Game-like tactics for Christian Relationships?

[Sandalwood Peak]

Do you think that men are asking for too much (appearance wise) or women are asking for too much in general?

Are you alluding to the virginity thing? I don’t think men are asking for much of anything, I think men just operate with the wrong ideas that are counterproductive. I think men are too nice, too conformist. I personally believe women are borderline property. If another man can take a woman away from me, if most of them think it would hot for that to happen, how is she not property? If you can’t be possessive over a woman, what’s even the point?

I don’t generally “advocate” the red pill since I’ve grown indifferent to the struggles of other people, but if a Christian wants to know what the red pill teaches without the the psychotic drivel of the “guru”, I don’t see that as a bad thing. A lot of these ideas are based on real phenomenon. The greatest weakness for a man is confusion and lack of understanding. This is why animals are suppose to teach their offspring to survive. So if we apply it to humans, how am I suppose to survive with “try to get her to like you”? Just pure evil nonsense.

Mentality is everything, piety and avoidance of sin which the video advocates is a very good mentality to have. It’s not a weakness the same way some BS like “kindness, openness and understanding” is. This is assuming you don’t even believe in God, if you do then piety is the only way anyway. I definitely don’t advocate the “try to become a playboy” mentality since that’s pure cancer.

Even if you die a virgin that video still advocates the correct thing in my opinion.

As far as women go, the situation with women is apocalyptic. Most women are trash.

 

[Lawrence87]

I'm not totally sure I understand this sentence as it is fairly unclear. I think you're saying that when they gave up looking the woman popped up. That might be, but it's a type of bias. You probably didn't hear about the men for whom no woman popped up, because there's no story there to tell. What's more, the trick with the modern day is that there aren't many godly people around, and I think even less godly women, to be quite honest. Of the godly women, most of the women in the west will be average to bad looking, or fat (that's just a reflection of the average or status of the culture/society).

I guess to clarify, they usually mean they quit whatever active wife-seeking they were doing and began to focus on Christ and then in so doing they ended up meeting their wife. You are right that it can be selection bias, and its not a cheat-code or something. But I think it makes sense.

Let's say someone is actively in pursuit of a wife. Every pretty woman in church is a potential candidate. Already this will create conditions for "oneitis" and just generally putting too much weight on interactions, especially when candidates are few and far between. You can kinda see how, at least in persons with a certain disposition that this could lead to potential candidates being put off, or behaviour that might undermine any potential relationships.

If you contrast this with a man who has decided to focus his attention on Christ, firstly that will instantly catch the attention of a woman who is looking for that quality in a man, secondly he will not be inclined to "oneitis", interactions may or may not lead anywhere, its in God's hands, as he sees it. He will be more at ease, more able to be confident, and won't have this tension that he needs to engineer the situation towards his desired end. All of these things are only going to lead to more attractive qualities. Not to mention that God will help him.

That is not to say it will definitely work. And also I don't think it works as a kind of "hack" wherein you create a facade of godliness to patch over the desperation beneath the surface. In other words its not "focus on Christ, then I'll get the wife I'm desperate for" its just "focus on Christ, whatever that leads to"

I think people often object to this kind of thinking because it comes across like it is being advocated as a cheat code. I don't mean it in that sense. Probably a lot, if not most Christian men in the West are going to have a really hard time finding a wife, if at all. We have to be prepared for that. How do we prepare for that? How do we prepare for the potential meeting of our wife? The answer to both is the same; focus on Christ. That is our duty as men.

 

[aero]

The only red pill guy I can stomach to watch reiterates what we already know. If you want to learn game concepts I would recommend him.

Tried to watch it but it was verbal diarrhea.

I guess the argument he's making is that you shouldn't sleep with a girl you are dating, and you should be the ideal masculine stalwart, and that's going to make her fall in love with you... because you are rejecting lust and denying her deviant nature.

If this is your strategy you are missing half the battle. Where are you finding the woman who will positively respond to this? Because in the west, most won't. In other parts of the world it would work great. He totally skipped over this extremely important detail.

At the end he says "when you do crack and finally do sleep with her she will lose respect for you". No that's BS. Are you going to get married and still never have sex with your wife in order to maintain your bulletproof masculine unwavering frame? This is foolish. You can have a sexual relationship with a woman and not come off as a thirsty pushover. He's ignoring that whole gray area for some reason.

Notice also he's selling a webinar on how YOU can attract ANY woman. Yeah... he's just another youtube redpill guru clown.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

Tried to watch it but it was verbal diarrhea.

