Ortho Lounge

St. Ignatius Brianchaninov writes in The Field that if we don’t have direct access to illumined elders and living Saints, we must do our best to soak in and live by the teachings of the Holy Fathers. That primarily means a life of prayer, fasting, repentance, charity, attendance at the Divine Liturgy and reception of the Eucharist, and other basic but foundational practices.

If anything, complex theology and debates tend to push many people farther from these things and I have never seen a Saint recommend filling one’s mind with more information as a remedy for these kinds of feelings.
 
BrotherAugustine said:
St. Ignatius Brianchaninov writes in The Field that if we don’t have direct access to illumined elders and living Saints, we must do our best to soak in and live by the teachings of the Holy Fathers. That primarily means a life of prayer, fasting, repentance, charity, attendance at the Divine Liturgy and reception of the Eucharist, and other basic but foundational practices.

If anything, complex theology and debates tend to push many people farther from these things and I have never seen a Saint recommend filling one’s mind with more information as a remedy for these kinds of feelings.
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Good point.

Being able to recite Orthodox theology and having an opinion is easy. Living an Orthodox life is hard. Oftentimes, the former detracts from the latter
 
Does anybody else think that Orthodoxy is the hard mode of Christianity?

Let's use video game as an example. Imagine when first playing a video game, you first went through the tutorial and then managed to master it in the normal difficulty. But normal doesn't cut it anymore and you want more challenges, not only that by using normal difficulty it gives false confidence in your skills and you wanted to develop your skills further. So you increased the difficulty and even better played it online with real human players. But you find yourself absolutely unprepared for the difficulty spikes and get wrecked by the competition. You keep trying to be better but over and over you still continue to lose that playing the game isn't fun anymore. At the same time you know quitting doesn't solve the problem, so you are stuck between hard decisions.

It illustrates my problem with Orthodoxy. I first became a catechumen and eventually baptized into an Orthodox Church because I wanted to follow Christ in the one true church. But repeatedly I failed in following the teachings and rules set upon by the church. My last failure is during the apostle's fast, I failed every single day and did not fast at all. At the end of The Apostle's Fast, during the divine liturgy I confessed to the priest of my failure to fast.

I've been thinking of joining a "less hardcore" church like the Catholic or Protestant churches. But I feel like it is betraying Christ for leaving the Church that He invited me in, and also self-betrayal because I forgot my own reasons why I became a member of the Orthodox church in the first place.
 
Doraemon said:
Does anybody else think that Orthodoxy is the hard mode of Christianity?

Let's use video game as an example. Imagine when first playing a video game, you first went through the tutorial and then managed to master it in the normal difficulty. But normal doesn't cut it anymore and you want more challenges, not only that by using normal difficulty it gives false confidence in your skills and you wanted to develop your skills further. So you increased the difficulty and even better played it online with real human players. But you find yourself absolutely unprepared for the difficulty spikes and get wrecked by the competition. You keep trying to be better but over and over you still continue to lose that playing the game isn't fun anymore. At the same time you know quitting doesn't solve the problem, so you are stuck between hard decisions.

It illustrates my problem with Orthodoxy. I first became a catechumen and eventually baptized into an Orthodox Church because I wanted to follow Christ in the one true church. But repeatedly I failed in following the teachings and rules set upon by the church. My last failure is during the apostle's fast, I failed every single day and did not fast at all. At the end of The Apostle's Fast, during the divine liturgy I confessed to the priest of my failure to fast.

I've been thinking of joining a "less hardcore" church like the Catholic or Protestant churches. But I feel like it is betraying Christ for leaving the Church that He invited me in, and also self-betrayal because I forgot my own reasons why I became a member of the Orthodox church in the first place.
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The Orthodox Church has been called the Marine Corps of Christianity. None of us live up to God’s expectations. But we get up, confess, go to Communion, and keep fighting the good fight. Tell me if the “easier” modes of Christianity will train you to conform you heart and mind to Christ’s will, or if they just accommodate our fallen nature. The way of Christ or the way of the world?
 
