Lent 2024

[Iacobus]

Maybe one of you guys can answer this? Tried to ask a priest but didn’t get to it at last nights pre-sanctified.

Why olive oil specifically? We have “approved oils” at our coffee hour and even had some “buttered bread” at a Lenten pitch in once. What’s so special about olive oil? Why am I allowed to cook with coconut and avocado oil?

Why is hard liquor and wine bad news bears? Meanwhile beer is ok as long as you aren’t pounding it and partying. Can someone explain the reasoning? Shouldn’t oil mean oil and wine mean all alcohol?

It's a bit of "letter of the law vs spirit of the law" going on. Remember that a person could follow the abstentions but stuff their face with approved foods and they would be following the letter but not the spirit. I would recommend getting the question to your priest and obeying his instructions.

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

Maybe one of you guys can answer this? Tried to ask a priest but didn’t get to it at last nights pre-sanctified.

Why olive oil specifically? We have “approved oils” at our coffee hour and even had some “buttered bread” at a Lenten pitch in once. What’s so special about olive oil? Why am I allowed to cook with coconut and avocado oil?

Why is hard liquor and wine bad news bears? Meanwhile beer is ok as long as you aren’t pounding it and partying. Can someone explain the reasoning? Shouldn’t oil mean oil and wine mean all alcohol?

I tried asking my priest about this and he said I can just use any oil. He said something along the lines that these no-oil rules were made with Europeans in mind because they have a lot more food variety over there than we have in Latin America. I'm not sure I understood his position on this matter properly as it feels like he tried to give me a very brief explanation. Regardless, if he says so then I suppose I'll use oil.

 

[Jeremiah Branch]

I would say don't overthink it in either direction. Namely, as your default, do not have any oil (of any kind) or any alcohol. That's the spirit of the fast.

But don't overthink in the other direction: If you have some rice and beans at a restaurant as your only option, I wouldn't obsess over whether the beans were cooked with some oil.

 

[analyst_green]

This is the first Lenten fast I'm attempting

I honestly have no idea what to eat for breakfast if I can't have eggs, dairy or meat. All I can think of is bread/toast. Any suggestions for a breakfast?

Other than this one:

On Wednesdays and Fridays throughout the year, I would often have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for breakfast, along with a cup of tea. That gets me through the morning.

I'm attempting to give up dairy and eggs throughout this fast. But it's not going so well. I can do it for one day but any more seems so difficult. It seems the frustration from stricter fasting along with stress at work is leading me to other sins like eating meat, despondency, or lust. Does anyone else get this? It wasn't until I started taking Orthodoxy seriously that I realized how much my stomach controls me.

 

[Cornelius V.E.]

Fr. Josiah Trenham on how to keep the Great Lent fast:

 

[Samseau]

I honestly have no idea what to eat for breakfast if I can't have eggs, dairy or meat. All I can think of is bread/toast. Any suggestions for a breakfast?

As Kingdom suggested, I use a LOT of peanut butter with many pieces of toast. Peanut butter is high in protein and tastes great, BUT, find brands of peanut butter with zero sugar added. I use Teddy's, which only has 1g of sugar (which occurs naturally in nuts I believe).

 

[Samseau]

Maybe one of you guys can answer this? Tried to ask a priest but didn’t get to it at last nights pre-sanctified.

Why olive oil specifically? We have “approved oils” at our coffee hour and even had some “buttered bread” at a Lenten pitch in once. What’s so special about olive oil? Why am I allowed to cook with coconut and avocado oil?

Why is hard liquor and wine bad news bears? Meanwhile beer is ok as long as you aren’t pounding it and partying. Can someone explain the reasoning? Shouldn’t oil mean oil and wine mean all alcohol?

So, this is something I learned from my Bishop:

All of the fasting rules date back to the days of the Apostiles. They were created by Jews creating fasting rules, and so the food fasting choices reflect the important foods of the day.

