Lifter's Lounge

[staddlelateen]

In July I tore the labrum in my right shoulder, and shortly thereafter got tendonitis in the left shoulder. I couldn't curl, overhead press, or dumbbell bench 10 lbs. In September I started rehab, and in October I started going to the gym regularly. Until the end of January I was aiming for 8 reps on each set but going to failure (so if I could do 9, I did 9), 3 sets per workout, increasing weight when I could accomplish that. I always gave myself at least 48 hours rest between doing the same muscle group again. I've been tracking my workouts, and I'd like to share my progress as a fairly novice lifter in the newbie gains stage as a bit of inspiration. I'm by no means strong, it's just that I wasn't aware how rapidly you could gain strength naturally. Also I'm not showing every workout here, each datapoint is just the first time I did that weight.

View attachment 5135
Chest progress. I switched to cable crossovers in December as my gym didn't have dumbbells over 45 lbs or a barbell, so I had to switch to a different workout to still go for my 8 rep target. I've maintained linear progress though at the end of January I started doing sets of 5 or 6 (might go back to 8 soon). As a disclaimer, the cable crossovers are done with a cable machine that has a 2:1 mechanical advantage, so 200 pounds is really me pushing 100lbs of force. I wonder how that translates to a bench press, as this is done standing and therefore unstable vice a flat bench press.

View attachment 5137
Triceps press-downs. This one starts at a normal weight as opposed to basically zero, as the labrum tear actually doesn't affect the triceps press down as much. My biceps progress started at basically zero, however, as that has a lot to do with the shoulder.

So yeah, I don't know why everyone wouldn't go to the gym and realize their newbie gains. Supposedly newbie gains last for 6-12 months. Go and lift. This wasn't a huge effort on my part. Just made sure to go, track progress, and eat enough protein. I'm thankful for my injuries as it got me into the gym.

Are you doing two hand cable crossovers? I find doing one hand cable crossovers give a better result. Athlean-x (who I also like) has a great video on why that’s the case. Long story short, it gives a better range of motion. Also, how are you setting up your cable crossover? Is it shoulder level, high, or low? I do a giants set where I will do each variation and have 1 min rest in between. It will give you a fuller chest.

I switched my diet a little. Still only eat within a 2-3 hr window each night. All workouts are 15+ hrs fasted and I’m so used to that the idea of eating pre workout makes me nauseous.

But while not full carnivore I break my fast with some combo of 1-1.5 lbs chuck steak, 1.3 lbs+ of ground beef and 5-6 eggs. Sometimes just the ground beef with 5 eggs on top and hot sauce. All is bought from Costco. This is my major change. No matter how hungry I am I break my fast with 100-120g protein of beef/eggs every day. It’s always beef, then eggs to supplement. Immediately fills me up and eliminates cravings.

After that I either have protein ice cream which is 2 scoops protein powder, 2 cups fairlife milk and keto sugar free pudding mix. Runs about 60g protein. Or I’ll just mix the pudding mix with 2 cups milk and it’s a large bowl with little calories. Also rotate the Greek yogurt with protein powder combo. About 200g protein per day.

Zero veggies. Zero fruit.

But that’s it for about a month now. Weights I’ve focused on the 5-8 rep range and doing legs every 4-5 days. Never do the same workout more than twice in a row. Constantly changing the lifts, angles and order but sticking heavy. Also slow jogging on trails 2x per week. My body is changing rapidly. Putting on muscle, numbers in the gym going up across the board while dropping fat and definition is coming out. Really tho I feel stronger than I have in 5+ years but feeling leaner and more athletic too.

Only downside is I can’t sleep. Mental clarity also greatly improved and can’t turn my brain off. Even using magnesium, zinc and melatonin isn’t helping.

You shouldn’t be changing your lifts that much. This idea of “shocking the muscle” giving you gains is not true. You should create a program and stick with it for at least 6 months. That will give you the most optimal muscle progression. And you shouldn’t be working out fasted. There’s literally no benefit to it. It will just make you unnecessarily fatigued during your lifting session.

 

[staddlelateen]

Height, weight, bench, deadlift, barbell squat?

Underweight bodybuilders frequently have problems sleeping.

Yes, this would be my assessment as well. Working out in a fasted state is putting immense and unnecessary stress on the body, causing it to release adrenaline and cortisol, which will prevent you from sleeping. The most important factor for muscle growth is sleep, too, so there’s little purpose to working out if you’re not sleeping.

