Donald Trump: Criticism & Debate Thread

[Get2choppaaa]

Righteous violence is not considered an evil at all, it's considered a duty by God. You're confusing the nature of righteous defense versus political compromise.

Righteous defense is a moral and divinely-sanctioned response to immediate and existential threats against Christian civilization, the faith, and the people. It arises from a duty to protect God’s creation, the Church, and the faithful, aligning with God’s justice and the natural law. Historical examples of this are the Crusades, the defense of Christian Europe at Tours, and many other battles like Vienna, and all the martyrs who resisted forced conversions.

Participating in a corrupt system by voting for morally compromised leaders (puppets of anti-Christian agendas) is an entirely different matter. This form of compromise amounts to consenting to be ruled by forces that oppose Christian teachings and the moral order, overtly (democrats) or subversively (republicans). Unlike righteous defense, such choices perpetuate systemic corruption, erode integrity, and normalize incremental evils. The only way forward is as a revolutionary, the most uncomfortable lifestyle that 99% of Aryan Christians are not ready for.

Righteous violence is not evil when it is sanctioned by God or directed toward the protection of His law and people. The Bible explicitly supports the use of force in certain circumstances:

Psalm 94:16: “Who will rise up for me against the wicked? Who will take a stand for me against evildoers?”

Ecclesiastes 3:8: "A time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

Psalm 146:3: “Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.” Trusting corrupt politicians, even as "lesser evils," contradicts the Biblical directive to rely on God’s providence and moral law.

Ezekiel 22:27-28: “Her officials within her are like wolves tearing their prey; they shed blood and kill people to make unjust gain.” Supporting corrupt leaders (puppets or prostitutes) entrenches unjust systems and aligns with the actions of those condemned in Scripture.

Psalm 5:5-6: “You hate all who do wrong; you destroy those who tell lies.”

Psalm 139:21-22: “Do I not hate those who hate You, Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.”

We are called to love sinners and desire their repentance, but this does not extend to tolerating or enabling those who persist in rebellion against God and His laws.

Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 2265): “Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others.” The future of the race and faith constitutes a responsibility entrusted to Christians by God.

St. Thomas Aquinas: “Hatred of the enemies of God is a form of charity because it is rooted in a desire for justice and the preservation of the common good” (Summa Theologica, II-II, Q. 25, Art. 6).

True defiance involves rejecting systems that oppose God’s law and working toward their replacement with structures rooted in divine justice.

St. Basil the Great: “The spirit of compromise is the enemy of truth. Only in the uncompromising defense of the faith does the will of God prevail.”

Under the UN definition, genocide includes not just outright killing but also:

"Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group.
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
Forcibly transferring children or undermining a group’s ability to sustain itself."

The sharp decline in the European population from 35% of the global population in 1900 to under 8% today, combined with policies encouraging mass migration, cultural dissolution, as well as marginalization and outright proscription of European identity, fits these criteria holistically. Every major government and organization is guilty of carrying out a generational genocide against Europeans, rebranded as "White" in the 20th century. Christianity historically has always been intertwined with European identity and civilization. The erosion of one entails and ensures the erosion of the other. All their efforts to dilute European culture, heritage, and values undermine not only a racial or ethnic group but also the Christian moral and spiritual framework that has underpinned Western civilization for centuries.

Therefore since we are under this direct threat, any coordinated violence for self-preservation, though illegal and unthinkable by the jewish system that rules over us, is wholly in line with scripture, the councils of the Church, and God's own Word and therefore takes precedence over any quarreling of morality. The spiritually invalid talmudic world system that is currently in place does not dictate the morals of the day, and their infusion of lies into the Church the last couple centuries through their agents of subterfuge would have every Christian believe in ethnomasochism and letting the entire heathen world ransack them at their own expense. No, there is a fury building up and it has the righteous backing of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit when it will be unleashed. When that is will be up to God. He works within each of us, and the more we pray, fast, tribe, and train, the closer that day comes when there will be no more pretenses. The mask is almost fully gone now from the devils who want us all dead.

I certainly didn't get guidance from my priests to not vote.

Which if we distill the long form text into 1 sentence is what you're suggesting.

So there's that.

