The Destruction of Modern Women
- Thread starter Let God Arise
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Married women is actually worse, considering all things.
Daddy government is their man, but they'll be sure to remind you they don't need no man.
Or we have the careerists. Their boss and job is like a version of husband and family. Democrats prey on unhappy people. Sad!
Or we have the careerists. Their boss and job is like a version of husband and family. Democrats prey on unhappy people. Sad!
The problem is the scare mongering about abuse in a Christian marriage. Sure some people fall through the cracks. And that’s what caused this behavior in women. The are afraid of falling through the cracks. They think husbands were tyrants before 2nd wave feminism.
I’m surprised nobody calls out the scare mongering more. I know many older couples who were married during this time. The seem genuinely happy and enjoy their spouse. That’s one benefit of church, you meet people from the bad old days. Second, men fall through the cracks too. How many men have to put up with a cheating spouse so they don’t lose everything in the divorce? How many battered men? Men can fall through the cracks too. Furthermore, you’re more likely to have a boomer boss or the government is more likely to go tyrannical than having a bad marriage. There’s at least a human relationship. To the government and the boomer boss, you’re just a number on a spreadsheet.
This is how I always handle it:
“There is no national abortion ban. I’m actually against a national ban believe it or not. If young ladies have an issue take it up with the state legislature or move. If you can’t be bothered to move over this issue, it’s clearly not as important as staying put. America is not a monolithic state. It has several subcultures that fall under the umbrella of America. Asking a culture changes its values to suit yours is kind of awful. Some people don’t want to be swimming in dead babies and that’s ok. Other people are ok with swimming in dead babies and if you want to be too, move. California, New York, and Illinois exist. If the issue is that important you can leave. If you can’t be bothered to do the work and leave, not sure what to tell you. Can’t be that important to you and you’re just making noise.”
It will be interesting to see how collective manhood (or a good section of it) reacts to any crisis and its aftermath.
I don’t see a casual switch to traditionalism as being sufficient. There should be explicit reminders that many women lived in these delusions before “the reversion”.
Ukraine will be a good litmus test, despite the differences with West European countries and their offshoots in the Anglosphere.
If the Gen X, Millennial and Gen Z Ukrainian men go along with “boss girl” delusions after the hundreds of thousands of dead Ukrainian males and even more physically wounded ones, the prognosis looks awful.
There has to be addressing of the idea that traditionalism is not just "I'll have a family" or the supposed desire to want one at some point in the future, but a sincere action on being traditional, meaning having children at a young age and committing to a man giving your youth as part of the deal for marriage. Nothing else matters as there really isn't an incentive for a man to marry unless it's a girl who is younger. In modern life, it's not like "young" is really all that young anymore, either.
All of it comes down to there being excess "money" or resources for women in an economy, or not. Fewer men, as I've said, means an economy that is less robust, of course, and a higher F:M ratio, both of which are the only real selection pressures on women (be better looking, be thin, be young).
Question to everyone: Considering the way the situation is - would you going down the path of celibacy without becoming a monastic be an option you would consider?
There's a thread on celibacy already but it's in the Orthodoxy sub-forum. However, I think this should be a subject that Christians of all stripes could explore. I'm surprised hasn't come up more often yet actually since we're all about discussing the ills of the modern world and how to respond to it. It seems like the two most common responses to the WQ (woman question) on here is either to grind it out and keeping looking for a wife within the western country you currently are in or to go overseas. I do think we need to discuss a third option which is to simply remain single for the duration of your earthly life. The most extreme form of this would be to become a monk but I'm guessing no one here feels a calling for it so for most people it would be just remaining single as a layperson.
If the way the typical modern women is being described in this thread is accurate, then it seems like marriage and just any sort of non-professional relationship with a woman is mostly a net negative. I wrote this in the thread earlier
If this is true, then wouldn't celibacy be the best option for a lot of men in today's climate?
