carnivore diet discussion thread

[chance vought]

Agriculture has only existed for 8,000 years. What do you think our ancestors were eating before then?

In the very small window of time that airplanes allowed access to remote tribes, but were not sophisticated enough to transport agricultural products to remote areas, Weston A. Price travelled the world to study the diets of these people. They got 90-100% of their calories from animal meat, fat, and organs. They were taller, more muscular, with straight teeth and nearly 0 cavities (he was a dentist.) compared to “civilized” people.

Plants are mostly undigestible fiber and nutrient poor. Ungulates have 4 chambered stomachs designed to use bacteria to ferment them into something useful…this digestive system is large, and complex, requiring a large liver capable of producing many compounds necessary to reduce the toxicity of plant defense chemicals.
The herbivore digestive system is metabolically expensive.

Humans have a metabolically expensive organ: the brain. As brains became larger (from consuming animal fat), the human digestive system became necessarily smaller. An animal with a large brain and metabolically expensive digestive system would need to consume huge amounts of calories to survive. But an animal smart enough to cooperate and hunt meat doesn’t need a complex digestive system - and can consume large amounts of calories in a shorter time period, optimizing for survival.

 

[Australia Sucks]

Agriculture has only existed for 8,000 years. What do you think our ancestors were eating before then?

In the very small window of time that airplanes allowed access to remote tribes, but were not sophisticated enough to transport agricultural products to remote areas, Weston A. Price travelled the world to study the diets of these people. They got 90-100% of their calories from animal meat, fat, and organs. They were taller, more muscular, with straight teeth and nearly 0 cavities (he was a dentist.) compared to “civilized” people.

Plants are mostly undigestible fiber and nutrient poor. Ungulates have 4 chambered stomachs designed to use bacteria to ferment them into something useful…this digestive system is large, and complex, requiring a large liver capable of producing many compounds necessary to reduce the toxicity of plant defense chemicals.
The herbivore digestive system is metabolically expensive.

Humans have a metabolically expensive organ: the brain. As brains became larger (from consuming animal fat), the human digestive system became necessarily smaller. An animal with a large brain and metabolically expensive digestive system would need to consume huge amounts of calories to survive. But an animal smart enough to cooperate and hunt meat doesn’t need a complex digestive system - and can consume large amounts of calories in a shorter time period, optimizing for survival.

Many tribal people also eat a huge amount of fruit (and sometimes wild tubers also) depending on the region they live in. Tribal diets vary a lot by region. Tribal people eat what is available to them.

Besides wild animals are not the same as farmed animals. Also tribal people had more nose to tail eating rather than just eating steaks, etc different nutrition profile.

 

[chance vought]

Many tribal people also eat a huge amount of fruit (and sometimes wild tubers also) depending on the region they live in. Tribal diets vary a lot by region. Tribal people eat what is available to them.

Besides wild animals are not the same as farmed animals. Also tribal people had more nose to tail eating rather than just eating steaks, etc different nutrition profile.

Agree with you on nose to tail…not so much on eating wild fruit and tubers. I’m not sure where you live, but most places have very little wild fruit or tubers in enough quantity to support human life. Most wild fruit is so tiny, it’s not worth the calories expended to gather it. You could spend 10 hours a day, every day gathering, and still starve to death…or hunt/fish for 5 hours a week.

If you’ve spent much time in the wild, it is truly eye opening how pretty much the only thing edible in any abundance, is running around on four legs or swimming.

 

[Australia Sucks]

The diets of prehistoric humans is controversial and there some anthropologists that make the argument that humans (at least in the warmer climates) got more of their calories from plant foods than they did from meat. I am not sure how true the argument is but we certainly know that Cavemen ate fruit (the question is what percentage of their diet it comprised which is controversial) And fruit doesn't have the same digestion issues as herbs, vegetables, etc. Because plants want you to eat the fruit to disperse the seeds so there are generally not the defense mechanisms against animals eating fruit compared to herbs/plants, etc.

 

[chance vought]

The diets of prehistoric humans is controversial and there some anthropologists that make the argument that humans (at least in the warmer climates) got more of their calories from plant foods than they did from meat. I am not sure how true the argument is but we certainly know that Cavemen ate fruit (the question is what percentage of their diet it comprised which is controversial) And fruit doesn't have the same digestion issues as herbs, vegetables, etc. Because plants want you to eat the fruit to disperse the seeds so there are generally not the defense mechanisms against animals eating fruit compared to herbs/plants, etc.

In one region: the tropics. I’ve never been to the tropics, but I imagine one could live off the plants there year round. Everywhere else, there just isn’t much, or any calories available from plants (or barely any plants at all).

 

[Australia Sucks]

In one region: the tropics. I’ve never been to the tropics, but I imagine one could live off the plants there year round. Everywhere else, there just isn’t much, or any calories available from plants (or barely any plants at all).