 

[MusicForThePiano]

I certainly didn't get guidance from my priests to not vote.

Which if we distill the long form text into 1 sentence is what you're suggesting.

So there's that.

Well perhaps your priests need to reflect more deeply on the Catechism, which emphasizes the primacy of a well-formed conscience (CCC 1778) and the obligation to act according to it, not simply follow the status quo. Church doctrine doesn’t absolve individuals of their responsibility to discern the morality of their actions, including voting, when all choices support systems of corruption.

Reductionism into a single sentence, while convenient, is precisely the kind of thinking that leads people to accept prepackaged, compromised systems instead of envisioning and striving for something better. If the options presented are morally bankrupt, then the Christian’s duty is to reject them all outright and work toward building a replacement system rooted in God’s law and Christian virtue, not simply choosing the 'lesser evil' handed to us by society’s self-selected overlords.

CCC 1778: "Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act. He is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right.

CCC 2242: "The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel."

 

[Острог]

It's hard for me not to notice that some men on this board make Trump into a messiah bigger than Jesus Christ. This is morbid. Realign yourself with genuine church teaching before you apostatize.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Well perhaps your priests need to reflect more deeply on the Catechism, which emphasizes the primacy of a well-formed conscience (CCC 1778) and the obligation to act according to it, not simply follow the status quo. Church doctrine doesn’t absolve individuals of their responsibility to discern the morality of their actions, including voting, when all choices support systems of corruption.

Reductionism into a single sentence, while convenient, is precisely the kind of thinking that leads people to accept prepackaged, compromised systems instead of envisioning and striving for something better. If the options presented are morally bankrupt, then the Christian’s duty is to reject them all outright and work toward building a replacement system rooted in God’s law and Christian virtue, not simply choosing the 'lesser evil' handed to us by society’s self-selected overlords.

CCC 1778: "Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act. He is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right.

CCC 2242: "The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel."

Again this has not been what multiple of my priests have conveyed to me. I'll take their word and leadership over the Internet conjecture based on their Apostolic Succession.

So are you arguing that we should not vote at all?

Yes or no?

 

[Острог]

The priests have to follow Church teaching and the Saints and advise you based on that.

 

[eradicator]

It's hard for me not to notice that some men on this board make Trump into a messiah bigger than Jesus Christ. This is morbid. Realign yourself with genuine church teaching before you apostatize.

The old forum did this for Putin.

I certainly don’t see Trump as a messiah. He’s a billionaire game show host. Joined at the hip with jews and the deep state


But better than Biden and his handlers

 

[Get2choppaaa]

The priests have to follow Church teaching and the Saints and advise you based on that.

Yes..and so... My priests vote.

Please elaborate to your point as this is a non descriptive declaratory statement.

It's my one saying gravity is real therefore aviation platforms are designed to overcome vertical lift.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

The old forum did this for Putin.

I certainly don’t see Trump as a messiah. He’s a billionaire game show host. Joined at the hip with jews and the deep state


But better than Biden and his handlers

Yeah then there is the photo of Putin kissing the Quran.

Blasphemous.

 

[Острог]

Yes..and so... My priests vote.

Please elaborate to your point as this is a non descriptive declaratory statement.

It's my one saying gravity is real therefore aviation platforms are designed to overcome vertical lift.

Woe to them.

I don't need to elaborate because this sentence is self explanatory and should be perfectly understandable by an Orthodox person. If you want more words I can refer you to Fr. Heers's channel.

Where does the Church and Scripture endorse democracy as a preferred system of governance? It's monarchy all the way.

 

[budoslavic]

CCC 1778: "Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act. He is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right.

CCC 2242: "The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel."

For those who are non-Catholics and don't know the abbreviation/acronym "CCC", it stands for "Catholic Conscience Definition". My understanding is that Orthodox teaches that conscience should be informed by the wisdom of the saints and the Church's teachings rather than relying on emotion and/or individual reason.

Edit.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." - Philippians 2:12-13

"God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one." - St. John Chrysostom (Sermon on Acts 9)

 

[MusicForThePiano]

Again this has not been what multiple of my priests have conveyed to me. I'll take their word and leadership over the Internet conjecture based on their Apostolic Succession.

