The Destruction of Modern Women

N°6 said:
Yes it was although I have seen others.

It seems that men consider the average women not as a 5 but as a 5.5 and that Chad is only a 7.5.

Yet misogyny is frequently used whereas misandry seems to have recently become an archaic term.

I am not sure if this chart describes online attractiveness or whether it is an absolute scale so the average man with a fiat rating of 2.5 may find himself enjoying life as a 1.25 on a smart phone app.
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I may have seen the charts from this youtube channel:

 
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I saw this on FB and I had to say a few things about it.

1. Someone married this woman and slept with her, they had kids.
2. Despite being the ugliest woman in the world, this woman was still able to make a living off of her looks, which I had to laugh about because so many women try so hard to look good enough to be noticed on their instagram or onlyfans when a woman like this was able to raise a family from being a circus freak. Essentially modeling.

That is all.
 
I stole this from somewhere else on the forum but I feel like it has a home in this thread as well. I am seeing a trend in these type videos were when a young woman is challenged on her world views she just breaks down crying..... Imagine what is going to happen when a real life event comes and smacks these young people in their face and crying and walking off set isn't going to give them the safe space they need to cope....



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thinkreadwritecode said:
I can't recall a single sermon addressing women. If pastors and clergymen cannot address half their congregation about their sins then who is keeping Christian women accountable (I have no hope for secular women). It's like if a guy can find a low-fat woman who loves him, keeps him from fornicating or adultery and can competently raise kids and run a household she's a unicorn. I think male clergy are often too weak to address women or people feel like they don't want to be mansplained. Isn't it up to the elder females in households to hold women accountable and teach them? All it took was for the Silents and the Boomers to become feminists and then you have the problem we have where wise women counselors have disappeared and will probably be gone for generations.
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It’s worse than that. At a nearby Orthodox church I visited there were several women who dressed, to put it lightly, very provocatively during liturgy. I’m talking short skirts and push up bras. They seemed to be between 20 and 30. This happened a few months in a row and the priests did nothing. I guess it was ok? This was an Antiochian church. In their defense I did see one of these ladies all covered up at one liturgy when she was with who I believe was her father.
 
TruthTeller said:
It’s worse than that. At a nearby Orthodox church I visited there were several women who dressed, to put it lightly, very provocatively during liturgy. I’m talking short skirts and push up bras. They seemed to be between 20 and 30. This happened a few months in a row and the priests did nothing. I guess it was ok? This was an Antiochian church. In their defense I did see one of these ladies all covered up at one liturgy when she was with who I believe was her father.
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This is horrible. Many priests really feel like they can't say anything corrective to women, lest they run away. Some priests immediately confront new male converts who wear hats to take them off, as St. Paul says, the man's head should be uncovered. But half the congregation of women don't veil, and not a word is said, as if Christ doesn't care about it. God will not turn a blind eye to things like this on judgement day.

It's lamentable that some of most pious Orthodox Christians I know let it slide, because they are scared of falling into judgement. No one says anything. Taking saint quotes out of context to allow for prolonged disobedience to Christ, such as "Immodest women coming to Church may be good for them, they're at Church, the hospital, therefore they benefit."

Two problems. Modern women receive constant affirmation about who they are. We have small amounts of extreme leftists in The Church like "Orthodoxy in Dialogue" who say the quiet part out loud, that they don't really believe women have to dress for God or man. The Church isn't just a building, so silence or even clear disobedience like this will not bring women to healing.
The second problem is that what people do affect others. If a visitor comes to an Orthodox Church and sees how the women behave and is tempted to give up on The Church, what do people who are ok with being silent about women's modesty because they think these women are being healed have to say? Nothing. Because the reality is unrepentant immodest women are hurting The Body of Christ, not being healed by The Church.
 
WoodArch4033 said:
This is horrible. Many priests really feel like they can't say anything corrective to women, lest they run away. Some priests immediately confront new male converts who wear hats to take them off, as St. Paul says, the man's head should be uncovered. But half the congregation of women don't veil, and not a word is said, as if Christ doesn't care about it. God will not turn a blind eye to things like this on judgement day.

It's lamentable that some of most pious Orthodox Christians I know let it slide, because they are scared of falling into judgement. No one says anything. Taking saint quotes out of context to allow for prolonged disobedience to Christ, such as "Immodest women coming to Church may be good for them, they're at Church, the hospital, therefore they benefit."