I guess the argument he's making is that you shouldn't sleep with a girl you are dating, and you should be the ideal masculine stalwart, and that's going to make her fall in love with you... because you are rejecting lust and denying her deviant nature.

If this is your strategy you are missing half the battle. Where are you finding the woman who will positively respond to this? Because in the west, most won't. In other parts of the world it would work great. He totally skipped over this extremely important detail.

At the end he says "when you do crack and finally do sleep with her she will lose respect for you". No that's BS. Are you going to get married and still never have sex with your wife in order to maintain your bulletproof masculine unwavering frame? This is foolish. You can have a sexual relationship with a woman and not come off as a thirsty pushover. He's ignoring that whole gray area for some reason.

Notice also he's selling a webinar on how YOU can attract ANY woman. Yeah... he's just another youtube redpill guru clown.

First of all I’m not here to promote him. Your criticisms are valid. The thing I like about him is his white board format, ability to articulate and overall personality.

The first thing I want to say is that I consider marriage a business arrangement. This simplifies the whole process. Now myself and any man that needs dating advice is a “nice guy”. There is something inherently flawed in the way we deal with women. Our issue is “consent”. No one needs us and we morally don’t believe we can “force” a woman into anything. The only solution to dating that we have is basically a “voluntary” union on both ends. We need to “inspire” or “attract” a woman into being with us with nothing but our personality or lifestyle. Since it doesn’t come naturally we’ve already been dealt a losing hand. There’s very little other pressures for a woman, aside for hitting the wall, to “need” us. I say “need” because that is what it takes. Just like business.

This is a troublesome dynamic in a post-patriarchal world. Not only do we have to play a losing game but we’re also handicapped by our nature. There’s a lot of retarded psychoanalysis about nice guys but oneitis is real and it can manifest itself in many ways. In our interactions with women we’re constantly walking a thin line of giving a woman all the power. This is the problem with lust. All forms of lust inherently elevate the woman, while showing your true colors. We’re a one trick pony with women. Some of us might not be looking exclusively for sex but when push comes to shove, the oneitis we’re constantly fighting is directly tied to the validation that can only come from a woman. If you need it then you ain’t getting it naturally. A woman only has one true way to validate a man. So it always comes back to sex.

The reason I think it’s advisable to abstain from lust is because collectively it would save western civilization, and secondly like it’s been told a million times you can retain the power in the interaction. Now that “power” is not good on its own. That power is suppose to put you in a certain frame of mind. You will be forced to use your big head. Instead of a half chubby motivating all your actions, you can use reason to determine where to go. If you can achieve such a switch then women problems should melt away.

The biggest problem we have as men in fighting lust is we actually lack the motivation. Most men believe they deserve any and all intimate encounters possible. The whole point of training yourself is so you have the mentality that will prevent you from falling into that feedback loop. Women will notice too, but we’re beyond that because it really doesn’t matter. We’re on a road that is beyond the approval of women.

Now you’re right, if some half drunk skank is all over you in a club then saying “no” looks kind of stupid. Apples and oranges.

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

Maybe, maybe not. I still think it hinges on the questions, after a while, "What am I working for?" and "Should I be a monk if I've already done all the other material stuff in life"? You can be happy with yourself but still be rather bored with life after a while. I like a lot of the things I do daily but they don't seem to have the meaning as by the time you are 40 if you have done most things in life, nothing is actually very new - it's just a different escape.

I saw that video a while back, and clicked through it. What do you think his best points are. "Women want more" - uh yea, that's why it's such a problem for men currently. They have other things to distract them from actually being in cooperation with a man, and those things sadly waste the window where men actually might take them seriously. It's the same, repeating pattern. You could say that men's expectations are too high but historically I know this isn't true since there are so few women I actually see that truly add to their man's life (there are some, don't get me wrong). Most of the women who would add to a man's life and act pleasant, etc are pretty much or best described as fat 4s or 5s. That's why they behave well - they aren't in very high demand at all.

Great counter points and questions.

I am working so that I can do as much to help fight back against the satanic elites as possible in my lifetime. The more we can take from them in this system, the more we can fight back with. If we no longer have to work and can speak truth to power, and buy up resources (land, rentals, whatever) the more we have to stand our ground on and pass on to the next generation who will likely have to continue this fight.

This keeps me going, when life gets mundane. I agree though that by 40, very little will interest most people if you have been there and done that. Personally, I have not been there or done that, because I have spent all my time working and saving. There are a ton of things I still want to do, but I will wait until I no longer have to work to do them. Even simple things, most guys here probably take for granted, like watching a movie with a lady or a dinner out with a lady or a vacation somewhere, are all things I have not really done and are new things I look forward to. So for me, it is easier to stay motivated and working for something. If you are completely at the "been there, done that" boredom phase of life, to me this is your soul telling you it is time to become a dad and pass it on to your children.