So are you arguing that we should not vote at all?

Yes or no?

You can't apply reductionism to everything and expect it to be clear-cut. The modern system of voting traps Christians into endorsing structures that perpetuate sin. True political engagement for Orthodox Christians and Catholics should focus on cultivating systems aligned with God’s law.

Priests are spiritual guides but are not immune to error, as shown by historical examples like the errant clergy during the iconoclastic controversies. Apostolic Succession, which is shared by both the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy, grants authority, but it does not make priests infallible. Orthodox Saints including St. John Chrysostom particularly emphasize the duty of individual conscience informed by Scripture, Church tradition, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit:

“Let everything take second place to our care of our children, our bringing them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. If from the beginning we teach them to love true wisdom, they will have greater wealth and glory than riches can provide.” (St. John Chrysostom, Homily on Ephesians)

This same principle applies to voters: discern actions in accordance with God's law rather than following human systems when those systems are corrupt or compromised.

The Orthodox Church does not endorse democracy as theologically superior or even acceptable when it undermines God's moral order. Historically, Orthodoxy views monarchy as the closest reflection of divine hierarchy:

“The kingly office is established by divine law. It derives its dignity from the Sovereign God, and it is an imitation of the authority which belongs to Him.” – St. Justinian the Great

“Monarchy has a single mind, and therefore is more harmonious with divine governance. Democracy is of man’s invention and full of passions.” – St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite

Voting in a system that promotes immoral governance and the "lesser of two evils" leads to the normalization of those evils. This is contrary to Orthodox teaching which prioritizes faithfulness over pragmatism.

Your question, “should we vote at all?” is attempting to oversimplify the issue. If no morally acceptable candidates exist, or if participation compromises one's conscience, Orthodoxy and Catholicism alike teach that abstention is valid: “When the foundations are being destroyed, what can the righteous do?” – Psalm 11:3

 

[MusicForThePiano]

For those who are non-Catholics and don't know the abbreviation/acronym "CCC", it stands for "Catholic Conscience Definition". My understanding is that Orthodox teaches that conscience should be informed by the wisdom of the saints and the Church's teachings rather than relying on emotion and/or individual reason.

Edit.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." - Philippians 2:12-13

Where are you reading that? CCC stands for Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as "Catholic Conscience Definiton." The CCC is not an arbitrary "internet conjecture" that @Get2choppaaa says it is, but a formal, comprehensive teaching document for Catholics that reflects over 2,000 years of Apostolic tradition.

Yes Orthodoxy values the wisdom of saints and the teachings of the Church for conscience, however this does not negate the active role of an individual conscience as illuminated by divine grace.

St. Theophan the Recluse writes: “Conscience is the voice of God in the soul. It is a faithful guide if it is enlightened by the teachings of the Church and the lives of the saints.” Conscience operates not as a passive receiver of instruction but as a dynamic faculty that discerns how to apply the Church’s wisdom in specific circumstances.

Orthodox teaching does not ask Christians to simply mimic the saints but to allow their wisdom to shape spiritual discernment. St. Gregory Palamas explains: “The saints reveal the uncreated light of God, which illumines the path of our lives, but we must choose to walk that path.” Tradition provides a foundation but we must still exercise judgment in the modern context, especially in situations where systems oppose God’s law and we give our consent to those systems.

Philippians 2:12-13 is about working out salvation with fear and trembling, which implies a cooperative effort with God’s grace. However, grace does not compel participation in systems inherently at odds with divine justice: Isaiah 10:1: "Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees."

Engaging with corrupt systems that perpetuate injustice weakens our cooperative work with God’s Will. St. John Chrysostom warns against such compromises: “It is not fitting for the Church to mingle in the workings of the state when the state’s ways depart from the justice of God.”
When no political option aligns with divine law, the higher duty is to abstain and seek to transform society through other means, to establish a foundation for a state that lives by Christian virtues.

