Bitcoin and Crypto Thread

The whole Bitcoin Network doesn't even need to go down. For example you could be in a country at war and the borders could be locked down due to martial law etc and meanwhile there are grid outages due to bombing or EMP warfare, cyber hacks, etc. So yes the network might still be functional and operational in other countries but for the meantime you are locked out of it due to not having electricity/internet access. In the meantime if you have a stash of gold and silver coins you can use them to buy what you need (assuming fiat has collapsed in your country due to the war situation or bank accounts are frozen, etc). That is just one possible scenario.

And for example if you know you are going to end up in a very remote and isolated place gold can be useful. Even a member of a tribe deep in the Amazon forest likely knows what gold is and knows its highly valuable. Gold has more than 5000 years of general acceptance by humans and that is something valuable in and of itself.
1) Yet Bitcoin would still function. You are omitting the 4 Blockstream satellites with worldwide coverage, and starlink…not only that, but even if you didn’t have a satellite receiver, you can use physical Bitcoin using opendime or a satscard.

2) I’m not staying in a war torn country, or with no internet, or electricity or whatever catastrophic failure.…I’m leaving with my wealth intact. If borders are closed, I don't have a problem getting out with my family - I have a plan for that very scenario. Staying in the foreign country is a whole other problem, but Bitcoin works for that...cash or gold, can be confiscated at the border by the guys with guns. Bitcoin requires a negotiation, and they have no idea how much or how little I have.

Do you think people in Ukraine are running around with silver coins buying things from one another?
Which is the better option, fleeing to Poland with your family and your wealth in Bitcoin, or staying in Ukraine hoping someone will sell you enough potatoes for your silver eagles that you won't starve to death?
 
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Why are people still shilling for Bitcoin by highlighting the weaknesses of the USD and fiat generally? How is there no understanding that these are two completely different things? Just because one thing is flawed, does not logically imply that another thing is superior or more valuable. As I've pointed out repeatedly, due to its inherent technical limitations and design, Bitcoin fails abysmally as a currency. It can in no way replace the function of a major global currency, much less a world reserve currency like the USD. Thus, its only conceivable value is as a "digital asset". And as a digital asset that is technically no different than (or even inferior to) hundreds of other competing cryptos, it's "value" is therefore entirely derived solely from its popularity.

So quite literally, Bitcoin will have value for only as long as people believe it has value. And the only reason people believe it has value to begin with is because they are convinced that when they buy it, they will one day be able to sell it to someone else for more than they paid for it. This is a faith-based investment strategy, a greater fool asset, a decentralized Ponzi scheme and a self-brainwashing cult all rolled into one. It's why these Bitcoin zealots come across as such fanatics: because sheer delusional belief is literally the only thing keeping wind in Bitcoin's sails.
 
Just because one thing is flawed, does not logically imply that another thing is superior or more valuable.
Correct. That's not why BTC is superior, nor why we say it is superior, so your point is irrelevant. The reason more and more people join the network is because fiat keeps debasing, and faster than ever. Don't hate BTC for that, it does provide the solution, even if you keep your hands over your eyes or ears.
And as a digital asset that is technically no different than (or even inferior to) hundreds of other competing cryptos, it's "value" is therefore entirely derived solely from its popularity.
Then why is BTC the biggest most secure network and why does it outperform all the others, if it's "technically" no different?
So quite literally, Bitcoin will have value for only as long as people believe it has value.
You mean like all fiat? That quite literally is paper backed by nothing? Interesting.

If you do think the US has the most gold (I'm inclined to believe that is a high probability) all that means is that its fiat is backed by something that is real/is an energy based representation that has monetary properties. Since BTC is better than gold, it stands to reason that the next world reserve, or the continuation of the dollar as world reserve currency, will be increasingly backed by BTC.
 
Scorpion your timing for making the case against crypto is off. I mean the past few days we are looking at signals that the bounce likely happened earlier this month for both btc and alt coins

In early August btc dropped from 69k to 49k in just a few days, the chart since then looks very very healthy. And alt coins are responding as well.