To me, the big take away from the video, something I never considered, is that women desire men who can control their own sexual desires. All forms of media (TV, movies, social media, etc.) make men out to be these creatures who can't control their sexual desires and women have little desire for me other than for the resources they have. This video taught me that this isn't how women really operate. Women want it to be this way, men think it is normal for it to be this way, but this is another inverted reality. In reality it is women who should be turned on by the men, to the point they are trying their all effort to seduce him and it is the man who should be like "meh, okay, you have worked hard, come here to talk to me". And this really does work well on women. When men let the women do the chasing, and men then see a woman with half her body hanging out and a full coat of makeup and treats them like a "okay, what is your name?" as if she is just another random person in the crowd, the women go insane for this ability of a man to control his desires. Women crave men who are disciplined and focused and will guide them to a better structured life. This is something I never considered before.

Unfortunately, women are also horny, and when they can't get that man they desire to submit to, they find a low life creep who they can have sex with and feel little attachment. And this is where the whole PUA thing comes into play and the whole relationship between men and women cracks and falls apart.

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

Now you’re right, if some half drunk skank is all over you in a club then saying “no” looks kind of stupid. Apples and oranges.

Great post, I agree with all but this line here.

If men start to see sex not as a pleasure they need to "enjoy life", but instead a huge responsibility, then the half-drunk skank is one to avoid at all costs.

Do you want to create a child with her? Probably not.
Do you want to form a bond with her? Probably not.
Will it then be, at the best, very awkward the next day? Yes
Will that awkwardness end there, or will she tell her friends you are a creep that "took advantage" of her? Possibly yes.

I think if men start to view sex as a huge responsibility, of tying your entire life to another person, then men would start to make a lot better decisions and society as a whole would move in the right direction.

 

[Lawrence87]

Great post, I agree with all but this line here.

If men start to see sex not as a pleasure they need to "enjoy life", but instead a huge responsibility, then the half-drunk skank is one to avoid at all costs.

Do you want to create a child with her? Probably not.
Do you want to form a bond with her? Probably not.
Will it then be, at the best, very awkward the next day? Yes
Will that awkwardness end there, or will she tell her friends you are a creep that "took advantage" of her? Possibly yes.

I think if men start to view sex as a huge responsibility, of tying your entire life to another person, then men would start to make a lot better decisions and society as a whole would move in the right direction.

Agreed even just considering that thesedays consent can be withdrawn retroactively one should be extremely careful about it.

A drunken night stand can ruin a guy if the woman doesn't feel good about it afterwards and decides to file charges.

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

Agreed even just considering that thesedays consent can be withdrawn retroactively one should be extremely careful about it.

A drunken night stand can ruin a guy if the woman doesn't feel good about it afterwards and decides to file charges.

When I stopped seeing women as a conquest/pleasure and started to see them as potential wives and future mothers of my children, most women became very unattractive to me overnight.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

Great post, I agree with all but this line here.

If men start to see sex not as a pleasure they need to "enjoy life", but instead a huge responsibility, then the half-drunk skank is one to avoid at all costs.

Do you want to create a child with her? Probably not.
Do you want to form a bond with her? Probably not.
Will it then be, at the best, very awkward the next day? Yes
Will that awkwardness end there, or will she tell her friends you are a creep that "took advantage" of her? Possibly yes.

I think if men start to view sex as a huge responsibility, of tying your entire life to another person, then men would start to make a lot better decisions and society as a whole would move in the right direction.

That was a stupid example.

What I was imagining was some guy going to the club to get laid and then telling a girl “no” as some kind of reverse psychology. A lot of guys read red pill stuff and get all excited thinking it’s some kind of “trick” to success. No, using this as a “trick” would look pretty stupid.

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

That was a stupid example.

What I was imagining was some guy going to the club to get laid and then telling a girl “no” as some kind of reverse psychology. A lot of guys read red pill stuff and get all excited thinking it’s some kind of “trick” to success. No, using this as a “trick” would look pretty stupid.

Oh, I understand, you are correct.

 

[Blade Runner]

If we no longer have to work and can speak truth to power, and buy up resources (land, rentals, whatever) the more we have to stand our ground on and pass on to the next generation who will likely have to continue this fight.

This is why I do enough work to put me still in the upper echelon, but won't do more than that due to stress and paying taxes. So I do agree with you. It's a planning and strategy phase.

