Lifter's Lounge

[Get2choppaaa]

If this is true it reveals something, most of the guys who **** are benching normal, respectable natty level weights in the 225-250 range, but the guys OVER 300 lbs aren't getting pussy. Why? Because most guys on gear are doing it to impress people, at first women, at which point they find out women don't like roided up men, so they end up doing it purely for ego to impress other men, which leads to arrogance -> homoeroticism -> body dysmorphia -> mental illness, which means no pussy.

The guy with 550 is probably a powerlifter (who may be on gear, maybe not) and probably isn't a narcisstic, image obsessed douchebag.


I've been working out for almost ten years and I only managed to bench press 225 for 5 clean reps ONCE in my life and that was after doing a dirty bulk. But the types of guys on places like BB.com or /fit/ would say 225 is weak and go on to say they bench 225 as a warmup and you're a weakling etc.

The toxicity of these men are self-evident, because apparently when you exceed 250-300 lbs or so you don't get pvssy anymore.

There is a lot of truth to what you're saying.

It's all about the circle you're in. I am a meathead so I'd consider 225 weak for anyone powerlifting/ athletics but for Gen pop I'd say it's good . I can hit 225 for 18-20 clean reps...and I have a bench around 375-400.

Someone who benches 550 is absolutely obsessed and spends a lot of time in the gym. Probably focused on eat sleep training and repeating. Think about Eddie Coan.

It's true that a properly structured program should result in any man being able to bench 225 for reps naturally. But very very few people spend the time to learn how to program it.

Most people do not take time to do it, nor form, nor are they willing to put on the weight in the process.

I personally think all men should be able to bench press 315, squat 405, and deadlift 495...but that does take tons of effort and nutrition/strategy...and few are interesting in commiting the time to it.

That said. It's less than 1 percent of males that can bench 225... Which is sad since a whole lot of men weigh a lot more than 225.

 

[Northern Pilgrim]

If this is true it reveals something, most of the guys who **** are benching normal, respectable natty level weights in the 225-250 range, but the guys OVER 300 lbs aren't getting pussy. Why? Because most guys on gear are doing it to impress people, at first women, at which point they find out women don't like roided up men, so they end up doing it purely for ego to impress other men, which leads to arrogance -> homoeroticism -> body dysmorphia -> mental illness, which means no pussy.

The guy with 550 is probably a powerlifter (who may be on gear, maybe not) and probably isn't a narcisstic, image obsessed douchebag.


I've been working out for almost ten years and I only managed to bench press 225 for 5 clean reps ONCE in my life and that was after doing a dirty bulk. But the types of guys on places like BB.com or /fit/ would say 225 is weak and go on to say they bench 225 as a warmup and you're a weakling etc.

The toxicity of these men are self-evident, because apparently when you exceed 250-300 lbs or so you don't get pvssy anymore.

The great thing about lifting is that the iron doesn't care. On the other hand, the problem with that is it doesn't take into account your genetics, bodyweight, height, etc.

It all depends on what your goals are, but I really like the standards put out by Rob Shoul (Mountain Athlete/Military Athlete/Mountain Tactical Institute). The relative strength assessment will give you a good idea of where you stack up against strong dudes who need to maintain a high level of fitness for their jobs.

 

[Batman]

There is a lot of truth to what you're saying.

It's all about the circle you're in. I am a meathead so I'd consider 225 weak for anyone powerlifting/ athletics but for Gen pop I'd say it's good . I can hit 225 for 18-20 clean reps...and I have a bench around 375-400.

Someone who benches 550 is absolutely obsessed and spends a lot of time in the gym. Probably focused on eat sleep training and repeating. Think about Eddie Coan.

It's true that a properly structured program should result in any man being able to bench 225 for reps naturally. But very very few people spend the time to learn how to program it.

Most people do not take time to do it, nor form, nor are they willing to put on the weight in the process.

I personally think all men should be able to bench press 315, squat 405, and deadlift 495...but that does take tons of effort and nutrition/strategy...and few are interesting in commiting the time to it.

