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TrainedLogosmotion

TrainedLogosmotion

Agnostic
Heritage
I'm considering converting back to Catholicism.

Reasons in a nutshell: non-English services/immigrant clubs (Or Spanish where it should be offered where I am), lack of congregants/younger folks in general, similar levels of corruption and hypocrisy (BIG TIME, especially the Greeks), lack of funding/available options locally and worldwide, etc. These aren't the only reasons.

I mean I could go on and on and argue back and forth for days but at the end of it all, whatever you guys point out as negatives about Catholics the same can be said for Ortho. And I know most on here are Ortho so this is a bubble.

Catholics take the most heat because it's the largest denomination worldwide. I'm really just sick of the bullshit.

I'm not interested in having a semantic or logical debate about all this. This is a matter of the heart and intuition.

Jesus said things very simply in ways that children could understand them.

When we die, we will see what the ultimate Truth is because it's objectively out there.

I don't think Ortho is invalid or lacking Grace or anything like that. Of course many Ortho say this about Cath but it really depends on the Parish in my opinion. Not all Parishes are equal. Don't lump all Caths in with clown churches you see on Youtube. And remember there are Ortho clown churches too.

I would like to see what kind of advice I'm given regarding this to show me that I'm wrong. Just curious what yall are gonna a say.

"Go to Antiochian" or something like this. It's not that easy. English isn't the only issue here. I'm just tired of it.

In my heart of hearts I just don't see how Ortho is the correct path for me. I tried really hard for two years taking it very seriously as I should, because it is. I get it.

A lot just isn't right and I really cannot make it work personally. Something is off. Again, I'm not saying Ortho is wrong or anything like that. I'm just speaking from my own individual standpoint.

I know, it's probably me. I need to read some complex theology and turn my brain into a pretzel and become severely confused. Eventually I'll get it I'm sure! Maybe I should listen to some Jay Dyer comedy raps. /s

"There's only one church". Yeah, I get that. But it depends on what we mean by that and it gets very tricky. I see it as a spectrum.

I'm not looking to have a debate here. Moreso just venting and like I said curious what the responses will be.
 
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TrainedLogosmotion said:
I'm considering converting back to Catholicism.

Reasons in a nutshell: non-English services/immigrant clubs (Or Spanish where it should be offered where I am), lack of congregants/younger folks in general, similar levels of corruption and hypocrisy (BIG TIME, especially the Greeks), lack of funding/available options locally and worldwide, etc. These aren't the only reasons.
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I'd say do whatever seems natural but I'm only an inquirer. I'm still in an odd stage where I moved right next to a Catholic Church because I was in discernment to convert for years, then basically I couldn't assent to all the stuff (canons, infallibility, etc.... I also can't stand the Novus Ordo - so effeminate!!! ) so it didn't feel right converting to be essentially a cafeteria Catholic but on the based side. So, as of now I'm super far away from any Ortho church (because of the move) so I'm usually attending a Lutheran Church while getting to the Ortho one when I can because I want my family to have a regular church experience.

Been listening to the Ortho side for about as long as the Catholic side and I definitely find Ortho more consistent with reality but I have the same criticism you have. Our first experience with an Ortho Church was a Greek one and my wife and I came away from it thinking, well, that seemed like a regular Catholic Church where everyone didn't show up on time. Architecture was very modern and everyone there seemed like your everyday day Catholic.

Again, I'm only an inquirer so maybe I'm wrong on this and just nuts and will have to change my tag to "other christian" but my sense is that the foundation of the Church are the Saints with Christ as the rock/head. It's more of a grassroots/organic thing. All these modern councils and canons and catechisms and institutional structures are a bit beside the point. The various systemizations are basically a key aspect of our fall. I've been reading a lot of Paul Kingsnorth and really resonate with him.
 
General Orthodox Chat Lounge: Talk about day to day life, concerns, happenings, thoughts, musings, funny stories, etc.

If you want to talk about something that isn't big enough for it's own thread, yet pertains to Orthodoxy, then it belongs in here.
 
TrainedLogosmotion said:
I'm considering converting back to Catholicism.

Reasons in a nutshell: non-English services/immigrant clubs (Or Spanish where it should be offered where I am), lack of congregants/younger folks in general, similar levels of corruption and hypocrisy (BIG TIME, especially the Greeks), lack of funding/available options locally and worldwide, etc. These aren't the only reasons.

I mean I could go on and on and argue back and forth for days but at the end of it all, whatever you guys point out as negatives about Catholics the same can be said for Ortho. And I know most on here are Ortho so this is a bubble.