 

[staddlelateen]

I'm 5'10". When I started lifting in 2012, I was 130lbs. I'm built exactly like a marathon runner. I have very long legs, short torso, and proportionally sized arms. I have thin wrists and ankles (small bone structure). In short, I have exactly 0 genetic gifts for lifting weights. In fact, if you were to design someone with the worst body for lifting weights, it would be me. The first time that I squatted I was barely able to squat the empty 45lbs bar for 5 reps.

I followed Starting Strength for 5 years. I increased my body weight to 170, and at that weight, I was able to deadlift 400 lbs, squat 375lbs, bench 215lb, and OHP 155. I could have kept going, too, and made more gains, but I became bored with doing the same 5 lifts over and over again, so I started to focus on other things. The formula for getting strong is actually extremely simple, and people tend to overcomplicate it for various reasons.

 

[Rainy]

Height, weight, bench, deadlift, barbell squat?

Underweight bodybuilders frequently have problems sleeping.

I'm not a bodybuilder and have been clear on that. 6' and 185 lbs.

Do you caffeinate or take any other stimulants?

Coffee but that hasn't been an issue until 2-3 weeks ago.

Just an impression based exclusively on what you wrote, but you might be overdoing it with all of this. "Can't turn my brain off" and not being able to sleep sounds like obsessive thoughts. What are you trying to accomplish with all of this? If it's just being fit and healthy and looking good, you could dial it back and relax a little more. You might be better off.

This is a misunderstanding based on not seeing my history of posting on this subject. I've been eating clean and exercising for years. It's not some obsession or huge time commitment. There is no increase here in time spent exercising. The sleep issue is 2-3 weeks old.

Inability to sleep is a huge red flag. Sleep is of crucial importance for both your health and for your testosterone production.

I'd recommend a balanced diet with 3 meals a day. Whole foods (no goyslop), 0.8 grams of protein per 1 lbs of bodyweight (200g of protein seems excessive unless you weigh well over 200lbs), sufficient carbs, fats and vegetables, fruits in moderation.

Appreciate your thoughts, but no. I have been intermittent fasting for a little over two years now and feel great. Your general diet recommendation doesn't work for me. I get a lot of steps in as well and make a point of doing a few 10-20 min walks throughout the day.

Yes, this would be my assessment as well. Working out in a fasted state is putting immense and unnecessary stress on the body, causing it to release adrenaline and cortisol, which will prevent you from sleeping. The most important factor for muscle growth is sleep, too, so there’s little purpose to working out if you’re not sleeping.

Again, I have been lifting in a fasted state for over two years now. Zero issues.

Appreciate the concerns here from everyone, but there appears to be a misunderstanding. My intermittent fasting and overall exercise routine has been a normal part of my life for awhile now- it might be a mistake on my part not explaining that better as I had back on RVF. The sleep might be diet related, could be business related as well as I've had some pressure there. It is something I am aware of but it's also a very recent issue. It is more of taking longer to fall asleep and up earlier. It is not literally, no sleep.

Enjoy your weekend fellas.

 

[Hannibal]

Caffeine is quite a bit more potent on the meat diet.

Wouldn't hurt to drink a small cup a day for a few days to see how you react.

 

[scary_robot_music]

I don’t know about sleep, but you shouldn’t be changing your lifts that much. This idea of “shocking the muscle” is not true. You should create a program and stick with it for at least 6 months. That will give you the most optimal muscle progression. And you shouldn’t be working out fasted. There’s literally no benefit to it. It will just make you unnecessarily fatigued during your lifting session.

I agree with not changing your workout as often

I'm not a bodybuilder and have been clear on that. 6' and 185 lbs.


Coffee but that hasn't been an issue until 2-3 weeks ago.


This is a misunderstanding based on not seeing my history of posting on this subject. I've been eating clean and exercising for years. It's not some obsession or huge time commitment. There is no increase here in time spent exercising. The sleep issue is 2-3 weeks old.



Appreciate your thoughts, but no. I have been intermittent fasting for a little over two years now and feel great. Your general diet recommendation doesn't work for me. I get a lot of steps in as well and make a point of doing a few 10-20 min walks throughout the day.


Again, I have been lifting in a fasted state for over two years now. Zero issues.

Appreciate the concerns here from everyone, but there appears to be a misunderstanding. My intermittent fasting and overall exercise routine has been a normal part of my life for awhile now- it might be a mistake on my part not explaining that better as I had back on RVF. The sleep might be diet related, could be business related as well as I've had some pressure there. It is something I am aware of but it's also a very recent issue. It is more of taking longer to fall asleep and up earlier. It is not literally, no sleep.