Olive oil -

Olive trees took generations to grow, and the olive oil produced from olives and their seeds came from trees that were generally planted by one's grandfathers. It was the family inheritance, and olive oil was essential for many different things, not just cooking. Dressing wounds, in the bath as a cleaning agent (i.e. soap), burning lamps for light at night - and many other things, olive oil was a luxury product that was necessary for a huge variety of day to day uses.

Thus to give up Olive oil was a big deal, because it was a premium product not just for cooking but many other parts of life. It was directly seen as a holy substance of healing given down through families across generations.

When soldiers invaded Jewish lands, they would always burn and cut down olive trees first, since invaders knew that the trees were a great source of Jewish wealth back in the day.

Using coconut or avocado oil is far less healthy, as the stuff is cheap and doesn't take 40 years to produce. So it's debatable if using cheap oils is violating fasting rules, as only Olive oil is the real Oil. That said, it's probably best to avoid oils as much as possible to get into the spirit of fasts used back in 80 AD.

I think my Bishop would be okay with using substitute oils, however, he certainly wouldn't be opposed to eliminating oil usage either if you can swing it.

Wine -

Water was generally contaminated, and so alcohol was needed to purify water and make it safe to drink. The main source of alcohol came from wine. Thus wine was a source of life, being the sustenance to purify water. To give up wine in the old days must have been extremely difficult, since it was the main way people got their fluids. Wine in the old days also had far less alcohol content than now, it should be noted.

I suppose without wine in the old times, one would need to eat grapes for water. So avoiding alcohol/wine was a big deal.

 

[OrthoSerb]

This is the first Lenten fast I'm attempting
On Wednesdays and Fridays throughout the year, I would often have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for breakfast, along with a cup of tea. That gets me through the morning.

I'm attempting to give up dairy and eggs throughout this fast. But it's not going so well. I can do it for one day but any more seems so difficult. It seems the frustration from stricter fasting along with stress at work is leading me to other sins like eating meat, despondency, or lust. Does anyone else get this? It wasn't until I started taking Orthodoxy seriously that I realized how much my stomach controls me.

Fasting is something you get better at with time, like honing a profession or training to be an athlete. Over time things that were previously inconceivable become routine. I used to think I couldn't fast according to the calendar, or that fasting without oil was out of reach, or that not eating for a day was not doable. Your body, mind and soul adjust incrementally. It's important not to be too easy on yourself but also not to overdo it, break your body and fall into despondency and give up completely.

 

[OrthoSerb]

Using coconut or avocado oil is far less healthy, as the stuff is cheap and doesn't take 40 years to produce. So it's debatable if using cheap oils is violating fasting rules, as only Olive oil is the real Oil. That said, it's probably best to avoid oils as much as possible to get into the spirit of fasts used back in 80 AD.

I'm not sure I agree with this part of what you wrote. Were coconut and avocado oil even commonplace at the time and places that the fasting rules were originally written? I don't know for sure but I would hazard a guess that its more likely they were not even part of the common diet, not that they were left out because they were less healthy, cheap or took less time to produce. If olive oil was the only oil product back then, the spirit of the rules would dictate that we would exclude anything we have access to and regard as oil today. We can talk about quality and health etc but fundamentally these types of oils are used interchangeably, we're not talking about different food types. To me including alternative oils in a fast without oil has always smacked of trying to live by the letter of the law whilst violating the spirit. It would be more honest for such people to simply admit they don't want to or can't fast without oil. The latter is the case for some people and that's fine, but there's no need for them to ask everyone else to participate in the pretence that they are following an oil free fast when they're clearly not.

 

[OrthoSerb]

I honestly have no idea what to eat for breakfast if I can't have eggs, dairy or meat. All I can think of is bread/toast. Any suggestions for a breakfast?

Other than this one:

Oats, nuts and fruit soaked in water is my go-to for breakfast.

 

[Samseau]

I'm not sure I agree with this part of what you wrote. Were coconut and avocado oil even commonplace at the time and places that the fasting rules were originally written?