Even in the cold countries of Europe they have there own fruits (mostly berries). For example in Sweden its common as a hobby for people to go foraging for for wild Loganberries, Lindenberries, Raspberries, Blueberries, Cloudberries, etc and they make jams, juices and all sorts of other things from them. Mushroom foraging is also a common hobby in many European countries. Unless you are an eskimo living in Alaska most places have a decent amount of wild plant based food to eat.

 

[chance vought]

Even in the cold countries of Europe they have there own fruits (mostly berries). For example in Sweden its common as a hobby for people to go foraging for for wild Loganberries, Lindenberries, Raspberries, Blueberries, Cloudberries, etc and they make jams, juices and all sorts of other things from them. Mushroom foraging is also a common hobby in many European countries.

Yes, but no one could survive long on that in July or August in those places, not to even mention January. The caloric value is extremely low, and even if there was an abundant enough supply, the nutrient deficiency would be deadly. 95% of their calories came from reindeer and fish I would wager.

 

[Douglas Quaid]

I could be pretty happy living off reindeer, fish and berries.

Fruit is great for when you're being active, or adding something else to a diet focusing on meat. I treat it like desert sometimes too. But I would never want to focus my diet around plants. That sounds miserable, especially with vegetables.

I basically treat meat and eggs like a long-term energy source, and fruit/honey for shorter-term goals.

 

[Australia Sucks]

Hunter-gatherers were mostly gatherers, says archaeologist

Researchers reject ‘macho caveman’ stereotype after burial site evidence suggests mostly plant-based diet

www.theguardian.com

Early human hunter-gatherers ate mostly plants and vegetables, according to archeological findings that undermine the commonly held view that our ancestors lived on a high protein, meat-heavy diet.

The evidence, from the remains of 24 individuals from two burial sites in the Peruvian Andes dating to between 9,000 and 6,500 years ago, suggests that wild potatoes and other root vegetables may have been a dominant source of nutrition before the shift to an agricultural lifestyle.

“Conventional wisdom holds that early human economies focused on hunting – an idea that has led to a number of high-protein dietary fads such as the paleo diet,” said Dr Randy Haas, an archeologist at the University of Wyoming and senior author of the paper. “Our analysis shows that the diets were composed of 80% plant matter and 20% meat.”

 

[Australia Sucks]

Yes, but no one could survive long on that in July or August in those places, not to even mention January. The caloric value is extremely low, and even if there was an abundant enough supply, the nutrient deficiency would be deadly. 95% of their calories came from reindeer and fish I would wager.

What you are saying sounds very logical but I think it would be best to see solid evidence before we jump to any conclusions.

 

[chance vought]

Hunter-gatherers were mostly gatherers, says archaeologist

Researchers reject ‘macho caveman’ stereotype after burial site evidence suggests mostly plant-based diet

www.theguardian.com

Early human hunter-gatherers ate mostly plants and vegetables, according to archeological findings that undermine the commonly held view that our ancestors lived on a high protein, meat-heavy diet.

The evidence, from the remains of 24 individuals from two burial sites in the Peruvian Andes dating to between 9,000 and 6,500 years ago, suggests that wild potatoes and other root vegetables may have been a dominant source of nutrition before the shift to an agricultural lifestyle.

“Conventional wisdom holds that early human economies focused on hunting – an idea that has led to a number of high-protein dietary fads such as the paleo diet,” said Dr Randy Haas, an archeologist at the University of Wyoming and senior author of the paper. “Our analysis shows that the diets were composed of 80% plant matter and 20% meat.”

A tiny sample size in one place though. I love the "male bias towards macho hunting is why previous findings were wrong" thrown in for good measure.

If someone wants to live on an 80% plant diet, and be a less intelligent, more obedient slave with lower testosterone, follow the government dietary advice, individuals can make their own choices!

Show me someone on a carnivore diet with type 2 diabetes...that's all the evidence I need.

 

[Australia Sucks]

A tiny sample size in one place though. I love the "male bias towards macho hunting is why previous findings were wrong" thrown in for good measure.

If someone wants to live on an 80% plant diet, and be a less intelligent, more obedient slave with lower testosterone, follow the government dietary advice, individuals can make their own choices!

Show me someone on a carnivore diet with type 2 diabetes...that's all the evidence I need.

I am just trying to make the point that its not that clear cut at this stage what people ate in pre-civilization times.

 

[chance vought]

I am just trying to make the point that its not that clear cut at this stage what people ate in pre-civilization times.

I agree, maybe a plant heavy diet was possible or even likely in the tropics, but I don't think it was anywhere else...but even amazon tribes I've seen on documentaries are mainly hunting monkeys with poison darts, not eating roots.

 

[Batman]

One thing I hate about carnivore: it's boring. I don't know if it's really a great idea long-term but doing it for a few months at a time certainly had positive results for me.