Enjoy your weekend fellas.

One thing that I left out of my response is that I wonder if you're not getting enough carbs or you're suffering from malnutrition in some other way. I think you said that you'd recently started this diet and it has very little variety. You basically eat the same thing every day, or at least that's how it sounded. That was the part that sounded obsessive to me, not intermittent fasting and lifting weights. Both of those are good, and I'm on your side about working out in a fasted state. I've been doing it for so long that working out on anything but any empty stomach sounds terrible.

Anyway, if I'm right about your diet, maybe have some wild caught salmon and a little broccoli or something like that once in a while. If you really want to go crazy, maybe throw in a little quinoa from time to time. You might end up sleeping better, who knows.

 

[Rainy]

Sorry, but the idea altering your workout on a regular basis is a negative isn’t true. I’ve done it off and on for 20 years with very good results and back when I had clients it worked well for them depending on goals and program rotation.

Of course, there is strategic variety and rotation vs just entirely winging it and turning your workouts on their head.

At its most basic if doing a PPL plan as an example, on push day there is no negative to prioritizing chest on one workout and then shoulders on the next push workout, or rotating from a flat to incline priority.

Same as leg day, can be quad focused one week and hamstring focused the next, or rotate heavy squats with BG split squats as a staple.

This approach is common and yields results. But if you did it for 8-12 weeks it then makes sense to rotate back to a more consistent and progressive program. Or not. That depends on other variables as well.

 

[Labienus]

I alter my workout when I start hitting plateaus. I don't think it's necessary to do so beforehand.

 

[staddlelateen]

Sorry, but the idea altering your workout on a regular basis is a negative isn’t true. I’ve done it off and on for 20 years with very good results and back when I had clients it worked well for them depending on goals and program rotation.

Of course, there is strategic variety and rotation vs just entirely winging it and turning your workouts on their head.

At its most basic if doing a PPL plan as an example, on push day there is no negative to prioritizing chest on one workout and then shoulders on the next push workout, or rotating from a flat to incline priority.

Same as leg day, can be quad focused one week and hamstring focused the next, or rotate heavy squats with BG split squats as a staple.

This approach is common and yields results. But if you did it for 8-12 weeks it then makes sense to rotate back to a more consistent and progressive program. Or not. That depends on other variables as well.

I guess it depends how advanced you are. If you have been doing it for 20 years, you certainly have a good idea of what works for you. On the topic generally, this guy more or less mirrors my thoughts

I alter my workout when I start hitting plateaus. I don't think it's necessary to do so beforehand.

One way to combat plateaus is to take smaller weight jumps. For example, when I was doing the starting strength program and I was starting to plateau on the bench press, I would only take a 0.5lb weight jump (fractional plates are great for this).

Another approach is to modify the exercise by adding bands, or by putting an accessory exercise on an off day (i.e. program in tempo bench). Of course, these options are probably only useful if you are advanced or competing.

Right now, I'll change the exercise type when it isn't working for me. For example, I changed cable pullovers to dumbbell pullovers because I felt that I was using too much triceps on the cable pullovers. Otherwise, I'll change the exercise when I buy new equipment or if I'm injured. Another thing I will do is vary my rep ranges to maximize time under tension. Athlean X had a good video on not being "married" to 3 sets for 12 reps when doing hypertrophy training.

Other than those small changes, I've been doing the same hypertrophy program for 7 months now, and I'm still making progress.

 

[Hannibal]

I was thinking about switching gears to a more stamina high rep calisthenic based approach.

Has anyone had any good luck with things like high rep burpees, prisoner style workouts etc? Just looking to try something different, I have never worked cardio on purpose, usually got plenty from my job. My resting heartrate is higher than I'd like it to be, back when I loaded pallets in a freezer by hand it was 40ish beats per minute and I'd move at least 20 miles a shift.

Watched some iron wolf videos and that busy dad guy and I am somewhat intrigued. Closest thing I have done was a gymnastic routine about 10 years ago. The thing that interested me the most was that the busy dad did powerlifting of some form or another and claims that he has lost no strength or size while doing burpees as his only form of training for years. A claim that many attest to is that the high intensity cardio doesn't appear to burn up muscle. I assume that actually BUILDING any strength would be hampered as well.

I'll still be throwing sandbags into the mix, there's no reason not to get better at picking up heavy things. I"m currently working with a 150 lb one for reps to get used to the form (shouldering feels weird to me), but the 200 lber is in reach.

 

[DanielH]

I was thinking about switching gears to a more stamina high rep calisthenic based approach.