No, just olive oil existed. Coconuts come from Southeast Asia, and Avocados come from South America - neither were discovered for hundreds of years after Christ.

I don't know for sure but I would hazard a guess that its more likely they were not even part of the common diet, not that they were left out because they were less healthy, cheap or took less time to produce.

I think you misunderstand me, I'm saying today, in the present time, avocados and coconut oils are cheaper to produce than olive oils, which since olive oils come from trees that take decades to grow.

If olive oil was the only oil product back then, the spirit of the rules would dictate that we would exclude anything we have access to and regard as oil today. We can talk about quality and health etc but fundamentally these types of oils are used interchangeably, we're not talking about different food types. To me including alternative oils in a fast without oil has always smacked of trying to live by the letter of the law whilst violating the spirit. It would be more honest for such people to simply admit they don't want to or can't fast without oil. The latter is the case for some people and that's fine, but there's no need for them to ask everyone else to participate in the pretence that they are following an oil free fast when you're clearly not.

Like I said, it's debatable and I've seen Bishops and Priests argue both ways on the oil subject. I tend to agree with you, for what it's worth, but I'm not going to tell my Bishop he's wrong lol.

 

[OrthoSerb]

No, just olive oil existed. Coconuts come from Southeast Asia, and Avocados come from South America - neither were discovered for hundreds of years after Christ.

That was my hunch.

I think you misunderstand me, I'm saying today, in the present time, avocados and coconut oils are cheaper to produce than olive oils, which since olive oils come from trees that take decades to grow.

Understood. I guess I don't really see the rationale of including some oils because they are cheaper to produce. Any oil adds a type of richness to the food that would otherwise be absent and my understanding is that the intent is to deprive ourselves of this for a period. Cost is not really the primary concern otherwise we could find cheap and unhealthy forms of meat to include. And by the way avocado oil is a lot more expensive than olive oil where I live.

Like I said, it's debatable and I've seen Bishops and Priests argue both ways on the oil subject. I tend to agree with you, for what it's worth, but I'm not going to tell my Bishop he's wrong lol.

I did gather that our takes are similar, I just tend to respond more to the parts of posts I disagree with, no personal attack was intended. And I don't recommend people trying to educate their priests or bishops. Humility and obedience are paramount.

 

[Kingdom]

Bishop or not, to state that other oils can be used during the Great Lent at personal discretion, and not only exceptionally by dispensation, would be contrary to Church typicon and canons.

In most Orthodox countries sunflower oil is used by default, and it is forbidden 5 days a week during Lent. Church typicons do not know the abstinence from olive oil, but abstinence from food prepared with oil.

I don't think that the main purpose of fasting is some kind of "sacrifice" in the sense of paying some tithe, but to master your lower self and passions. And the food we eat affects that directly.

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

As Kingdom suggested, I use a LOT of peanut butter with many pieces of toast. Peanut butter is high in protein and tastes great, BUT, find brands of peanut butter with zero sugar added. I use Teddy's, which only has 1g of sugar (which occurs naturally in nuts I believe).

What if the peanut butter says on the label that "it might contain traces of milk" because it's made with equipment that is also used to make stuff that contains milk? Is that off-limits or am I overthinking this in a legalistic way?

 

[Iacobus]

What if the peanut butter says "it might contain traces of milk" because it's made in equipment that also handles stuff that contains milk? Is that off-limits or am I overthinking this in a legalistic way?

Option 2, the point isn't that not consuming certain molecules gives you spiritual powers, it's that you are practicing ascesis by abstaining from foods that are pleasurable and fuel the passions, exercising willpower over your base desires.

 

[Aboulia]

Maybe one of you guys can answer this? Tried to ask a priest but didn’t get to it at last nights pre-sanctified.

Why olive oil specifically? We have “approved oils” at our coffee hour and even had some “buttered bread” at a Lenten pitch in once. What’s so special about olive oil? Why am I allowed to cook with coconut and avocado oil?

