Martial Arts/MMA Thread

[MacManus]

I personally train BJJ 3-4x/week and Muay Thai/MMA 1x. All men who are physically able to do so should train some form of martial arts and ideally get a level of baseline competence in both striking and grappling (and by "physically able" I mean "don't have some sort of permanent disability that precludes it"; if you're 300lbs and at the beginning of your self improvement journey don't fall into the "I'll start training once I'm in better shape" trap--start now, supplement with lifting and cardio, and you'll be surprised how quickly your fitness comes together).

We can use this thread to discuss training, talk about pro fights, if you're traveling and looking for a gym to drop in at post the location you're going to and if there are any CiKers there they can shoot you a DM (don't advise posting your actual location publicly).

I'll copy and paste the first post from TravelerKai's martial arts datasheet on RVF from June 2016 (entire thread is worth a read but not sure how long Roosh is planning to keep the board up) which was one of the best posts and threads on the old board....some of the stuff he talks about with Chinese martial arts comes off a bit woo-woo and but 90-95% of it is great info especially for those who are starting from a knowledge baseline of zero.

Too many characters for one post so splitting into 2, will continue in first reply.

TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet

My background: I hold black belts in the following styles: Kenpo, Japanese Ju Jitsu, Judo, and Brazilian JiuJitsu. I have over ten years of Traditional Muay Thai experience and training. I am a former Mixed Martial Arts fighter. I have trained and coached Amateur and Professional Mixed Martial Arts fighters for over 8 years. I have experience in Chinese Martial Arts (Wu Shu, animal systems, Sanda, San Shou). I have a red belt in Tae Kwon Do. I have had training in Eskrima and Arnis, Silat, and CQC (Close Quarter Combat). I have also trained enlisted military up to special forces members in knife fighting. I will not be describing my linages, associations, pro fighters, and students in detail to prevent getting doxed. I have other training in some other systems but if I reveal those, I can be doxed easily for that as well, so I will have to leave those out as well.

Purpose: To provide a resource and reference for RVF readers seeking advice and information on various Martial Arts. This Datasheet will provide a little bit of historical background, cover sport systems, self-defense systems, traditional martial arts, lineages when appropriate. The primary focus will be on widely accepted pros and cons of each along with my own personal insights on each. This datasheet will also help and assist those looking for a martial art for reasons besides self-defense and sports. It will have recommendations for general fitness and advice for older and aging men. Advice for women and children will also be present for any guys that have wives and/or children.

Format:
This guide will go by style, listed in alphabetical order.

Commonly used acronyms:
BJJ = Brazilian JiuJitsu
JJ = Japanese Ju Jitsu
WC = Wing Chun
MT = Muay Thai
MMA = Mixed Martial Arts
TKD = Tae Kwon Do
CQC = Close Quarters Combat (military application)
TMA = Traditional Martial Arts
CMA = Chinese Martial Arts
SMJ = Small Joint Manipulation

Preface: This datasheet is not going to be some Traditional Systems vs. Modern Systems junk that is commonly seen on many martial arts websites and forums. MMA is not some modern system that is better than older systems. There is no such thing as a Modern Martial Art. That is a complete misnomer that lacks intellectual integrity or honesty. All systems have strengths and weaknesses. All systems come from an older system linage wise and/or borrowed from many other systems. Complete systems refer to systems that include techniques for any and all situations. Incomplete systems are thus systems that do not have a technique to deal with a particular situation. This datasheet will not be a sport system vs non-sports system guide. Sports systems do not tend to handle various self-defense aspects well, and non-sports systems tend not to train their fighters to have the athleticism required to handle themselves against powerful opponents. Ultimately, it is up to the individual fighter to close any and all gaps in their game as a person. It is NOT anyone else’s responsibility for your failures to protect yourself on the street or win fights professionally.
Feel free to ask questions in the thread or send me PMs, but I will not reply to or dignify stupid arguments or inquiries about modern vs traditional or sport vs. non-sport styles, for all the reasons I listed above.
Everyone’s situations are different from another man’s, so do not feel afraid to ask me something about what system(s) would be effective for a 50 year old man, who has had 2 knee replacements, and just wants to get back in shape but do something fun instead of running on an elliptical. That is a valid concern and you should not feel ashamed for asking that. Muay Thai for example is not really great for older man, like the one described above, especially considering the low career span of professional Muay Thai fighters. If an older guy really loved Muay Thai a lot I would recommend he do it maybe 2 times a week at most, for 2 hours, but stay out of the ring completely. Again, the more information about your situation, the better the advice or recommendation you will receive, because everyone has a different situation.
Due to your location, you may or may not find a gym or dojo for the style you like. I will try to help as best as I can, but I have lost the rolodex I used to have for things like that. Some regions of the world are more likely to have certain styles than others. I am quite certain that it would be difficult to find American Kickboxing or French Savate (French Kickboxing) in Russia, but I am sure that finding a Russian Sambo dojo would be pretty easy to find there.
Since the actual list of Martial Arts is damn near endless, I will have to limit it to covering the more popular ones instead. I will have some weapons based systems (like fencing or medieval sword fighting) in here as well but I will not be able to go to really deep detail on them like some of the others. I will not have any Indian Martial Arts listed only due to a lack of knowledge on their different systems.

List of Martial Arts

Aikido
American Kickboxing
Boxing (all forms)
Brazilian Jiujitsu
Capoeira
CQC
Dim Mak
Dutch Kickboxing
Eskrima/Arnis/Kali (Filipino Martial Arts)
Fencing
Hapkido
Jeet Kun Do
Japanese Ju Jitsu
Judo
Karate
Kenjutsu (Japanese Sword fighting)
Kenpo
Krav Maga
MMA
Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA/HACA/European Swordsmanship)
Russian Martial Arts SAMBO/Systema
Sanda
Silat
Tae Kwon Do
Tai Chi
Tai Jitsu
Vo Vi Nam
Western Kickboxing (American, Dutch, French(Savate))
Wing Chun
Wrestling (Greco Roman/Freestyle/others)
Wu Shu (Chinese Gong Fu)

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Aikido

Pros:
1) Multiple opponent defense techniques, (even when surrounded 360 degrees), are second to no other style.
2) Low physical requirements to practice.
3) Very powerful SJM techniques.
4) Has a complete toolkit on how to subdue all kinds of aggressors from crazy women, to crazy drug addicts, to out of control family members, all without hurting anyone.
5) Weapons defense
6) Good for people of all ages, especially older people.
7) The more patient you are as a person, the stronger it gets.