That said. It's less than 1 percent of males that can bench 225... Which is sad since a whole lot of men weigh a lot more than 225.

I completely disagree that most men can bench 225 easily with enough training. Genetics plays a much larger role in this than anyone wants to admit. They always say it's the programming and if it's not the programming it's the diet, but I don't buy it. Obviously those are important but more so for the advanced stages than the beginner or intermediate stages where you can literally just randomly lift heavy weights, eat sufficient protein+carbs and you will automatically get strong and reach intermediate strength quickly if you have good genes.

For instance Stronglifts/SS claims people can increase all their weights by 5-15lbs a week for months on end (with deloading built in of course) but even as a beginner I reached my limits within just a few weeks and was continually frustrated and stumped by my slow progress.

I've done the same programs as others who, for instance, mention how they started out deadlifting ~200lbs and then got up to 300+ within the first few months then 400lbs by the first year. When I first started lifting I couldn't even deadlift 135 for 5 reps, and it took me 1 year just to get to 225lbs and to this day I've never once exceeded 340ish lbs for reps. I've tried every program imaginable and my diet is pretty solid. If that's not genetics idk what it is.

If you are an adult male and you’ve been lifting consistently for ten years, then yes, 225 for 5 is weak. Sorry.

Sure it is but consider that I couldn't even bench 115lbs when I lifted for the first time in my senior year of high school at 18. Then after months of benching 3x a week with a spotter and coach every time, and I capped out at 135 lbs.

Once I joined a good gym and started training seriously in my 20s, I was able increase my lifts, but it took a very long time and rigid adherence to good programming, diet, stress reduction, etc. The most respectable lift I ever did was 4 reps of 290lb ATG squats (with no belt) when I was in my mid 20s and that was only because I was doing a dirty bulk.

You're allowed to say I'm weak and I don't deny that, but when people go on to suggest it's entirely to poor programming has nothing to do with genes, that's effectively gaslighting. It's similar to telling a short and ugly dude who can't get pussy that it's all in his head instead of telling him he was given a shit hand and will have to work substantially harder.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I completely disagree that most men can bench 225 easily with enough training. Genetics plays a much larger role in this than anyone wants to admit. They always say it's the programming and if it's not the programming it's the diet, but I don't buy it. Obviously those are important but more so for the advanced stages than the beginner or intermediate stages where you can literally just randomly lift heavy weights, eat sufficient protein+carbs and you will get reach intermediate strength quickly if you have good genes.

For instance Stronglifts/SS claims people can increase all their weights by 5lbs a week for weeks or months on end (with deloading built in of course) but even as a beginner I reached my limits extremely quickly and was continually frustrated and stumped by my slow progress.

I've done the same programs as others who, for instance, mention how they started out deadlifting ~200lbs and then got up to 300+ within the first few months then 400lbs by the first year. When I first started lifting I couldn't even deadlift 135 for 5 reps, and it took me 1 year just to get to 225lbs and to this day I've never once exceeded 340ish lbs for reps. I've tried every program imaginable and my diet is pretty solid. If that's not genetics idk what it is.


Sure it is but consider that I couldn't even bench 115lbs when I started.

Even before I started training seriously in my 20s for those ten years, when I was 18 (which is the age where men peak in strength for men) and I capped out at 135 lbs despite benching 3x a week.

You're allowed to say I'm weak and I don't deny that, but when people suggest it's due to poor programming but not genes, it's effectively gaslighting.

Starting strength guys would say you didn't eat enough.... and you need a Gallon of milk a day.

I'm sorry but I bet you're diet and routine wasnt actually optimized for strength. It's probably a a combination of strength, cardio, and all that. My point was that just about anyone, with the proper protocol can bench 225, they just don't prioritize it.

In the Marines... I wasn't optimized for strength. I was lean and could run for days...but I couldn't deadlift 405 and I weighted 175 lbs. Now I'm 50lbs+ heavier and don't run 20 miles a week ... So I'm not using competing energy systems.

 

[Batman]

Starting strength guys would say you didn't eat enough.... and you need a Gallon of milk a day.