Why is hard liquor and wine bad news bears? Meanwhile beer is ok as long as you aren’t pounding it and partying. Can someone explain the reasoning? Shouldn’t oil mean oil and wine mean all alcohol?

AFAIK, beer was a method to preserve calories in food that would otherwise be lost, and it was also a method to get water, and as Samseau mentioned, both wine and beer were of a much lower alcohol content, so technically it's allowed. Technicalities are not helpful. If you want to be stupid about the laws, "technically" peanut butter separates with the oil at the top. But which Orthodox person have you ever heard say "Peanut butter is not allowed" Why? Because the aim is not to abstain from oil, the aim is to bring forth Christ from within us. We're all struggling together abstaining from the same things as a parish to draw closer in Christ, which will also draw us closer to those denying themselves and struggling according to their condition/strength from the same things.

I think this video will help you.

 

[Hermetic Seal]

This is my fourth Lent and each year things just seem to get worse. I'm actually getting worse at fasting, and it feels each year I'm capable of doing less all around and just making spiritual regress rather than progress.

I'm not sitting around eating hamburgers all day, it's actually pretty easy for me to give up meat (honestly, I miss stuff made with eggs a lot more.) The real problem is that I just eat stupid snacks and constantly grab random foods, especially at night. It's pretty easy for me to go until lunch without eating anything at all but I can't maintain any self-control after that.

I already gave up on trying to follow the exact letter of the daily fasting rule a long time ago. All of these excessively nitpicky rules: "Strict fast by monastic charter, bread, fruits, and vegetables only," "Food without oil," and so on. I spend most of my day dealing with two small children and constantly cleaning up after them, trying to keep them alive, and trying to keep my house from completely falling apart, I just don't really care if this or that cereal bar contains oil or not. I feel like these rules were not devised with situations like mine in mind, or really any situation besides "monk in a monastery."

At the start of the fast I resolved to try to keep my prayer rule as well as read some from the Prologue/lives of the saints each day, at least skim some of the daily services in the Triodion, follow the daily Scripture readings as well as additional personal Scripture reading, and at this point I'm so fatigued and beat down I feel like I can't keep up with virtually any of it anymore. In previous years I went to at least one weekday service like a Presanctified Liturgy during Lent but I haven't managed that a single time this year, between needing to devote even more time than usual to plugging the holes in the sinking ship that is my family life and just feeling totally out of energy and willpower in general.

It's actually been easy to mostly fast from things like music, playing guitar/bass, video games, TV/movies, and other frivolous entertainment, because I've lost all appetite for them and just don't enjoy any of it, or much of anything, anymore. Pretty much any scraps of free time I have is devoted to trying to catch up on my reading, mentioned above.

About all I can manage at this point is making an effort to not complain at my family, yell at my wife or kids, and try to force myself to be loving toward them and act like everything is okay despite feeling like everything is awful all the time. The general rhythm of Orthodox life I'm experiencing could be described as "be miserable, console yourself by saying that being miserable is actually great and spiritual progress, then feel guilty and chastise yourself for daring to think you're achieving anything, then repeat." Yes, our Western world worships comfort and convenience and "fun," and this is quite true of contemporary Christianity in general too, but I feel like trying to live the "Orthodox" way is totally bleak and not sustainable long-term. Isn't there something viable between these two extremes?

Weirdly enough, I'm finally reading The Ladder Of Divine Ascent and finding it the most practical and helpful thing I've taken up during Lent, with much of the advice clearly applicable to my family situation. But I'm only about a third of the way into it so we'll see if that continues.

 

[GodGiveMeStrength]

@Hermetic Seal Without going into great detail, we seem to be having similar experiences. This is my third Lent and if I were to give myself a rating, it would be my worst yet. Dietary restrictions are not an issue, although I do eat the occasional chicken fry off the floor if the only other option is it getting thrown out and I can't see wasting food as a means of sticking to the letter of the fast.

