Thoughts on suicide

[Lawrence87]

Sadly too many of us in this day and age know of people who have either ended their own life due to reckless choices or directly through suicide. It is a testament to the spiritual darkness we are living under.

The Orthodox church does not give funeral rites to people who killed themselves, it does not bury them in their grounds and it does not commemorate them in their services.

This may sound cold and callous, but firstly it may serve as a deterent. And secondly the act itself is a denial of Christianity. It is a rejection of God's gift of life, a refusal to repent, it dishonours one's parents etc. If there is one act that says "I don't want to be in the church" more than any other, it is suicide. All other acts of apostasy can be repented of.

The church doesn't prohibit the faithful from praying for people who committed suicide in their private prayers. But it is no small matter from a Christian perspective. It's not a pronouncement of what the Lord's final judgement will be for these souls, but it is a grave matter and we should pray for them, and pray for the prevention of all souls who are considering it from going through with it.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

As to the eternal destiny of those who commit suicide. I agree that it is a heinous sin, as it is murder. We absolutely should not tempt the Lord by committing suicide. However, I am not convinced that it's the unforgivable sin.

The unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. There's some discussion as to what exactly that is but I've never seen anything that was able to convincingly link that text with the concept of suicide. It's eisegesis at that point.

As for the unforgivable sin itself, it's a theme that pops up in the Gospels but also in 1 John and in Hebrews. I believe the unforgivable sin is to come to a knowledge of Jesus, who He is and what He came to accomplish, and to deny Him anyway. Effectively, you are curtailing the Holy Spirit, who is the one who enlightens us to even believe in Jesus in the first place. 1 John says to not even pray for one who commits this sin and Hebrews says that it's impossible to restore such a one to repentance.

 

[GoodShepherd]

Yeah, it seems that as Christians we strive to achieve a balance. On one hand, we should be filled with joy, a fruit of the spirit, count our blessings, be thankful and glad. On the other hand, this is not our home, we should look for Jesus' coming, and not be attached here. So it's not all bad to not want to be here anymore, there can be a virtue that. For nonbelievers, man, they think death will ease their pain and suddenly they wake up and realize this world was the best they'll ever have it. For believers, this really is the worst we will have it. (Not intending to start a theological debate with anyone, so however one sees it on that matter).

Going back to the giving up/mini-suicide thing, I was thinking about how sin literally kills us slowly (or all at once), and how a person giving up invariably means they've given over to sin completely. That could mean something like drunkenness or being excessively lazy, etc. On some level, we all kill ourselves over time no matter what.

In our Orthodox prayer book there is a chapter that we read in private before we go to confession as a self examination, in the 6th commandment of that chapter it mentions something along the lines of what you are saying here, "have I wished I were dead" have I caused injury to myself or shortened my life by the way i have been living" this isnt word for word but its along those lines, so clearly this self examination part in the prayer book is here so that if we are going through this we should confess it to our priest and repent from it, Im not very well experienced with the topic of suicide but I do wonder if excessive material wealth, comforts and pleasure could be a major part in suicides, I cant help noticing that it seems suicides happen more in 1st world prosperous nations and mostly among the wealthy, look at hollywood for example they have these kinds of problems, buy the janitor who cleans their toilets doesnt. Im not saying wealth on its own could do this but like the hollywood people iftheir lives are meaningless and without God and the spiritual side it seems they fall into this where poor people in the 3rd world countries working hard and struggling in life dont seem to have high suicide rates, maybe Im looking at things wrong?

 

[GoodShepherd]

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It’s topics like this that make me question when people deal in absolutes when it comes to theology. Things like if a person commits suicide they automatically go to hell. It just screams of trying to understand God’s judgement or will. Or even worse simply an arrogant attempt by man to decipher something that is unknowable, the will and judgement of God.

So I’m not sure of the theological arguments, nor will I entertain them in the thread, but what can I tell you is simply my experience.