I'm sorry but I bet you're diet and routine wasnt actually optimized for strength. It's probably a a combination of strength, cardio, and all that. My point was that just about anyone, with the proper protocol can bench 225, they just don't prioritize it.

In the Marines... I wasn't optimized for strength. I was lean and could run for days...but I couldn't deadlift 405 and I weighted 175 lbs. Now I'm 50lbs+ heavier and don't run 20 miles a week ... So I'm not using competing energy systems.

Yeah that's always the claim, it's your diet. I literally did the SS/Stronglifts + GOMAD meme and what a joke of a suggestion that was. Of course went on to try all sorts of diet optimization and new programming, most successful was the Madcow/Texas Method. I was gaining weight and eating tons of protein and enough carbs what else is left? It's not that complicated and besides, diet isn't going to hold you back THAT much (unless it's just flat out horrible) in the beginning.

This vestige of Puritan-work-ethic remains and people simply refuse to accept that genes rule our life.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Yeah that's always the claim, it's your diet. I literally did do GOMAD and what a joke of a suggestion that was. Of course went on to try all sorts of diet optimization. I was gaining weight and eating tons of protein and enough carbs what else is left? Diet isn't going to hold you back THAT much especially in the beginning.

This vestige of Puritan-work-ethic remains and people simply refuse to accept that genes rule our life.

I am not disagreeing that the rate of strength accumulation is very heavily dependent on genetic aptitude and muscle fiber type and bone joint structure.

But diet and sleep are actually significantly more important than programing...and often when people stall you have look at other methods for strength gain. That's why Conjugate works so well.

Id be curious to know your height and weight during those periods.

 

[Batman]

Diet, sleep, stress reduction, are surely as important as the lifts but as I said, for a beginner or probably even intermediate level they're not going to limit you significantly as long as they're "good enough". Those things surely matter more for the folks who start to reach diminishing returns after real gains.

I am 6' and my weight was around 180lbs when I started. I did a dirty bulk to 220lbs but my strength was quite poor relative to that weight so I focused on being more lean. Now I'm around 170lbs and much leaner but my 5RM are still pretty shit, DL is 2x, bench 1.25x, squat 1.5x, OHP .85x. I don't even care about strength anymore. I only workout now based on what makes me feel best, HIIT sprints at the track or long high elevation hikes being my favorite way to exercise. I never once enjoyed lifting weights I always felt like shit after.

 

[Blade Runner]

The last stage of my progression or final maintenance was mid 30s and I was in good shape, and still am, but energy started tailing off approaching 40s. I still have way less body fat and the training I did for 20 years basically means I have a long head start on everyone. I don't know if you guys ever read natty or not but basically he did everything and tried everything and I transitioned into exactly what he says, which is at later ages just make sure you maintain and spend minimal time in the gym, to be honest. It's good to do for both body and psychology, but it's overdone by most people, drastically. Once you're past mid 30s you're just waiting to crush your joints if you keep trying to load and overload. I'm lean and have that kind of body type that is aesthetic and probably desired by most but if I don't wear custom fit stuff, no one knows, they'll just think I'm a runner. That's where big and chubby can be better, but again, do women really care? No, only in clown world. Unless you're really out of shape.

 

[SeekingTruth]

The last stage of my progression or final maintenance was mid 30s and I was in good shape, and still am, but energy started tailing off approaching 40s. I still have way less body fat and the training I did for 20 years basically means I have a long head start on everyone. I don't know if you guys ever read natty or not but basically he did everything and tried everything and I transitioned into exactly what he says, which is at later ages just make sure you maintain and spend minimal time in the gym, to be honest. It's good to do for both body and psychology, but it's overdone by most people, drastically. Once you're past mid 30s you're just waiting to crush your joints if you keep trying to load and overload. I'm lean and have that kind of body type that is aesthetic and probably desired by most but if I don't wear custom fit stuff, no one knows, they'll just think I'm a runner. That's where big and chubby can be better, but again, do women really care? No, only in clown world. Unless you're really out of shape.