Catholics take the most heat because it's the largest denomination worldwide. I'm really just sick of the bullshit.

I'm not interested in having a semantic or logical debate about all this. This is a matter of the heart and intuition.

Jesus said things very simply in ways that children could understand them.

When we die, we will see what the ultimate Truth is because it's objectively out there.

I don't think Ortho is invalid or lacking Grace or anything like that. Of course many Ortho say this about Cath but it really depends on the Parish in my opinion. Not all Parishes are equal. Don't lump all Caths in with clown churches you see on Youtube. And remember there are Ortho clown churches too.

I would like to see what kind of advice I'm given regarding this to show me that I'm wrong. Just curious what yall are gonna a say.

"Go to Antiochian" or something like this. It's not that easy. English isn't the only issue here. I'm just tired of it.

In my heart of hearts I just don't see how Ortho is the correct path for me. I tried really hard for two years taking it very seriously as I should, because it is. I get it.

A lot just isn't right and I really cannot make it work personally. Something is off. Again, I'm not saying Ortho is wrong or anything like that. I'm just speaking from my own individual standpoint.

I know, it's probably me. I need to read some complex theology and turn my brain into a pretzel and become severely confused. Eventually I'll get it I'm sure! Maybe I should listen to some Jay Dyer comedy raps. /s

"There's only one church". Yeah, I get that. But it depends on what we mean by that and it gets very tricky. I see it as a spectrum.

I'm not looking to have a debate here. Moreso just venting and like I said curious what the responses will be.
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I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. Other than the Greek Church being corrupt, which is a shame but we all know, you can just attend an Antiochian, Russian, Serbian, etc. But since you say this doesn't convince you, because you're tired of "it," we are all left with the question: What is "it"?

I think it's obvious your problem isn't with Orthodoxy. If you go to any other church, you'll still be stuck with whatever "it" is. Your general dissatisfaction with life does not stem from the Church, yet you seek something to blame. In reality, you really need a good spiritual father who can help you work on your issues.

Sounds like you haven't found a good Church with a good Priest you can really connect with. You should try a small Antiochian Church with a smaller attendance, so the Priest has more time to help you.
 
TrainedLogosmotion said:
I'm considering converting back to Catholicism.

Reasons in a nutshell: non-English services/immigrant clubs (Or Spanish where it should be offered where I am), lack of congregants/younger folks in general, similar levels of corruption and hypocrisy (BIG TIME, especially the Greeks), lack of funding/available options locally and worldwide, etc. These aren't the only reasons.

I mean I could go on and on and argue back and forth for days but at the end of it all, whatever you guys point out as negatives about Catholics the same can be said for Ortho. And I know most on here are Ortho so this is a bubble.

Catholics take the most heat because it's the largest denomination worldwide. I'm really just sick of the bullshit.

I'm not interested in having a semantic or logical debate about all this. This is a matter of the heart and intuition.

Jesus said things very simply in ways that children could understand them.

When we die, we will see what the ultimate Truth is because it's objectively out there.

I don't think Ortho is invalid or lacking Grace or anything like that. Of course many Ortho say this about Cath but it really depends on the Parish in my opinion. Not all Parishes are equal. Don't lump all Caths in with clown churches you see on Youtube. And remember there are Ortho clown churches too.

I would like to see what kind of advice I'm given regarding this to show me that I'm wrong. Just curious what yall are gonna a say.

"Go to Antiochian" or something like this. It's not that easy. English isn't the only issue here. I'm just tired of it.

In my heart of hearts I just don't see how Ortho is the correct path for me. I tried really hard for two years taking it very seriously as I should, because it is. I get it.

A lot just isn't right and I really cannot make it work personally. Something is off. Again, I'm not saying Ortho is wrong or anything like that. I'm just speaking from my own individual standpoint.

I know, it's probably me. I need to read some complex theology and turn my brain into a pretzel and become severely confused. Eventually I'll get it I'm sure! Maybe I should listen to some Jay Dyer comedy raps. /s

"There's only one church". Yeah, I get that. But it depends on what we mean by that and it gets very tricky. I see it as a spectrum.

I'm not looking to have a debate here. Moreso just venting and like I said curious what the responses will be.
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It’s a difficult situation, I infer from your post that you live somewhere with a minimal Orthodox presence? The language barrier and hanging around in what can often be an old, converted building with people of a different ethnicity can be tough. If you lived in say, Moscow, then any advice would likely be different.