No one knows, right now, just how big of a bull run we get. But a lot of the charts are looking very very healthy


Here is the one year chart on solana

IMG_5019.png

And the all time chart for solana going back to 2020

IMG_5020.png


The question a lot of us are asking, is , what is going to be the next solana?


While the chart is looking very healthy, mostly because of the utility and popular coins on the solana chain , we want to buy the next solana, not the next cardano

IMG_5018.png

Here is the chart for kaspa, probably the healthiest chart in all of crypto, overall easy to mine, more energy efficient and therefore one of the most promising ecosystems of the new coins

IMG_5018.png


Here is the one year chart for bittensor tao for the past year, it has looked very healthy from the start and also the past week/ month

IMG_5021.png

As mentioned there will be a lot of losers in crypto. Let’s take a look at cardano . There are a staggering number of cardano bag holders who will never break even on the money they put into buying cardano


IMG_5022.png


Instead of making the case that “crypto is a bad investment, Bitcoin has no real utility compared to other commodities “, if you really want to warn someone about crypto currency, tell them to have a 2 minute conversation (or longer, however long), with a cardano bag holder and how much money they are down from buying cardano
 
Why are people still shilling for Bitcoin by highlighting the weaknesses of the USD and fiat generally? How is there no understanding that these are two completely different things? Just because one thing is flawed, does not logically imply that another thing is superior or more valuable. As I've pointed out repeatedly, due to its inherent technical limitations and design, Bitcoin fails abysmally as a currency. It can in no way replace the function of a major global currency, much less a world reserve currency like the USD. Thus, its only conceivable value is as a "digital asset". And as a digital asset that is technically no different than (or even inferior to) hundreds of other competing cryptos, it's "value" is therefore entirely derived solely from its popularity.

So quite literally, Bitcoin will have value for only as long as people believe it has value. And the only reason people believe it has value to begin with is because they are convinced that when they buy it, they will one day be able to sell it to someone else for more than they paid for it. This is a faith-based investment strategy, a greater fool asset, a decentralized Ponzi scheme and a self-brainwashing cult all rolled into one. It's why these Bitcoin zealots come across as such fanatics: because sheer delusional belief is literally the only thing keeping wind in Bitcoin's sails.

Sorry @scorpion but you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. You say Bitcoin has technical limitations and can’t replace currencies…what limitations, exactly? It works better, faster, and with 1000x less friction than any kind of payment system! It’s a better way to save too! I know eventually people will wake up and realize it’s worthless, but in the meantime, I’ll just enjoy saving my wealth, having it out of reach of everyone but me, and being able to spend it anywhere in the world, instantly. You don’t use it so how can you know the technical limitations? You are regurgitating state media propaganda.

Recent example. I recently found an artist on NOSTR, and had her do a portrait of my dog, based on pictures. I paid her with bitcoin instantly. And she lives in the UK! No middle man, no website, just a woman on NOSTR showcasing her talents. She didn’t have to send me a Bitcoin address, I just zapped some sats to her using her Lightning address, like an email. No 6% fee from PayPal, nothing, it cost 1 sats to send the payment. 1/20th of a cent.

Everything has value because people believe it does…value comes from human preferences! Some people value money that is outside of governments and can’t be debased. More will value those traits as time marches on.
 
Correct. That's not why BTC is superior, nor why we say it is superior, so your point is irrelevant. The reason more and more people join the network is because fiat keeps debasing, and faster than ever. Don't hate BTC for that, it does provide the solution, even if you keep your hands over your eyes or ears.
A debasing fiat currency does not automatically give Bitcoin value as an asset. You guys continue to play this game of portraying Bitcoin as both an asset as a currency as it suits you, thinking this is a clever rhetorical strategy. In reality, you're actually pulling the wool over your own eyes.
Then why is BTC the biggest most secure network and why does it outperform all the others, if it's "technically" no different?
Because of first mover advantage, and because guys like you have convinced themselves that your Bitcoin will be more valuable than it is today in the future. That's literally it.
You mean like all fiat? That quite literally is paper backed by nothing? Interesting.