I was keeping to the prayer rule but even that is falling apart. On the old site I regularly mentioned the struggles that my converting to Orthodoxy has caused within my family, so I'll spare everyone that, but I am in agreement with the misery and just trying to keep the family afloat feeling. This Lent, my plan was to replace the mindless downtime junk (movie or video game) with reading the many books I've acquired over the past months but I've found that those things were simply helping me stay awake longer because I can't get through more than a few pages without falling asleep so I end up cleaning whatever the latest disaster the boys created instead. So, still no reading.

I've not had any alcohol though, which I'm grateful for as I was using that with increasing regularity as a crutch and finding the hooks in me were deepening. But other things like exhaustion, anger, and short-temperament have reared their heads.

Anyway, I blame these things more on the "season of life" that I'm in (to use that good ol' evangelical phrase) moreso than anything faith-related. But on the other hand it has also shown that I'm desperately in need of prayer and God's grace, and maybe that's just what I'm supposed to be gathering from this time anyway?

 

[GoodShepherd]

This is my fourth Lent and each year things just seem to get worse. I'm actually getting worse at fasting, and it feels each year I'm capable of doing less all around and just making spiritual regress rather than progress.

I'm not sitting around eating hamburgers all day, it's actually pretty easy for me to give up meat (honestly, I miss stuff made with eggs a lot more.) The real problem is that I just eat stupid snacks and constantly grab random foods, especially at night. It's pretty easy for me to go until lunch without eating anything at all but I can't maintain any self-control after that.

I already gave up on trying to follow the exact letter of the daily fasting rule a long time ago. All of these excessively nitpicky rules: "Strict fast by monastic charter, bread, fruits, and vegetables only," "Food without oil," and so on. I spend most of my day dealing with two small children and constantly cleaning up after them, trying to keep them alive, and trying to keep my house from completely falling apart, I just don't really care if this or that cereal bar contains oil or not. I feel like these rules were not devised with situations like mine in mind, or really any situation besides "monk in a monastery."

At the start of the fast I resolved to try to keep my prayer rule as well as read some from the Prologue/lives of the saints each day, at least skim some of the daily services in the Triodion, follow the daily Scripture readings as well as additional personal Scripture reading, and at this point I'm so fatigued and beat down I feel like I can't keep up with virtually any of it anymore. In previous years I went to at least one weekday service like a Presanctified Liturgy during Lent but I haven't managed that a single time this year, between needing to devote even more time than usual to plugging the holes in the sinking ship that is my family life and just feeling totally out of energy and willpower in general.

It's actually been easy to mostly fast from things like music, playing guitar/bass, video games, TV/movies, and other frivolous entertainment, because I've lost all appetite for them and just don't enjoy any of it, or much of anything, anymore. Pretty much any scraps of free time I have is devoted to trying to catch up on my reading, mentioned above.

About all I can manage at this point is making an effort to not complain at my family, yell at my wife or kids, and try to force myself to be loving toward them and act like everything is okay despite feeling like everything is awful all the time. The general rhythm of Orthodox life I'm experiencing could be described as "be miserable, console yourself by saying that being miserable is actually great and spiritual progress, then feel guilty and chastise yourself for daring to think you're achieving anything, then repeat." Yes, our Western world worships comfort and convenience and "fun," and this is quite true of contemporary Christianity in general too, but I feel like trying to live the "Orthodox" way is totally bleak and not sustainable long-term. Isn't there something viable between these two extremes?

Weirdly enough, I'm finally reading The Ladder Of Divine Ascent and finding it the most practical and helpful thing I've taken up during Lent, with much of the advice clearly applicable to my family situation. But I'm only about a third of the way into it so we'll see if that continues.

