The China Thread

[Cooper]

Easier for the mainstream media to blame Russia, than tell you the truth.
I would expect someone who is on this forum to realise this.

Like I said, the continuing direct flights from Europe to Japan and South Korea (which are even further away than China) nullify this "Russia bad" excuse/explanation. The sad fact is, since 2020 most foreign tourists do not want to go mainland China anymore, even if it is visa free. They will however go further to Japan and Korea, even if the flight takes 2 to 4 hours more.

Do Japanese, Korean and western airlines also have to compete with Chinese/non-aligned airlines flying shorter and cheaper routes for the Europe to Tokyo/Seoul routes? I'm not sure that is the case.

So it may well be that fewer Europeans want to visit China because they are swayed by western propaganda, there is also less business being done between China and the West in terms of joint ventures as Chinese companies are taking over their domestic markets. The share of Chinese automakers of their domestic market has gone from less than 20% 10 years ago to 67% today and is still rising. Part of the reason that Japan's economy is reeling today is that they are getting crushed by Chinese brands in what was formerly their largest auto export market.

China - Flash report, Automotive sales volume, 2024 - MarkLines Automotive Industry Portal

China’s October vehicle production, sales volumes increase 3.6% y/y, 7% y/y, respectively. On November 11, the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers (CAAM) announced China’s vehicle production and sales results for October 2024. In October, with

www.marklines.com

So the notion that people aren't visiting China anymore because of "covid PTSD" makes no sense. It's not like Europe didn't go overboard with that either. In France, you weren't allowed to travel more than 10km from your home (the closest any western country ever got to a real 15min city control grid project), and you had to sign a pass in order to do your once a week food shopping trip. However the covid thing is a distant memory today, not a factor in tourist destinations.

It may well be that China's image has taken a hit in the West today, same as Russia. And much like with Russia, that bad PR is due to geopolitics and the average western tourist being pretty gullible.

 

[Caduceus]

Do Japanese, Korean and western airlines also have to compete with Chinese/non-aligned airlines flying shorter and cheaper routes for the Europe to Tokyo/Seoul routes? I'm not sure that is the case.

So it may well be that fewer Europeans want to visit China because they are swayed by western propaganda, there is also less business being done between China and the West in terms of joint ventures as Chinese companies are taking over their domestic markets. The share of Chinese automakers of their domestic market has gone from less than 20% 10 years ago to 67% today and is still rising. Part of the reason that Japan's economy is reeling today is that they are getting crushed by Chinese brands in what was formerly their largest auto export market.

China - Flash report, Automotive sales volume, 2024 - MarkLines Automotive Industry Portal

China’s October vehicle production, sales volumes increase 3.6% y/y, 7% y/y, respectively. On November 11, the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers (CAAM) announced China’s vehicle production and sales results for October 2024. In October, with

www.marklines.com

So the notion that people aren't visiting China anymore because of "covid PTSD" makes no sense. It's not like Europe didn't go overboard with that either. In France, you weren't allowed to travel more than 10km from your home (the closest any western country ever got to a real 15min city control grid project), and you had to sign a pass in order to do your once a week food shopping trip. However the covid thing is a distant memory today, not a factor in tourist destinations.

It may well be that China's image has taken a hit in the West today, same as Russia. And much like with Russia, that bad PR is due to geopolitics and the average western tourist being pretty gullible.

Yes, western airlines flying to Japan and Korea have to compete with Chinese and other 3rd country airlines that can fly shorter routes over Russia....yet somehow those western flight routes still are running despite much longer flight times and higher costs.

People don't want to visit China anymore because it's a very different place to before 2020 and almost impossible to use cash and credit cards like you could do before 2020. Western investors don't want to do business there anymore either. Added to this, official government travel advisories for tourists and business people warn against a host of complications that didn't exist before 2020. Examples see here:

Safety and security - China travel advice

FCDO travel advice for China. Includes safety and security, insurance, entry requirements and legal differences.

www.gov.uk

Safety and security - Hong Kong (SAR of China) travel advice

FCDO travel advice for Hong Kong. Includes safety and security, insurance, entry requirements and legal differences.

www.gov.uk

I was a regular visitor to China before 2020, and I enjoyed all my trips there, so I'm not a hater...but it just isn't fun to go there anymore, and most China expats and western business people have left the country for similar reasons.