If you are completely at the "been there, done that" boredom phase of life, to me this is your soul telling you it is time to become a dad and pass it on to your children.

I agree, and also believe that's pretty clear. The problem is that once you are over 30 as a woman, you aren't really desirable anymore and that social and biological reality then became making MEN not desirable at ages in their 30s, when they actually have top value, as a type of retribution and scorn. That's the genesis of the age gap taboo.

And this really does work well on women.

There's a problem, though, when simps and high number of males abound: Trust.

Women crave men who are disciplined and focused and will guide them to a better structured life. This is something I never considered before.

They can't discern planning, future, or finances though. If they are in a culture with tons of males for whatever reason, and most males are thus average and desperate or closer to simps, they can't recognize the good men because their filters are skewed or burned out by all the nonsense approaches for quick play. That's why families need to make decisions largely for women, and have in the past.

When I stopped seeing women as a conquest/pleasure and started to see them as potential wives and future mothers of my children, most women became very unattractive to me overnight.

I totally agree. The modern west turned women, and they agree and participated in it, to mini date pornos though as most demand high levels of time and attention and aren't worthy of investment as wives and mothers. It's hard to see a woman as a potential wife and mother when she already gave her best years to one, a few, or several other men in her 20s.

It's a funny topic that we don't have to get into right now, but it's one of the reasons I don't consider condom sex to truly be sex. There's no vulnerability there really and you're actively telling the person "No, I don't want to be with you or you to have a kid in this situation". It's something few think about because it's a high level of introspection as to what's going on - not just a simple analysis of an "act." It's also why real sex, where you actually throw all abandon to the wind, is so intense - the risk is high for all sorts of things if you don't trust the person: infection, a child, having to deal with her family or tribe ... etc

 

[Seng Hock]

One thing I have thought a lot about is whether there is a need for men to learn strategies for relationships. I don’t mean playing games or manipulating women but rather having some solid tactics and strategies.

I was never into “game” or the PUA world but they taught some things that were used to help men achieve a (unholy) goal. Is there a parallel for Godly relationships and can we share these tactics to help each other achieve a holy purpose (matrimony)?

You know if this was asked on the old forum the response will be "this is not a dating forum, secular advice is not welcome here, ask your priest", and finally the thread will get locked.


By the way in early March I finally asked my priest about this topic. He said that I should read the Akathist to St. Xenia and after that recite the prayer to find a spouse from the church's prayer book. But he reminded me to put some real world efforts such as to network more and ask friends to introduce to available women.

I see that other forum members have already posted excellent answers. Let me add that Michael Witcoff/Brother Augustine also found his spouse unexpectedly when attending church, despite his past PUA background (in fact he does not use any PUA tricks at all at the moment he found his spouse).

Pray, ask the Lord for a wife, and if He feels it is best for you then He will give you one. That's all I've ever done, and combined with some basic game knowledge, I have gotten way more women than I've ever deserved.

This golden post is from Samseau in the Monk Mode Celibacy thread (I can't quote his post directly since it is in the Orthodox subforum).

Now for the game part, do you have the book "Game" by Roosh? I think reading this alone is enough to tell you basic understanding about game without being overcomplicated or oversimplified. Read Roosh's other books and other red pill materials as extra knowledge, but reading "Game" only is sufficient in most case.

 

[Blade Runner]

He said that I should read the Akathist to St. Xenia and after that recite the prayer to find a spouse from the church's prayer book. But he reminded me to put some real world efforts such as to network more and ask friends to introduce to available women.

Yes, all of the above does not hurt, in fact you probably have to do it all.

This golden post is from Samseau in the Monk Mode Celibacy thread (I can't quote his post directly since it is in the Orthodox subforum).

We go back and forth a bit, and largely agree on things, so it's not like I don't pay attention to nearly all Sammy says. I'm generally more in the camp of contention with the "God will do X for you" when it's actually up to you to create the odds and scenarios that will render a result X. My summary is that if you've done the work in the west, and a lot of men have (and a lot are scumbags, yes), the supply problem is going to be your issue since the young, attractive woman supply is so low. And if you get older, you just won't be around them enough for that to happen, even if there were no social taboo. Whereas normal cultures look for older men who are actually put together, since most of their surrounding men either aren't or are low IQ/low fidelity. When you realize that the west/developed world is gynocentric and restrictive of male sexuality, you'll never un-see the realities. Even if you can't get an early 20s girl, there are a ton of older 20s girls in other countries that are looking for quality men, precisely because they reality that at 28 they aren't 23 anymore and aren't nearly as valuable. That's another cohort/age group that is just (maybe) looking to settle down in the west, proving the point.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

So all through my 20s I was very game heavy. Mostly night game at bars, clubs, EDM events, parties etc. I also used Tinder a lot.