Doraemon said:
Does anybody else think that Orthodoxy is the hard mode of Christianity?

Let's use video game as an example. Imagine when first playing a video game, you first went through the tutorial and then managed to master it in the normal difficulty. But normal doesn't cut it anymore and you want more challenges, not only that by using normal difficulty it gives false confidence in your skills and you wanted to develop your skills further. So you increased the difficulty and even better played it online with real human players. But you find yourself absolutely unprepared for the difficulty spikes and get wrecked by the competition. You keep trying to be better but over and over you still continue to lose that playing the game isn't fun anymore. At the same time you know quitting doesn't solve the problem, so you are stuck between hard decisions.

It illustrates my problem with Orthodoxy. I first became a catechumen and eventually baptized into an Orthodox Church because I wanted to follow Christ in the one true church. But repeatedly I failed in following the teachings and rules set upon by the church. My last failure is during the apostle's fast, I failed every single day and did not fast at all. At the end of The Apostle's Fast, during the divine liturgy I confessed to the priest of my failure to fast.

I've been thinking of joining a "less hardcore" church like the Catholic or Protestant churches. But I feel like it is betraying Christ for leaving the Church that He invited me in, and also self-betrayal because I forgot my own reasons why I became a member of the Orthodox church in the first place.
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Part of the importance of fasting is to realise our reliance on God. We can't even manage very well to give up certain foods for a while, let alone anything else. A lot of the standards in Orthodoxy seem almost unobtainable, especially if we see them as burdensome.

I remember being told something very important. That a big part of Orthodoxy, is merely knowing the standard expected of us. We know we shouldn't eat meat on a fasting day for example. When we do it, we know we shouldn't have done it. We go, we confess it, we pick ourselves up again. It's about maintaining humility. That does not mean we should just 'go easy' on ourselves, thinking we cannot do it. But we get some measure of our weakness before God which is very beneficial for us.

Roman Catholics have responded to the difficulty of the standards by lowering them. But that is misguided. You don't seek to lower the standards, you lower your pride, and ego, and you go to confession and you try again. Orthodoxy is essentially about striving for a high standard, and repeatedly failing, with the absolute key thing being that we get up again.

If you want it easy, this is essentially just pride, that you want to be in an arena where you succeed instead of repeatedly fail. Swallow your pride and keep on the path. The whole thing is about developing humility.
 
Christos_NIKA said:
The Orthodox Church has been called the Marine Corps of Christianity. None of us live up to God’s expectations. But we get up, confess, go to Communion, and keep fighting the good fight. Tell me if the “easier” modes of Christianity will train you to conform you heart and mind to Christ’s will, or if they just accommodate our fallen nature. The way of Christ or the way of the world?
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Lawrence87 said:
Roman Catholics have responded to the difficulty of the standards by lowering them. But that is misguided. You don't seek to lower the standards, you lower your pride, and ego, and you go to confession and you try again. Orthodoxy is essentially about striving for a high standard, and repeatedly failing, with the absolute key thing being that we get up again.

If you want it easy, this is essentially just pride, that you want to be in an arena where you succeed instead of repeatedly fail. Swallow your pride and keep on the path. The whole thing is about developing humility.
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Yeah that is part of my dilemma. Catholic and Protestant church have less strict requirement in prayer rules, fasting, confessions, etc. I thought that how can I fail to fast if it is not even required of me? In Protestant church there is no confession, so I do not have to bear the shame of confessing repeated sins to the priest. I see in the Catholic church there are confessions, but most parishioners do not bother to confess sins, and before receiving communion they do not have to confess first, unlike in the Orthodox church. But at the same time surrendering because it is too hard is not an option.

It's been a tough journey since I was baptized in the Orthodox church. Most people in my parish told me that in one way or another they experience multiple falling down and getting back up situation since becoming an Orthodox Christian.
 
