Takes a special kind of guy to read all those works by dostoyevsky and not have the stones to speak about who caused all that suffering, when dostoyevsky wrote it in very plain speech who the culprits were.
Jordan Peterson Thread
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Takes a special kind of guy to read all those works by dostoyevsky and not have the stones to speak about who caused all that suffering, when dostoyevsky wrote it in very plain speech who the culprits were.
I was at the Symbolic World Summit in-person, which is the above conference where Jordan appears in the 'controversial' jacket.
For all of those that may be wondering along the lines of "When is Jordan Peterson going to convert to Orthodoxy?", I'd like to share something interesting...
At the end of the Summit, a question was posed to Jonathan Pageau asking "Would you tell us about your recent trip to Mount Athos with Jordan?"
Jonathan said that when they first attended a service at one of the monestaries, Jordan couldn't sit still and was showing Jonathan things on his phone...
He was showing something to Jonathan about communally focusing devotion on higher things and how that worship is good or something like this (I can't recall exactly what was said) to which Jonathan said or thought to himself "Yes, let's do that now. That's what we are doing here", essentially saying without saying: "Hello! Focus! Get out of your head! The good you speak about is in front of you!"
Jonathan said Jordan was essentially working on his next book during the service, appearing distracted and uncomfortable, and then after it was over that Jordan groaned, saying that he "hated it".
However, later on into the trip when they attended another service, Jordan walked out. Jonathan asked him what he was doing and he said "I had to go write down my sins." Jonathan seemed to think this was a step in the right direction.
Jonathan said that people should "shut up" about asking whether Jordan is going to convert. It's between him and God and we should attend to our own salvation (Again, I'm paraphrasing alot of this from memory so forgive me if I misquote).
I could comment things like "Jordan needs to get out of his head and into his heart", but for that matter, so do I. And even I become frustrated myself during services, for example, when everything is in Greek instead of English, my legs get tired, etc.
Instead of looking at Jordan as some beacon of truth, he's just another guy like any of us grappling with this stuff. It's better to focus on the Saints of Holy Orthodoxy who have conquered and risen above this type of convoluted thinking.
Or better yet, focus on the guy represented by his jacket.
For all of those that may be wondering along the lines of "When is Jordan Peterson going to convert to Orthodoxy?", I'd like to share something interesting...
At the end of the Summit, a question was posed to Jonathan Pageau asking "Would you tell us about your recent trip to Mount Athos with Jordan?"
Jonathan said that when they first attended a service at one of the monestaries, Jordan couldn't sit still and was showing Jonathan things on his phone...
He was showing something to Jonathan about communally focusing devotion on higher things and how that worship is good or something like this (I can't recall exactly what was said) to which Jonathan said or thought to himself "Yes, let's do that now. That's what we are doing here", essentially saying without saying: "Hello! Focus! Get out of your head! The good you speak about is in front of you!"
Jonathan said Jordan was essentially working on his next book during the service, appearing distracted and uncomfortable, and then after it was over that Jordan groaned, saying that he "hated it".
However, later on into the trip when they attended another service, Jordan walked out. Jonathan asked him what he was doing and he said "I had to go write down my sins." Jonathan seemed to think this was a step in the right direction.
Jonathan said that people should "shut up" about asking whether Jordan is going to convert. It's between him and God and we should attend to our own salvation (Again, I'm paraphrasing alot of this from memory so forgive me if I misquote).
I could comment things like "Jordan needs to get out of his head and into his heart", but for that matter, so do I. And even I become frustrated myself during services, for example, when everything is in Greek instead of English, my legs get tired, etc.
Instead of looking at Jordan as some beacon of truth, he's just another guy like any of us grappling with this stuff. It's better to focus on the Saints of Holy Orthodoxy who have conquered and risen above this type of convoluted thinking.
Or better yet, focus on the guy represented by his jacket.
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Jeremiah Branch
Orthodox Catechumen
That's very interesting, and telling, background on the situation. I am going to be less charitable than you are, however.
"he's just another guy like any of us grappling with this stuff." See, my issue is that I just don't think that statement is correct.
Yeah, I know we can never know another person's heart etc. But I have now seen in real life and done enough research on narcissistic personality disorder to recognize some of its traits. He is -- consciously or unconsciously - figuring out how to use it for his own purposes, to aggrandize himself, etc. People like that will make statements ("I had to go write down my sins.") that sound good, but are ultimately a kind of vanity and virtue-signaling to others. How many people here have ever said anything like that to someone while at a holy place with them? Is it because JP is so sensitive to his own shortcomings and so far above us, and that's why I've never come across it before? Or is it because he was aware of the bad impression he was making on Pageau and he needed to remedy it with a laughably ostentatious and false-ringing humble-brag? Color me highly skeptical.