Now I'm trying to meet girls the traditional way through Church, Church events, wider Orthodox events, my network within those circles etc. I also have dabbled a bit with Upward recently and I've been chatting with a girl that seems on paper to be okay. Overall, I'm just not seeing much worth pursuing. I actually already deleted the app. I just cannot take these American white girls seriously, and there's so many protestants. But there was this one which intrigued me more than any other...

So on paper, she's 26, lives with her parents, was homeschooled, she's Christian, she's novax, conservative, pretty good looking I'd like a solid 7.5...sounds good right?

However there some things I'm starting to notice. She's overworked, and even though not career-oriented, she's just taking her low-end menial job way too seriously, losing sleep, and getting sick. She's a high strung cluster B type (Is there any way for white American women to not be infected by this mental illness?). This workaholic strong 'merican thing has infected women even down to the ones that work for minimum wage.

She's also family-oriented to the point where it's causing too much stress. For example, somehow she has ended up the one solely responsible for her nephew. This is really the interesting part of my post I think...

I think this phenomenon is something that is becoming more rampant with women in sick societies like the US. So many women now are finding it normal and necessary to take care of someone else's kid. Many women have the ONS with some random guy that runs out on them, or just your typical secular dalliance with no strings attached outside of wedlock, leaving them with kids and a full-time job with no time to care for the kid.

So they give the kid to their sister in this case, who in her prime mothering years with her nurturing instincts, when she could be taking care of her own kids, she's grinding away as mommy for her sibling's kid, and has "no time to do anything".

So not only now do I have to watch out for girls that have kids (Or surrogate pets as kids), but now it seems I have to see whether or not they've become responsible for their sibling's kid. So this has become part of my new game (Which really isn't a game, it's more just asking questions to see if we are a good match and whether or not it's worth meeting up. I'm just letting my intentions be known right from the start. I'm not using any game tactics because if she falls for that crap then I know she's probably banged a bunch of guys. Im just telling her flat out, if you aren't open to Orthodoxy, I don't want to waste your time, things like this).

This child-rearing assistance stuff is spilling over. It's not just something contained in one nuclear situation where the mom makes a bad mistake with a guy and has to cover for herself. Now the kids get passed on to other members of the family to help support, and everyone just works works works their fingers to the bone. Not normal.

But what can be done? If the man is out of the picture as support role, and government isn't cutting it, they have to work their butt off to take care of the kid. If they can't hack it, family members step in to support.

A friend of mine has two daughters. One knocked up by black guy and another a Latino guy. Both guys are out of the picture. Both the daughters can't afford to take care of the kid. So who takes care of the kids? Their dad. Their dad supports them along with their children. "Family first"

I imagine once the two youngest are old enough, the dumbos will pop more kids out with guys from the bar or a drug binge, then the granddaughters can be the moms for them, forgoing their own nuclear families. This activity is also likely to lead to lesbianism. If the fathers are overly supportive of bad behavior and continually give in, and the women team up to care for each others kids, while the idiot men that knocked them up run off, this makes the women turn in to wine mom lesbos.

There's also other things like skipping Church on Easter to go hang out with cousins. What are they doing? Drinking alcohol and watching sports? How is this any different from secular people? Family doesn't come before Church!

I hate to say it, and don't get me wrong, but some of this "family first" and "family is everything to me" stuff seems toxic to me. This isn't going to produce healthy, thriving societies. I've noticed this is particularly emphasized with protestant types (Girl I'm talking to is protestant).

Some other red flags are the fact that she is reading new age stuff. Things that aren't Christian. She was reluctant to tell me what she was reading which I found odd. But once she told me I started to put some pieces together.

I sense that girls are starting to realize where the good guys are and what we want. I feel like they are telling us what we want to hear. And by good I just mean guys that want to start traditional families and commit to them in a Godly way.

It's hard to navigate this stuff unless we actually meet up with them in person. It's like when I was looking for houses, I'd amp myself up on the Zillow listing and believe it was my dream house. Then when I got there in person, I realized I'd been duped. It was false advertising.

I feel like game nowadays as Christian men in this crazy world we need to be focused on making sure we aren't being misled, or that we don't paint unrealistic pictures of what a girl will be like. Don't just believe everything she says. She knows exactly what you want.

She can say she is this and that and everything I mentioned about her on paper. She loves to cook and clean too! She wants to be a mommy! Seems perfect!