I got a SLAP tear in my shoulder last year. Definitely from over training as I aged so you're spot on. Had to go to PT but things will never be the same without surgery. I'm not convinced it's necessary to stay healthy so I've resorted to decreasing weight by about 50% on overhead lifts which stinks. But I've found a way to still fatigue on heavy lifts for most things below the shoulders. It's all about maintenance, movement and mind from here on out.

 

[Rainy]

I am mixed on how much weight someone should be able to push. And I say that as someone who got my first gym membership at 16 and was a strength & conditioning coach for years.

I would agree there's certain benchmarks someone should hit if they train consistently for years on bench, squat, deadlift and pullups.

But that can often work against what I'd refer to as prime health. And to me that falls more into the conversation of what can you handle in a SHTF scenario. I think everyone should be able to lace up their shoes and run 3-5 miles at any given time. Or ruck 10-15 miles on hilly terrain carrying 50 lbs. I've always felt best when running regularly and lifting regularly.

There's also the general aspect of what is the reward of going heavy when you get older vs the injury risk. And when you get 40's and beyond your VO2 max is arguably a superior indicator of health and longevity. I'm biased because I played the sport but IMO basketball players are generally the best athletes. Strong, muscular but also cut and phenomenal endurance.

 

[DanielH]

I've got a tall skinny friend who could bench 225 at 160 lbs. Clearly has poor weightlifting genetics from looking at him. Barring joint issues any man should be able to bench 225. Like @Get2choppaaa said, if you can't do it, fix your diet and your routine, barring that, make sure you're not doing extreme amounts of cardio, especially not close to a lifting session.

 

[scary_robot_music]

I've got a tall skinny friend who could bench 225 at 160 lbs. Clearly has poor weightlifting genetics from looking at him. Barring joint issues any man should be able to bench 225. Like @Get2choppaaa said, if you can't do it, fix your diet and your routine, barring that, make sure you're not doing extreme amounts of cardio, especially not close to a lifting session.

I essentially agree with this, in the sense that a man should probably be strong enough to bench 225. But I also think you probably shouldn't test your one rep max on anything unless you're a serious powerlifter. If you're not a powerlifter and you're natty the odds of your max impressing anyone are far less than the odds of hurting yourself testing your one rep max. Especially at my age (over 50) and with some shoulder and knee problems in my past.

I focus more on how many pull-ups or push-ups I can do with good form, for example, and on keeping my body weight below a certain amount.

https://nattyornot.com/why-testing-...-a-natural-is-one-of-the-dumbest-things-ever/

 

[DanielH]

I essentially agree with this, in the sense that a man should probably be strong enough to bench 225. But I also think you probably shouldn't test your one rep max on anything unless you're a serious powerlifter. If you're not a powerlifter and you're natty the odds of your max impressing anyone are far less than the odds of hurting yourself testing your one rep max. Especially at my age (over 50) and with some shoulder and knee problems in my past.

I focus more on how many pull-ups or push-ups I can do with good form, for example, and on keeping my body weight below a certain amount.

https://nattyornot.com/why-testing-...-a-natural-is-one-of-the-dumbest-things-ever/

I agree 1 rep maxes are not a good idea except for powerlifters, however, you can use those charts shared on page 1 to accurately estimate your 1 rep max without actually doing it.

I have shoulder issues as well so I'm also not using barbells at all at the moment. I never 1 rep maxed bench, but I did do 225 for maybe 4 reps. I also weighed about 210 at the time so not that impressive.

Edit: Also, anyone who comes here and says bodybuilding or powerlifting or whatever is stupid can go find another thread. That's like on the old RVF forum when people would go to the video game thread and rant about how bad video games are bad for you, but this is worse because lifting is definitely good for you, especially as a man. Steroids are stupid, but lifting in general is a must for any serious man unless you're pursuing monasticism.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I agree 1 rep maxes are not a good idea except for powerlifters, however, you can use those charts shared on page 1 to accurately estimate your 1 rep max without actually doing it.

I have shoulder issues as well so I'm also not using barbells at all at the moment. I never 1 rep maxed bench, but I did do 225 for maybe 4 reps. I also weighed about 210 at the time so not that impressive.