I've seen two examples of real conversions of the heart by figures who led a "public life": Roosh and Victor Pride / Brother Nikolas. In both cases, it led to their abandoning any public role whatsoever. Am I arguing that this is _required_ in order to show true repentance and conversion? No. But I do not see anything in Peterson's actions that indicates any change in his personality, behavior or his desire to be the "smart boy" and the "guru" to the masses.
I still remember being stunned by the arrogance of his giving 3, 4, 5-hour (!) lectures on Genesis when he admitted it was the first time he had ever read it! Talk about pride, messiah-complex, and solipsism.
"he's just another guy like any of us grappling with this stuff." See, my issue is that I just don't think that statement is correct.
Yeah, I know we can never know another person's heart etc. But I have now seen in real life and done enough research on narcissistic personality disorder to recognize some of its traits. He is -- consciously or unconsciously - figuring out how to use it for his own purposes, to aggrandize himself, etc. People like that will make statements ("I had to go write down my sins.") that sound good, but are ultimately a kind of vanity and virtue-signaling to others. How many people here have ever said anything like that to someone while at a holy place with them? Is it because JP is so sensitive to his own shortcomings and so far above us, and that's why I've never come across it before? Or is it because he was aware of the bad impression he was making on Pageau and he needed to remedy it with a laughably ostentatious and false-ringing humble-brag? Color me highly skeptical.
I've seen two examples of real conversions of the heart by figures who led a "public life": Roosh and Victor Pride / Brother Nikolas. In both cases, it led to their abandoning any public role whatsoever. Am I arguing that this is _required_ in order to show true repentance and conversion? No. But I do not see anything in Peterson's actions that indicates any change in his personality, behavior or his desire to be the "smart boy" and the "guru" to the masses.
I still remember being stunned by the arrogance of his giving 3, 4, 5-hour (!) lectures on Genesis when he admitted it was the first time he had ever read it! Talk about pride, messiah-complex, and solipsism.
You also made it through Vox Day's book. Did you not form the same opinion of Vox himself? Alright, I get it Vox, you're smarter and cooler than the Canadian Lobster Man, why don't you spend another hundred pages explaining point by point why this is true?
By the end I disliked them both equally, though both have had some interesting things to say at times.
For sure Peterson has helped a lot of people in their journeys. I do think he has done a lot of good.
Christians seem a bit keen to claim him though. His exchange with Fr Stephen De Young wasn't that much different from anything he would have said in 2018, I heard nothing that was an affirmation of faith or even a belief in the afterlife. It was basically how can we interpret the resurrection in materialist terms? I do think both Pageau and Fr Stephen are too nicey nicey to call him on it. That's not a criticism per se, we need people like that in our journey too, but also Peterson could have done with someone shooting his schtick down in a moment like that. Someone like Fr Josiah Trenham or Fr Peter Heers likely would have said "yes but the resurrection isn't a useful allegory, we believe it is something that will occur in actuality." It might have some use to put things into terms Peterson could understand, but ultimately I think it just reinforced the whole thing that is stopping him from making a genuine conversion. This being that every aspect of faith has to processed through this lens of interpretation to make it compatible with materialism.
I think Peterson is blessed to have a friend like Jonathan Pageau and I don't mean to knock him because he seems cool, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would really call him out on his nonsense. He's getting nudges, but I think he needs to be humbled and humiliated a bit. I hope he does come across one of the more stern and forceful voices in Orthodoxy, in a way that doesn't let him do his schtick.
Christians seem a bit keen to claim him though. His exchange with Fr Stephen De Young wasn't that much different from anything he would have said in 2018, I heard nothing that was an affirmation of faith or even a belief in the afterlife. It was basically how can we interpret the resurrection in materialist terms? I do think both Pageau and Fr Stephen are too nicey nicey to call him on it. That's not a criticism per se, we need people like that in our journey too, but also Peterson could have done with someone shooting his schtick down in a moment like that. Someone like Fr Josiah Trenham or Fr Peter Heers likely would have said "yes but the resurrection isn't a useful allegory, we believe it is something that will occur in actuality." It might have some use to put things into terms Peterson could understand, but ultimately I think it just reinforced the whole thing that is stopping him from making a genuine conversion. This being that every aspect of faith has to processed through this lens of interpretation to make it compatible with materialism.