In such situations, rationalising away the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is much easier. So although I think an intellectually honest inquiry into the history of the schism etc is absolutely devastating for the catholics and requires tremendous cope (to be a catholic is to believe that Vatican 1 is how the church functioned throughout history, this is irrefutably false) I appreciate that this isn’t something that internet comments will solve most likely.

Ultimately for me, the theological and philosophical developments in the west that lead to the reformation, and then to liberalism and humanism have their roots in the schism between east and west. Therefore, in the increasingly nihilistic and post-truth western world, to find the ancient true Faith in a converted garage with a load of Romanians is an image I find profound, like the Divine Creator entering the world in a lowly cave.

The one thing I would recommend is reading an Akathist to a Saint or to the Mother of God and asking them to help your faith. Perhaps to the Apostle Thomas, who doubted until he himself touched the wounds of our Lord.
 
Rodion said:
It’s a difficult situation, I infer from your post that you live somewhere with a minimal Orthodox presence?
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According to his profile, he lives somewhere in Texas? Plenty of non-Greek Ortho Churches there.
 
At least in the US you have predominantly English-speaking Orthodox parishes. Here in western Europe 99%+ of the parishes have liturgy in the languages of the "old home country", which makes it exceeding difficult for converts to find their way in the door.

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force." - Matthew 11:12
 
I can't say much, as it seems your mind has been made up. I am saddened and sorry that you have been made to feel this way from the experiences you've had. I do agree that there are issues, but you'll find that anywhere you go. Perhaps the "newness" of the faith has worn off? Just a thought. Again, I'm sorry that your experiences and frustrations have brought you to this point. Regardless of what you decide to do, I would advise to continue in prayer.
 
Patience and prayer is the key. If God wants you to become Roman Catholic He won't mind you taking the time over your decision. It is an important matter after all.

Ask that the Lord make the way clear for you. I am not trying to say "its the demons" or anything like that, but I definitely get tempted at times with the "what on earth are you doing?" logismoi, especially at times when I am flagging and God's grace seems distant. We all have periods like this. I would suggest examining what it is that is causing you to feel like you do. My impression from your post is that it is not anything in regard to the truth of Orthodoxy, but rather it is worldly factors, things that make being Orthodox not the most comfortable choice for you such as language issues. But these things we sometimes have to bear in the pursuit of God.

If you are really convinced that Catholicism is the way then nothing anyone in the Orthodox section of this site says will change that. But I would urge patience and careful examination of your motivation etc. God bless you and grant you peace.
 
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Lawrence87 said:
Patience and prayer is the key. If God wants you to become Roman Catholic He won't mind you taking the time over your decision. It is an important matter after all.

Ask that the Lord make the way clear for you. I am not trying to say "its the demons" or anything like that, but I definitely get tempted at times with the "what on earth are you doing?" logismoi, especially at times when I am flagging and God's grace seems distant. We all have periods like this. I would suggest examining what it is that is causing you to feel like you do. My impression from your post is that it is not anything in regard to the truth of Orthodoxy, but rather it is worldly factors, things that make being Orthodox not the most comfortable choice for you such as language issues. But these things we sometimes have to bear in the pursuit of God.

If you are really convinced that Catholicism is the way then nothing anyone in the Orthodox section of this site will change that. But I would urge patience and careful examination of your motivation etc. God bless you and grant you peace.
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Why would God want him to leave His Church? The OP is focusing purely on externals, revealing a lack of Grace. Therefore he won't find a real difference wherever he goes. Sadly, some of the "conversions" we see lately are skin deep.
 
KomnenAl said:
Why would God want him to leave His Church? The OP is focusing purely on externals, revealing a lack of Grace. Therefore he won't find a real difference wherever he goes. Sadly, some of the "conversions" we see lately are skin deep.
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Of course I don't think God wants OP to cease being Orthodox, but me saying that probably counts for nothing from his perspective.

I trust God to make it clear to him, if OP is sincere. Hence why I'd say prayer and consideration is key rather than acting on impulse.
 
KomnenAl said:
Why would God want him to leave His Church? The OP is focusing purely on externals, revealing a lack of Grace. Therefore he won't find a real difference wherever he goes. Sadly, some of the "conversions" we see lately are skin deep.
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I think you are being unfair here, TrainedLogos gave a heartfelt confession. There is really no need to criticize or question his conviction.

Criticism on repentant people is not loving. Criticism on unrepentant people is loving. Those who seek an honest appraisal and share their heartfelt convictions do not deserve to be denigrated, we should instead help them.
 