Have you been to mainland China since 2020 ?

 

[expectation]

I'm assuming you speak Mandarin or Cantonese, (or both) so this makes things a lot easier for you.

The few foreign tourists who still visit mainland China have found installing the necessary Chinese smartphone payments apps a real problem because most of the interface and menus are in Chinese, and requires uploading both credit card, a passport, and other details. Also, very often once all the necessary details are entered it still doesn't work with foreign smartphones.

Since 2020, mainland China has made paying for basic goods and services more complicated for foreigners than any other country in the world.. even more difficult than North Korea, where you can still pay in cash, or change cash.


As for Hong Kong, many locals have moved abroad after various western countries offered Hong Kongers' a sort of political asylum and path to foreign citizenship.

The malls and shops are getting more empty every month, rich people are selling their homes, and rents are plummeting.
Even the "south china morning post" (which is a local Hong Kong newspaper) is admitting this.

re: Travel in China

There are guides out there that'll help but yeah I agree there's an investment of time/learning/prepare that a tourists would need to commit in order to enjoy China. Not much to say except that it weeds out tourists that are likely to disrespect the environment like backpackers in Bali and the tourists that I've interacted with are enthusiastic when it comes to China or domestic.

re: HK

Agreed - as I've said, the challenges are because HK'ers - are starting to have easier access to SZ & GBA (including Taobao being able to deliver to HK - Chinese Amazon) where their services + products better and cheaper for Chinese consumers while being stuck as a rent-seeker society. Retailers are unable to put in more money to improve their services or cut down costs to be more competitive due to high rent. It would be great if housing prices keeps going down to match with the rest of the Greater Bay Area and it looks like its slowly heading that way.

The amount of folks that have claimed BNO (British National Overseas) or migrate are not significant. Estimated at 11,737 households so if you assume 4 pax per household it would be ~47K. Its a drop in a bucket for a 7.5M city. In the previous wave, half of them moved back to Hong Kong from difficulty adjusting to the UK. These are not wealthy or educated households like most Chinese disporas and right now the economy in the UK/West is nothing like 90s/80s/70s for an average HK'er to thrive better than HK itself. The lady here I linked on twitter is an example of one.

btw - SCMP is a liberal newspaper so their headlines are skewed like this article where I reference the 11.7K household figure.

Hong Kong rents may plunge as ‘UK exodus drives vacancy rate to 18-year-high’

The bulk of the estimated 11,737 departing households will be heading to Britain to take advantage of a government scheme to facilitate citizenship for holders of the BN(O) passport, says Bloomberg report.

www.scmp.com

 

[expectation]

Adding to Cooper's point - the US State Department has placed China/Macau/Hong Kong on level 3 advisory. There's no reason to place China as level 3 except to be petty. They are really doing everything they can to discourage their citizens to go to China.

Other countries that are level 3 are Nicaragua, Niger, and Nigeria. These are countries that are undergoing terrorism and active civil war. For anyone that has visited or experience China/Hong Kong/Macau - does this make sense to be placed on the same level of advisory as those 3 countries?

China International Travel Information

China international travel information and Travel Advisory

travel.state.gov

 

[Caduceus]

Adding to Cooper's point - the US State Department has placed China/Macau/Hong Kong on level 3 advisory. There's no reason to place China as level 3 except to be petty. They are really doing everything they can to discourage their citizens to go to China.

Other countries that are level 3 are Nicaragua, Niger, and Nigeria. These are countries that are undergoing terrorism and active civil war. For anyone that has visited or experience China/Hong Kong/Macau - does this make sense to be placed on the same level of advisory as those 3 countries?

China International Travel Information

China international travel information and Travel Advisory

travel.state.gov

If you can be arrested in mainland China and Hong Kong for very silly reasons, and be prevented from leaving the country for even more silly reasons, then I would say yes.

Nicaragua, Niger, and Nigeria are on that list because of rampant criminality.. In China, you will be safe from criminality, but the authorities can detain you indefinitely without your embassy being able to help you, or instantly shut off you your means of paying for anything.

Like I said, I've been to both mainland China and Hong Kong many times before 2020 and enjoyed all my visits there, but I would not set foot in either of those places again now, because too much has changed for the worse.