Anyway, relating to the discussion around vegetables, I find it really interesting and the basic argument against plants makes total sense. But I have to wonder, haven't we been selectively breeding vegetables for a long time? Fruits and vegetables that humans cultivate barely resemble anything in the wild - are the self-defense toxins in plants still there to a significant degree?

I haven't watched this video and I'm not familar with the channel but I saw it on my homepage, might be worth a watch if you've already watched stuff from Shawn Baker, Paul Saladino, etc.

 

[Douglas Quaid]

I can't remember the last time I had a vegetable. Don't see anything wrong with eating them but have no desire to.

Carnivore is boring but eating a heavy meat and eggs diet is a lot easier if you add a couple more things you like. I think fruit is a perfect combo for it.

I've been eating 6-12 eggs daily. Seems excessive but I crave them and feel great.

 

[Australia Sucks]

One thing I hate about carnivore: it's boring. I don't know if it's really a great idea long-term but doing it for a few months at a time certainly had positive results for me.

Anyway, relating to the discussion around vegetables, I find it really interesting and the basic argument against plants makes total sense. But I have to wonder, haven't we been selectively breeding vegetables for a long time? Fruits and vegetables that humans cultivate barely resemble anything in the wild - are the self-defense toxins in plants still there to a significant degree?

I haven't watched this video and I'm not familar with the channel but I saw it on my homepage, might be worth a watch if you've already watched stuff from Shawn Baker, Paul Saladino, etc.

Vegetables and herbs tend to have anti-nutrients whereas fruits generally don't have them, because fruits want to be eaten so the seeds can spread and they can reproduce.

Also the guys argument against vegetables is not giving the full picture. A low level of anti-nutrients can have a beneficial hormetic stress effect.

 

[chance vought]

The problem with it being “boring” is all perception. When did food become entertainment? I guess historically the entertainment was from hunting it, not eating it.

Think of it as getting the best nourishment to be as alert and present as you can, and enjoy other things in life besides food.

 

[Batman]

Vegetables and herbs tend to have anti-nutrients whereas fruits generally don't have them, because fruits want to be eaten so the seeds can spread and they can reproduce.

Also the guys argument against vegetables is not giving the full picture. A low level of anti-nutrients can have a beneficial hormetic stress effect.

My point was just that the modern produce does not resemble what looks like in the wild. Fruits, in nature, have far, far more seeds, more starch, and less sugar/fructose than ones we cultivate. So I just have to wonder if the vegetables have less toxins, too.

The problem with it being “boring” is all perception. When did food become entertainment? I guess historically the entertainment was from hunting it, not eating it.

Think of it as getting the best nourishment to be as alert and present as you can, and enjoy other things in life besides food.

Yes that's just it though, we're not hunting our food we're going to stores and buying it. The meal itself was enjoyable because of what it represented and what went into getting it. In modern times, this isn't relevant anymore. I'm not one to say food needs to be extravagent or anything but it does get real old because pure carnivore severely limits what you can eat.

 

[Australia Sucks]

My point was just that the modern produce does not resemble what looks like in the wild. Fruits, in nature, have far, far more seeds, more starch, and less sugar/fructose than ones we cultivate. So I just have to wonder if the vegetables have less toxins, too.


Yes that's just it though, we're not hunting our food we're going to stores and buying it. The meal itself was enjoyable because of what it represented and what went into getting it. In modern times, this isn't relevant anymore. I'm not one to say food needs to be extravagent or anything but it does get real old because pure carnivore severely limits what you can eat.

The same arguments can be extended to eating meat. How many people are hunting wild deer or wild bears or wild bison? Cows and chickens are modem animals that have been bred by humans to be a certain way. They have a different nutrition profile than wild animals. And that's not even getting into the discussion about farming practices and if livestock are fed with grain and pumped with antibiotics. Even with grass fed cows they don't get the variety in their diet that wild animals get. Also the act of grilling and frying meat depending on how its done can introduce carcinogens, traditional societies mostly boiled there meat or slow cooked it near open flames.

 

[Batman]

The same arguments can be extended to eating meat. How many people are hunting wild deer or wild bears or wild bison? Cows and chickens are modem animals that have been bred by humans to be a certain way. They have a different nutrition profile than wild animals. And that's not even getting into the discussion about farming practices and if livestock are fed with grain and pumped with antibiotics. Even with grass fed cows they don't get the variety in their diet that wild animals get. Also the act of grilling and frying meat depending on how its done can introduce carcinogens, traditional societies mostly boiled there meat or slow cooked it near open flames.

This makes me wonder why fish-based diets haven't caught on more. I know there's a lot of contimination in the ocean but some fish are much cleaner than others depending on where and what they eat. I know that sardines for instance are very clean and I would consider them a superfood but I rarely hear of anyone eating them. I find it puzzling that seafood is rarely even talked about within the context of carnivore.