@TrainedLogosmotion I can definitely understand if you're dissatisfied with your parish. In my travels, I've been to a couple of Orthodox parishes in America that were less than inspiring, and the same in Romania and Greece (in Georgia though I've loved basically every parish I've had the pleasure to take part in). On the other hand, in almost every single country I've traveled to I've found really amazing parishes as well. When you find a truly Orthodox parish with a genuinely caring and ascetic priest, you will never want to leave.

If you're in TX (as Samseau mentioned) I would highly recommend that you try out going to St. Paraskevi Monastery (1 hour NW of Houston), Holy Archangels Monastery (between San Antonio and Austin), and/or St. Joseph's Antiochian Orthodox Church (in Houston, entirely in English). Feel free to send me a message if you're not in TX and want any help brainstorming places near you to try out.

If you converted to Orthodoxy for the externals you mentioned, then I would encourage you to dig a bit deeper and to really decide on the actual doctrines being taught. Christ tells us that it is the Truth that will set us free. What this means is that lies enslave us.

Do you believe in the doctrines of Vatican 1? If not, you will never be a Roman Catholic (even if you call yourself such), because the Vatican 1 council anathematizes you if you don't believe its doctrines. If you haven't read Vatican 1, you absolutely should, and it's an easy read (only about 15 pages).

If you are totally unable to find a source of life-transforming grace near you, then I would encourage you to travel (even maybe a few hours each way) and maybe attend less often. 1x per month at a place where you can really grow is better than 4x+ per month at a place where you sense that grace is lacking.

One fundamental question I would encourage you to ask is this: when you read the lives of Orthodox saints, do you want to be like them? When you read the lives of recent Roman Catholic saints (post Vatican II), do you want to be like them? If you haven't read the lives of either saints, you should definitely try to do so regularly as a way to foster spiritual growth. I would recommend reading St. Paisios the Athonite's Spiritual Councils (Volume 1) as a starter from a recent saint.

If you are struggling, know that this is likely a good thing. There is rarely any genuine growth without struggle. Daily give thanks to God for what he has given you thus far (including the struggles) and pray for His help that He will show you the right path.

God bless you!
 
@TrainedLogosmotion :

I'm OO and not EO. I'm not a convert to OO, either - having never left the faith, I simply felt a calling to become more active and study the theology of the Church which I was baptized in. I preface my response this way to clarify that I do not have an interest to keep you within a specific jurisdiction. I'm merely posting my thoughts as another Christian brother.

With that said, I think what others may be missing is what originally motivated you to convert from Roman Catholicism to EO? I think you truly need to press rewind in your mind and understand why you pursued EO. Were you not active in RC? If so, why? Was it Roosh's publicly shared experiences? Was it the orthobro community online which gave you a sense of direction or belonging? Was it a sense of theological supremacy that you may have picked up online (as in RC bad, EO good, so I will go to the good Church)? What did you feel the first time you set foot inside an EO parish? Was it different from the feeling inside RC? And many more questions like this.

I'll give you my own example: Tourism aside, I have never set foot inside another Church for worship. The more active I've become within the OO Church, the more grace I've felt during services as well. There are worldly problems everywhere people are managing or gathering: people can be rude, unruly, seem dishonest and so forth, but I'm able to tune out all of it when inside the Church. It's truly due to grace as I'm otherwise incapable of tuning out of anything in any other capacity. I always feel the Holy Spirit comforting me inside the Church.

So based on your original post, I highly encourage you to contemplate in prayer for an honest understanding of why you chose to become EO. If it was simply politics or academic theology, then perhaps that is not the right reason to convert. I don't know exactly how you feel, but if your review of the past and your prayers lead you to the realization that you joined EO for the wrong reasons, then my personal advice may be to try and distance yourself from online content for some time, including EO content and perhaps even this forum. Then begin to approach your parish as a sanctuary and not a theological headquarter. Forgot councils, forget theological disputes, make this a matter between you and the Lord Jesus Christ. Try to also stop by your Church outside of service hours - step inside, spend a few minutes and pray in silence, maybe light a candle. Try to discover and feel the love and warmth of Christ for you.
 
Like I said, there are a ton of reasons. My problems ARE with Orthodoxy, and not just a single Parish. This absolutely is not a 'skin deep' situation. If I nitpick every single thing you'd understand my position a lot more but it would lead to a lot of defensive, messy interactions that I just can't handle right now.

In order to not scandalize anyone further, I'll just keep the reasons to myself. I don't think me venting all of my gripes on you guys is helpful. I don't want to denigrate and attack people or make this a combative thing. I apologize if my post appeared off the cuff and overly negative.