Mental disease, depression, and suicidal ideation are very real. When I was going through this my church community, the people around me, or even society at large did not do a good job of offering any support in these matters. Frankly, part was my own doing and as a stoic man, I didn’t really speak about it. The strange thing was that on paper, there was nothing wrong with me and people looking from the outside would never think I was in such a bad state.

But I came to close to killing myself a few times as in I made the plan and the method. It’s a long story, I won’t get into but in the end I realized that it was not my choice to make that decision to take my life. If you’ve encountered anyone who has dealt with grief, you will realize that you would be increasing pain in the world around you. That suffering that a person may have ended is just transferred to the people that knew them. It’s can be an incredibly selfish act. That’s not even getting into the spiritual aspect of such a decision.

I dont really see anyone on this thread up to this point saying you automatically go to hell for suicide, they did say its a serious thing and not to be taken lightly, I did see people say that we dont know Gods judgment for these people though, we also dont know Gods judgement on suicide so its also not good for anyone to brush it away as a minor thing not to worry about because that its also making a positive judgement of what God is going to do and we dont really know we will have to wait and see

 

[GoodShepherd]

So your (completely unsolicited) advice is, what, that I just be a better Christian? Thank you and carry on.

I saw an Orthodox priest father Peter Heers briefly talk about the suicide topic, he said any suicidal thoughts a person has is a demon putting those ideas in his head and that we shouldnt entertain those thought, we should HATE those thought and say satan get behind me. We must be aware that our thoughts are not always coming from us, the ancient Greeks even believed that our thoughts come from outside us from the Gods, like a daemon (literally a demon)

 

[thinkreadwritecode]

In our Orthodox prayer book there is a chapter that we read in private before we go to confession as a self examination, in the 6th commandment of that chapter it mentions something along the lines of what you are saying here, "have I wished I were dead" have I caused injury to myself or shortened my life by the way i have been living" this isnt word for word but its along those lines, so clearly this self examination part in the prayer book is here so that if we are going through this we should confess it to our priest and repent from it, Im not very well experienced with the topic of suicide but I do wonder if excessive material wealth, comforts and pleasure could be a major part in suicides, I cant help noticing that it seems suicides happen more in 1st world prosperous nations and mostly among the wealthy, look at hollywood for example they have these kinds of problems, buy the janitor who cleans their toilets doesnt. Im not saying wealth on its own could do this but like the hollywood people iftheir lives are meaningless and without God and the spiritual side it seems they fall into this where poor people in the 3rd world countries working hard and struggling in life dont seem to have high suicide rates, maybe Im looking at things wrong?

Who can know? I recall reading how medieval monks would commit suicide to escape the extreme boredom they felt. One can hardly state they lacked the spiritual side of life since that's all their life was, beyond long hours of prayer and copying books.

 

[TruckDriver9]

Their facebook website . Full of rainbow stuff, environmental stuff...


I suffer serious cognitive dissonance when I see these things. The picture of the woman who was euthanized looks like a happy grandmotherly woman, everyone looks happy there....

View attachment 7666

there are many many churches like this where they all believe they are being devout....

Lord have mercy. That's all I can say. I don't even know where to start with people like this

edit: I think technically this is in Canada, but still

This is not a Church - this is a satanic temple that practices human sacrifice.

 

[GoodShepherd]

Who can know? I recall reading how medieval monks would commit suicide to escape the extreme boredom they felt. One can hardly state they lacked the spiritual side of life since that's all their life was, beyond long hours of prayer and copying books.

Thats not right what those monks did though, they still dont know what God will or wont do on the day of judgment day we are not God and that day hasnt yet come. Iv read many stories where monks did things they shouldnt have done, the one guy didnt listen to his elder and fell into prelest about a certain thing and long story short satan transformed himself into a saint for this disobedient monk and this monk venerated satan thinking it was a saint and when he kissed his hand he saw satans long claws and the filthy hand but it was too late and satan said "you are mine" and he passed out on the ground, the story didnt end there but it gives you an idea

 

[ginsu]

Sadly too many of us in this day and age know of people who have either ended their own life due to reckless choices or directly through suicide. It is a testament to the spiritual darkness we are living under.