Cons:
1) Not a complete system. (no real strikes)
2) No extensive groundwork.
3) Peaceful system that focuses on self-defense only with no realistic options for attacking.
4) Takes a fairly long time to fully learn. (~5-10 years+) To master 15+
5) Does not train the body for good physical conditioning, must develop that outside.

Boxing

Pros:
1) The physical conditioning training programs are the best of all styles, maybe of all sports.
2) Gyms are very easy to find anywhere in the Western world.
3) Develops attack speed far better than most styles.
4) Very easy to learn. Everyone gets better with time spent in the gym.
5) Great for people of all ages and develops good discipline and good habits.
6) Extremely useful to cross train in with sport fighting systems.
7) High fun factor and great for the social relationships built.

Cons:
1) Not a complete system.
2) Limited street and self-defense application.
3) No groundwork at all.
4) No kick defense.
5) Heavy dependence on footwork, take the ability to have footwork from a boxer and they are done.
6) No weapons defense
7) Physical problems if you fight professional or amateur for a long time.
8) Extremely corrupt professional industry. Makes government look like angels.
9) Potential for death exists, but very rare. (brain swellings, etc.)
10) Concussions and head trauma are possible, unless you rarely spar.
11) Not recommended to let your children spar if it can be helped, if not, headgear is mandatory. Better to wait until they are older.

Brazilian Jiujitsu/Gracie Jiu Jitsu

Pros:
1) Possibly the best ground game of all sport styles.
2) Expanded ground techniques that traditional Judo does not have.
3) Easiest gyms to find nowadays, worldwide.
4) Makes it very easy to get into shape and lose a lot of weight, in even the first month.
5) Develops excellent cardio shape, with “body wide” total fitness. The whole body works out.
6) Very high fun factor with a huge community of practitioners for social networking.
7) Excellent for children and young people of both genders.
8) Develops good teambuilding atmosphere and social skills.
9) Great for professional MMA fighting.
10) Plenty of tools to help smaller guys vs. bigger guys.
11) Your actual skill level and knowledge tends to reflect your actual belt color ranking. No brownie points for length of practice.
12) Good for children, but monitor and watch the intensity as a parent. Don’t assume the school won’t do too much too soon.

Cons:
1) Not a complete system.
2) Not a good system for street self defense. Has no techniques for multiple opponents. Royce Gracie does have a self defense system, but it is not as good as something designed for the street.
3) Only focus is on the ground and light wrestling. No strikes and no Small Joint Manipulation are allowed in practice or matches.
4) Judo throws are allowed if you know them but they are usually never taught in class.
5) Very limited self-defense application due to being a sport style and is single opponent heavy.
6) Long term heavy practice will yield back and knee/joint problems after 10-20+ years.
7) While easy to learn, it’s actually pretty hard to master against many of the elite competition.
8) Can get very expensive depending upon who is teaching you, their lineage, where, and cost of equipment.
9) Cauliflower ear is possible.
10) Small Joint Manipulation is usually not allowed at all, nor is taught.
11) Too many new-age schools that are too MMA/NAGA focused, do not teach the style correctly or with the gi kimono, which is important if you want to learn it’s self defense applications correctly, or just proper technique in general.
12) Infighting over authenticity in regards to the Gracie family over lineage and their attempts to distance themselves from BJJ, despite their family creating it.

Capoeira

Pros:
1) Lots of fun to do and watch.
2) Excellent level of fitness and strength gained from practice.
3) High sex appeal for the ladies as well as exotic factor. (Think Exotic Dance Game)
4) Helps improve your dance skills in other forms of dance.
5) This is a social style because it is usually done with a partner.
6) Can easily blend into breakdancing, bboying, and pop-locking.
7) Young men that like to dance alot at nightclubs should really invest at least a few months learning this to help add more dimensions to their game, fitness, and style. I have personally seen duos work a nightclub and get numbers off 1 dance with tons of IOIs.
8) Any school worth it's salt will heavily teach the culture behind the art as well, which provides a richer experience than just working out.

Cons:
1) Can be somewhat hard to find a class or instructor, as well as dance partners.
2) Very limited use outside of practice.
3) Lacks a lot of practicality for self-defense situations.
4) Can hurt your wrists and fingers. I am told small injuries happen from time to time.
5) Broken bones in the legs is also a common occurrence.
6) Kind of a young man’s game.

CQC (Close Quarters Combat)

Pros:
1) All special forces in any military trains in this.
2) Good fitness can be acquired.
3) Uses semi-automatic and fully automatic weapons.
4) Usually incorporates knives and stick defense.
5) Hostage situation, Counter-Terrorism, and Bomb Threats are usually covered.
6) Teaches how to breach buildings and secure them.
7) Deals with nervousness the best and is as real world as it gets.
8) Learn how to handle live fire, shootouts, explosions, teamwork, etc.
9) Learn how to handle getting disarmed by the enemy or being grappled.
10) Very high fun factor.
11) Real world self-defense tactics.
12) Mixes naturally well with conceal/open pistol carry.
13) Survival tactics are commonly taught as well at some schools.
14) I recommend this for people not in great shape, that only want to learn how to protect themselves in violent situations that also carry handguns daily with their handgun license. Pick the right school, some enforce mandatory combat readiness fitness requirements.

Cons:
1) Can be extremely hard to take classes on this or even get permission.
2) Not for children at all.
3) Not available in all countries.
4) Can be hard to find good instructors.
5) Can be very heavy emphasis on guns and shooting targets, which is bad for your hand to hand training.
6) The easiest way to learn is to join the military and choose the right job or position for this line of work.
7) Some groups are private join only and only former/current SEALs, Airborne, SWAT, FBI, ATF, etc. type guys are able to join.
8) You may live in a place that does not allow you to carry guns or knives all the time and if you do not need it for your job in law enforcement or military, it may not help you much.
9) Lots of good schools in places like Arizona or Texas, but not so much in gun restrictive states.
10) Some of these schools are actually Krav Maga based, which is good and bad.
11) The level of competency varies way too much in a way. You could get anything from a plain ol common sense glorified handgun license class to an elite Russian Systema class that will teach you even military secret skills. It can really vary on the instructor. Do your research!!! Call around and go watch a class or two. You have anything from Paranoid Fucks, to Preppers, to tournament Paintball Gunners taking these classes. Make sure it will fit what you are looking to accomplish.