"God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one." - St. John Chrysostom (Sermon on Acts 9)

This is true but it speaks to God’s respect for human freedom, it's not an endorsement of passive acquiescence to evil. St. John also writes: “When evil is allowed to persist unchallenged, it spreads like a plague. It is the duty of the righteous to rise up, not to be silent.”
The faithful are encouraged to pursue alternatives that reflect divine justice, such as fostering Christian communities that reject secular ideologies, even if on a smaller scale at first. St. Seraphim of Sarov taught: “Acquire the Spirit of Peace, and a thousand souls around you will be saved.” This implies creating a ripple effect of spiritual renewal, starting with rejecting participation in corrupted systems.

St. John Chrysostom reminds us: “The soul that has Christ does not bow to earthly kings when their rule opposes the King of Heaven.”

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Woe to them.

I don't need to elaborate because this sentence is self explanatory and should be perfectly understandable by an Orthodox person. If you want more words I can refer you to Fr. Heers's channel.

Where does the Church and Scripture endorse democracy as a preferred system of governance? It's monarchy all the way.

respectfully, are you an American? It's night and day here between which choice a responsible person who's looking out for there progeny has to make.

The monarchy discussion is not a reality in America.

This foolishness of expecting it to ever occur here is beyond a waste of time.

So your option is to do nothing and be a victim of others decisions.

Which is not an option.

It provides no utility and does nothing to ensure individuals agency is represented.

I'll be sure to tell Fr. John Whiteford next time I see him that he's in error to a couple Internet experts .

Should Orthodox Christians Vote? Two Contemporary Saints Answer

I often hear Orthodox Christians who are understandably frustrated with our political system make statements like: "Why should I vote? Wha...

fatherjohn.blogspot.com

Again, no one is saying a priest is not beyond reproach or capable of being in error.

But I'm going to take the word of multiple priests whom I have a strong relationship with who've demonstrated alignment in Faith, values, and also navigating the world over folks on the Internet trying to either way " but what about my monarchy bruh" or "Trump is 100 percent owned by the Jews so your option is to just let bad shit keep happening to you"

If that helps you guys get along in your life... Well Go with God.

But for me, I'm 100 percent aligned with taking actions that can make a modicum of impact on my life and provide a more robust opportunity for my children to be successful.

A revolution or some bullshit like that is not something we want here in America and the vast majority of people would suffer greatly.

I'd have no problem because ive seen and received deliverance through hard times... But this nonsense approach some advocate is totally disconnected with reality.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Where are you reading that? CCC stands for Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as "Catholic Conscience Definiton." The CCC is not an arbitrary "internet conjecture" that @Get2choppaaa says it is, but a formal, comprehensive teaching document for Catholics that reflects over 2,000 years of Apostolic tradition.

I don't know, nor have the inclination to rebuff your CCC teachings as they are irrelevant to me as an Orthodox Christian.

I am merely pointing out that your take IS Internet conjecture.

As is mine ....

Which doesn't mean you can't be correct. Rather I don't agree based on what you've said and Merely that it's not useful for day to day negotiations with decisions.

You're clearly a very well read guy. But may I offer that if you can't distill a thought to it's essence it's not beneficial.

If I'm reading correctly you've said that we should not be voting in 2024.

I'm saying that no Spiritual father whom was aware of the context I've been engaged in shared that.

Heck Fr. Josiah Trenham even spoke at the Young RNC.

 

[Douglas Quaid]

I agree a revolution is unlikely, but I would support it if more Americans did. We are getting to the point where nothing will seriously change without it.

In the meantime, it's best to appreciate what you can control and avoid the modern world as much as possible.

 

[Iakobos]

Righteous violence is not considered an evil at all, it's considered a duty by God. You're confusing the nature of righteous defense versus political compromise.

Righteous defense is a moral and divinely-sanctioned response to immediate and existential threats against Christian civilization, the faith, and the people. It arises from a duty to protect God’s creation, the Church, and the faithful, aligning with God’s justice and the natural law. Historical examples of this are the Crusades, the defense of Christian Europe at Tours, and many other battles like Vienna, and all the martyrs who resisted forced conversions.

Participating in a corrupt system by voting for morally compromised leaders (puppets of anti-Christian agendas) is an entirely different matter. This form of compromise amounts to consenting to be ruled by forces that oppose Christian teachings and the moral order, overtly (democrats) or subversively (republicans). Unlike righteous defense, such choices perpetuate systemic corruption, erode integrity, and normalize incremental evils. The only way forward is as a revolutionary, the most uncomfortable lifestyle that 99% of Aryan Christians are not ready for.