Doraemon said:
Yeah that is part of my dilemma. Catholic and Protestant church have less strict requirement in prayer rules, fasting, confessions, etc. I thought that how can I fail to fast if it is not even required of me? In Protestant church there is no confession, so I do not have to bear the shame of confessing repeated sins to the priest. I see in the Catholic church there are confessions, but most parishioners do not bother to confess sins, and before receiving communion they do not have to confess first, unlike in the Orthodox church. But at the same time surrendering because it is too hard is not an option.

It's been a tough journey since I was baptized in the Orthodox church. Most people in my parish told me that in one way or another they experience multiple falling down and getting back up situation since becoming an Orthodox Christian.
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Your priest is the witness...the "accountability partner" in confession, to borrow a protestant term. He is not there to judge you, but to speak forgiveness, help you stand up again, and give you guidance to keep fighting. I have confessed some pretty heinous sins in my life, and to an Archbishop, no less. Did he judge me or make me feel like a piece of garbage? No, he helped me and spoke the blessing of forgiveness. The burden that is lifted off your soul during sincere confession and the forgiveness, is profound and is not found elsewhere. I hope you take this to heart and do not leave. It will only damage your soul trying to walk the wide path.
 
Doraemon said:
Yeah that is part of my dilemma. Catholic and Protestant church have less strict requirement in prayer rules, fasting, confessions, etc. I thought that how can I fail to fast if it is not even required of me? In Protestant church there is no confession, so I do not have to bear the shame of confessing repeated sins to the priest. I see in the Catholic church there are confessions, but most parishioners do not bother to confess sins, and before receiving communion they do not have to confess first, unlike in the Orthodox church. But at the same time surrendering because it is too hard is not an option.

It's been a tough journey since I was baptized in the Orthodox church. Most people in my parish told me that in one way or another they experience multiple falling down and getting back up situation since becoming an Orthodox Christian.
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I had another thought that I wanted to share with you. Please don't take this the wrong way, but from what you stated here, it seems that as a catechumen to the Orthodox Church you failed to grasp the key aspect for what Orthodoxy is. Our goal is theosis, through regular participation in fasting, attendance, Confession, and Communion. St. Paul talks about finishing the race and staying true to your faith (2 Tim. 4:7). When you took your vows to be Orthodox, you promised to not abandon it, no matter how inconvenient or hard. No one in the Orthodox Church is going to judge you or condemn you for failing, but they will help you stand up and keep fighting. I do hear vitriol from various protestant preachers of "fire and brimstone", when they are not preaching "God wants you to be rich" prosperity blasphemy. Be careful what you think is "easier". Satan will tickle your ears with lies and then stab you in the back. God bless you in your struggles. Go to confession and discuss with your priest. We are just strangers on a forum.
 
Samseau said:
How did it end up going?
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I now went to the parish and the Church was beautiful. The liturgy as well, as they also had well-trained cantors. I could keep up fairly easily despite it being mostly in Arabic. Like many ethnic parishes, they repeated the most important prayers and some of the chants in German.

Almost zero head coverings for the women though, and overall a little lax in terms of how the women dressed, but nothing too scandalous. They did have a well-ordered coffee table after the liturgy, which my old parish didn't and I guess that's nice for getting to know the other parishioners.

I was a little nervous about how to address the priest, as he's also the Antiochian bishop and I blanked on how they are addressed ("Sayyidna", by the way), but he was really nice and gave me a warm welcome.

They don't do confession in terms of a regular hour where one can show up, but I had already heard that outside of Serbian and Romanian parishes, it's usually not as frequent. I'm still unsure about how to deal with that, because I'm very weak and I'd like to prepare for Communion a best as I can. I'll ask the man the next chance I get.
 