Dim Mak
Pros:
1) Can be very deadly in the wrong hands.
2) Can be used to heal the bodies of others.
3) Learn extensive amounts of medical knowledge on pain points, pressure points, meridians, blood vessels in the neck, brain, and body.
4) Exceptional SJM knowledge. Hands down the best.
5) Can even reroute pain in your own body.
6) Can include acupuncture training usually along with advanced therapeutic massage.
7) Changes the way you view your involvements with any types of conflict.
8) Increases personal responsibility tremendously.
9) Included non-lethal applications.
10) Can learn some Traditional Chinese Medicine alongside it usually.

Cons:
1) Takes a very long time to learn.
2) Extremely hard to find real instructors.
3) You must gain the trust of the instructors over periods of time, in order to be entrusted with this knowledge.
4) By itself not really a complete fighting system. It is actually a supplement style like a Chinese Animal Style, but no one will teach it to someone unqualified physically, mentally, and maturity wise.
5) Usually takes at least 5-10 years of Chinese Gong Fu/Wu Shu study before learning.

Eskrima/Arnis/Silat (Filipino Martial Arts/FMA)

Pros:
1) Very deadly, dangerous, and practical martial art.
2) The poster child art for street fighting itself.
3) Was once used by Filipinos to defeat invading US Marines, in a past war.
4) So effective that it’s techniques have been heavily borrowed into CQC and Krav Maga for military training programs.
5) Teaches you how to carry knives discreetly, how to defend against another person with a knife.
6) Teaches you everyday awareness techniques and how clothing can help you win fights or lose fights.
7) Multiple opponent fighting for street situations.
8) Has a cousin style in Malaysian Silat that is popular in Indonesia and surrounding places.
9) Has gained lots of popularity recently due to Hollywood so that has helped it spread. (eg. The Jason Borne movies)
10) Contains non-lethal techniques as well.

Cons:
1) Can be a little hard to find a school/dojo in the West. Schools are everywhere in South East Asia.
2) You cannot, or should not, always carry knives or sticks into certain public places.
3) Potential legal issues if you have to use a weapon to defend yourself in certain countries and states.
4) You have to practice with rubber knives and sticks and cannot give 100% effort into everything.
5) Physical fitness must be gained outside, but some schools force students into fitness camps.
6) Many weapons in the system are not practical to carry on your person in many countries.
7) Not necessarily a system for children.

Fencing

Pros:
1) Best hand eye coordination martial art training there is. Hands down.
2) Can be done intensely or casually. It’s up to you.
3) Great social perks and atmosphere. Great social networking with affluent, classy, and intelligent individuals.
4) Huge international following and is an Olympic sport.
5) Great for all ages.

Cons:
1) No outside practicality whatsoever unless you always carry a long stick or a collapsible one.
2) Very expensive sport/hobby. Not to scare anyone, but if you are always broke, you might want to try something else….

Hapkido

Pros:
1) Complete martial art system that covers all situations.
2) A strong older style that blends the best from Old Korea and Old Japan.
3) Great SJM techniques.
4) Good fitness and sparring is fairly common.
5) Has Korean military use along with TKD.
6) Excellent for kids and adults.
7) Has excellent self-defense applications

Cons:
1) Can be easy or hard to find a proper school, depends upon the country.
2) In the US there has been some Hapkido Mc Dojos that easily hand out belts for money.
3) Fitness is a must to use it well, and not all schools pound that in.

 

[MacManus]

TravelerKai data sheet continued:

Jeet Kun Do

Pros:
1) Invented by Bruce Lee.
2) Strong emphasis on physical fitness and practice.
3) The original “Mixed Martial Art”.
4) Emphasis on footwork and speed.
5) Encourages learning from others outside.
6) Includes basic Wing Chun and American Boxing as a base, along with Boxing style training methods for fitness.
7) Easy to learn.

Cons:
1) Not a complete style.
2) Fighting like Bruce Lee is not necessarily for everyone.
3) Due to it’s patchy put together techniques and Bruce dying, all his students have too much variation in what Bruce taught them.
4) It’s getting harder to find a dojo that teaches this nowadays. Many students and teachers switched into general MMA stuff.
5) Key techniques are missing from it’s arsenal to make it more useful for self-defense.

**Bruce Lee created Jeet Kun Do. It was the first modern Mixed Martial Art. Bruce was slowly killed by a fight with a Dim Mak practitioner. He refused his help to reverse it, and boasted that Western medicine would fix it. He used cocaine and other things to try and fix the damage and still died. I cannot provide you in-depth medical proof that just cocaine did not killed him, but many credible people told me about the fight many years ago. Wikipedia has it listed as a rumor and that the other person used a Quivering Palm on Bruce. I am not able to confirm if that specific technique was used or not. I may only about know the Quivering palm by some other Chinese translation or word.

Japanese Ju Jitsu

Pros:
1) A complete system.
2) Very old with very lengthy military history.
3) The father style that most Japanese styles branched from and other younger styles come from. (eg. Judo, Aikido, ninjutsu, taijutsu, etc.)
4) Contains the most SJM knowledge.
5) Contains the most pressure point knowledge of all styles except Advanced Chinese systems like Dim Mak.
6) Contains weapons training and defense
7) Very practical self-defense for street use.
8) Contains deadly and non-deadly techniques.
9) No physically intensive training required to learn.

Cons:
1) Not necessarily good for young children to learn. Only if they limit certain instruction.
2) Somewhat difficult to find dojos.
3) Physical fitness must be gained outside the dojo.
4) Can take a while to learn a solid foundation (5 years)
5) Mastering the advanced pressure point applications can take a very long time.
6) Care must be taken to not use excessive force in a real situation.
7) Can be difficult to find a school that teaches all areas of it (eg. Sword, spear, staff, knives, advanced pressure points, etc.)