Righteous violence is not evil when it is sanctioned by God or directed toward the protection of His law and people. The Bible explicitly supports the use of force in certain circumstances:

Psalm 94:16: “Who will rise up for me against the wicked? Who will take a stand for me against evildoers?”

Ecclesiastes 3:8: "A time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

Psalm 146:3: “Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.” Trusting corrupt politicians, even as "lesser evils," contradicts the Biblical directive to rely on God’s providence and moral law.

Ezekiel 22:27-28: “Her officials within her are like wolves tearing their prey; they shed blood and kill people to make unjust gain.” Supporting corrupt leaders (puppets or prostitutes) entrenches unjust systems and aligns with the actions of those condemned in Scripture.

Psalm 5:5-6: “You hate all who do wrong; you destroy those who tell lies.”

Psalm 139:21-22: “Do I not hate those who hate You, Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.”

We are called to love sinners and desire their repentance, but this does not extend to tolerating or enabling those who persist in rebellion against God and His laws.

Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 2265): “Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others.” The future of the race and faith constitutes a responsibility entrusted to Christians by God.

St. Thomas Aquinas: “Hatred of the enemies of God is a form of charity because it is rooted in a desire for justice and the preservation of the common good” (Summa Theologica, II-II, Q. 25, Art. 6).

True defiance involves rejecting systems that oppose God’s law and working toward their replacement with structures rooted in divine justice.

St. Basil the Great: “The spirit of compromise is the enemy of truth. Only in the uncompromising defense of the faith does the will of God prevail.”

Under the UN definition, genocide includes not just outright killing but also:

"Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group.
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
Forcibly transferring children or undermining a group’s ability to sustain itself."

The sharp decline in the European population from 35% of the global population in 1900 to under 8% today, combined with policies encouraging mass migration, cultural dissolution, as well as marginalization and outright proscription of European identity, fits these criteria holistically. Every major government and organization is guilty of carrying out a generational genocide against Europeans, rebranded as "White" in the 20th century. Christianity historically has always been intertwined with European identity and civilization. The erosion of one entails and ensures the erosion of the other. All their efforts to dilute European culture, heritage, and values undermine not only a racial or ethnic group but also the Christian moral and spiritual framework that has underpinned Western civilization for centuries.

Therefore since we are under this direct threat, any coordinated violence for self-preservation, though illegal and unthinkable by the jewish system that rules over us, is wholly in line with scripture, the councils of the Church, and God's own Word and therefore takes precedence over any quarreling of morality. The spiritually invalid talmudic world system that is currently in place does not dictate the morals of the day, and their infusion of lies into the Church the last couple centuries through their agents of subterfuge would have every Christian believe in ethnomasochism and letting the entire heathen world ransack them at their own expense. No, there is a fury building up and it has the righteous backing of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit when it will be unleashed. When that is will be up to God. He works within each of us, and the more we pray, fast, tribe, and train, the closer that day comes when there will be no more pretenses. The mask is almost fully gone now from the devils who want us all dead.

You're missing or ignoring my point while predictably attempting to drown the discussion in a largely irrelevant wall of text.

FWIW I completely believe in righteous violence in the same of self-defense & it is the Orthodox teaching. But the Catholic teaching (presuming you represent it correctly) is missing a huge component that explains much of the evil done by said church.

In certain circumstances breaking commandments or destroying fellow humans (who are icons in the image of God), which are evil things, are RIGHT. They are not GOOD per se. The actions themselves are EVIL, but done RIGHTLY. Which is very much to Samseau's original point. The most RIGHTEOUS option available must be chosen. It may not always be GOOD in itself. I wish I remember where I read the Orthodox teachings on this topic so I could point you at it. A striking example was how a soldier coming back from a war where he had killed as part of his mission / presumably as righteously and as in self-defense on a grand scale as you describe. The priest prescribed a great repentance to him and he did not commune for some years.

You don't get a free get-out-of-jail pass spiritually just because your violent action was righteous. These actions weigh heavy on the soul indeed. They wouldn't if they were GOOD.