The Orthodox church does not give funeral rites to people who killed themselves, it does not bury them in their grounds and it does not commemorate them in their services.

This may sound cold and callous, but firstly it may serve as a deterent. And secondly the act itself is a denial of Christianity. It is a rejection of God's gift of life, a refusal to repent, it dishonours one's parents etc. If there is one act that says "I don't want to be in the church" more than any other, it is suicide. All other acts of apostasy can be repented of.

The church doesn't prohibit the faithful from praying for people who committed suicide in their private prayers. But it is no small matter from a Christian perspective. It's not a pronouncement of what the Lord's final judgement will be for these souls, but it is a grave matter and we should pray for them, and pray for the prevention of all souls who are considering it from going through with it.

So people who have chronic health issues should continue suffering for the rest of their life on this planet until their body gives out ?. Is that godly, is this what god wants from those people. My neighbour had cancerous tumors growing all over his face, he shot himself in the head. I do not know if he was religious but i guess the chances are higher because he was an elderly man and its more common in that generation.

He was at the end of his life but there are many young people who are looking at decades of waking up everyday to being sick, not being able to do anything in life and actually live. What do they get for their faith ? Keep going until the day you die and be gratefull for your suffering. While some random normie seems to be living a blessed life laughing at the idea of faith and the church.

 

[Rodion]

So people who have chronic health issues should continue suffering for the rest of their life on this planet until their body gives out ?. Is that godly, is this what god wants from those people. My neighbour had cancerous tumors growing all over his face, he shot himself in the head. If god is good why do such horrible things happen to decent people AND they are expected to just suffer them each day and wake up and told to be gratefull to for another day of suffering.

Sometimes it can be a difficult thing to accept. It’s easy, when in good health and vigour, to adhere to the Christian teaching on suicide and doubtless painful and difficult when you, or a loved one are in terrible pain. But suicide is still a grave sin, a misuse of our will against the ordinance of God.

The first problematic presupposition is the idea that death is an end to suffering. The Christian view is that there is life after death, and the soul will experience a foretaste of its allotted place come the General Resurrection.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. "And it came to pass that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: and he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame". But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things, but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Then he said, "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren, that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment". ' Abraham saith unto him, "They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them". And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent". ' And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead"

Although in Luke 16 this is said prior to Christ’s resurrection, it still attests to potential torment after death and a place for the righteous and for the unrighteous, which is consistent in Christian teachings. It also attests ease and comfort are the broad path to perdition, and sufferings and sorrow are encountered on the narrow path to salvation. This is further compounded by the writings and lives of many Saints who say that illnesses and suffering can have a purifying effect and can also bring people to repentance.

How does God allow seemingly terrible things happen to decent people? I can’t really answer adequately, but then how can we judge the actions of God when we have no way of accounting for the “good” or “bad” without God in the first place.

Also, from an ethical standpoint, where do you draw the line? Which chronic illnesses are sufficient enough? How do you stop people trying to move the goalposts all the time? How do you discern how much one person suffers vs another?

 

[Christos_NIKA]

Perhaps this is useful for someone struggling with such questions:

 

[SeekingTruth]

So people who have chronic health issues should continue suffering for the rest of their life on this planet until their body gives out ?. Is that godly, is this what god wants from those people. My neighbour had cancerous tumors growing all over his face, he shot himself in the head. I do not know if he was religious but i guess the chances are higher because he was an elderly man and its more common in that generation.

He was at the end of his life but there are many young people who are looking at decades of waking up everyday to being sick, not being able to do anything in life and actually live. What do they get for their faith ? Keep going until the day you die and be gratefull for your suffering. While some random normie seems to be living a blessed life laughing at the idea of faith and the church.

Interestingly enough, I found religion at one of the lower points in my life, albeit nothing to the extremes you note above. But I think this has something to do with it.

I find that when things seem to be going well for me, I become more spiritually weak and prone to temptations.