Judo

Pros:
1) Great fitness can be attained from practice.
2) High fun factor.
3) Great for kids and adults.
4) Really good for girls and women because it makes escaping a bigger and stronger person a lot easier.
5) Olympic sport with large international following.
6) The father style of BJJ. (BJJ does not have throws, just a few sweeps) Judo has both Te waza and Ne Waza which means throws/sweeps and grappling.
7) MMA fighters with pedigrees in Judo tend to dominate their weight classes. (see Karo Parisyian and Rhonda Rousey)

Cons:
1) Not a complete system.
2) Not very practical for self-defense. It’s mostly a sport. You can escape easily after throwing or sweeping someone. Women and children have no business punching large male attackers, the correct strategy would be to get away first.
3) No strikes and no SJM.
4) Not always easy to find a dojo in every town/city.
5) Long term heavy practice will yield back and knee/joint problems after 10-20+ years.

Karate

Pros:
1) Very old system with a lot of popularity worldwide.
2) Great for kids and adults of all ages.
3) Style was developed for fighting armed opponents with or without weapons.
4) Teaches good strength conditioning and discipline.
5) Contains practical self-defense applications.
6) Easy to learn.
7) Lyoto Machida and George St. Pierre demonstrated Karate’s punching techniques and horse stances to get back to their feet in MMA.
8) Real Karate tradition teaches students to go out into the world and study and observe other styles and schools techniques, once 1st or 2nd dan black belt ranking is achieved.
9) Barefisted wise, Karaketas have some of the hardest fists, elbows, and punches in the world.
10) Too many famous pro fighters to list have Karate backgrounds. Mirko Cro Cop, GSP, and Machida are just a small but elite sample.

Cons:
1) Mc Dojos and lazy teachers are everywhere that do not teach it seriously enough, and give out belts too easily. Those only exist to give self-esteem boosts and make money.
2) Many of the best teachers, that teach the traditional way and use hardening techniques, are only in Japan.
3) Does not have extensive ground techniques.
4) Only basic to intermediate level pressure point use is taught, and that really depends upon the school and the instructor.
5) Too many different splinter style branches of Karate which confuses everyone looking for authentic training.
6) Some American schools blend their Karate with Kenpo, Hapkido, and Tae Kwon Do, which is good and bad.
7) If you find a serious school, train a long time, and break wood and stone blocks, eventually you will have injuries and pains longterm without lots of precautions.
8) While they understand the dynamic of Hard and Soft, Karate is mostly Hard, instead. It’s a heavily external style, like Muay Thai.
9) Some instructors are lightyears better than most. In fact, some styles are better than others but that is hotly debated and controversial in the community.
10) Underground fighting and no-rules open weight Karate tournaments are actually real in Asia. Very dangerous and is often gang affiliated. Realistically Karate should not be used as a sport because originally, it is for real world fighting that could involve death. Sport Karate mostly bolsters fitness, it will not teach the life and death aspects.

** A shipwrecked Chinese gong fu master taught the Okinawan’s “Karate” to help them fend off harassing samurai that wore wood armor. He taught them how to even turn common farming tools into weapons (sai daggers, etc.). In return they gave him food and water. He left when he got another ship to take him back to China. He was too racist to teach the Japanese more than the basics. (basically soft/circular style because hard style is just the basics). The Japanese strongly reject this historical account, and this is not common knowledge. Ask me via PM if you want more information on that.

Kenjutsu

Pros:
1) Japanese sword fighting (technically comes from Japanese Ju Jitsu, it’s parent system)
2) Teaches Japanese swordplay, etiquette, and ceremony.
3) Great way to learn Japanese history and military strategy from old periods.
4) Fun to learn and fun to cut objects with real katanas.
5) Kendo sticks and other wooden swords allow for better practice before using a real sword.

Cons
1) It is not practical self defense. You cannot carry a katana anywhere in the world just about.
2) Hard to find schools. May have to learn it from a regular Japanese Ju Jitsu school. Some Aikido schools teach it as well.

Kenpo/Kempo (American and Japanese)

Pros:
1) Defensive martial art
2) A hybrid mixture of Karate and a few other Japanese styles such as Judo.
3) A complete self defense system.
4) Easier to find in Japan and the USA.
5) Think Hapkido, except 100% Japanese styles and techniques instead.
6) The American style was created by Ed Parker.
7) The American style has powerful punches.
8) Great for all ages.
9) Easy to learn.
10) Some famous MMA\UFC fighters grew up in the system. (Frank Mir or Chuck Liddell)

Cons:
1) Not a high fitness system, although some practitioners turn it into one by mixing it with MMA (See Chuck Liddell or Frank Mir)
2) It’s punches are a little bit telegraphed and can be blocked somewhat easily.
3) Can be awesome in the right hands, but most practitioners will not max out its potential.
4) Can be tricky at first to get the right setups to use certain moves. (eg. Allowing the opponent to do something in particular so that you can hit them with a haymaker) Kempo is mostly about setups and leverage for strikes.

Krav Maga

Pros:
1) Battle tested and highly effective against standard enemy combatants.
2) Training methods are usually done full speed.
3) Lots of sparring practice.
4) Real world self-defense scenarios that include CQC are practiced.
5) Based on lots of Aikido, Japanese Ju Jitsu, Eskrima/Silat, Judo, and many other styles.
6) The official art of the Israeli Military.
7) Deadly and non-deadly techniques.
8) Fitness is gained from practice.
9) Weapons training and defense, including guns, at some schools.

Cons:
1) Not a complete style. Patchwork like Jeet Kun Do. Many things are missing and even certain techniques are not properly done to completion. Heavy focus is always on speed.
2) Improper implementation of Japanese techniques against opponents holding weapons.
3) Use of speed and “shock and awe” style maneuvers to intimidate and surprise an enemy may not work against an opponent with more knowledge on fighting.
4) Lots of infighting, like BJJ, between official Krav Maga Schools and non-official ones, as well as Mc Dojos popping up around the country also fighting over lineage as well.
5) Some instructors are lightyears better than most.

MMA (Mixed Martial Arts)

Pros:
1) Incredible fitness and strength training.
2) Learn multiple styles (depends upon instructors/camps)
3) Has a large and growing professional industry you can advance and participate in.
4) Shooto, Pancrase, UFC, Bellator, Vale Tudo, and a few others make up the different subtype/groups.
5) Quick learning curve and you can become fight capable in weeks or months depending upon your background.
6) Develops actual toughness that is good for self-defense, although MMA itself is not technically for self-defense. Can actually be used for self-defense.
7) Training gyms are everywhere.
8) MMA training usually gets you at least basic BJJ, wrestling, and kickboxing skills.
9) Can be a lot of fun to practice.