Has anyone had any good luck with things like high rep burpees, prisoner style workouts etc? Just looking to try something different, I have never worked cardio on purpose, usually got plenty from my job. My resting heartrate is higher than I'd like it to be, back when I loaded pallets in a freezer by hand it was 40ish beats per minute and I'd move at least 20 miles a shift.

Watched some iron wolf videos and that busy dad guy and I am somewhat intrigued. Closest thing I have done was a gymnastic routine about 10 years ago. The thing that interested me the most was that the busy dad did powerlifting of some form or another and claims that he has lost no strength or size while doing burpees as his only form of training for years. A claim that many attest to is that the high intensity cardio doesn't appear to burn up muscle. I assume that actually BUILDING any strength would be hampered as well.

I'll still be throwing sandbags into the mix, there's no reason not to get better at picking up heavy things. I"m currently working with a 150 lb one for reps to get used to the form (shouldering feels weird to me), but the 200 lber is in reach.

Sounds similar to the workouts we had in high school wrestling. That was definitely when I was in my best cardiovascular shape, and I had way more strength per pound than the cross country runners. Throw in some heavy lifting and that sounds pretty ideal. If you're driven to doing that sort of workout then go for it, it sounds like a balanced and reasoned approach.

 

[Rodion]

I was thinking about switching gears to a more stamina high rep calisthenic based approach.

Has anyone had any good luck with things like high rep burpees, prisoner style workouts etc? Just looking to try something different, I have never worked cardio on purpose, usually got plenty from my job. My resting heartrate is higher than I'd like it to be, back when I loaded pallets in a freezer by hand it was 40ish beats per minute and I'd move at least 20 miles a shift.

Watched some iron wolf videos and that busy dad guy and I am somewhat intrigued. Closest thing I have done was a gymnastic routine about 10 years ago. The thing that interested me the most was that the busy dad did powerlifting of some form or another and claims that he has lost no strength or size while doing burpees as his only form of training for years. A claim that many attest to is that the high intensity cardio doesn't appear to burn up muscle. I assume that actually BUILDING any strength would be hampered as well.

I'll still be throwing sandbags into the mix, there's no reason not to get better at picking up heavy things. I"m currently working with a 150 lb one for reps to get used to the form (shouldering feels weird to me), but the 200 lber is in reach.

I’ve tried the busy-Dad style burpee workouts. They will shred you up and get you in great cardiovascular shape, but they are very humbling and really suck at first. You’ll be sucking wind and wondering if you’re about to have some sort of cardiac event, much better to sandbag your first week or two.

I couldn’t stick with it out of boredom, but generally I find muscle loss occurs way less rapidly than people fear. I don’t have any issues believing that transitioning to burpees and calisthenics can preserve a lot of muscle mass if you’ve lifted previously. I do find it hard to believe that the busy Dad guy lost ZERO strength, but I bet his lifts would probably be surprising for someone who has only performed burpees

 

[Blade Runner]

I couldn’t stick with it out of boredom, but generally I find muscle loss occurs way less rapidly than people fear.

Yes. That's why a fitness base for many years and then a re-stimulation of the CNS is more important than anything. You won't have time and energy when you get to your late 30s and beyond, which also makes sense because money and career are far more important at that stage, moving ahead. The key is to maintain a good diet and work out smart, not necessarily hard.

 

[Hannibal]

I’ve tried the busy-Dad style burpee workouts. They will shred you up and get you in great cardiovascular shape, but they are very humbling and really suck at first. You’ll be sucking wind and wondering if you’re about to have some sort of cardiac event, much better to sandbag your first week or two.

I couldn’t stick with it out of boredom, but generally I find muscle loss occurs way less rapidly than people fear. I don’t have any issues believing that transitioning to burpees and calisthenics can preserve a lot of muscle mass if you’ve lifted previously. I do find it hard to believe that the busy Dad guy lost ZERO strength, but I bet his lifts would probably be surprising for someone who has only performed burpees

Yeah his approach is x4 20 minute workouts a week. Iirc, 10 pullups a day as well to somewhat balance out all the pushing.

1 pump burpees for two of them and navy seals for the other two. So basically cardio and legs, then upper body.

I would probably be bored as well.

 

[scary_robot_music]

Yes. That's why a fitness base for many years and then a re-stimulation of the CNS is more important than anything. You won't have time and energy when you get to your late 30s and beyond, which also makes sense because money and career are far more important at that stage, moving ahead. The key is to maintain a good diet and work out smart, not necessarily hard.