Edit: Also, anyone who comes here and says bodybuilding or powerlifting or whatever is stupid can go find another thread. That's like on the old RVF forum when people would go to the video game thread and rant about how bad video games are bad for you, but this is worse because lifting is definitely good for you, especially as a man. Steroids are stupid, but lifting in general is a must for any serious man unless you're pursuing monasticism.

For shoulder health....You should buy a set of bands, hang 25 or 30 lb kettle bells on it and do bench that way. The oscillating resistance will strengthen your shoulder and actually build tons of muscle.

Do this every 3rd work out or as assistance work after other presses.

Also regarding 1rm.... Been my experience most people get hurt with heavy 2s 3s or 5s vs a 1rm. Most just fail the 1rm rep.

I like to put 135 on the bar and 2x55lb kettlebells and do long hikes with 6 to 8 reps in a set.

Give this a try... With just the bar and 25 or 35 lbs. I promise it will smoke you in a good way.

 

[scary_robot_music]

I agree 1 rep maxes are not a good idea except for powerlifters, however, you can use those charts shared on page 1 to accurately estimate your 1 rep max without actually doing it.

I have shoulder issues as well so I'm also not using barbells at all at the moment. I never 1 rep maxed bench, but I did do 225 for maybe 4 reps. I also weighed about 210 at the time so not that impressive.

Edit: Also, anyone who comes here and says bodybuilding or powerlifting or whatever is stupid can go find another thread. That's like on the old RVF forum when people would go to the video game thread and rant about how bad video games are bad for you, but this is worse because lifting is definitely good for you, especially as a man. Steroids are stupid, but lifting in general is a must for any serious man unless you're pursuing monasticism.

Yes, I find dumbbells for chest presses far better than barbells. Easier on the shoulders and, more importantly, barbell bench presses are the best way to get yourself killed lifting weights. When I was younger and dumber I used to do them by myself in my company gym late at night. I shudder to think how dangerous that was. It was in a squat rack with those safety rails so that when I reached failure I could rest the bar on the rails and shimmy out from under it, but still, I cringe now when I think of it, what could have happened if something had gone wrong.

I'd argue that bodybuilding, powerlifting, and weight training for general fitness are almost entirely different things. I don't think the first two are inherently bad, but they're both more dangerous and less practical than training for general fitness. I wouldn't argue against engaging in them, but if someone wanted to argue they're bad I wouldn't kick him out either.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Yes, I find dumbbells for chest presses far better than barbells. Easier on the shoulders and, more importantly, barbell bench presses are the best way to get yourself killed lifting weights. When I was younger and dumber I used to do them by myself in my company gym late at night. I shudder to think how dangerous that was. It was in a squat rack with those safety rails so that when I reached failure I could rest the bar on the rails and shimmy out from under it, but still, I cringe now when I think of it, what could have happened if something had gone wrong.

I'd argue that bodybuilding, powerlifting, and weight training for general fitness are almost entirely different things. I don't think the first two are inherently bad, but they're both more dangerous and less practical than training for general fitness. I wouldn't argue against engaging in them, but if someone wanted to argue they're bad I wouldn't kick him out either.

I'm going to agree that at the elite level they are differnt...but there are still many synergies... Sometimes it's semantics thought:

A good Powerlifter has to have a balance of maximal strength in the big 3 lifts (SPP or Sport Specific Preparedness ) hypertrophy for both strength and injury prevention, AND good GPP (General Physical Preparedness).

A good body builder is going to be decently strong too. Many bodybuilders got their background in powerlifting (Branch Warren, Ronnie Coleman). Most bodybuilders are not doing doubles or tripples... But some still do.

Surprisingly you can get very jacked with the correct GPP work. If you get a sled and put 4 plates on it and pull it for 10 laps of 60 yards front and back. Your hamstring, calves, glutes and calves will blow up. This has been more prominent in crossfit recently.... But Louie Simmons and Westside Barbell had been advocating pulling sleds for 30 years.

They're more related than not related.