Cons:
1) Shooto, Pancrase, UFC, Bellator, and others have much different rules for sparring/fighting.
2) Does not have weapons defense training and is not designed for self-defense.
3) Is not organized as a style itself.
4) Not a complete system because it is not even a system to begin with.
5) Concussions and head trauma is possible.
6) Injuries are inevitable.
7) Training costs can get high if you are between amateur and pro.
8) Can be very hard to turn professional but very easy for others.
9) UFC has a near monopoly on the sport which hurts everyone’s pay and prospects.
10) UFC is extremely political to deal with.
11) Smaller shows do not pay well and promoting is hell to get involved in.
12) You have to register and handle Boxing Commission issues (drug testings, etc) if you fight pro. Some states do not test for doping which hurts fair fighters.
13) Potential for death, while miniscule, is still there for cage fighting, just like Boxing. (brain swellings, etc)
14) Cauliflower ear is possible.
15) Killed off Tae Kwon Do and Karate as the most popular, but is now having it’s own McDojo concerns.

Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA/HACA/European Swordsmanship)

Pros:
1) Exciting and fun if you love history and the Renaissance period.
2) Lots of geeks, nerds, and new friends can be met doing this.
3) Extremely intelligent people do this for a hobby and collectors as well.
4) Weapon forging and metallurgy is often associated.
5) Plenty of Subject Matter Experts to discuss and learn from.
6) Anyone can participate.
7) Improves overall strength if you bother practicing instead of just talking about it.
8) Even with a small or medium sized knife in hand, these guys could easily kill an attacker without much effort. Some of these guys carry knives the size of a Bowie Knife around on their waist.

Cons:
1) Can get really expensive if you really get into it.
2) Not practical for self-defense unless you carry a weapon of some kind.
3) Can be very dangerous if careless (See Badwolf’s Concussion Thread)
4) Not every city has an Arma/HACA association chapter or affiliated group. Europe has more groups than the US.
5) Unless you like “Renaissance Festival Wenches” it has relatively low sex appeal to outsiders unable to appreciate the hobby….

Muay Thai Kickboxing

Pros:
1) The ultimate external martial art.
2) Long history of effectiveness versus other systems.
3) Very high level of fitness and physical toughness.
4) Turns various body parts into actual weapons. (The art of the 8 limbs.)
5) Very fast to learn with a quick turnaround on proficiency.
6) Has brutal elbow strikes, which can have kill power in them.
7) Brutal clinchwork, which can be used to destroy a non Muay Thai trained opponent.
8) Can be used for self defense.
9) Has a professional industry.
10) Mixes very well with no only MMA and BJJ, but almost every martial art, due to the natural stances.

Cons:
1) Fighters have short careers due to the brutal nature of the sport. (avg 5 years)
2) Injuries are inevitable and is physically demanding depending upon the training. Violent as a sport.
3) Leg pains, shin pain, knee issue problems may happen the longer you do it.
4) Hitting a normal person could kill them with even a simple elbow strike, have to be careful.
5) Pro Thai boxing is ultra corrupt, fake fights everywhere, uses children to fight, and is notoriously dirty to be involved in. (in Thailand mostly)
6) The style is not good for children at all. Their bones and bodies are not developed enough. Only way would be light pad work and no sparring whatsoever. Muay Thai is a young man’s game.
7) Not an actual system for real world self defense, although your average practitioner has a sizable advantage over untrained attackers. Single attacker only.
8) Hard to find traditional Muay Thai in the West. Lots just teach the boxing and basics. Few do the traditional conditioning and spiritual parts. Not always a bad thing, just means you miss certain parts.
9) Many MT fighters are not as quick or fast as their boxing counterparts and are often not on the same level boxing-wise. You may have to find separate boxing instructor to supplement that aspect of your game.
10) Few serious about Muay Thai quit on their own terms. Getting old in the sport overnight is a reality. Younger healthier guys with denser bones are always around the corner.
11) Don’t think Thais on the street will fight you with Muay Thai over a dispute. Thais love knives a lot more. Ask anyone that ever lived in Thailand for a while. Don’t be fooled, overly cocky foreigners will get stabbed.

Russian Martial Arts SAMBO/Systema

Pros:
1) Think Krav Maga but on steroids and Adderall.
2) Many Russian MMA fighters have a Russian Leg Sambo background, like Fedor Emelianenko and President Putin. Lots of Russian Judokas know most if not all the leg submissions of SAMBO.
3) Has the most leg submissions of any grappling system.
4) Some of the leg submissions are illegal in many MMA and Grappling tournaments.
5) Is a complete system, if you study the entire combat system.
6) Has a Japanese Jujitsu and Judo lineage as a base.
7) The Russian military’s choice for everything including it’s special version mixed with Assault Rifles /w CQC.
8) Members of the US Secret Service, Private Military Contractors (PMCs), and bodyguards train in it.
9) The best instruction can be found in Russia. The Russian Military, Special Forces, and Secret Police have their own secret version and techniques combined with all of their weapons.
10) Highly effective in combat, sport, and self-defense situations.
11) Good fitness can be found in the system.
12) If you live in a coastal city/state in the US there are usually plenty of schools to find.

Cons:
1) The best instruction can be found in Russia, although there are some good schools in the US.
2) Could take a while to learn all the different techniques in it’s toolset.
3) Even it’s non-lethal stuff, could cause you to use excessive force if you had to use it on the street.
4) Not necessarily a good style for children to learn wait until they are older.
5) Can be expensive.
6) Non-Russians may never get to learn everything it has, especially the military related stuff.
7) Some schools do not do CQC at all, gun or not. Check with them first. You can supplement this with a regular CQC school if necessary.

Sanda/San Shou (Chinese Kickboxing)

Pros:
1) Think Muay Thai Kickboxing but Chinese Style.
2) It’s very old but still excellent.
3) Has more sweeps, trips, and throws than Muay Thai does.
4) Excellent fitness is gained. Good physical conditioning.
5) Lots of sparring, usually with pads on to prevent injury.
6) Easy to learn.
7) International competition and high popularity in certain parts of the world.
8) High fun factor.