If you do think the US has the most gold (I'm inclined to believe that is a high probability) all that means is that its fiat is backed by something that is real/is an energy based representation that has monetary properties. Since BTC is better than gold, it stands to reason that the next world reserve, or the continuation of the dollar as world reserve currency, will be increasingly backed by BTC.
Again I must note the shifting goalposts here. You guys like to claim that Bitcoin is the ultimate stateless, decentralized currency/asset, while now also trumpeting that it will be the basis of a new world reserve currency. Huh?

Also, the idea that powerful governments will give up control of their currencies is a complete pipe dream. A total fantasy.
Scorpion your timing for making the case against crypto is off. I mean the past few days we are looking at signals that the bounce likely happened earlier this month for both btc and alt coins
I don't see anything wrong with people gambling on shitcoins as long as they know what they're getting into and are aware of the risks. I have a much bigger problem with Bitcoin, because people actually seem to take Bitcoin seriously. It's the only crypto that literally has a pseudo-religious cult built around it. And it's the crypto that is eventually going to cause the most harm to the most people when it inevitably collapses.
Sorry @scorpion but you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. You say Bitcoin has technical limitations and can’t replace currencies…what limitations, exactly?
Come on, man. Don't bullshit me. You know very well the limitations of Bitcoin as a currency. How about this, for starters:
  • Zero privacy
  • Zero fraud protection
  • Extremely complicated for the average user (especially to use securely/off exchange)
  • Completely reliant on Lightning network and other layer 2 add-ons to be remotely functional
  • Deflationary by nature - good for an asset, horrible for a currency intended to be spent
 
1) Yet Bitcoin would still function. You are omitting the 4 Blockstream satellites with worldwide coverage, and starlink…not only that, but even if you didn’t have a satellite receiver, you can use physical Bitcoin using opendime or a satscard.

2) I’m not staying in a war torn country, or with no internet, or electricity or whatever catastrophic failure.…I’m leaving with my wealth intact. If borders are closed, I don't have a problem getting out with my family - I have a plan for that very scenario. Staying in the foreign country is a whole other problem, but Bitcoin works for that...cash or gold, can be confiscated at the border by the guys with guns. Bitcoin requires a negotiation, and they have no idea how much or how little I have.

Do you think people in Ukraine are running around with silver coins buying things from one another?
Which is the better option, fleeing to Poland with your family and your wealth in Bitcoin, or staying in Ukraine hoping someone will sell you enough potatoes for your silver eagles that you won't starve to death?
So in your mind there are absolutely no scenarios in which physical precious metals are more useful then Bitcoin? It seems like a lack of imagination.
 
Come on, man. Don't bullshit me. You know very well the limitations of Bitcoin as a currency. How about this, for starters:
  • Zero privacy
  • Zero fraud protection
  • Extremely complicated for the average user (especially to use securely/off exchange)
  • Completely reliant on Lightning network and other layer 2 add-ons to be remotely functional
  • Deflationary by nature - good for an asset, horrible for a currency intended to be spent
Zero privacy: coinjoin on base chain…Lightning? More private than monero

Fraud protection: this is a banking function - you can certainly have a middleman to give you that, (a Bitcoin bank) for a fee. Final settlement is just that, final. You cannot have both final settlement and chargebacks.

Completely lightning reliant?: no, dude, someone moved HALF A BILLION DOLLARS on bitcoin for 92 cents….it won’t always be that cheap, but you claim it’s useless now…Lightning is useful for small transactions $.001 to $2000 currently, base chain for larger. The numbers will change as transaction fees get more expensive, but the fees are a market…a free market, meaning it never breaks.

Deflationary: only a problem if you are indoctrinated in Keynesian Econ, which solely exists to brainwash people into thinking inflation theft and government counterfeiting is good for them.
IMG_2167.jpeg

I’ve given you many examples of me using Bitcoin, not because I want to, but because it is easier, cheaper, or literally the only way possible for me to buy what I want.
 
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Not sure why the hate for lightning? It’s not a sidechain, shitcoin on Bitcoin or anything like that…it’s an on chain multi-sig bitcoin transaction. With the taproot upgrade, that multi-sig contract looks exactly like a single sig transaction: no one can tell if you are sending on chain transactions or opening lightning channels.
 
As far as complicated to use, UX…how easy was it to use the internet in 1993? There was no google, only rudimentary webrings…now a 5 year old who can’t even write can use text to speech and browse the web.