Two problems. Modern women receive constant affirmation about who they are. We have small amounts of extreme leftists in The Church like "Orthodoxy in Dialogue" who say the quiet part out loud, that they don't really believe women have to dress for God or man. The Church isn't just a building, so silence or even clear disobedience like this will not bring women to healing.
The second problem is that what people do affect others. If a visitor comes to an Orthodox Church and sees how the women behave and is tempted to give up on The Church, what do people who are ok with being silent about women's modesty because they think these women are being healed have to say? Nothing. Because the reality is unrepentant immodest women are hurting The Body of Christ, not being healed by The Church.
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Veiling is a cultural custom, not a universal Orthodox requirement. Yes, in the Russian tradition the vast majority of women do veil. In the Balkans it is less common. And in Greece or the Middle East few women will wear a veil. Women should probably do whatever is the typical custom of their parish and not try to stick out.

I agree that priests need to take a firmer stance against immodest dress. But they know how to approach this topic carefully. Laymen like us should stay out of it. If we scare even one woman away from the Church by seeming judgmental, we will have to account for that before God on the day of our judgement. I recall the story of a priest who admonished someone that criticized an immodestly dressed woman with her child. The woman left during the liturgy, and the priest commanded that person to pray for her the rest of their life that she may be saved because she might never step foot in a church again.
 
Cynllo said:
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Ha, feel for this guy but his original goal was delusional. If he really thought he was going to get an under 35 at 57 in the US he’s dreaming. His only avenue would have been paying for it directly or through sugaring or settling for the psychotic leftovers like the ones he said he met. I hope he’s doing better in Thailand, but there are much better looking guys I know who struggle and they aren’t even 40 yet.

When he talks about the boxes yep. If she finds just one small thing wrong you’re out, she has infinite choice and Chad #58 will be right around the corner. Good on him for leaving.
 
analyst_green said:
Veiling is a cultural custom, not a universal Orthodox requirement. Yes, in the Russian tradition the vast majority of women do veil. In the Balkans it is less common. And in Greece or the Middle East few women will wear a veil. Women should probably do whatever is the typical custom of their parish and not try to stick out.

I agree that priests need to take a firmer stance against immodest dress. But they know how to approach this topic carefully. Laymen like us should stay out of it.
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analyst_green said:
If we scare even one woman away from the Church by seeming judgmental, we will have to account for that before God on the day of our judgement.
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Is this supported by the Orthodox church or is this just your opinion? This seems extreme and ridiculous in my mind. If a woman is so thin skinned that she leaves the church over being told to dress more modestly by a member, she has way bigger problems.

analyst_green said:
I recall the story of a priest who admonished someone that criticized an immodestly dressed woman with her child. The woman left during the liturgy, and the priest commanded that person to pray for her the rest of their life that she may be saved because she might never step foot in a church again.
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Again seems extreme. What if she was coming in for months dressing like a harlot and the priest did nothing? To me it sounds like sour grapes, the priest failed to do his job and took it out in the parishioner.
 
analyst_green said:
Veiling is a cultural custom, not a universal Orthodox requirement. Yes, in the Russian tradition the vast majority of women do veil. In the Balkans it is less common. And in Greece or the Middle East few women will wear a veil. Women should probably do whatever is the typical custom of their parish and not try to stick out.
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It's less of a custom and more of what is in the Bible. If a culture and tradition "devolves" to no longer have that custom during worship, then it's going against what is directed in the New Testament.

I agree that priests need to take a firmer stance against immodest dress. But they know how to approach this topic carefully. Laymen like us should stay out of it. If we scare even one woman away from the Church by seeming judgmental, we will have to account for that before God on the day of our judgement. I recall the story of a priest who admonished someone that criticized an immodestly dressed woman with her child. The woman left during the liturgy, and the priest commanded that person to pray for her the rest of their life that she may be saved because she might never step foot in a church again.
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It might be a bit of a stretch, but this same argument could be used in support of "Fiducia supplicans" by Catholics. Maybe the Pope has signaled this to help keep sodomites in the Church - who are we to judge or get involved? You see how that line of thinking could possibly spiral out of control?

As for myself, I have many times seen immodestly dressed young women in Church. As I have wanted to speak with them and let them know their attire was inappropriate, I came to the realization that I had looked at them with lust, so I reserved judgement and prayed to be forgiven for my lust. Once I have that under control, I will not hesitate for a second to speak with them and let them know their attire is inappropriate for the house of the Lord.
 
thinkreadwritecode said:
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I saw this on FB and I had to say a few things about it.