At any rate I could definitely see how the Catholic teaching could get folks all riled up for a good ol' fashioned crusade.

 

[analyst_green]

respectfully, are you an American? It's night and day here between which choice a responsible person who's looking out for there progeny has to make.

The monarchy discussion is not a reality in America.

This foolishness of expecting it to ever occur here is beyond a waste of time.

So your option is to do nothing and be a victim of others decisions.

Which is not an option.

It provides no utility and does nothing to ensure individuals agency is represented.

I'll be sure to tell Fr. John Whiteford next time I see him that he's in error to a couple Internet experts .

Should Orthodox Christians Vote? Two Contemporary Saints Answer

I often hear Orthodox Christians who are understandably frustrated with our political system make statements like: "Why should I vote? Wha...

fatherjohn.blogspot.com

Again, no one is saying a priest is not beyond reproach or capable of being in error.

But I'm going to take the word of multiple priests whom I have a strong relationship with who've demonstrated alignment in Faith, values, and also navigating the world over folks on the Internet trying to either way " but what about my monarchy bruh" or "Trump is 100 percent owned by the Jews so your option is to just let bad shit keep happening to you"

If that helps you guys get along in your life... Well Go with God.

But for me, I'm 100 percent aligned with taking actions that can make a modicum of impact on my life and provide a more robust opportunity for my children to be successful.

A revolution or some bullshit like that is not something we want here in America and the vast majority of people would suffer greatly.

I'd have no problem because ive seen and received deliverance through hard times... But this nonsense approach some advocate is totally disconnected with reality.

Absolutely agree with your characterization of voting. My priest says the same thing, and I trust the judgement of Elder Ephraim of Arizona and St. Paisios, both of them being contemporary saints who fully understood the problems of our times.

The way I see it, if we have a realistic chance to push back the degeneracy assailing us even just a little bit, then that should be our duty as Christians.

 

[MusicForThePiano]

You're missing or ignoring my point while predictably attempting to drown the discussion in a largely irrelevant wall of text.

Profound truths cannot always be distilled into soundbites. If a topic is worth discussing, it deserves the necessary depth and nuance to be understood correctly. To reduce everything to simplicity, especially theology, risks misunderstanding, or even distorting the truth.

FWIW I completely believe in righteous violence in the same of self-defense & it is the Orthodox teaching. But the Catholic teaching (presuming you represent it correctly) is missing a huge component that explains much of the evil done by said church.

This is incorrect. The Catholic Church has always emphasized the gravity of violent actions, even when justified, and the necessity of repentance:

Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 2312): “The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. The mere fact that war has broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties.” Also St. Augustine’s Just War Theory acknowledges that even justifiable violence is a heavy burden requiring deep reflection and particularly, repentance.

In certain circumstances breaking commandments or destroying fellow humans (who are icons in the image of God), which are evil things, are RIGHT. They are not GOOD per se. The actions themselves are EVIL, but done RIGHTLY. Which is very much to Samseau's original point. The most RIGHTEOUS option available must be chosen. It may not always be GOOD in itself. I wish I remember where I read the Orthodox teachings on this topic so I could point you at it. A striking example was how a soldier coming back from a war where he had killed as part of his mission / presumably as righteously and as in self-defense on a grand scale as you describe. The priest prescribed a great repentance to him and he did not commune for some years.

The example of a soldier being barred from communion after righteous violence does indeed align with the Orthodox understanding that such actions, though sometimes necessary, can spiritually harm the individual. However this does not mean such actions are inherently “evil.” They are morally neutral in the sense that their goodness or badness depends on intent, circumstance, and execution.

St. Basil the Great: “Our Fathers did not reckon killings committed in the course of wars as murders, and therefore allowed these warriors forgiveness.” Forgiveness here implies recognition of the act’s necessity but acknowledges the spiritual toll, requiring repentance.

Catholic teaching mirrors this understanding in its emphasis on the sacrament of confession and penance for soldiers returning from war.

You don't get a free get-out-of-jail pass spiritually just because your violent action was righteous. These actions weigh heavy on the soul indeed. They wouldn't if they were GOOD.