Cons:
1) It’s actually more practical for the street considering its move sets, compared to Muay Thai, but it’s not taught to be used that way.
2) Injuries.
3) Not always easy to find a school in all places.

Tae Kwon Do

Pros:
1) Decent to high fitness can be gained.
2) Great flexibility and speed can be gained.
3) Very good kicking/striking style that can be easily mixed with other kickboxing and MMA oriented styles.
4) Great for kids and adults.
5) Great style for a martial arts foundation and discipline.
6) Basic self-defense techniques are taught.
7) High level TKD has even a military training style and component.
8) TKD practitioners have great balance comparable to Judokas.
9) Heavy international following and an Olympic sport.
10) Schools are very easy to find just about anywhere.
11) Korean schools and the Korean military have much better instruction than other places in the world, and use a more hardcore version.

Cons:
1) Too many disingenuous schools/dojos, in America, that give belts away too easily and are mere self-esteem boosting factories, mostly in the US. McDojo issues.
2) Lack of ground game and too dependent on footwork, striking, and speed.
3) Too much back exposure in the self-defense aspect.
4) As with any heavy external style, your individual strength and fitness level makes or breaks it.
5) Easily the best schools and training are in both Koreas, where both train their military in it and use it quite differently, and mix it with Hapkido.
6) Not exactly a complete system, but mixing it with Hapkido pretty much completes it.
7) Some instructors are lightyears better than most other instructors.

Tai Chi/Tai ji chuan/Chen Style Tai Ji (Chinese Martial Art)

Pros:
1) Internal system with the most health benefits. (ie. Flexibility, fitness, energy management, stress control, etc.)
2) If Chen Style Tai Chi is learned, self-defense is highly efficient compared to other styles.
3) Easy to learn the basics.
4) Great for older people, people of all ages, as well as people with physical issues or difficulties.
5) Think of it like Yoga mixed with Aikido, Gong Fu (Crane Style), and Sanda.
6) Injuries are less likely.
7) The handfuls of people with real internal strength can utilize techniques like Iron Shirt/Robe/Fist/Palm, and are truly dangerous to any unsuspecting that on the street. This is also the same for qi gong mastery in regular Gong Fu.
8) Usually all or most of the different animal styles can learned by the various instructors.

Cons:
1) There are only a handful of Chen Style teachers in the world last time I checked.
2) Can take almost a lifetime to master. (15+ years minimum)
3) It’s self-defense effectiveness is very difficult to explain without showing it.
4) For regular tai chi, the fitness to be able to fight a powerful opponent (with world class strength) or multiple people comes from their breath control techniques but I personally think it has limits if that person is in poor cardio shape to begin with.
5) If you want to learn from Grandmaster Chen himself, he is getting older so you would need to travel to him to do so before it is too late. He lives in Houston, Texas of all places, you would expect.
6) Regular Tai Chi is not practical for self defense.
7) I personally do not think it is a complete system.

Vovinam (Vo Vit Nam)

Pros:
1) A Mixed Martial Art for self-defense, like Krav Maga.
2) Contains some wrestling and grappling.
3) Contains weapons training.
4) Not exactly complete and comprehensive but very effective.
5) Good for kids. Vietnamese parents often enroll their children to toughen them up and teach discipline.
6) Great for adults too.
7) No McDojo nonsense. It’s Vietnamese heritage ensures that it stays tough.
8) Created by a Vietnamese martial arts guru for the purpose to fight the French out of Vietnam.
Cons:
1) Short history like Krav Maga.
2) Not exactly complete style wise, but not by alot.
3) Weaknesses on exposed backs during demonstrations of techniques, like Krav Maga.
4) Lack of intricate sophistication that leaves holes.
5) Misses out on certain techniques that would enhance it’s toolkit. But it’s focus on efficiency on the basics is the tradeoff.

Western Kickboxing (American, Dutch, French(Savate))

Pros:
1) Very high fitness.
2) Sport fighting with strong international followings.
3) Can be used for self defense.
4) Higher focus on punches and punching(boxing) technique. Trainees have much better hands than average Muay Thai fighters.
5) Powerful punch combinations. (very kempo/kenpo like)
6) More leg kicks borrowed from older styles to the upper body. (The Axe kick, etc.)
7) More footwork and movement than Muay Thai.
8) Dutch Kickboxing fighters have very nasty push kicks to the upper body that can hurt a lot. In Muay Thai it is usually lower to the legs.
9) Pound for pound, some of the best pro fighters that ever lived were/are Dutch Kickboxers like Ramon Dekkers, Ernesto Hoost, or Alistair Overeem.
10) Slightly better for children than Muay Thai is, still has the primary concerns Muay Thai for children has. (primarily American Kickboxing)
11) Very good style to mix for MMA. Many schools are heavily into MMA.
12) American Kickboxing has Karate roots.

Cons:
1) Dutch style does not use elbows.
2) Elbows are not a focus of Savate and American styles. (basically 4 point systems, not 8 point, like Muay Thai is)
3) Not great at clinchwork with diverse knee strikes like Muay Thai.
4) Not a true self defense system that can be fully used against weapons or multiple opponents on the street.
5) Physical durability will be an issue, your average fighter may not last longer than your average Muay Thai fighter.
6) Injuries will happen and is physically demanding.
7) Concussions are possible.

** Western Kickboxing can vary depending the style as well as the league you fight in. K1, Glory, etc.


Wing Chun

Pros:
1) A quick study. Easy to learn. Was designed originally for 20 months study.
2) Develops great speed and good coordination.
3) Great self-defense techniques.
4) Good fitness can be attained depending upon the school you attend.
5) Famous style with schools worldwide.
6) Bruce Lee was trained by Ip Man in this style.
7) Created by a woman to teach wives how to prevent being beaten up by men/husbands.
8) If your training and speed is good enough, it can be used to easily beat good boxers.
9) Multiple opponent applications.
10) Can use a wooden dummy to practice and stay sharp.