 

[expectation]

re: Hong Kong Protestors Update

Here is an interesting video I've found in my feed. Here we have...

• Jimmy Lai, begging for additional support from US & UK in a news outlet
• Miles Guo giving orders to the HK Protestors during a livestream with Steven Bannon
• Miles Guo giving a sitrep with one of the protest organizers with promise of additional foreign support and funding
• Some examples of illegal activities from the rioters including
  • Built up barricades to block traffic
  • Intercepted and harassed private cars/passerby while masked
  • Rioters trespass on private residences and graffiti hotels
  • Vandalism of private property and MTR
• An expat berating a protestor
• HK'ers cheering on the arrest of the protestors at an MTR station.

backup link on TG:

Looks like sentencing has been conducted on the Hong Kong protesters over the last week. They have been sentenced from a range of 4-10 years.

The main mastermind, Jimmy Lai, is still undergoing trial at the moment and there is a lot of details including his communication with the White House being reported by Nury. Details including...

• White House sent confidential information directly to Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong
• Lai was present at a top level meeting in DC with former CIA Director Mike Pompeo and John Bolton
• Lai demanded that staff at his newspaper, Apple Daily, print nothing negative about Donald Trump
• Support from Taiwan and China hawks in the UK
• Lai had pressured his staff to draft a sanctions list for Washington to pin them for taking action against the HK Protestors

More details in the tweet.

 

[expectation]

On the other side of reality - here is Australian ABC reporting of the updates with the Hong Kong Protestors.

No mention of US subversion and the aggressive nature of the HK protestors which was obvious and evident in that video and detailed reporting from Nury. Just a lot of fear mongering and fluff that you get from the neoliberal dictionary from professional China hawks. Even included Tiananmen Square mention. (https://www.unz.com/lromanoff/tiana...an-american-instigated-1989-color-revolution/).

One week in Hong Kong's courts has unveiled the true cost of speaking out against Beijing

In a matter of days, two long-running Hong Kong court cases highlight just how much the semi-autonomous city is shrinking under Beijing's gaze.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Cooper]

re: Hong Kong Protestors Update

Here is an interesting video I've found in my feed. Here we have...

• Jimmy Lai, begging for additional support from US & UK in a news outlet
• Miles Guo giving orders to the HK Protestors during a livestream with Steven Bannon
• Miles Guo giving a sitrep with one of the protest organizers with promise of additional foreign support and funding
• Some examples of illegal activities from the rioters including
  • Built up barricades to block traffic
  • Intercepted and harassed private cars/passerby while masked
  • Rioters trespass on private residences and graffiti hotels
  • Vandalism of private property and MTR
• An expat berating a protestor
• HK'ers cheering on the arrest of the protestors at an MTR station.

backup link on TG:

Looks like sentencing has been conducted on the Hong Kong protesters over the last week. They have been sentenced from a range of 4-10 years.

The main mastermind, Jimmy Lai, is still undergoing trial at the moment and there is a lot of details including his communication with the White House being reported by Nury. Details including...

• White House sent confidential information directly to Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong
• Lai was present at a top level meeting in DC with former CIA Director Mike Pompeo and John Bolton
• Lai demanded that staff at his newspaper, Apple Daily, print nothing negative about Donald Trump
• Support from Taiwan and China hawks in the UK
• Lai had pressured his staff to draft a sanctions list for Washington to pin them for taking action against the HK Protestors

More details in the tweet.

Most of that color revolution ecosphere in HK is supported by the annual $1 billion plus US State Dept budget for Chinese operations.

Characters like this guy Leung Kwok-hung, who is on that list above of woke left activists sentenced are similar to some of the neoliberal people they fund in Russia and EE.

It's a pretty slick operation, fancy website designs:

The Committee for Freedom in Hong Kong Foundation

Committee for Freedom in Hong Kong Foundation fights for Hong Kong and its people as China continues its massive crackdown on the city.

www.thecfhk.org

Most non-astroturfed activist sites are usually older clunky designs.

 

[Caduceus]

re: Hong Kong Protestors Update

Here is an interesting video I've found in my feed. Here we have...