Im sorry to hear that you are having these feelings and also @GodGiveMeStrength , would be interesting to hear from you guys what is the biggest thing you struggling with, whats the hardest part you find of being Orthodox at this present time? for me personally Iv been experiencing the opposite, this is my 2nd great lent and I was just baptised the other day during lent thank God, but each lent and fast has been getting easier and easier, Im also the only 1 in my family who is Orthodox so I have to make all my own meals seperate to my wife and kids but Im also not an American maybe my life is different to you guys over there? the first year I never did the wednesday and friday fasts I only never drank wine on those days but I did the Saturday midnight no food until after liturgy, this year I have been doing the wednesday and friday fast every week no problem and this lent is really going well It seems I have built up a fasting stamina that I didnt have 2 years ago, I did go through hell during the catechuman process though it was really hell so my struggles are different to yours, almost got divorced, almost lost our house and my family, about twice I was put in a situation where I was asked to deny Christ and if I didnt I would lose something very precious, I obviously didnt deny Christ and chose the suffering, but it seems like you guys are going through a different kind of suffering I pray God will give you the grace and endurance to go through this trial, this phase of having small children you going through is not easy I have also gone through it and still going through it, it was the first time I almost got divorced, my 3 kids are bigger now but still all under 10 its easier now. If I may say the things that really keep my going is my prayer corner in the garage thats where I go and pray away from everyone sometimes even late at night when everyone is asleep and also attending church every week, the times I didnt go those were bad weeks for me, I also noticed that when I was going through hell I was forced to pray more and focus more on God to the point that I was prepared to loose everything and everyone, the danger I see right now after my baptism is that all of a sudden my life at this present moment has no difficulties, no persecutions so Iv noticed that I havent been praying as much as when I had trouble so I have to be careful, this is when the fasts and going to church help me, it humbles me,

 

[GoodShepherd]

@Hermetic Seal Without going into great detail, we seem to be having similar experiences. This is my third Lent and if I were to give myself a rating, it would be my worst yet. Dietary restrictions are not an issue, although I do eat the occasional chicken fry off the floor if the only other option is it getting thrown out and I can't see wasting food as a means of sticking to the letter of the fast.

I was keeping to the prayer rule but even that is falling apart. On the old site I regularly mentioned the struggles that my converting to Orthodoxy has caused within my family, so I'll spare everyone that, but I am in agreement with the misery and just trying to keep the family afloat feeling. This Lent, my plan was to replace the mindless downtime junk (movie or video game) with reading the many books I've acquired over the past months but I've found that those things were simply helping me stay awake longer because I can't get through more than a few pages without falling asleep so I end up cleaning whatever the latest disaster the boys created instead. So, still no reading.

I've not had any alcohol though, which I'm grateful for as I was using that with increasing regularity as a crutch and finding the hooks in me were deepening. But other things like exhaustion, anger, and short-temperament have reared their heads.

Anyway, I blame these things more on the "season of life" that I'm in (to use that good ol' evangelical phrase) moreso than anything faith-related. But on the other hand it has also shown that I'm desperately in need of prayer and God's grace, and maybe that's just what I'm supposed to be gathering from this time anyway?

I went through that family issue thing before my recent Orthodox baptism I know what you going through, but if I may say you have to choose Christ over your family, over everything, I told my family that I would never leave them and I would always be here for them no matter what hell I had to go through but I told them Im not gonna stop my faith or going to church, that was not up for debate, over 90% of my family never went to my baptism even kt wife didnt go, i received messages from family members saying they not coming to my baptism because Im being led astray by satan and committing idolatry, those kinds of messages, my own mother didnt even come she says she was very hurt, my wife said if I get baptised she was never gonna kiss me or have sex with me again and was gonna file for divorce, but guess what right now I have no family issues all that has passed (for now it seems) Im on good terms with my mom, my wife didnt file for divorce and we having sex etc etc, God worked a miracle, theres a scene in a keano reaves movie ronin 47 when they went to a village of spirits in the forest and Keano reavea told his soldier no matter what he sees he must not draw his sword so while he was in the forest of the spirits he saw wild visions that seemed so real of things attacking him and he was holding onto his sword tempted to draw it and fight back, but he didnt and then it all went away, thats kind of what you might go through but dont draw your sword