But what if she's just saying all that because she wants a guy to support her and commit to her after failing in her secular choices? What if she is the one gaming me? And I guess one could say that's what I'm doing. I failed at secular life now I'm going the Christian way. That's true, but the point is we don't know if someone is being genuine or not.

I'm sure some girls out there are, but it's going to take asking tough questions. I even brought up the Orthodox stuff and to my surprise she seemed pretty on board, but something struck me as it not being authentic. I get the "everything is positive" vibe. Saying one thing while thinking another.

I feel like now I'm vulnerable as the more naive one. If I'm attempting to form a relationship in a virtuous way, I can be taken advantage of.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it. But I'm finding it enormously hard to give any effort towards anyone or take them seriously. It's not even about game. I'm not even worried about that. It's "is this girl for real? Is she going to waste my time?" This is an enormous risk for me. This isn't the same as negging some girl at a bar and using kino. This is way beyond that and completely different. Till death do us part and game mentality really just don't mix. You get your life together and when you're ready, you vet.

With my Filipina ex, there were traditonal features she had that were absolutely authentic. It just felt real. She was really feminine. She wanted to be led. She showed me respect. And the traditional culture and family values around her also felt truly genuine. Something about the west just strikes me as very fake, even the ones that claim to be this way.

Something just doesn't feel right. I can't put my finger on it with this one. I guess it's better to be overly cautious. One risk is that if I don't take time to really think this through and I meet her in person then I won't be able to think clearly due to my attraction for her. I could fall back into my old ways. But if I just stick to vetting on the phone or through friends, I'll just get stuck in my thoughts.

I'm trying to delay the meetups until I feel I've vetted them thoroughly. For those I haven't been in direct contact with, I get others to do the vetting. I hate to be robotic and overly serious but I just can't trust them. I feel like a need an autistic list of questions I need to read off and write down the answers while staring at them to decipher whether or not they are pretending.

This isn't the first time this has happened. There's been several "Orthodox" girls that turned out to be secular leftist feminists in disguise. On paper, and even on the surface level as far as the 'mask' they wore at Church, I was easily fooled. They put on a good show.

So that's the game. Figure out if she's cosplaying/larping.

And some might say it's going to be a lot of work. I might have to teach her. I get that, but there are better starting points. I'd rather not get myself into a huge mess. I understand no girl is going to be perfect.

I'm just having a hard time seeing the point if she's going to be infected by the wider diaspora of morons in the US.

I feel like I need to be in the Amazon jungle with a tribal woman that has never seen a phone. I just can't deal with the drama of the modern woman.

 

[Lawrence87]

So all through my 20s I was very game heavy. Mostly night game at bars, clubs, EDM events, parties etc. I also used Tinder a lot.

Now I'm trying to meet girls the traditional way through Church, Church events, wider Orthodox events, my network within those circles etc. I also have dabbled a bit with Upward recently and I've been chatting with a girl that seems on paper to be okay. Overall, I'm just not seeing much worth pursuing. I actually already deleted the app. I just cannot take these American white girls seriously, and there's so many protestants. But there was this one which intrigued me more than any other...

So on paper, she's 26, lives with her parents, was homeschooled, she's Christian, she's novax, conservative, pretty good looking I'd like a solid 7.5...sounds good right?

However there some things I'm starting to notice. She's overworked, and even though not career-oriented, she's just taking her low-end menial job way too seriously, losing sleep, and getting sick. She's a high strung cluster B type (Is there any way for white American women to not be infected by this mental illness?). This workaholic strong 'merican thing has infected women even down to the ones that work for minimum wage.

She's also family-oriented to the point where it's causing too much stress. For example, somehow she has ended up the one solely responsible for her nephew. This is really the interesting part of my post I think...

I think this phenomenon is something that is becoming more rampant with women in sick societies like the US. So many women now are finding it normal and necessary to take care of someone else's kid. Many women have the ONS with some random guy that runs out on them, or just your typical secular dalliance with no strings attached outside of wedlock, leaving them with kids and a full-time job with no time to care for the kid.

So they give the kid to their sister in this case, who in her prime mothering years with her nurturing instincts, when she could be taking care of her own kids, she's grinding away as mommy for her sibling's kid, and has "no time to do anything".

So not only now do I have to watch out for girls that have kids (Or surrogate pets as kids), but now it seems I have to see whether or not they've become responsible for their sibling's kid. So this has become part of my new game (Which really isn't a game, it's more just asking questions to see if we are a good match and whether or not it's worth meeting up. I'm just letting my intentions be known right from the start. I'm not using any game tactics because if she falls for that crap then I know she's probably banged a bunch of guys. Im just telling her flat out, if you aren't open to Orthodoxy, I don't want to waste your time, things like this).