• Jimmy Lai, begging for additional support from US & UK in a news outlet
• Miles Guo giving orders to the HK Protestors during a livestream with Steven Bannon
• Miles Guo giving a sitrep with one of the protest organizers with promise of additional foreign support and funding
• Some examples of illegal activities from the rioters including
  • Built up barricades to block traffic
  • Intercepted and harassed private cars/passerby while masked
  • Rioters trespass on private residences and graffiti hotels
  • Vandalism of private property and MTR
• An expat berating a protestor
• HK'ers cheering on the arrest of the protestors at an MTR station.

backup link on TG:

Looks like sentencing has been conducted on the Hong Kong protesters over the last week. They have been sentenced from a range of 4-10 years.

The main mastermind, Jimmy Lai, is still undergoing trial at the moment and there is a lot of details including his communication with the White House being reported by Nury. Details including...

• White House sent confidential information directly to Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong
• Lai was present at a top level meeting in DC with former CIA Director Mike Pompeo and John Bolton
• Lai demanded that staff at his newspaper, Apple Daily, print nothing negative about Donald Trump
• Support from Taiwan and China hawks in the UK
• Lai had pressured his staff to draft a sanctions list for Washington to pin them for taking action against the HK Protestors

More details in the tweet.

I don't think anyone here has any doubts that the 2019 Hong Kong protestors were giving extensive funding and assistance from western powers with a hidden intention to destabilise mainland Chinese control. We all know this is the case, but thank you for providing details.
I do however believe that many of grievances of the Hong Kong people have are just and valid.

Most importantly, the pre 1997 Hong Kong population were guaranteed to retain their unique legal system for 50 years until the year 2047, and that just does not exist anymore, especially when HK residents are arrested and forcibly taken to prisons in mainland China, and later tried in HK under new laws that no one born in Hong Kong before 1997 finds fair and just.

Also, doing normal business under the new mainland Chinese communist laws becomes a very risky proposition, and many non Chinese companies have left Hong Kong for good, with many moving to Singapore. This is probably what the CCP wanted all along, but it has turned the global financial powerhouse Hong Kong into just another provincial back water city that very few non Chinese want to do business with anymore.

This whole situation could have been managed a lot better with more mutual compromises and less iron fists, but it's way too late now to fix.

 

[Cooper]

I don't think anyone here has any doubts that the 2019 Hong Kong protestors were giving extensive funding and assistance from western powers with a hidden intention to destabilise mainland Chinese control. We all know this is the case, but thank you for providing details.
I do however believe that many of grievances of the Hong Kong people have are just and valid.

Most importantly, the pre 1997 Hong Kong population were guaranteed to retain their unique legal system for 50 years until the year 2047, and that just does not exist anymore, especially when HK residents are arrested and forcibly taken to prisons in mainland China, and later tried in HK under new laws that no one born in Hong Kong before 1997 finds fair and just.

Also, doing normal business under the new mainland Chinese communist laws becomes a very risky proposition, and many non Chinese companies have left Hong Kong for good, with many moving to Singapore. This is probably what the CCP wanted all along, but it has turned the global financial powerhouse Hong Kong into just another provincial back water city that very few non Chinese want to do business with anymore.

This whole situation could have been managed a lot better with more mutual compromises and less iron fists, but it's way too late now to fix.

I am not sure about the business law situation in HK, but the under "unique legal system" that was in place before, HK was a major triad-infested and drug crime global hub.

The western legal system allows criminals to fester. There are no grooming gangs, MS-13, Hells Angels or Crips and Bloods in China.

When Mussolini took over Italy, he rounded up the gangsters and wiped out the Mafia in a few months. See also Bukele in El Salvador.

I would also add that given the ongoing arrests of thousands of people in the UK for posting memes and "misgendering" people on the net, the legacy legal system in HK offers no guarantee for the protection of individual freedoms...

 

[budoslavic]

90% of US military drones are Chinese-made.

 

[Maddox]

I had no idea how bad the drinking culture is over there. Everything is done to "save face."

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

I had no idea how bad the drinking culture is over there. Everything is done to "save face."

This is just Asia in general. Japan has this type of thing too. Asians are autistic bug people and they tend to create these types of "black company" situations sometimes.

That said, most if not all of the things described/shown in the video happen in every country. You can easily get footage of an American having a breakdown because his boss is jewing him on his salary. You can definitely get footage of American highschool seniors studying in the middle of the night too. This reeks of anti-China propaganda. Gets absolutely ridiculous at certain points. At one point, the video talks about teambuilding/networking events like they're the end of the world. "Oh, if you don't go then you don't get the promotion because you didn't form the connection". That's how it works everywhere, actually.