The framing is flawed in you're arguing that some actions are right but not good. In Orthodox and Catholic moral theology acts cannot be “right” if they are inherently “evil.” An action can only be “right” if its intent and circumstances align with divine justice.

For example, defending one’s family against an aggressor is good because it fulfills the moral duty to protect the innocent, even if it involves violence. The spiritual burden arises from the weight of taking a life, not from the act being intrinsically evil.

Catholic and Orthodox theology reject the notion of a “necessary evil.” Actions are either morally licit or illicit based on their alignment with God’s law. To label a righteous action as “evil” contradicts the very notion of divine justice:

St. Maximus the Confessor: “There is no compromise between good and evil. What aligns with God is good; what opposes Him is evil.”

At any rate I could definitely see how the Catholic teaching could get folks all riled up for a good ol' fashioned crusade.

Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy agree that even morally justified violent actions carry consequences for the soul. The difference lies in how these are expressed liturgically or pastorally (e.g., abstention from communion in Orthodoxy vs. sacramental confession in Catholicism). You seem to conflate the necessity of repentance with the idea that the action itself was evil. This is not the case. Repentance reflects humility before God and acknowledgment of the gravity of human actions, even justifiable ones.

St. John Chrysostom: “True repentance is not a regret over what was done but a resolve to become a better man.”

The Crusades were initiated as defensive wars in response to centuries of aggression and persecution against Christian lands and peoples by the Mohammedan hordes. Both Catholic and Orthodox traditions sanctioned such actions under the principle of defending the faith and preserving the faithful as evidenced by Orthodox involvement in the defense of Constantinople and Anatolia.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Profound truths cannot always be distilled into soundbites. If a topic is worth discussing, it deserves the necessary depth and nuance to be understood correctly. To reduce everything to simplicity, especially theology, risks misunderstanding, or even distorting the truth.


This is incorrect. The Catholic Church has always emphasized the gravity of violent actions, even when justified, and the necessity of repentance:

Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 2312): “The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. The mere fact that war has broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties.” Also St. Augustine’s Just War Theory acknowledges that even justifiable violence is a heavy burden requiring deep reflection and particularly, repentance.


The example of a soldier being barred from communion after righteous violence does indeed align with the Orthodox understanding that such actions, though sometimes necessary, can spiritually harm the individual. However this does not mean such actions are inherently “evil.” They are morally neutral in the sense that their goodness or badness depends on intent, circumstance, and execution.

St. Basil the Great: “Our Fathers did not reckon killings committed in the course of wars as murders, and therefore allowed these warriors forgiveness.” Forgiveness here implies recognition of the act’s necessity but acknowledges the spiritual toll, requiring repentance.

Catholic teaching mirrors this understanding in its emphasis on the sacrament of confession and penance for soldiers returning from war.


The framing is flawed in you're arguing that some actions are right but not good. In Orthodox and Catholic moral theology acts cannot be “right” if they are inherently “evil.” An action can only be “right” if its intent and circumstances align with divine justice.

For example, defending one’s family against an aggressor is good because it fulfills the moral duty to protect the innocent, even if it involves violence. The spiritual burden arises from the weight of taking a life, not from the act being intrinsically evil.

Catholic and Orthodox theology reject the notion of a “necessary evil.” Actions are either morally licit or illicit based on their alignment with God’s law. To label a righteous action as “evil” contradicts the very notion of divine justice:

St. Maximus the Confessor: “There is no compromise between good and evil. What aligns with God is good; what opposes Him is evil.”

Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy agree that even morally justified violent actions carry consequences for the soul. The difference lies in how these are expressed liturgically or pastorally (e.g., abstention from communion in Orthodoxy vs. sacramental confession in Catholicism). You seem to conflate the necessity of repentance with the idea that the action itself was evil. This is not the case. Repentance reflects humility before God and acknowledgment of the gravity of human actions, even justifiable ones.

St. John Chrysostom: “True repentance is not a regret over what was done but a resolve to become a better man.”

The Crusades were initiated as defensive wars in response to centuries of aggression and persecution against Christian lands and peoples by the Mohammedan hordes. Both Catholic and Orthodox traditions sanctioned such actions under the principle of defending the faith and preserving the faithful as evidenced by Orthodox involvement in the defense of Constantinople and Anatolia.