This child-rearing assistance stuff is spilling over. It's not just something contained in one nuclear situation where the mom makes a bad mistake with a guy and has to cover for herself. Now the kids get passed on to other members of the family to help support, and everyone just works works works their fingers to the bone. Not normal.

But what can be done? If the man is out of the picture as support role, and government isn't cutting it, they have to work their butt off to take care of the kid. If they can't hack it, family members step in to support.

A friend of mine has two daughters. One knocked up by black guy and another a Latino guy. Both guys are out of the picture. Both the daughters can't afford to take care of the kid. So who takes care of the kids? Their dad. Their dad supports them along with their children. "Family first"

I imagine once the two youngest are old enough, the dumbos will pop more kids out with guys from the bar or a drug binge, then the granddaughters can be the moms for them, forgoing their own nuclear families. This activity is also likely to lead to lesbianism. If the fathers are overly supportive of bad behavior and continually give in, and the women team up to care for each others kids, while the idiot men that knocked them up run off, this makes the women turn in to wine mom lesbos.

There's also other things like skipping Church on Easter to go hang out with cousins. What are they doing? Drinking alcohol and watching sports? How is this any different from secular people? Family doesn't come before Church!

I hate to say it, and don't get me wrong, but some of this "family first" and "family is everything to me" stuff seems toxic to me. This isn't going to produce healthy, thriving societies. I've noticed this is particularly emphasized with protestant types (Girl I'm talking to is protestant).

Some other red flags are the fact that she is reading new age stuff. Things that aren't Christian. She was reluctant to tell me what she was reading which I found odd. But once she told me I started to put some pieces together.

I sense that girls are starting to realize where the good guys are and what we want. I feel like they are telling us what we want to hear. And by good I just mean guys that want to start traditional families and commit to them in a Godly way.

It's hard to navigate this stuff unless we actually meet up with them in person. It's like when I was looking for houses, I'd amp myself up on the Zillow listing and believe it was my dream house. Then when I got there in person, I realized I'd been duped. It was false advertising.

I feel like game nowadays as Christian men in this crazy world we need to be focused on making sure we aren't being misled, or that we don't paint unrealistic pictures of what a girl will be like. Don't just believe everything she says. She knows exactly what you want.

She can say she is this and that and everything I mentioned about her on paper. She loves to cook and clean too! She wants to be a mommy! Seems perfect!

But what if she's just saying all that because she wants a guy to support her and commit to her after failing in her secular choices? What if she is the one gaming me? And I guess one could say that's what I'm doing. I failed at secular life now I'm going the Christian way. That's true, but the point is we don't know if someone is being genuine or not.

I'm sure some girls out there are, but it's going to take asking tough questions. I even brought up the Orthodox stuff and to my surprise she seemed pretty on board, but something struck me as it not being authentic. I get the "everything is positive" vibe. Saying one thing while thinking another.

I feel like now I'm vulnerable as the more naive one. If I'm attempting to form a relationship in a virtuous way, I can be taken advantage of.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it. But I'm finding it enormously hard to give any effort towards anyone or take them seriously. It's not even about game. I'm not even worried about that. It's "is this girl for real? Is she going to waste my time?" This is an enormous risk for me. This isn't the same as negging some girl at a bar and using kino. This is way beyond that and completely different. Till death do us part and game mentality really just don't mix. You get your life together and when you're ready, you vet.

With my Filipina ex, there were traditonal features she had that were absolutely authentic. It just felt real. She was really feminine. She wanted to be led. She showed me respect. And the traditional culture and family values around her also felt truly genuine. Something about the west just strikes me as very fake, even the ones that claim to be this way.

Something just doesn't feel right. I can't put my finger on it with this one. I guess it's better to be overly cautious. One risk is that if I don't take time to really think this through and I meet her in person then I won't be able to think clearly due to my attraction for her. I could fall back into my old ways. But if I just stick to vetting on the phone or through friends, I'll just get stuck in my thoughts.

I'm trying to delay the meetups until I feel I've vetted them thoroughly. For those I haven't been in direct contact with, I get others to do the vetting. I hate to be robotic and overly serious but I just can't trust them. I feel like a need an autistic list of questions I need to read off and write down the answers while staring at them to decipher whether or not they are pretending.

This isn't the first time this has happened. There's been several "Orthodox" girls that turned out to be secular leftist feminists in disguise. On paper, and even on the surface level as far as the 'mask' they wore at Church, I was easily fooled. They put on a good show.