Cons:
1) Incomplete system but not by a lot.
2) Depending upon who teaches you, the ground game is weak.
3) It was originally designed by a woman that took only the easy to learn parts of her Shaolin Wu Shu training to focus on mostly the boxing aspect.
4) Lacks a lot of kicks.
5) Like boxing, footwork is crucial. Take their feet away and they lose a lot of their toolkit.
6) Physical training is not as good as boxing gyms.

Wrestling

Pros:
1) The oldest martial art.
2) Huge international following. Olympic sport.
3) Easy to find a gym.
4) Extremely high fitness can be attained.
5) Excellent to mix with other styles for MMA.
6) Has a big MMA pedigree.
7) Enhances whole body strength more than even BJJ.
8) Develops your core and the entire body like boxing.
9) Easy to learn.
1) Builds lots of social comradery like BJJ.
2) Very quick weight loss and metabolism control can be attained like BJJ.
3) Get to show off your package in a singlet! (Thanks CascadeCombo)

Cons:
1) Injuries.
2) Can be very physically demanding.
3) Not necessarily an old man’s game but many older men do it just fine.
4) Not effective for self-defense by itself. Pairing it with anything else, makes a major difference.
5) Not a complete martial art.
6) Only a sport.
7) Higher risk of cauliflower ear without headgear.

Wu Shu (Chinese Gong Fu AKA Kung Fu)

Pros:
1) Extremely old, original Shaolin Style Martial Art. The father of many Asian martial arts.
2) Possibly the strongest of all martial arts if studied like a traditional Shaolin Monk.
3) Has several animal sub-styles that fit different people like a MBTI personality type.
4) Good fitness and great flexibility can be obtained with some styles.
5) Good to great self-defense.
6) Has less combative forms.
7) A complete system if mastered.
8) Qi-gong mastery can offer superhuman like strength and control of bodily function otherwise not possible.

Cons:
1) Too many styles of gong fu make it hard for most to figure out which ones to take. (Xing Yi, Hung Gar, Ba Gua, etc.)
2) Too much dependence on good instructors. An average instructor may not be good enough.
3) Notoriously difficult to master.
4) Qi gong use can take 10-20 years of practice. Mastery of it could take your entire life to obtain.
5) Takes a long time to become proficient and master. (5 years for proficiency and 15-30 to master)
6) Not all instructors know your proper animal substyle.
7) Schools can be hard to find depending upon your country, even more so for your animal.
8) Some certain rare animal style instructors (Green Dragon, Black Dragon, Panther, and certain Mantis styles) are pretty hard to find.
9) General mastery is usually required before taking advanced forms like Dim Mak and various animal styles.
10) Some forms of gong fu are not as good for self-defense like some others are, but you would not know it if you listen to an instructor trying to get you to train there. Like Xing Yi vs Hung Gar.
11) Studying forms can be very boring to some people. Patience is required for any Chinese style of martial arts in general.
12) Some advanced forms are missing/lost because of murders of key people, challenges to the death by masters, lineages dying off, temples being burned, evil emperors, and Chinese people keeping secrets from other Chinese and foreigners. Some people have recovered much of it, but there are masters that will take secrets to their graves or keep the circle that knows very small.

** Highly conceptual and contextual, not very specific like much of Chinese language itself. The fighters that were the best, simply “Got it” and were amazing. Being creative with the forms makes it very artful indeed.

Notice the difference between Jackie Chan, Jet Li and your average Chinese actor that is an expert in martial arts? The gulf in skill enormous. It’s not even about the level of athleticism. Even Donnie Yen is arguably not as good as those two were in their primes. It is very common to see one super amazing elite practitioner in a school, and everyone else is amazingly average.

This is the dirtiest secret of Chinese Gong Fu. Other forms of martial arts have much less parity. People that are not creative/flexible thinkers will never be great at Chinese Martial Arts. Never.

Closing thoughts:

Use this thread for anything martial arts related, for finding information, help with schools, advice based on your age/health, or just general questions. Feel free to PM me as always.

Special thanks to all that helped me edit this work: CrashBangWallop, CascadeCombo, Kinjutsu, Samsamsam, and Fortis. I wrote this 2 years ago, but never finished it for many reasons. CascadeCombo encouraged me to finish it out, so very special thanks to him on that.

 

[Let God Arise]

I got a black belt in Kenpo/Kempo in the USA quite a few years back, after years of study and many injuries. However, living in Europe there are no kempo schools anywhere within 500 km of me. The closest thing I can think of to what I studied is Hapkido, but again, you won't find that anywhere here (was even hard to find in the US). Can you recommend a style that is similar that I might be able to find in Europe? Remember, I'm in my mid-50s and don't have the stamina or flexibility I used to. I want to start up again, but don't know what to choose.

 

[MacManus]

I got a black belt in Kenpo/Kempo in the USA quite a few years back, after years of study and many injuries. However, living in Europe there are no kempo schools anywhere within 500 km of me. The closest thing I can think of to what I studied is Hapkido, but again, you won't find that anywhere here (was even hard to find in the US). Can you recommend a style that is similar that I might be able to find in Europe? Remember, I'm in my mid-50s and don't have the stamina or flexibility I used to. I want to start up again, but don't know what to choose.

I don't know anything about Kenpo....maybe a traditional karate style if there's one near you? Or BJJ is great for older guys as long as you're at a gym with a good culture where guys aren't going to try to maul you.

 

[Brebelle3]

Brothers, my boy turns 3 next month and can begin BJJ nearby. I'm a gym rat, but never trained in BJJ.

Any advice for how to prepare for his first visit? They'll give me 30 days free to make sure he's into it and the training is 2 days per week, 30 minute sessions. 3-5 year olds.

 

[cognitive dissonance 73]

Krav Maga is worth a try.

 

[DeusLuxMeaEst]

What belt in BJJ are you guys and do you compete?

 

[DeusLuxMeaEst]

Brothers, my boy turns 3 next month and can begin BJJ nearby. I'm a gym rat, but never trained in BJJ.

Any advice for how to prepare for his first visit? They'll give me 30 days free to make sure he's into it and the training is 2 days per week, 30 minute sessions. 3-5 year olds.

Check it out, watch a class, and talk to the instructor. Most instructors are legit but the BJJ community is still small so if a guy is unethical there’s probably information about him out there online. Kids classes are usually the bread and butter income for most coaches. Make sure the classes seem fun and aren’t super competitive especially at that age. Usually kids can start competing at 5 or 6 but they don’t have too.