There's a thread on celibacy already but it's in the Orthodoxy sub-forum. However, I think this should be a subject that Christians of all stripes could explore. I'm surprised hasn't come up more often yet actually since we're all about discussing the ills of the modern world and how to respond to it. It seems like the two most common responses to the WQ (woman question) on here is either to grind it out and keeping looking for a wife within the western country you currently are in or to go overseas. I do think we need to discuss a third option which is to simply remain single for the duration of your earthly life. The most extreme form of this would be to become a monk but I'm guessing no one here feels a calling for it so for most people it would be just remaining single as a layperson.
If the way the typical modern women is being described in this thread is accurate, then it seems like marriage and just any sort of non-professional relationship with a woman is mostly a net negative. I wrote this in the thread earlier
If this is true, then wouldn't celibacy be the best option for a lot of men in today's climate?
We talk about this all the time, and I don't have a problem with anyone who points a finger at me or others that struggle with the question, and say "you just don't have enough faith". The problem is that this usually comes from married men or others who have given up, and it belittles the struggle of being a decent man or a lot more, who has T and (let's just call it what it is) wants to have sex. Or at least, someone who has a hard time imagining giving up the idea of ever seeking sex again until advanced ages (60+) make it more "realistic" not to.
This is somewhat of an indirect admission, or rhetorical question, that of course you are correct in asking. It's actually worse than that: it's almost forced on most men already. I can't speak for other people and mostly because of personal narratives and ego, as well as frankly people being dishonest about how average or far from "desirable" they are (whatever the climate) but where the rubber hits the road is where I've always talked about what the forum really is: Should above average guys, or very well off in many ways, give up? Tons turn to places like this for camaraderie as much as they do for the schemes, plans, or hopes of trying to find a good woman. Let's face it, and I've said it a thousand times, most guys are looking for all the 6.5 and up women, and that percentage is like 2% in the society; most are taken. Since the 6 isn't young or behave all that well anyway, most shrug their shoulders even at that. If you go overseas you can at least meet and have some outside shot of at least dating fairly attractive women (or better) at something like 10-fold. Compare to that considering that you have to make crazy money AND put crazy effort into even meeting a girl who is somewhat attractive in the west. It's a non starter.
Everyone here and on the internet generally (and I don't blame them) thinks the next guy is an internet/keyboard jockey, and generally full of crap or overestimates himself. Certainly, given hypergamy and how ridiculous women are at this point, that sentiment is sorta baked into the cake. Another part of being a man, or a "quality" of it, is always trying regardless of the reality. I think that's why this question pops up over and over again.
If anything I think celibacy as a lifestyle whether it be purely by choice or if someone gets "forced" into it it doesn't get talked about enough. The dominant theme on this forum seems to be that celibacy is reserved for monastics and that if you aren't one, then you need to be looking to get married whether it be via self-improving or by going abroad. There's one thread on the Orthodox sub-forum that does discuss celibacy as a lifestyle and how a person living that lifestyle but it's one thread within a forum where the overwhelming message is that men are either already going to be in a relationship or should be attempting to get into one one whether it be actively pursuing women or self-improving in order to be attractive towards women in preparation for actively pursuing them.
A big reason why I put up that quote I had written a while back before is because I wanted to hear people's answers on this question that's been brooding in my mind since I initially wrote that post. Let's imagine this hypothetical where you end up with a woman of your dreams. She's 18 years old, a virgin, a practicing faithful Orthodox Christian (or imagine whatever denomination fits yours), and a 10/10 in looks on your scale, and she wants to marry you. You end up getting your fairytale happy ending that is the goal for many of the guys on this forum. Only this isn't the ending. I'm assuming as a faithful Christian, divorce won't be an option so marriage with this girl will be until death. This means eventually she will no longer be young and is going to be at the age where you think a woman has hit the wall. She will eventually be at the age where if you had initially met her at that age, you wouldn't haven't even considered dating her.
My point is that even if you highly prize youth, youth doesn't lasts for anyone and at most you'll get say 10 years to "enjoy" it and after that it's all downhill. She's going to spend most of her marriage being post-wall rather than pre-wall.