1. Someone married this woman and slept with her, they had kids.
2. Despite being the ugliest woman in the world, this woman was still able to make a living off of her looks, which I had to laugh about because so many women try so hard to look good enough to be noticed on their instagram or onlyfans when a woman like this was able to raise a family from being a circus freak. Essentially modeling.

That is all.
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Wow, I had to look this up. Regarding your first point, she apparently developed this disfiguring condition several years after getting married. She was actually fairly attractive; here are before and after photos:

 
DeusLuxMeaEst said:
Is this supported by the Orthodox church or is this just your opinion? This seems extreme and ridiculous in my mind. If a woman is so thin skinned that she leaves the church over being told to dress more modestly by a member, she has way bigger problems.
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I simply believe we shouldn't take any such action without speaking to our priest. Perhaps he will say there is something you can do, but we must respect his authority over his flock. Unless you're sure what the final judgment will be like, a bit of prudence is called for in these matters.

In another thread, someone posted an article about a woman who committed suicide after being arrested for indecent exposure. The cops did the right thing, but that's how fragile someone's state of mind can be. And I certainly don't want a grave mistake on my conscience.

At my parish we haven't had many dress code issues. Everyone tends to set an example for others. Once I saw a guy wearing shorts, and I could see he felt out of place. Never saw him do it again after that.
DeusLuxMeaEst said:
Again seems extreme. What if she was coming in for months dressing like a harlot and the priest did nothing? To me it sounds like sour grapes, the priest failed to do his job and took it out in the parishioner.
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She wasn't dressed like a harlot, I think it was just the lack of a veil or something small. She was probably a first time visitor during the liturgy, there was literally nothing the priest could do at that point. If someone makes repeated offenses then that's a different story.

Narekatsi said:
It's less of a custom and more of what is in the Bible. If a culture and tradition "devolves" to no longer have that custom during worship, then it's going against what is directed in the New Testament.
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You may be right, but that's on the Church leadership to figure out. If a woman sees that every woman around her is unveiled, and the clergy do not object, she's not going to see anything wrong with going unveiled. You won't be doing anyone on any favors by going up to her and criticizing her for it.
 
DeusLuxMeaEst said:
Is this supported by the Orthodox church or is this just your opinion? This seems extreme and ridiculous in my mind. If a woman is so thin skinned that she leaves the church over being told to dress more modestly by a member, she has way bigger problems.



Again seems extreme. What if she was coming in for months dressing like a harlot and the priest did nothing? To me it sounds like sour grapes, the priest failed to do his job and took it out in the parishioner.
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This isn't an official Orthodox Church position. A priest sometimes is told only one side of parish drama. I would know. Parish drama happened to me, but God revealed to my priest that the accusations weren't true. I'm friends again now with the man who was telling my priest falsities, and he asked for my forgiveness. My priest asked forgiveness for making a sermon about me without speaking with me, and I forgave him.

What??!!! Priests can make mistakes?? Yeah, yes they can, and it can be true at the same time that it's not good to cause disruption and delegitimize their authority over their parish, but we don't have to mindlessly believe everything our shepherds say, and to never say anything true that one might disagree with.

I used to be on Facebook, and I am friends with a more older woman and was friends on Facebook too, when at coffee hour my priest, my guy friend, and I were talking about werewolves and beasts and demonic forces in the world, and I also said Origen is condemned, the women assumed I wasn't friends with the guy and I may have been scaring him away, and she also assumed I was being judgmental to her because she said positive things about Origen. I ignored that post (she made a post about it anonymously calling it out) and forgave her silently. I no longer have Facebook, and my continual unconditional friendliness with her in person seems to have silently shown her that it wasn't true. My male friend is a great friend and faithful Orthodox Christian now. Neither my buddy nor my priest ever thought I did any wrong to suggest such an impression.

There are two ways to address immodesty, as a friend, or if it's such bad immodesty: as a neighbor, to make sure they know it's unacceptable for next time they come, gently. We have children in our Churches! Young teenage men struggling with lust, do women even care about that? If they don't have love for these little ones, such women won't be worthy of The Kingdom no matter how nice we are to them, we will hope to pray for them though. In America I'm not suggesting that people walk up to more liberal converts, or especially those simply interested in The Church only if the women aren't wearing headscarves and if they are modest in every other way.