I think Peterson is blessed to have a friend like Jonathan Pageau and I don't mean to knock him because he seems cool, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would really call him out on his nonsense. He's getting nudges, but I think he needs to be humbled and humiliated a bit. I hope he does come across one of the more stern and forceful voices in Orthodoxy, in a way that doesn't let him do his schtick.
Agreed. Do people not see the irony of someone who calls themselves "Vox Day" telling us off about who is narcissistic and who is not? He is not the most pleasant or interesting man either, nothing I would like to emulate personally.
It's interesting that you say this because Jordan actually made the challenge to Jonathan to start 'pushing back'. For their next talks on the Bible coming up, apparently Jordan wants some more aggressive, stern engagement from Jonathan.
I never heard of Vox Day until I read about him in this thread yesterday. Apparently he is revered science-fiction writer. I watched his YouTube channel- he's well-spoken but dull, and I've heard more objective and thoughtful criticisms of JP on this forum.
I haven't seen any mention of Juden Peterstein's new book yet, which might explain some of his reported behaviours...I was at the Symbolic World Summit in-person, which is the above conference where Jordan appears in the 'controversial' jacket.
For all of those that may be wondering along the lines of "When is Jordan Peterson going to convert to Orthodoxy?", I'd like to share something interesting...
At the end of the Summit, a question was posed to Jonathan Pageau asking "Would you tell us about your recent trip to Mount Athos with Jordan?"
Jonathan said that when they first attended a service at one of the monestaries, Jordan couldn't sit still and was showing Jonathan things on his phone...
He was showing something to Jonathan about communally focusing devotion on higher things and how that worship is good or something like this (I can't recall exactly what was said) to which Jonathan said or thought to himself "Yes, let's do that now. That's what we are doing here", essentially saying without saying: "Hello! Focus! Get out of your head! The good you speak about is in front of you!"
Jonathan said Jordan was essentially working on his next book during the service, appearing distracted and uncomfortable, and then after it was over that Jordan groaned, saying that he "hated it".
However, later on into the trip when they attended another service, Jordan walked out. Jonathan asked him what he was doing and he said "I had to go write down my sins." Jonathan seemed to think this was a step in the right direction.
Jonathan said that people should "shut up" about asking whether Jordan is going to convert. It's between him and God and we should attend to our own salvation (Again, I'm paraphrasing alot of this from memory so forgive me if I misquote).
I could comment things like "Jordan needs to get out of his head and into his heart", but for that matter, so do I. And even I become frustrated myself during services, for example, when everything is in Greek instead of English, my legs get tired, etc.
Instead of looking at Jordan as some beacon of truth, he's just another guy like any of us grappling with this stuff. It's better to focus on the Saints of Holy Orthodoxy who have conquered and risen above this type of convoluted thinking.
Or better yet, focus on the guy represented by his jacket.
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/452067/we-who-wrestle-with-god-by-peterson-jordan-b/9780241619612
Summary
The revolutionary new offering from Jordan B. Peterson, renowned psychologist and author of the global bestseller 12 Rules for Life
In We Who Wrestle with God, Jordan Peterson guides us through the ancient, foundational stories of the Western world, analyzing the Biblical accounts of rebellion, sacrifice, suffering and triumph that stabilize, inspire and unite us, culturally and psychologically. Adam and Eve and the eternal fall of mankind; the resentful and ultimately murderous war of Cain and Abel; the cataclysmic flood of Noah, the spectacular collapse of the Tower of Babel; Abraham’s terrible adventure, and the epic of Moses and the Israelites: What could such stories possibly mean? What force wrote and assembled them, over the long centuries? How did they bring our spirits and the world together, and point us in the same direction?
It is time for us to understand such things, scientifically and spiritually; to become conscious of the structure of our souls and our societies – to see ourselves and others as if for the first time.
Join Elijah as he discovers the Voice of God in the dictates of his own conscience, and Jonah, confronting hell itself, in the belly of the whale, because he failed to listen and act. Set yourself straight in intent, aim and purpose, as you begin to more deeply understand the structure of your society and your soul. Journey with Jordan Peterson through the greatest stories ever told.
Dare to wrestle with God.
The irony is that the Daily Wire are progressives. What most people call conservatives are just slow progressives. We should call them retarded progressives
Seeing this fraud's daughter get absolutely crushed on Twitter today is inspirational.
Nick has destroyed the fraud Jordan Peterson himself today.
That would be a great discussion if Jordan Peterson had the balls to debate Nick Fuentes. Maybe it could happen if he left the Daily Wire.