 

[Christos_NIKA]

Interestingly enough, I found religion at one of the lower points in my life, albeit nothing to the extremes you note above. But I think this has something to do with it.

I find that when things seem to be going well for me, I become more spiritually weak and prone to temptations.

The Church Fathers recognized this and that is why there are 4 great fasts during the Church calendar year (we're currently in the middle of one). I don't know how many Catholics still fast, but it is expected in Orthodoxy. Even Jesus told us to pray and fast, so as to avoid temptation. Remember the demon His disciples could not banish? Jesus said that type of demon can only be removed through prayer and fasting.

 

[Lawrence87]

So people who have chronic health issues should continue suffering for the rest of their life on this planet until their body gives out ?. Is that godly, is this what god wants from those people. My neighbour had cancerous tumors growing all over his face, he shot himself in the head. I do not know if he was religious but i guess the chances are higher because he was an elderly man and its more common in that generation.

He was at the end of his life but there are many young people who are looking at decades of waking up everyday to being sick, not being able to do anything in life and actually live. What do they get for their faith ? Keep going until the day you die and be gratefull for your suffering. While some random normie seems to be living a blessed life laughing at the idea of faith and the church.

I don't mean to make light of this topic because it is grave, and I do not know how I would cope if presented with the same circumstances. I can only pray that we are all protected from such suffering.

That said, suicide is a statement. In many ways the ultimate statement that a person can make about their life. And it can be inferred from it, a lack of Christian beliefs. Indeed it is possibly the most strident and confident way that one could make a denial of faith in Christ.

We can infer from this example that the person did not see anything redemptive in their experience. That it was just pointless pain and that death would be a relief. As it says in the Scriptures 'And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God'. So we can infer that this person did not see any good in what was happening, and one can perhaps empathise, but it still, in the most ultimate sense betrays a lack of faith in a God that is ultimately good.

Life is a gift from God, and we should glorify Him for all things. It is difficult to really appreciate, but many Saints said 'Glory to God for all things' and meant it, as they lay dying and suffering in agony. To throw our precious life away is ultimate denial of God, his gift of life and his love for us. Not to mention it is an act for which repentance is impossible.

It is a hard saying, but suicide is an ultimate and final denial of God.

 

[Rax Moscow]

What about the easing towards heaven of someone who is nearing the end of their life? What is the biblical position on compassionate ending of a life which is already near the end?

I have a family member who is rapidly deteriorating. In looking at the possible future living conditions, I have visited a nursing home. There are some people who are still normal and able to converse, but in the more severe wings, you have dozens of lifeless bodies just staring off into space, waiting for an attendant to feed them, shower them, or take them to the bathroom, and then repeat that over and over again endlessly. They cannot effectively communicate, or at least don't make any sense, which to me, makes it questionable whether they still have consciousness. Are they even able to understand what is going on, or to center their thoughts to God when they finally pass?

I see these places as disturbing and somewhat evil. And to some extent, one can blame families, who should be caring for these relatives, but there are still plenty of cases where it is unreasonable to expect family to care for a very old and invalid relative. Should I stop working so that I can care 24/7 for my great aunt whose children are all dead?

I have a close family friend who is almost 70. She's in very good health, but she told me recently she is ready to meet God and has no fear of death. She has made peace with all her family members and friends here on earth, regularly attends church, and is ready to meet her maker (I don't mean to say she is hoping to die soon--she is a very happy and joyful person and still able to experience life fully). I felt joyful and warm hearing that she is prepared to meet God and has no fear of death.

But when I think about her, if she were confined to a wheelchair, unable to control her bodily functions, having a nursemaid clean her bedpan, and prepare food to give her while she sits in front of a tv screen and slowly withers away, I do not see it as evil or bad if she chose to, as they would in the old days, chew on some hemlock one evening, and pass on in her sleep. Is this wrong? Is this sinful?