 

[MacManus]

Check it out, watch a class, and talk to the instructor. Most instructors are legit but the BJJ community is still small so if a guy is unethical there’s probably information about him out there online. Kids classes are usually the bread and butter income for most coaches. Make sure the classes seem fun and aren’t super competitive especially at that age. Usually kids can start competing at 5 or 6 but they don’t have too.

Google the instructor for sure.

Worth checking out these comments from Jocko Willink on getting his kids started in BJJ...TLDR is don't overdo it. Better to send them once a week and allow them to continue to enjoy it without getting burned out (if they want to go more they always can of course) than have them end up hating it in 2 years.

 

[BrotherAugustine]

Really looking forward to Fury/Usyk in February. Always been a Fury fan but Usyk’s an Orthodox subdeacon so I’ll have to root for him instead.

 

[BrotherAugustine]

Krav Maga is worth a try.

Been doing KM on and off for 16 years. The truly good instructors are sadly few and far between, but if you can avoid the Franchise/McDojo schools it really is a great system. If any school wants you to wait until a certain belt/level to play with guns, move on. My first school (still my favorite) had us disarming weapons on the very first day since generally the mechanics aren’t that much more complicated than basic striking movements. We did five minutes of warmups, then unarmed striking/self-defense, then weapons - every single class. Schools that waste half the class with cardio seem to just want you to pay more money over a longer period of time to learn basic techniques.

 

[Wutang]

I personally would push kids into wrestling first and then adding the BJJ on later. BJJ and other martial arts will always be there but your window to train wrestling is limited to when you are in school and then if you are good, in university. Let's not forget that wrestling is free as well. It also transfers extremely well into BJJ so when your kid eventually starts training in BJJ, he'll have a huge leg up on the other kids that never wrestled.

 

[MacManus]

I personally would push kids into wrestling first and then adding the BJJ on later. BJJ and other martial arts will always be there but your window to train wrestling is limited to when you are in school and then if you are good, in university. Let's not forget that wrestling is free as well. It also transfers extremely well into BJJ so when your kid eventually starts training in BJJ, he'll have a huge leg up on the other kids that never wrestled.

Agree in general but the dude up thread's kid is 3, there may not be wrestling available for kids that young in his area.

Definitely get him wrestling at some point in his youth, but if there's an opportunity to start BJJ earlier than wrestling is offered there's no harm in doing that. Ideally you can get wrestling for free through a school--school wrestling is definitely bigger in some parts of the US than others (most prevalent and most competitive in Pennsylvania and the Midwest) but is usually available to some degree pretty much everywhere including in some parochial schools, and homeschool kids in some parts of the US can participate in sports at their local high school (Tim Tebow famously did this)--worth looking into if this is an option in your area if you're a homeschool family.

 

[MacManus]

Really looking forward to Fury/Usyk in February. Always been a Fury fan but Usyk’s an Orthodox subdeacon so I’ll have to root for him instead.

Fury is a devout Catholic. If only our forefathers a millennium ago would have had the foresight to nip the rift in our faith in the bud--each pick a champion, let them have at it, and agree ahead of time that God will choose who He wishes to prevail.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Really looking forward to Fury/Usyk in February. Always been a Fury fan but Usyk’s an Orthodox subdeacon so I’ll have to root for him instead.

They're both pretty devout... I think Usyk is a bit less bravado and more humble... But it's a win win either way.

I suspect Fury is going to win pretty handily... But I could be wrong of course.

 

[BrotherAugustine]

Fury is a devout Catholic. If only our forefathers a millennium ago would have had the foresight to nip the rift in our faith in the bud--each pick a champion, let them have at it, and agree ahead of time that God will choose who He wishes to prevail.

A battle for the ages. The Belts and the Schism are on the line.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

A battle for the ages. The Belts and the Schism are on the line.

Haha I'm not sure id go that far.

I think we all win either way.

Compare these two champs to Deontey Wilder...

Side note... One of my favorite past times is to go to Twin Peaks where a fight is on when a Mexican is fighting and cheer for the other dude.

At this point my wife's used to it... But I think first couple of fights was a shock to her.

 

[MacManus]

Haha I'm not sure id go that far.

I think we all win either way.

Compare these two champs to Deontey Wilder...

Side note... One of my favorite past times is to go to Twin Peaks where a fight is on when a Mexican is fighting and cheer for the other dude.

At this point my wife's used to it... But I think first couple of fights was a shock to her.

I've happened to be at a bar on a couple different occasions when the Mexico soccer team was playing, had a dude in NYC try to fight me once because they were getting beat by someone like Jamaica and I began loudly and drunkenly mocking the team.

 

[Wutang]

I was watching the first Fury vs Wilder fight with some big British guy from Manchester sitting next to me at the bar. He was singing along to God Save The Queen when they were doing each fighters' national anthem and was just pretty jovial in general. Things got a heated though when 4 black dudes showed up with some white chick. Brit dude was shouting stuff like "Why don't ye come fight in Manchester ya cunt?". I thought they might start fighting at some point but thankfully the white chick that was with the black dudes calmed them down. After that knockdown at the end of the fight the black guys left. I'm assuming it was because they thought Fury wouldn't get back up and thought the fight was over. Good thing they didn't stay for the decision cause I'm thinking there would have been a mini-riot.

Also I recall sitting next to some Texas roughneck type guy for the first Anderson Silva vs. Chris Weidman fight. He was getting agitated with Silva showboating and clowning around. At one point he started to walk away from the bar saying "I can't watch this s***" and that's right when Weidman knocked Silva out. The whole restaurant/bar erupted which was a good thing for the Texas guy cause he started shouting "F** that N (wth the hard R)" which probably would have caused a big scene if it wasn't for the fact it was so loud that no one but me heard him dropping the N bomb since I was sitting directly next to him at the bar.

Fight sports seem to have a way of bringing out the primal instincts in us.

 

[homersheineken]

Brothers, my boy turns 3 next month and can begin BJJ nearby. I'm a gym rat, but never trained in BJJ.

Any advice for how to prepare for his first visit? They'll give me 30 days free to make sure he's into it and the training is 2 days per week, 30 minute sessions. 3-5 year olds.

We don't have BJJ for 3 year olds around here.

What do you guys recommend for a 3 year old?