A LOT of people these days are really just obsessed with trying to convince themselves that China is North Korea or otherwise a horrible place to live in, and these types of videos appeal to that. Living in China is actually pretty great. Andrew Anglin talks about this. China has America beat by A LOT in infrastructure, public transportation, living standards, home ownership rates, and basically everything except military strength. Even Trump himself has talked about this.

 

[Kiwi]

Add South Korea to that list.

Soju - or "Baby Vodka" as the Russian's say - is the world's best selling spirit, from Korea. Definitely a work to live culture there, like the salary man ethic of Japan. When they let loose they tend to go all in with a big drinking culture which is quite fascinating when you consider how reserved some of these cultures seem to the west.

 

[Caduceus]

Living in China is actually pretty great. Andrew Anglin talks about this.

Before 2020....maybe.
After 2020 and even now....NO.

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

Before 2020....maybe.
After 2020 and even now....NO.

The Chinese government stopped it with the lockdown insanity pretty quickly when the people protested. And what do you mean "even now"? What's wrong with China right now? China doesn't even have homeless encampments or fent fiends. Their middle class can't stop growing. Chinese people are highly ethnocentric in a very positive way and have a clean and beautiful high-trust society.

 

[expectation]

don't come to China guys. It's a terrible place.

 

[FrancisK]

Heading to China next month, anyone interested in anything specific while I'm there? I'll post again closer to the trip....

 

[Cooper]

This is just Asia in general. Japan has this type of thing too. Asians are autistic bug people and they tend to create these types of "black company" situations sometimes.

That said, most if not all of the things described/shown in the video happen in every country. You can easily get footage of an American having a breakdown because his boss is jewing him on his salary. You can definitely get footage of American highschool seniors studying in the middle of the night too. This reeks of anti-China propaganda. Gets absolutely ridiculous at certain points. At one point, the video talks about teambuilding/networking events like they're the end of the world. "Oh, if you don't go then you don't get the promotion because you didn't form the connection". That's how it works everywhere, actually.

A LOT of people these days are really just obsessed with trying to convince themselves that China is North Korea or otherwise a horrible place to live in, and these types of videos appeal to that. Living in China is actually pretty great. Andrew Anglin talks about this. China has America beat by A LOT in infrastructure, public transportation, living standards, home ownership rates, and basically everything except military strength. Even Trump himself has talked about this.

Agreed.

This guy might well be part of the GAE $1.6 billion propaganda campaign against China, or at the very least is being boosted by that tide through the youtube algo, Meta and Google being arms of that program.

As noted above, these workaholic features are endemic to east Asia. The face-saving aspect and company drinking/afterhours drudgery is much worse in Japan, where the corporate culture and social pressures are stronger and far more established than in China.

There are a number of features of Chinese life that make it better than its neighbors though, like better access to housing, cheaper food, transport and a responsive government that works for them and ironically doesn't push cultural marxism on its people (while in SK, Taiwan and increasingly, Japan, they push feminism and LGBT degeneracy). As well, standard of living and purchasing power have been rising in China, and declining in Japan. China still has a large lower-middle class but they have been getting richer every decade while Japan, much like say Germany, the US or France, is going the other way.

That YT channel never mentions any of this, his whole content is full-bore anti-China dystopia. This is part of priming the public to the coming confrontation with China.

 

[Caduceus]

The Chinese government stopped it with the lockdown insanity pretty quickly when the people protested. And what do you mean "even now"? What's wrong with China right now? China doesn't even have homeless encampments or fent fiends. Their middle class can't stop growing. Chinese people are highly ethnocentric in a very positive way and have a clean and beautiful high-trust society.

I have posted my detailed reasons for China not being a good place to live after 2020 in this thread 1 page back in post numbers and 72, 77, 79 and 80, and on this page upthread in posts 82, 85, and 89.
Have a look at those posts.

I will add to this that back on the Roosh forum we had a member named "Suits" who had lived in China for almost a decade, and despite being a white western man, had actually learned to speak Mandarin while working there. Even he left China around 2022 despite having built a life and career there, because things had changed too much for the worse.