward of a person. You need to be a bit more bold and go to them if that makes any sense and generally they’re friendly and welcoming. You’ll have to make the first move on them not them on you. Like integrating into any society, like what they like and get into what they’re into. There’s also the option of finding a more convert heavy parish.

As for Orthodoxy being more like Elks or Rotary club, in Catholicism as Doraemon said, the church isn’t a social event and the parishioners don’t really know or support each other. They have their own cliques they want to hang out with and can’t wait for the Divine Liturgy to end so they can run off and do whatever. Church is something you go to. Vs in Orthodoxy we have a parish directory and I could call any of those guys and they’d probably talk to me, while in Catholicism you’d get a “uhhh. And you are?” If someone needs employment or some sort of help or favor, we pass recommendations and act as an extended family and genuinely are concerned and lookout for each other. Catholicism always felt more like a McDonalds. You pull up to get your Eucharist. Vs an orthodox parish feels more like an actual community of believers. On one hand, Catholicisms structure is awesome because the church can have liturgies around the clock in airports, hospitals, on the street, military bases etc. the Catholic Clergy is entirely replaceable so they can have a guy on site in a moments notice. If orthodoxy’s Divine Liturgy was everywhere at all times I’d probably go twice a week. I wonder how much of my observation is a function of size? We’re an extreme minority in America but everyone and their dog is Catholic. Even our President. I wonder if in Russia, Greece, and Egypt it feels more like Catholicism in America.

 

[Josephus]

Oh a mostly ethnic church. To get involved with those kind of communities you need to be a bit more forward of a person. You need to be a bit more bold and go to them if that makes any sense and generally they’re friendly and welcoming. You’ll have to make the first move on them not them on you. Like integrating into any society, like what they like and get into what they’re into. There’s also the option of finding a more convert heavy parish.

I’ll try that. Locally I found this Arab church, Romanian, and Greek. I try to avoid the Greek Ortho because from what I’ve seen it doesn’t seem serious.

As for Orthodoxy being more like Elks or Rotary club, in Catholicism as Doraemon said, the church isn’t a social event and the parishioners don’t really know or support each other. They have their own cliques they want to hang out with and can’t wait for the Divine Liturgy to end so they can run off and do whatever. Church is something you go to.

Yeah felt this my entire life. Catholicism just was that serious in the US and became a joke. Nobody ever cared or bothered to reach out from the church.

Vs in Orthodoxy we have a parish directory

Like a phone book? Is this in every parish or do you officially have to be Orthodox? Haven’t heard of it in mine.

and I could call any of those guys and they’d probably talk to me, while in Catholicism you’d get a “uhhh. And you are?” If someone needs employment or some sort of help or favor, we pass recommendations and act as an extended family and genuinely are concerned and lookout for each other.

How long have you been Orthodox? Are you a convert or cradle?

Catholicism always felt more like a McDonalds. You pull up to get your Eucharist. Vs an orthodox parish feels more like an actual community of believers.

This is a great way of putting it.

On one hand, Catholicisms structure is awesome because the church can have liturgies around the clock in airports, hospitals, on the street, military bases etc. the Catholic Clergy is entirely replaceable so they can have a guy on site in a moments notice. If orthodoxy’s Divine Liturgy was everywhere at all times I’d probably go twice a week. I wonder how much of my observation is a function of size? We’re an extreme minority in America but everyone and their dog is Catholic. Even our President. I wonder if in Russia, Greece, and Egypt it feels more like Catholicism in America.

 

[san26]

I am traveling and visiting a different ROCOR church right now. The Priest there, had us do confession but it was a generic confession only, get down on your knees and he says the same prayer for each person. Normally at any Orthodox Church I go to , its personal , and I tell my specific sins to the Priest, and then he absolves me. Has anyone ever experienced this before?

 

[Rodion]

I am traveling and visiting a different ROCOR church right now. The Priest there, had us do confession but it was a generic confession only, get down on your knees and he says the same prayer for each person. Normally at any Orthodox Church I go to , its personal , and I tell my specific sins to the Priest, and then he absolves me. Has anyone ever experienced this before?

I have heard of this, but it’s very rare and I think I remember hearing from a Bishop that it is not canonical and shouldn’t be done. I cannot find a source or video for this (it may have been in person, I cannot recall), so I could be mistaken.

People talk about how St John of Kronstadt would do something similar, due to the multitude of people flocking to him, but they would cry out their sins with tears of repentance before all, he didn’t just read prayers of absolution. This is also what happened in the very early church, but it stopped after the legalisation of Christianity when it became unfeasible.

But you shouldn’t be troubled by it, it’s not anything bad, but it doesn’t replace private confession. I think the concern is that there is a slippery slope toward the removal of private confession.

 

[Josephus]

I am traveling and visiting a different ROCOR church right now. The Priest there, had us do confession but it was a generic confession only, get down on your knees and he says the same prayer for each person. Normally at any Orthodox Church I go to , its personal , and I tell my specific sins to the Priest, and then he absolves me. Has anyone ever experienced this before?

I’m a catechumen so haven’t done a formal Orthodox confession, but many Catholic ones.

This seems like a McDonald’s drive thru type of confession and I wouldn’t like it. I’d rather have a personal one with a priest who knows me and my issues and can give guidance.

 

[san26]

I’m a catechumen so haven’t done a formal Orthodox confession, but many Catholic ones.

This seems like a McDonald’s drive thru type of confession and I wouldn’t like it. I’d rather have a personal one with a priest who knows me and my issues and can give guidance.

Yes I don't like it. If I talked to the priest he would probably allow me to confess to him personally.