I find that the best sign is when she goes to church even when no service is held. Like stops there coming from work or something.
Who Should You Marry?
- Thread starter stadtaffe
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It's not even the nice guy thing, because sometimes the nice guy or overly nice guy is weak or soft overall and you can't blame women for being uninterested in that type. Many of those guys men don't even really respect. The issue is more that virtuous (nice is totally different, since they're usually just kind not according to anything but "get along" which is not all that genuine a lot of times) men, who do have courage, integrity, treat people well, etc aren't rewarded.
Witcoff always said this in the past and I correctly attribute it to him, though I'm sure others have said it. He always said, "If women rewarded good men, they'd get good men." My guess is that especially in modern times where they aren't taught anything but to rely on base instincts, emotions, and high time preference, they only care about "feels" and can't think long term. It's certain they effectively can't think long term because if they did, we wouldn't see this epidemic of 30+ year old cat ladies and worse.
Willingness to be obedient is a pretty early test you can make. "I'd prefer it if you did X instead of Y." A good woman will listen and take account of your request. If they are in any way indignant about it or offended then you can consider it a red flag. I am not suggesting ordering a woman around like a tyrant, you have to speak to her in a way that is respectful, but if they don't respond well to requests about how they treat you and what behaviour you'd prefer in a relationship then its a bad sign.
Relationship with their father is another important thing to consider. Little to no relationship with him is bad of course but just as bad, if not worse, is being "daddy's little princess."
I also think just being able to be in a room with nothing else going on and have fun and laugh without anything else to act as stimulation and entertainment is a big green flag. You can have an obedient feminine woman who goes to church etc but if you don't actually enjoy being around them then what's the point in spending your life with them?
Relationship with their father is another important thing to consider. Little to no relationship with him is bad of course but just as bad, if not worse, is being "daddy's little princess."
I also think just being able to be in a room with nothing else going on and have fun and laugh without anything else to act as stimulation and entertainment is a big green flag. You can have an obedient feminine woman who goes to church etc but if you don't actually enjoy being around them then what's the point in spending your life with them?
GrecoRoman
Catholic
Yes good distinction. Thats what I meant good religious men not the manipulative nice guy type that is all so common with the liberal men I see, or the ones I suspect are liberals.
It’s about being able to delay gratification and looking long term which men are much better at than women. As I mentioned in the other post, some women go for real dregs of society which leads to this epidemic of single motherhood. Although the blame is on both the women and the men. Case in point I was speaking with a younger woman at work, she had to be around 25. Petite, very attractive and mentioned that if a man had lots of tattoos that kicked up his attractiveness several notches. It’s a stupid statement, but certain woman think this way about many things. Inverted values. Some of my friends have tattoos, which are fine if they are well done, but as a criteria for mate selection is pretty much useless.
I’ve done combat sports my whole life and at certain points at some dingy gyms filled with cons and ex felons. These guys had no problems and had a girlfriend of the month (most of them anyway)
In the religious setting, masculinity isn’t really taught, and if a man didn’t learn it from his father society can lead him astray. Same with women who have daddy issues. There are some low T milquetoast Christians out there that have missed the point of Christian masculinity entirely in my opinion.
As you get older the other big sticking point is you are not in environments where mate selection can happen. If you miss the traditional life arc of finding a mate in university, church, grad school, or maybe work (which with HR rules these days is a high risk proposition) you miss the boat entirely. Then there is the fact that hormones decline and you’re wiser and will not deal with a women’s tantrums. When I was younger I had a higher tolerance for that because of biology and lust.
Yes. As I've said, women, though they carry intelligence in their DNA, act like lower IQ people because of their hormones/biology (high time preference). Both low IQ people and hormonal (low IQ are usually both, fairly debased, instinct creatures) do not plan for things, nor have the desire or ability to see long term.
This is the single biggest issue. When men are "made" (30s) there is this vestigial thing with youth and age gaps that cancels what they bring to the table out because they no longer are both 1) around many other women any longer but probably career women and 2) the society hates age gaps, because it is gynocentric. The reason that is so obvious is because non spoiled, practical (poorer) societies basically have neither problem, and are still quite apparent around the world today; you can visit them and see this live and it is demonstrable.
It's like you've been reading my posts and my mind. I've stressed this in the past, you are spot on.
I was at the church in Serbian part of Bosnia, looked around and during rush hour there was a girl praying for quite a bit of time at each icon. There was no service, she just decided to be there even though she probably was on her way from school/work. If that ain't wife material nothing is.
These are very important observations. I try telling all the young men in my family and parish to take the opportunities they have in their early 20s or even before that because they don't realise that things dry up quickly once you start working. At least in the UK, there is almost no way an Orthodox man that wants to live a liturgical life is going to find a suitable spouse at work. And also the more you see all the examples of crumbling relationships around you, the more wary you are of rolling the dice. It's much easier to do so when you're younger.
Yes, this, and where the whole thing got sabotaged and subverted: most younger women for the last 20+ years didn't have much of an interest in considering any real offer or dedication from a younger man, even if he were 3-5 years older. That's the whole issue. In the old world, everyone knew that if you didn't sell when your value was high, you pretty much weren't going to get married.
Now, you'll either not care, have your fun anyway and think working for the next 60 years will work out for you (precisely, you don't think about it as a woman) OR you'll just say, "I'll take my chances with that and hope something works out in my late 20s or early 30s." On a population level, we know how that worked out, already.