I appreciate all the responses. It would have been nice to hear from the Catholics and Protestants as well, but since this got transferred to the Ortho lounge, I'm only going to get one-sided responses lol. With that said, it was clearly the right decision as my post is basically just an angry vent so deserved to get pigeonholed.

As expected, I'll take ample time to think about this. Will talk to Priests. Will pray to the Holy Spirit. This isn't a snap decision. I'm not on a new mission to bash Orthodoxy or attempt to burn down what I built or throw it all away, and certainly not to deconvert others.

Whatever happens, it's all part of the journey. God's Providence is layed out in order over everything. Anything that happens is from Him. The trials. The lessons. When one door closes another opens, however, I realize I need to be careful in this unstable time in my life.

I've learned a lot and have become a better person. I've been a strong and active member where I was and contributed thoroughly and sincerely. You'll just have to take my word on that, which isn't easy, understandably, and I'm not surprised it would trigger doubt.

I will forever cherish and value the time I spent becoming Orthodox. God bless you all. Nothing but love for you.
 
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It seems like your mind is made up now. I believe you are making a mistake.

I am under no impression that my words have any weight in your decision, but as an Orthodox Christian it behoves me to say: Apostasy is extremely grave and serious. It is likely that you have already convinced yourself that it is not apostasy but it is. Orthodoxy is the true church and the Roman Catholic church is apostate and has spiralled further and further into heresy since the schism. You are making a serious error.

Forgive me for saying that. It might make you angry or whatever. I am not here to argue those points I am saying it from the heart as a brother in Christ who does not want to see you go. I urge you to reconsider, but alas I think your mind has been made up. God save us.
 
Don't insult (loser is too harsh), 1-point
TrainedLogosmotion said:
I've learned a lot and have become a better person. I've been a strong and active member where I was and contributed thoroughly and sincerely. You'll just have to take my word on that, which isn't easy, understandably, and I'm not surprised it would trigger doubt.
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Not everyone is like you, there would be no doubts triggered by the actions and words of an apostate.
You are a loser and you leave the One True Church defeated by the devil's arguments in your head. This is definitely not God's providence, it's the will of the devil for you. Go ahead, be an apostate. You can become "a leader" in a Roman Catholic parish all you want, it won't save you.
 
It seems most of the reasons you've given for leaving are very worldly. You don't like the people, you don't like the circumstances, etc. Well guess what, there are things all of us don't like about it. But will we bear them anyway knowing that with God's grace we will make it out okay in the end.

I for one don't particularly like fasting very much if I'm being honest. I don't like some of the overzealous converts I meet. But in the end none of that matters. The only thing that matters is the truth. Forget all the rest, and ask yourself which is this original Church founded by Christ at Pentecost after his Ascension? Which is the one that has kept the same doctrines as the first Christians? Which one has resisted the most against the modern globohomo agenda? I think you know which one it is, but the devil is playing tricks on you to grasp for reasons why that doesn't matter. He is distracting you.

If we Orthodox are right, then apostasizing can only lead you to spiritual ruin and possibly the loss of your soul. But if you are right that there's some sort of "spectrum" of churches, then you would gain no additional spiritual benefit by becoming Catholic, might as well stay Orthodox. God will be happy either way, right? You would gain some worldly benefits by leaving possibly, but these will no longer be relevant when you die.

So apply Pascal's wager. Staying in the Orthodox Church has the potential for infinite, eternal gains but some finite losses in this life. Whereas apostasy has the potential for some finite gains in this life, but infinite, eternal losses. What's the most logical choice?
 
I feel a bit uncomfortable about this whole situation. OP who is clearly in a somewhat distressed state of mind posted his intention to apostatize, and then invited people to talk him out of it but refused to give his actual reasons for deciding to do so because it would be "scandalizing"? It doesn't add up to me. We're not children here & if you want to genuinely discuss your prospective departure from Orthodoxy & hear advice then you have to explain what's going on in your heart. If you don't want our input then that's fair enough too but let's not beat around the bush.

FWIW TrainedLogosMotion I have always taken note of your name on RVF and here as a good guy with their head on straight and quality insight. I can't help but have noticed that in recent times you seem to have become increasingly agitated and despondent in your posts. I pray that you can find your way through and gain peace in your heart.

My only $.02 based on the limited information you have given us. In your eyes, either being part of the true and correct Church matters, or it doesn't matter. If it matters (which is both the Orthodox & RC position), then the parish-related frustrations you have alluded to are nothing and are either simply reason to find a new parish or a cross for you to bear. If the true Church doesn't matter or necessarily exist in your eyes, then you might as well become RC or whatever denomination makes you feel fuzziest.
 
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