Don’t you think Bitcoin will continue to improve, just like the internet?
 
So in your mind there are absolutely no scenarios in which physical precious metals are more useful then Bitcoin? It seems like a lack of imagination.
Fiat is better in every way, except as savings. Much more divisible, more transportable (can use it on the internet). Fiat money took over from precious metals - its a technology step backwards.

Bitcoin has the savings advantages of precious metals, (but better), and the transportability advantages of Fiat (but better).
 
I read the article. Sure its technically possible to use Bitcoin without internet but its not really convenient especially in a disaster scenario. For example sending SMS, what if there are grid outages and there is no electricity or cell phone towers have been bombed, etc? Then SMS won't work. And who even has or uses radio anymore. It said in the article satellites can only receive Bitcoin besides its not something everyone has access to.

I am just saying that realistically there may be certain scenarios where its easy and convenient to just pull out your bag of silver eagles and barter some silver for stuff you that you need.

Not saying you shouldn't own Bitcoin but it doesn't hurt to own a little bit of physical gold and silver on the side to cover certain scenarios.

The other good thing about Gold and Silver is that they have industrial value so even if they somehow lose monetary value or get demonetized or we move to a crises scenario world where barter is the norm they are still useful as industrial commodities and therefore still retain some barter value. Gold can be used as jewellery, in dentistry, in electronics as a conductive metal, in food as a decoration, etc. Silver is used in electronics, in Jewellery, in the healthcare industry, in solar panels, in electronics, etc.

If you want to hold industrial or agricultural commodities to hedge against inflation or use as a bartering instrument in the future there are usually problems. Storage, durability, etc. For example Copper has a very low price per kilo so one tonne of copper is around $9200 USD so it would take a lot of storage space to store copper. Oil has a limited lifespan and needs to be stored in special and expensive facilities, wheat can spoil after a few years and again needs a lot of space to store, etc. Gold, Silver, Platinum and Palladium (i.e. precious metals) are really the only commodities which the average person can easily and conveniently store.

Also the fact that Bitcoin is pure monetary premium is a double edged sword because yes under the right conditions it puts more upward pressure on the price but on the other hand if a better form of money or monetary asset, etc is invented and adopted Bitcoin will become worthless whereas even if gold and silver become completely demonetized they will still have some value due to the industrial value so there is a floor on the downside they cannot go to zero.

Its like with stocks if there are two companies and one is asset heavy and earns a modest return on equity and the second company is asset light, has assets which are not really saleable in a downside scenario and has huge good will earning massive returns on equity.

Lets say the first company is a real estate company that land banks land and develops the land into family homes, industrial warehouses etc. Lets assume this company earns a 12% return on equity. The second company is a small software company producing niche business enterprise software and earns a 40% return on equity.

In general the second company (the software company) is going to be more profitable to own and is going to give you higher ROI, produce higher earnings growth and pay higher dividends. However if a new competitor releases a vastly superior competing software product and eats all their market share the company is going to be worthless and its assets are not going to be saleable. its value could drop to zero. Whereas the first company (real estate company) even if it goes through a rough patch and can no longer develop property profitably at least you know the assets (land, buildings, etc) still have value and can be liquidated and you can get your money back.
 
Just like if you own a credit card you should still have physical cash in your wallet in case you walk into a shop and there EFTPOS terminal is down (I have seen it happen plenty of times) if you own Bitcoin you should also own a bit of gold and silver just in case there are scenarios where its not convenient to use your Bitcoin.

There are a lot of people that argue we should get rid of physical cash because its expensive to maintain cash usage and its an outdated technology but I still haven't seen any realistic answers from these people about what to do when the EFTPOs terminal goes down, or internet somewhere has a temporary outage or a big company (Mastercard, Visa, Apple, etc) have temporary problems due to hacker attacks or other issues. Just like physical cash is a good backup for electronic fiat, physical precious metals are a good backup for Bitcoin.

In a crises scenario the 80 year old farmer in rural Bulgaria might not be too keen on accepting Bitcoin as payment from you but he will likely happily accept your silver coins as payment for the eggs and potatoes he is providing you.
 
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