I'm in my fifties and find I'm able to work out pretty hard still. They're short workouts though, rarely over 30 minutes, often not even over 25, including warm-up. I think that's all you need if you're natty (not on TRT or other PEDs). I work out in the early morning, before my wife and kids get up.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I guess it depends how advanced you are. If you have been doing it for 20 years, you certainly have a good idea of what works for you. On the topic generally, this guy more or less mirrors my thoughts


One way to combat plateaus is to take smaller weight jumps. For example, when I was doing the starting strength program and I was starting to plateau on the bench press, I would only take a 0.5lb weight jump (fractional plates are great for this).

Another approach is to modify the exercise by adding bands, or by putting an accessory exercise on an off day (i.e. program in tempo bench). Of course, these options are probably only useful if you are advanced or competing.

Right now, I'll change the exercise type when it isn't working for me. For example, I changed cable pullovers to dumbbell pullovers because I felt that I was using too much triceps on the cable pullovers. Otherwise, I'll change the exercise when I buy new equipment or if I'm injured. Another thing I will do is vary my rep ranges to maximize time under tension. Athlean X had a good video on not being "married" to 3 sets for 12 reps when doing hypertrophy training.

Other than those small changes, I've been doing the same hypertrophy program for 7 months now, and I'm still making progress.

Sorry, but the idea altering your workout on a regular basis is a negative isn’t true. I’ve done it off and on for 20 years with very good results and back when I had clients it worked well for them depending on goals and program rotation.

Of course, there is strategic variety and rotation vs just entirely winging it and turning your workouts on their head.

At its most basic if doing a PPL plan as an example, on push day there is no negative to prioritizing chest on one workout and then shoulders on the next push workout, or rotating from a flat to incline priority.

Same as leg day, can be quad focused one week and hamstring focused the next, or rotate heavy squats with BG split squats as a staple.

This approach is common and yields results. But if you did it for 8-12 weeks it then makes sense to rotate back to a more consistent and progressive program. Or not. That depends on other variables as well.

If you have a good understanding of Conjugate Programming.... You can find that there is a sweet spot between exercise rotation and frequency.

Here's an article on it for your edification.

https://www.elitefts.com/education/conjugate-bodybuilding/

 

[staddlelateen]

If you have a good understanding of Conjugate Programming.... You can find that there is a sweet spot between exercise rotation and frequency.

Here's an article on it for your edification.

View attachment 6218
View attachment 6219

https://www.elitefts.com/education/conjugate-bodybuilding/

I'm fairly confident that workout program would kill me

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I'm fairly confident that workout program would kill me

Ha yeah. It requires a high degree of GPP, or general physical preparedness.

That sled work will humble a man quicker than a kick to the nuts.

I'm familiar with conjugate programming as I've detailed in the Powerlifting Thread. You can see my post there of a couple of weeks of my logs for an example.

 

[staddlelateen]

Ha yeah. It requires a high degree of GPP, or general physical preparedness.

That sled work will humble a man quicker than a kick to the nuts.

I'm familiar with conjugate programming as I've detailed in the Powerlifting Thread. You can see my post there of a couple of weeks of my logs for an example.

How long is an average workout for you under conjugate? They seem pretty beefy.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

If you pick the right weights, it should be 50-mins to 1 hour and 15 mins.

I usually do 1 Main exercise (dynamic or max effor depnding on the day
1 Supplemental exercise ( that reinforces what ever movement pattern worked on in the Main exercise)
and 3 or 4 accessories (single joint / isolation exercises for reps)

If you do the math its :
15 mins for Main exercise
10 mins for supplemental exercise
and between 5-10 mins for each accessory.

Upper body its like this:
Max effort Bench (Set of 1 or a max of 3)
JM Press - 4 x 6
Triceps Push down 4 x 15-25
Cable Rows 4 sets of 15
Hammer Curls 3 x 15

Lower body might be:
Dynamic Safety bar squats : 5x5
Speed Deficit Deadlift 5x5
Reverse Hypers 3 x 25
Calf Raises 3 x 20
Banded Crunches 3 x 20

Thats just an example upper and lower day.

The Dynamic effort stuff you should be taking no more than 1 min between sets (goal of 45 seconds or less)
The repetition work should be brisk, maybe 1 min or less between sets also.
The Max Effort work might need 2 or 3 mins between the reps over 90%.

You can absolutely drag these work outs out longer. When my wife works out with me, we wind up working out for about 2 hours because I bullshit with her vs when its just me listening to the death metal and headbanging against the barbell.