Let's also assume she completely satisfies your sexual needs and is sexually available at all times. Let's also say you are a high-T man that needs constant sex. Even if you were having sex 2-3 times a day, you're still going to spend most of your time with her NOT having sex. I'll re-quote myself on what I wrote on this point earlier: "I realize sex is a big part of the equation but assuming you do get a woman who is willing to satisfy all your needs in that area, what are you going to do with her the rest of the time she is around? You can only have so much sex per day. "
Given that's she going to eventually get old and lose her youth and beauty and that you aren't going to spend most of your time with her having sex, it seems marriage would only be worth it if you would actually enjoy her company outside of her beauty/youth and outside of the times you are being sexually intimate with her which I will re-iterate, is the majority of the time you spend with her. If a particular man finds interacting with women irritating and find talking to them to be as interesting as watching paint dry, them it seems like marriage mostly would be a negative and a bad value proposition which leads me back to my original point of how for such men, chasity and celibacy would be the best option.
I was looking back at some of the posts on this thread and it seems like for a lot of these guys, even if they could get the scenario I described above with the 18 year old 10/10 virgin they would eventually grow unhappy with the marriage after the initial gigantic ego-boost of landing an unicorn and from the hot (married and holy) sex they will be getting. Remember after this initial boost there's going to be decades afterwards where you won't be having sex constantly and where she's not going to have the beauty she had when you first married her.
The way a lot of the guys were writing about their interactions with women when I was looking back on the previous posts on this thread made it pretty clear that they really don't enjoy being around women. There was even a married guy that said "My wife knows where I stand and why, though I don’t dig into issues like I would with one of you unless she asks, and even then I don’t get too involved. If I need a friend with ears to listen I have a dog." So in other words, it seems like having a wife for certain types of men is actually less enjoyable than having a pet. Remember this is a guy that managed to get the goal of so many of the men here (marriage) and he doesn't actually seem to actually enjoy being around his wife. This the kind of scenario I'm guessing a lot of the guys will end up in if they do managed to reach their goal of marriage.
And keep in mind I'm describing the best-case scenario that at most has a 0.00000001% chance of happening for anyone here. If even in that case, you're going to end up eventually dissatisfied after the honeymoon period, then just imagine how most cases which won't be the best-case scenario is going to go. My question that I said I wanted to ask the guys here at the beginning of this mini-essay is this: is marriage really actually the best solution for a lot of the type of men we find on this forum given the points I have put forward? If the answer is no, then I would say there really needs to be more discussions on celibacy and now to navigate through life as a celibate Christian guy and there should be as much discussion on this as there is about family life and marriage especially on a forum like this guy where a lot of the guys just aren't temperately suited for marriage.
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This is where I'm at simply because this is my experience. My addiction to women, like my addiction to alcohol has been unhealrhy, expensive, and exhausting. In their "current state" I just cannot co-exist with women in a peaceful and productive manner. But to be fair, this has almost as much to do with me and my dysfunctional childhood and adolescence that was void of any healthy male role models, as it has to do with them. In addition, like @Blade Runner stated above I do not have the "value" that I think I have, and I am only attracted to top tier beautiful women who are mostly already locked down by Giga Chad's, and so I have therefore accepted my self-imposed fate. I had my "fun," I made my bed, and now I have to lie in it.
The good news is that I'm 4 years celibate and in many respects I'm happier, more productive, and more financially successful than I've ever been. But the Clown World irony of all this is that young, beautiful women are now starting to take notice of me again because my "vibe" has become healthy and positive. However, I attribute my good vibe to being completely free of women (and alcohol), so go figure? All I know is I will never go back to considering women in anything I do. The Lord is going to have to drop a perfect 10 right in my lap to knock me off the celibate train.
The answer is clearly no. For young men, sex is like oxygen: if you don't have it, it's all you can think about. But if you have all you need... suddenly it becomes a lot less interesting. When it comes to women, I think a lot of guys are like the proverbial dog chasing the car: they wouldn't know what do with it once they caught it. If you're the type of guy who spends a large amount of your time griping about the state of modern women, you're also probably not the kind of guy who would be very happy sharing your life with one. As any married man can tell you, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, and you will invariably end up sacrificing a lot to keep your wife happy. That's just how relationships work, even with a good woman. And lot of guys clearly have no interest in sacrifice or compromise, which is very apparent by the exorbitant and unrealistic standards they have for a potential wife.