I am saying that for those who we know will not reject pearls, as friends we share with them the practice. And as priests, they must address the congregation equally, if they know that a woman is humble and will hear, there is no reason to be silent about our big T Tradition and scriptural practice. Silence of clergy is atheism.
 
analyst_green said:
You may be right, but that's on the Church leadership to figure out. If a woman sees that every woman around her is unveiled, and the clergy do not object, she's not going to see anything wrong with going unveiled. You won't be doing anyone on any favors by going up to her and criticizing her for it.
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I simply don't believe it's up to The Church leadership to figure out what has already been true for generations and generations, though it is not a sin if someone obeys a priest in simplicity even if he's wrong and in The Church.
Latins have the problem of having to hold high every word of the pope even when his actions indicate apostasy, but in Orthodoxy if the faithful wait for a bishop to repent on extreme matters such as Elpidophorus, we have the ability to flee to the shelter of faithful bishops, (Because by the grace of God we still have them in our Church who have full authority over their flock and complete Christ's mission) at the same time being patient with bishops and understanding that we can also faithfully commune and live under the shelter of imperfect priests and bishops, because they aren't required to be right on everything.

Iron sharpens iron. If one knows a woman who is ignorant on this will receive it well, or at least not unreasonable feel as if someone criticized her by simply stating our tradition and scriptures, then that is a good thing to do in meekness.

And especially if a priest is hard on men, and makes sermons about men, the priest with his authority to give spiritual advice should cultivate humility in women. If women are unable to even tolerate our scriptural and saintly tradition, why are they even in our Church? I'm not worrying nor judging by condemning, rather if one cares for the souls of others, they might realize how such a mindset of a woman like that needs more humility added to it.

There are some within the Church in America who cannot even tolerate seeing other pious women veil their heads when they pray for God. They think that it's a sign of oppression, and that it reminds them of Islam. We simply say in meekness to those who can understand, that those women are wrong who think that. It is not the women who veil who are at fault, just because a woman gets triggered. If someone has a good heart and shows meekness, and a woman does not receive it well simply because of the substance of the tradition, Christ is pleased with the one who has a good heart in this case.
 
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WoodArch4033 said:
This isn't an official Orthodox Church position. A priest sometimes is told only one side of parish drama. I would know. Parish drama happened to me,
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Interesting point and post. Off topic regarding the women, but I had some parish drama happen to me when I was exploring Orthodoxy. I don’t know if there’s more gossip in Orthodox vs. Catholic circles because of the ethnic component. Gossip and drama are everywhere, but I was kind of put off by not just the drama but the nosiness of my priest. I remember the first sit down I had with him it started normally and what seemed like just networking chit chat. Like so and so is in your industry, you’ll probably get along with so and so, etc.

Then after a few it became, so and so family left the church and came back, so and so’s uncle was mad when I became a priest, I told the bishop about you. Being a private person I found the entire thing weird.

I understand this is more common in small knit communities and looking on one side it can be good because it keeps behavior in check, but also me being Americanized didn’t like it.


WoodArch4033 said:
but God revealed to my priest that the accusations weren't true. I'm friends again now with the man who was telling my priest falsities, and he asked for my forgiveness. My priest asked forgiveness for making a sermon about me without speaking with me, and I forgave him.

What??!!! Priests can make mistakes?? Yeah, yes they can, and it can be true at the same time that it's not good to cause disruption and delegitimize their authority over their parish, but we don't have to mindlessly believe everything our shepherds say, and to never say anything true that one might disagree with.

I used to be on Facebook, and I am friends with a more older woman and was friends on Facebook too, when at coffee hour my priest, my guy friend, and I were talking about werewolves and beasts and demonic forces in the world, and I also said Origen is condemned, the women assumed I wasn't friends with the guy and I may have been scaring him away, and she also assumed I was being judgmental to her because she said positive things about Origen. I ignored that post (she made a post about it anonymously calling it out) and forgave her silently.
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I would find this totally weird.

WoodArch4033 said:
I no longer have Facebook, and my continual unconditional friendliness with her in person seems to have silently shown her that it wasn't true. My male friend is a great friend and faithful Orthodox Christian now. Neither my buddy nor my priest ever thought I did any wrong to suggest such an impression.

There are two ways to address immodesty, as a friend, or if it's such bad immodesty: as a neighbor, to make sure they know it's unacceptable for next time they come, gently. We have children in our Churches! Young teenage men struggling with lust, do women even care about that? If they don't have love for these little ones, such women won't be worthy of The Kingdom no matter how nice we are to them, we will hope to pray for them though. In America I'm not suggesting that people walk up to more liberal converts, or especially those simply interested in The Church only if the women aren't wearing headscarves and if they are modest in every other way.
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