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Christos_NIKA said:
I had another thought that I wanted to share with you. Please don't take this the wrong way, but from what you stated here, it seems that as a catechumen to the Orthodox Church you failed to grasp the key aspect for what Orthodoxy is. Our goal is theosis, through regular participation in fasting, attendance, Confession, and Communion. St. Paul talks about finishing the race and staying true to your faith (2 Tim. 4:7). When you took your vows to be Orthodox, you promised to not abandon it, no matter how inconvenient or hard. No one in the Orthodox Church is going to judge you or condemn you for failing, but they will help you stand up and keep fighting. I do hear vitriol from various protestant preachers of "fire and brimstone", when they are not preaching "God wants you to be rich" prosperity blasphemy. Be careful what you think is "easier". Satan will tickle your ears with lies and then stab you in the back. God bless you in your struggles. Go to confession and discuss with your priest. We are just strangers on a forum.
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Haha thanks don't worry I'm not going to surrender and quit being an Orthodox Christian. Despite the very hard difficulty, I understand that quitting is not an option.

One of the things that makes Orthodoxy hard for me is the fact that it successfully develops my conscience. After being baptized in the Church I cannot cheat God anymore and hide my immoral acts since God sees all.

For example when I was not a Christian yet, I rationalize my porn/fap addictions by thinking that I'm admiring and respecting women by doing that. When I went to "spa" to get jerked off I used to thought that I'm giving charity to women. On Sunday I did not have to go to church and just relax at home enjoying cartoons and films.

After being baptized I do not have the luxury of basking in addictions like that. When I relapsed in porn/fap I must bear the shame of confessing the same sins almost every weeks to my priest. When I purposefully missed going to church on Sunday to watch cartoons, I feel guilty and it feels like a mistake not going to church. The Lord really means it when He said "And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple."
 
Raskolnikov said:
I now went to the parish and the Church was beautiful. The liturgy as well, as they also had well-trained cantors. I could keep up fairly easily despite it being mostly in Arabic. Like many ethnic parishes, they repeated the most important prayers and some of the chants in German.

Almost zero head coverings for the women though, and overall a little lax in terms of how the women dressed, but nothing too scandalous. They did have a well-ordered coffee table after the liturgy, which my old parish didn't and I guess that's nice for getting to know the other parishioners.

I was a little nervous about how to address the priest, as he's also the Antiochian bishop and I blanked on how they are addressed ("Sayyidna", by the way), but he was really nice and gave me a warm welcome.

They don't do confession in terms of a regular hour where one can show up, but I had already heard that outside of Serbian and Romanian parishes, it's usually not as frequent. I'm still unsure about how to deal with that, because I'm very weak and I'd like to prepare for Communion a best as I can. I'll ask the man the next chance I get.
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Thanks be to Christ! Arab speaking parishes are a dying breed nowadays. Most Antiochian parishes are predominantly English where I'm at. Enjoy the Arab language while it lasts because it will not be around by the end the century. By 2050 I expect most of them to be gone, not that this is a bad thing. Language is after-all driven by God and English offers tremendous potential.

Head coverings... yes, matches my experience as well. I don't consider it serious, if it is a sin it is easily forgivable. Good for you for staying for coffee hour, I'm sure they were delighted to have you.

A Bishop is a powerful point of access, there are probably only 30 Antiochian Bishops worldwide, these guys may not look it but they control an immense amount of resources and influence. And yet they take their faith above everything and are humble to the extreme. I'm sure Sayidna will be happy to schedule a confession with you!
 
Samseau said:
Arab speaking parishes are a dying breed nowadays.
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They're not in Germany because we've had such a high influx from Syria and Lebanon. Around every twentieth Syrian national lives in Germany right now. Most Rum-Orthodox parishes here are Arab-speaking. Most German language parishes, of which there are few, are ROCOR, on the other hand.

Orthodoxy is way more ethnic here than in America, I think. I have never even heard the liturgy in German, although translations exist. Many parishes do certain prayers and chants in the national language, but there is hardly any Orthodox parish that isn't 80-90% cradle (+ethnic immigrant).
 
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Didn't realize you were in Germany. In that case, they are just at the beginning of the assimilation process. Could take them a generation or two to become Germanized.