A lot of women live by the phrase "If I cannot spend it then its not real" which used to be said as a joke but now woman actually say it verbatim in all seriousness.
There's nothing wrong with being celibate. Some of the most masculine men I've met and try to emulate were virgins before meeting their wives. Their wives are incredibly attractive, and were virgins as well.
The genuine Christians I meet do not sleep around, or even casually date. They start dating their future husband/wife and know that's who they're going to marry.
Another thread was discussing how people age, and I've noticed these are the type of people that age really well too.
The genuine Christians I meet do not sleep around, or even casually date. They start dating their future husband/wife and know that's who they're going to marry.
Another thread was discussing how people age, and I've noticed these are the type of people that age really well too.
I am going through this as well. This is the way to getting a good wife one day.
There is a few parts to this:
1) Firstly if a woman is very attractive and looks after herself she can typically still be attractive up to around age 40 albeit less attractive than previously. There is no reason why a woman is a 9 at age 18 cannot be a 7 at age 40 if she looks after herself. There is no reason to complain about having a woman who is physically a 7. Also if for example you are 38 years old and you marry an 18 year old who is a 9 when she turns 40 you will be 60 and your sex drive will likely be much lower at that age so her declining attractiveness matters less.
2) I pointed out earlier in the thread that historically men probably spent less time with their wives than they do today. Women and children tended to hang around with other women and children and men spent time with other men.
Between work, extended family and having a lot of children and male friends etc men probably had far less time with their wives. I think if as a man you have a busy and full life you are going to spend less time with your wife and so the time will be become appreciated rather than a chore even if your wife is boring (most women are extremely boring).
3) A lot of high status married men historically had mistresses on the side this is how they coped being married to one woman for their whole life. Its not really an option for a devout Christian man but its certainly something a lot of non-Christian men would consider.
What's the point of even getting married in the first place then? If a person is extremely boring I wouldn't choose to spend any time with that person unless it was strictly transactional/professional (selling or buying a product/service, having to make polite small talk for the purpose of something else, etc.) let alone wanting that person live in my house. For the type of guy that's always occupied with something and you have some sort of purpose AND who also finds women to be extremely dull and you are a Christian man, it seems like a no-brainer for such a man to go with the celibacy option.
If you are a secular guy and look through things with a utilitarian lens, then marriage would still be a bad deal under that world view It seems like the best scenario would just be whore mongering under such a view. I say mongering rather than dating/seducing cause looking through a utilitarian (which is not my own personal viewpoint, but I'm imagining myself in someone else's shoe) perspective, spending $80 for a night with a professional is actually a better use of your time if you are are a guy who has an extremely full life. For such a guy, time is way more valuable than money so dropping $80 in order to avoid the time you would spend having to find a woman, seduce her, and than plan the logistics of finishing the deal when you don't even enjoy the woman being around you is actually the more efficient use of time even if I wouldn't condone this behavior as a Christian. This kind of goes back to what I said before about how in any relationship with a woman, you spend more time not having sex then you do having sex. Is investing say 6 hours to convince a woman to have sex with you for 2 hours when those 6 hours are completely dreary and mind-numbing really a good use of your time even just looking at it from a secular, utilitarian perspective?
Now if you are very set on having children then I can see marriage still being something you should do. I think it's actually the case that in most cultures for most of history, a husband and wife weren't necessarily attracted to each other. However, these marriages stayed intact and had a very important function since both parties knew the primary purpose of their union was to create and nurture a family. These marriages don't end the same way a lot of modern western marriages do where one party just doesn't feel the spark anymore because the marriage wasn't based on the sparks in the first place. That said, I'm not sure how many of us who have been reared in western culture would able to handle such a marriage.
Rocky Balboa over here.
Think about every conversation that you have ever had with a woman and just think if I was having this conversation with a man how interesting would it be? 99% of the time the answer is not very interesting. But as men we overlook it when we the female is attractive.
And yes raising children is the primary purpose of marriage. If you are not raising children what is the point of getting married? It literally serves no purpose otherwise.