 

[scary_robot_music]

It depends how you look at it. Certainly the training in body building, power lifting, and weight training for fitness is similar in many ways. The main reason I think of them as very different is the goal of each: aesthetics, one rep maxes, and health, respectively. I think it's obvious that to be an elite athlete you have to be willing to sacrifice your health for performance (this applies to pretty much all sports, not just body building and power lifting). You can win multiple body building and power lifting competitions and develop health problems that torment you the rest of your life due the excessive training and drug use involved, but you'd still have been successful at the sport. On the other hand, if you develop serious health problems from weight training for general fitness, you're obviously doing it wrong and not successful. Another way to look at it is that someone who's fit from weight training should look good and be stronger than most of the general general population, but he won't look like an elite body builder or be anywhere near as strong as a serious power lifter.

You see women sometimes object to the idea of weight training because they "don't want to look like a body builder." This is like giving up driving your Toyota Camry because you're afraid you'll somehow turn into a Formula One driver.

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

If you are an adult male and you’ve been lifting consistently for ten years, then yes, 225 for 5 is weak. Sorry.

Bench press is the most overrated lift. How often are you on your back pushing something off of you in nature and not using your hips/legs? Almost never. Bench press is largely an ego lift. How many guys can bench like you claim but when shtf can't run and jump into a fox hole to dodge incoming? How many have achillies that would rip in two the first time they really have to use them?

Bench matters not at all, most lifting matters not at all, if you are not doing plyometrics, jump training, sprinting, ect. If you only lift and don't do these functional exercises, it is a waste of time and you are training your body to be fragile.

 

[scary_robot_music]

Bench press is the most overrated lift. How often are you on your back pushing something off of you in nature and not using your hips/legs? Almost never. Bench press is largely an ego lift. How many guys can bench like you claim but when shtf can't run and jump into a fox hole to dodge incoming? How many have achillies that would rip in two the first time they really have to use them?

Bench matters not at all, most lifting matters not at all, if you are not doing plyometrics, jump training, sprinting, ect. If you only lift and don't do these functional exercises, it is a waste of time and you are training your body to be fragile.

Interesting point. It's my understanding that up until 100 years or so ago the overhead press was considered the true measure of a man's strength. Both it and the dead lift do seem like far more practical lifts than bench.

Of course in the real world you'll almost never be lifting an object designed to be lifted easily like a barbell is.

 

[It_Is_My_Time]

Interesting point. It's my understanding that up until 100 years or so ago the overhead press was considered the true measure of a man's strength. Both it and the dead lift do seem like far more practical lifts than bench.

Of course in the real world you'll almost never be lifting an object designed to be lifted easily like a barbell is.

Here to sum up the "importance" of weight lifting in the real world.

One summer I did manual labor during college. I worked with a guy my age and I was very thin and tall growing up, so I feared I wouldn't be able to keep up. Worse off, the previous year his assistant for the summer was a guy that played offensive line in college and I once saw bench press 430 pounds for 6 reps.

So, after the first week I mentioned this to my boss, about if I was dragging him down, not keeping up, being not nearly as strong as the other guy. And he said to me that I was actually better help. That I had way more energy, that I wasn't far behind him in strength, but endurance strength was way more important and I had that in droves v. him, and that in practical uses, most weight room strength is completely meaningless. I would say the deadlift would be a good real world lift, but most everything else is just weight room strength.

There are so many components to real world strength and the weight room is such a small part of it. In fact, I almost wonder if the weight room doesn't do more to destroy men than help them. Wasted energy on looking good or pushing artificial (compared to the real world) strength, and either creating egos or crushing spirits, based on nonsense.

It almost seems like the weight room goes hand in hand with sportsball, fake masculinity to replace real masculinity. My advice is to get outside, and run sprints, do jumping drills, pull ups, push ups, and the weight room is last, if at all. And I have been training 30 years now.

I got my own home gym and workout in a way that benefits me. Once in a while I am in the globogym and there are guys benching 315, or whatever, acting tough and cool, and I am over there doing stretches, and jumping drills and things they could never do, despite being 15 to 20 years older than them. By the time they are my age, if they don't change their ways, they will be either injured or quit and fat and out of shape.