This is a Trump thread. Not a great crusades thread.

Though I do agree on the death to the infidels

 

[Samseau]

No, it is not false.

This is quite a neophyte take on the spiritual state of the world. Refusing to participate and refusing to choose in the lesser of two evils most certainly follows the teachings of Christ, whereas participation and active volition in them is the one that does not follow His teachings.

To choose any form of evil, even a lesser one, is to participate in its perpetuation. This violates the moral principle articulated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "One may never do evil so that good may result from it" (CCC 1756).

Earth is a place of pilgrimage and testing, where Christians are called to grow in virtue and prepare for eternal life in Heaven. Compromising with evil undermines this purpose. Matthew 5:48: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Jesus does not lower the standard for Christians just because Earth is imperfect. Your argument presumes that because perfection is unattainable on Earth, lesser evils must be tolerated. This is a pragmatic view, not a Christian one.

St. Paul explicitly condemns this reasoning: "And why not do evil that good may come? As some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just" (Romans 3:8). Choosing any evil, even under pragmatic circumstances, betrays fidelity to the Gospel's call to absolute righteousness. Practical decisions sometimes involve mitigating harm, they must not lead to active endorsement of evil. Compromise in morality erodes the foundation of Christian civilization.

The Church’s role is not only to engage with society but also to hold all leaders accountable, regardless of lesser or greater evil. Incrementalism cannot replace prophetic witness.

What do the saints say?

St. John Chrysostom: "A small evil tolerated opens the door to greater ones. He who seeks Heaven must walk steadfastly in the way of Christ, not the crooked paths of expediency."

St. Augustine described Earth as a "battlefield of the two cities" the City of God and the City of Man. While Christians live amid this struggle, they are called to align with the City of God, rejecting even partial allegiance to the City of Man.

St. Basil the Great: "Compromise with sin, no matter how small, is the first step toward the soul’s destruction." St. Basil also said "He who deliberately chooses evil for the sake of some temporal good denies the eternal good."

St. Thomas Aquinas argued that unjust laws or leaders are not binding in conscience: "Human law has the nature of law insofar as it is in accord with right reason, and therefore derives from the eternal law. But when a law is contrary to reason, it is called an unjust law, and has the character not of law but of violence" (Summa Theologica, I-II, q. 93, a. 3). By extension we as Christians should not endorse unjust leaders and their unjust servants even as a lesser evil.

The true betrayal of Christ lies in choosing expediency over fidelity, even in a fallen world. By refusing to choose evil, no matter the circumstances, we align ourselves with the eternal Kingdom of God and fulfill our calling as followers of Christ.

Utterly irrelevant, and you completely fail to understand every one of those quotes, all of which have to do with individual agency, and not political matters, which involve collective compromise.

This is why Jesus said to pay taxes, even though taxes were being paid to completely evil men. Did Jesus break his own commandments? Did Christ not say, "Resist not evil?"

Thus, we ourselves are not called to resist evil, or stand in its way, or judge others who commit evil. We pay taxes hoping they are used for good, even when they are not. This is because these actions involve the volition and agency of many other people, outside of our control. We will not be judged for the actions others commit.

When it comes to our own actions, we do no evil. At least, that's the goal, as no one actually is sinless. With our own actions, which involve our immediate sphere of control, we try to be perfect.

But when it comes to politics, which isn't in any way or shape under our control, we simply accept that this world is controlled by Satan, who is the prince, and we do what we can. Expediency is all there is in politics, since the Kingdom of Heaven has not arrived. We live with fallen humans who will sin, and they will do terrible things. All we can do is try to work with the least sinful among us.

Not only is it against the commands of Christ to try an enforce a perfect political order in this world, but it is straight up impossible. There is no utopia on this earth, and the entire point of "City of God" sailed right over your head. St. Augustine's point is that God's Kingdom is not of this world, so we can deduce that human politics can only be expedient.

Human politics is a battle between Good and Evil, as Augustine writes, and therefore we push the war in a direction towards God, by choosing the lesser of evils each and every time. It is a war, fought over millions of battles, and in each battle you take what you have in order to win with what you can.