If you can get past the language barrier, Antiochian churches are among the finest in the world. Oldest Church that has survived against all odds. Great to hear of your field report brother!
 
Raskolnikov said:
They're not in Germany because we've had such a high influx from Syria and Lebanon. Around every twentieth Syrian national lives in Germany right now. Most Rum-Orthodox parishes here are Arab-speaking. Most German language parishes, of which there are few, are ROCOR, on the other hand.

Orthodoxy is way more ethnic here than in America, I think. I have never even heard the liturgy in German, although translations exist. Many parishes do certain prayers and chants in the national language, but there is hardly any Orthodox parish that isn't 80-90% cradle (+ethnic immigrant).
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IIRC, there are parishes in Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, and some smaller towns, where the liturgy is all in German.
 
The commenters unwittingly prove the statement. This is a perfect example of how the people of this world will condemn those who reject the antichrist and his utopia.
 
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To be frank, I think if a lot of new Eastern Orthodox converts, content creators, and western parishes in general did not idolize the Moscow Patriarchate as some sort of a Rome of Eastern Orthodoxy, then they wouldn't really be much of a visible target. Eastern Orthodoxy is neither a political entity nor a "Russian religion".

Can Patriarch Kirill of Moscow be influenced by Putin? What do I know. But at the same time, there shouldn't be this idolization of that Patriarch as being the central or most visible figure of Eastern Orthodoxy. For all intents and purposes, he's the Bishop/leader of an autocephalous national Church. Just as it is not difficult for some to imagine or even state with certainty that Bartholomew I of Constantinople is collaborating with the west, it is well within the realm of possibility that Kirill of Moscow could do the same within his political sphere. Again, whether he does that or not, I don't know. But him being Russian or in Russia does not automatically exempt him from anything.

I, personally, like Kirill's image and steadfastness. But then I'm also not Eastern Orthodox, so it doesn't matter.
 
Narekatsi said:
To be frank, I think if a lot of new Eastern Orthodox converts, content creators, and western parishes in general did not idolize the Moscow Patriarchate as some sort of a Rome of Eastern Orthodoxy, then they wouldn't really be much of a visible target. Eastern Orthodoxy is neither a political entity nor a "Russian religion".

Can Patriarch Kirill of Moscow be influenced by Putin? What do I know. But at the same time, there shouldn't be this idolization of that Patriarch as being the central or most visible figure of Eastern Orthodoxy. For all intents and purposes, he's the Bishop/leader of an autocephalous national Church. Just as it is not difficult for some to imagine or even state with certainty that Bartholomew I of Constantinople is collaborating with the west, it is well within the realm of possibility that Kirill of Moscow could do the same within his political sphere. Again, whether he does that or not, I don't know. But him being Russian or in Russia does not automatically exempt him from anything.

I, personally, like Kirill's image and steadfastness. But then I'm also not Eastern Orthodox, so it doesn't matter.
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I think this is pretty good take. I'm Antiochian and at a converts church... But I've been to Greek churches with amazing clergy and Romanian and so on and so forth.

I've met some amazing bishops, like Bishop Isiah whom was a Korean war Marine vet and spoke about how amazing the Constitution and America and democracy can be for people, we had Met Saba here this year on Holy Saturday for the baptisms, and I've been fortunate that we have Bishops attend our church regularly due to its size, growth, and wonderful clergy and icons.

But my point is that all Metropolitans and Bishop's are at the end of the day, just men.... They have to exist in the world also and do what they think is best for their flock and the Church.

The Ecumenical Patriarch is a great example. He's surrounded by Turks and his only support is the CIA in propping him up, so he does what he has to to placate them. So on and so forth.
 
I have been thinking about Angels a lot lately. I think us Orthodox folk can become a bit caught up in thinking about demons, which is only natural since they tend to cause harm. But we should never forget the Holy Angels are with us in this battle, fighting alongside us, suggesting good thoughts to us. Isn't that amazing?

Thank God for sending His Holy Angels to be with us in the Spiritual war.
 
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