Yes, but they connected beforehand in both cases. So they basically went over there and came back married. I don’t know a ton of details, I can ask if anyone is interested. Both couldn’t return to the US right away, something about visa issues despite marriage? Like a waiting period for Russian citizen? So one went to Canada and one to Mexico. I remember the one guy meeting with our priest all the time and asking his blessing and now it all makes sense.
GrecoRoman
Catholic
Yes, I would say past a certain age and especially since age gap dating is frowned upon, the pool of mates becomes smaller and smaller. This may not be a problem for secular men as there are pretty women over 30 who are available for casual relationships. However for a religious man it’s a huge problem. The last point is another big one, as when you see relationships crumbling it makes an individual guarded and jaded.
For men who never marry it may be a calling to the religious life either in a monastery or priesthood. Living as a single man in the world is a road to hell in my opinion as the temptation is too strong. Maybe some can do it, but without the oversight of a religious community, chances are the man will succumb to sexual sin.
Yes, this is all very dicey right now. Waiting periods I think for all potential "spouses". They met in Canada, Mexico to keep in contact ... is that what you mean?
I don't know how this works itself out but I agree with you, the odds of you not "falling" into sexual sin/urges if you are in good shape especially (healthy) is almost a sure thing although it is true it can be quite intermittent. I've talked about this quite a bit on the forum, and you seem to agree; we see things eye to eye, for the most part. What age range are you in, Greco?
One thing people aren't realistic or honest about is how it's really only in the west where men "aren't needed" and thus for a long time the population at large has rejected the reality that men can be husbands and fathers well into middle age. I mention it because it's quite realistic, that is not super uncommon, for 40s and 50s men to marry and have kids in other cultures and countries throughout the world. As the mind/soul virus has grown and spread, yes, it is less common but one must keep that in mind when we talk about this topic and the issues in the "west"/developed world.
Even if a guy has the maturity to realize this at that age (he won't unless he's brought up in the Church), how many opportunities are there really for a religious Orthodox man? Our churches in the states have very few young women. Yes I was around a lot more attractive young women in my early 20s. But they were almost all secular girls looking to party and have fun.
I went from public high school to college to grad school to working full time. Not an uncommon progression. I do not think the opportunities I had back then were much greater than now. Maybe if I had joined some Christian group in college or something, that could've helped.
I saw it mentioned earlier, but it really is important to actually enjoy being around a woman. Many of them end up being pretty irritating once you get past their looks and the initial meeting stage. Also their willingness to follow your lead is very important. This is much easier with a college aged woman in my opinion. Several "conservative" Christian women end up being phonies and act like a secular feminist in sheep's clothing. Argumentative, bossy stuck in their ways, etc. Also be cautious if they're still single past 25. It might sound hypocritical to say this as men over 25, but men and women are different, age differently and age/experience affect us differently. You end up dealing with a woman whose expectations keep getting higher and higher, while her value is diminishing.
There are times I've tried to force something with the wrong woman, mostly due to loneliness or thirst, and in hindsight it is a good thing it didn't work out. It would have been a disaster to end up in a relationahip with several of these women. Sometimes my initial gut feeling keeps me away as well, and then I'll ignore some red flags, start getting attached and try to give it a shot. Always listen to your initial gut feeling. I've come to the conclusion that I'm only going for it from now on if that true genuine desire for the woman is there right away. Not easy to find, but it's a waste of time and mental energy otherwise.
Some of us get made fun of on here for wanting a virgin under 25, but that is the safest way to a happy marriage. If you can pull it off, go for it.
There are times I've tried to force something with the wrong woman, mostly due to loneliness or thirst, and in hindsight it is a good thing it didn't work out. It would have been a disaster to end up in a relationahip with several of these women. Sometimes my initial gut feeling keeps me away as well, and then I'll ignore some red flags, start getting attached and try to give it a shot. Always listen to your initial gut feeling. I've come to the conclusion that I'm only going for it from now on if that true genuine desire for the woman is there right away. Not easy to find, but it's a waste of time and mental energy otherwise.
Some of us get made fun of on here for wanting a virgin under 25, but that is the safest way to a happy marriage. If you can pull it off, go for it.
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I think they actually got married in one of those countries, but they have to stay there for some time before returning to the states. I’m assuming for immigration purposes for their new spouse. The one guy did end up moving to Canada and the other is planning to return back to states last I heard. I’ll ask around today for more details.
I think its possible to live as a single man in the world and remain chaste but its a very big cross. I actually think lust is less of a problem, compared to despondency. Because such men want to bring forth fruit and build families but instead they're are engaged in a pitched battle to stay in what looks like the same place - which can be demoralising. And despite not falling themselves, they actually live the consequences of the fall and chaos of society at large because it inevitably has its imprints on the women that they are exposed to and therefore limits their choice and ability to bring forth fruit.
GrecoRoman
Catholic
That’s why I believe a religious community is important. Even if the man never marries or has children, he can lead and guide others to avoid his mistakes from his past. It may be God’s plan to have certain men in this generation not marry but join religious orders or become priests. In time while not producing a family himself, he can lead others to produce fruit.
GrecoRoman
Catholic
I am approaching middle age.
You should have gone over to talk to this girl!