So that's the game. Figure out if she's cosplaying/larping.

And some might say it's going to be a lot of work. I might have to teach her. I get that, but there are better starting points. I'd rather not get myself into a huge mess. I understand no girl is going to be perfect.

I'm just having a hard time seeing the point if she's going to be infected by the wider diaspora of morons in the US.

I feel like I need to be in the Amazon jungle with a tribal woman that has never seen a phone. I just can't deal with the drama of the modern woman.

Ultimately we do not have "trad" women anymore. What we have is women who, by extension of feminist principles, have decided in their enlightened and empowered freedom to adopt a more conservative stance.

I was briefly involved with a girl who was on the path towards Orthodoxy and had apparently renounced her feminism. But when it came to certain behaviours and ideas that I said "if you are serious about pursuing a relationship with me, you have to stop these" it was a huge drama. It was essentially just "I want to submit to a man, but only on my terms" so it went nowhere.

That is not to say I don't think there is anyone out there who is genuine in their adoption of traditional values, but we have to be cautious because every modern woman that espouses them has chosen them under the umbrella of feminism.

I don't know exactly how we can test for women who are genuine about wanting to be a submissive tradwife.

 

[Seng Hock]

Now I'm trying to meet girls the traditional way through Church, Church events, wider Orthodox events, my network within those circles etc. I also have dabbled a bit with Upward recently and I've been chatting with a girl that seems on paper to be okay. Overall, I'm just not seeing much worth pursuing. I actually already deleted the app. I just cannot take these American white girls seriously, and there's so many protestants. But there was this one which intrigued me more than any other...

When I asked my priest about this, he said that I should not be too focused on meeting women through our church. But instead try to find women outside our church and then making them part of our church. This is a good viewpoint to have, one that never crossed my mind.

For context this is in a country of 277,7 million people, Protestants accounts for 20,6 million and Catholics 8,5 million.

But the church that I attend only has a total of ~200 parishioners, and around 60 regularly attend the liturgy on Sunday. And the total numbers of people in our church in all the country accounts for only around 2.000 people (yes seriously).

As you can see barring divine intervention, it is statistically almost impossible for me to find women inside the church, and another option must be taken.

I bet you are in a kind of similar situation like me since you are Orthodox, and it will be hard to meet Orthodox women since Orthodox people are ultra minority in most cases.

 

[N°6]

For those who are not aware, a Christian Red Pill blog existed before RVF's Christening:

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/

Unfortunately there does seem to be an element of hypergamy management that is required to keep one's family intact.

From memory, items that Dalrock discussed were romantic love v covenantal love, the misinterpretation of chivalry and the denouncement of male desire from the pulpits whereas female serial monogamy is tolerated.

 

[Sandalwood Peak]

I really dont know how to phrase this and it's really hard to say this in text with no context but I have a question that's been bothering me. I know it may come off as judgemental but it's not meant to be.

Should men settle for something less than "ideal"?

 

[Lawrence87]

I really dont know how to phrase this and it's really hard to say this in text with no context but I have a question that's been bothering me. I know it may come off as judgemental but it's not meant to be.

Should men settle for something less than "ideal"?

I think this depends. There are certain things that I think men should not compromise on. I would consider these to be things like: must not be feminist, must have a good relationship with their father, must be Christian... etc.

One should also evaluate one's value as a man in realistic terms. Thankfully as men most of the things that attract women to us are things we can do something about. If you have a low-paid job you can work towards something better. If you are overweight or super skinny you can go to the gym and sort that out. However if you don't want to put in the effort, you can't expect to find the perfect woman. And being realistic doesn't involve selling yourself short either, if you have a decent job, are in good shape etc, you don't have to settle for a fat lump who is careering towards the wall at 100mph just because you don't want to be alone. The key is making an honest evaluation of yourself and how much effort you would be willing to put in to improve, and paying attention to the kinds of women who pay attention to you.

If your ideal is unrealistic for you then you should change your ideal, or make it more realistic by improving your potential to attract someone.

 

[Rax Moscow]

The idea of labeling something "red pill" meant it was just plain truth.
And a lot of the manosphere talked about "hey this is nothing new, men have known these things for ages, they have just been forgotten due to feminism and modern culture."

I think it would be interesting to compile a list of all the biblical teachings concerning women, and their implications.
I don't know if anyone has done something similar, but it would be quite a project. It would require reading the bible from the start, looking out for any direct or indirect points about the sexes.

You would end up with a lot of what the manosphere taught, without all the fornication garbage.
Actually, I know the perfect guy to do a book about this.
Paging @Rooshv