Also, if you have not visited a nursing home or rehabilitation center in the states, you should do so before considering your answer. While there are some happy people there, and even some very caring staff, I fear those are the exception, and I cannot imagine living in such circumstances. Would it be evil to put something in my wine and go to sleep and never wake, if I find myself losing my mind and abilities at age 75? Will that condemn me to hell? Should I just wither away for another 10 years, soaking up all my relatives inheritance so that I can watch tv game shows and eat baby food in a stinky room? It just seems inhuman and ungodly to me.

 

[Lawrence87]

Whether or not to prolong someone's pain and suffering is a difficult question. Medicine has advanced to the point where you can artificially prolong someone's life almost indefinitely if you count being plugged into a machine "alive".

I guess ultimately choosing not to extend someone's life beyond a certain point is different to injecting them with a load of drugs that will kill them.

In my opinion that is where the line is. If someone is suffering a great deal then the best course of action at a certain point is to move from keeping them alive to managing their pain so that they can pass on. Personally I don't believe actually killing them is justified

EDIT to expand a bit:

In Orthodoxy even justified killing is treated as cause for excommunication. Soldiers who go to war, whilst not having killed unlawfully, and not necessarily shunned by the church, they are still excommunicated for 3 years if they take a life. This is because taking a life, even in a context where it is justified such as war, is still a violation of God's order of things, and does damage to the soul that needs to be repaired with spiritual care before one can enter into Communion with God once more. That is to say, I do not think there is cause to argue that health care professionals should be put in a position wherein they are required to take a life as a part of their job.

 

[Bird]

wait for the patient to hurry up and finish dying, and harvest the organ.

As far as I know, the donor must be alive to get a functioning organ. That's why I formally refused to be an organ donor.

 

[Jeremiah Branch]

When I look around at the world today, particularly in America and the West generally, where there is widespread despair, family dissolution, atomization, and various factors that work against people in pervasive, continuous and deep ways, it does force me to think more carefully about the question of suicide, and it makes it hard to view it in purely black and white terms. At the least, I would say that I have a hard time picturing a loving and compassionate God visiting eternal damnation on people who, largely through no fault of their own, went down a path that was extremely self-destructive and ended in a kind of passive "suicide" (negligent overdose, offing themselves when drunk or when pushed too far by circumstances).

As one category of example, there are quite a few people today who come from broken homes, live on the street or in horrible circumstances, with very little if any way out, no prospects, etc AND (this is important) who have never really been enlightened by an encounter with Christ. One could say that some people who appear furthest away from God are precisely those who are most in need of, and may in the end receive, God's mercy.

There are a lot of assumptions tied up in all of this. The specific circumstance and life matters. And also one's view on free will, God's grace, etc. will also color one's view of what I am saying: A Calvinist might say that God's not giving such persons grace to get them through the situation is proof that they are "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." (Rom 9:22) And a Roman Catholic or Orthodox might say "no salvation outside of the church" etc.

I don't presume to judge anyone, which is up to God. But by the same token, I wouldn't presume to condemn anyone on a formulaic basis when we know God is compassionate.

Many of the type of person I am thinking of are in large part the victims of their parents' or ancestors sins: "I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me." In many cases it was the parents or grandparents who "hated" God, and the children are suffering for it in this life, and perhaps God will show mercy on them in the next.

My understanding is that both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy show some nuance on the question of suicide. Here is the statement of the current Catechism of the [Roman] Catholic Church: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide." (par. 2282) and "We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives." (par. 2283)

 

[fortyfive]

Hospice is a kind of prison, where all inmates are sentenced to death but don't know the time of the execution.
They are guilty of not serving the system anymore and burdening relatives' consciences.

 

[RedLagoon]

Hospice is a kind of prison, where all inmates are sentenced to death but don't know the time of the execution.
They are guilty of not serving the system anymore and burdening relatives' consciences.

Or you could call it a racket. Some good comments in this thread by the way.

My personal take on this is that I know some men who committed suicide during the lockdown nonsense here and I still pray for them as I believe they believed they had no other way out or felt they were a burden on their families.

I'm not justified on the theological aspect of it so I'll leave that to the ones more qualified.