Is secular dating/game over after online dating apps?

[loremipsum]

NOTE: This thread is not to give any tips to secular dating, nor it is to encourage it.
It is rather to discuss the current state of dating scene from outside perspective, especially since many of us were into 'game' before Godpill.


Looks like the days of game are over. Many zoomers, even older people, are getting into looksmaxxing as an alternative to cold approaches and bars/nightclubs. Not only do men of today have to compete there with men inside the venue, but also with top 10% of men in womens tinder profiles and social media.
The whole "women dont care about looks" mantra that was on the advent of PUA was basically destroyed when Tinder arrived. We've seen the Tinder experiments done with child molester and nazi male models. The pandoras box has been opened and there is no going back. Not only that, the top men are having sex more than ever while the average men are getting the scraps if any. Secular women don't have to care about being shamed as slut either. Not only does (((society))) encourage it, they can do it discreetly on their smartphones without anyone ever knowing.
Notice how RSD basically vanished at the advent of Tinder, and so did many other pick up companies. Now they focuse on self help. Even Roosh admitted game is getting harder, and that was years ago.

It's getting scary for future generations of secular men. Online dating is becoming more and more the normal way people meet while simultaneously getting isolated from eachother.
I'm not saying game does not work, it does on certain secular women, but online dating has had an immeasurable damage on society. The days of RVF golden age must seem like a different world for young men.

Luckily we are not the only players in this world and it is up to God whether we will ultimately find a virtous wife. We strive to be godly men and meet similar women. After that, there's not much we can do. I do not mean by any means to blackpill, but for secular men the game seems more rigged than ever. We are now witnessing the absolute peak of female hypergamy and I wonder how much longer this can last. Even if secular men do not wish to be religious, this should be a time for them to reflect on" why indeed did every single religion on earth control female sexuality?".

 

[Bizet]

Disclaimer: I’m talking about finding a life partner here, not casual hookups.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: the rise in dating apps are a good thing, especially if you're looking for a wife. They allow you to filter for important factors like relationship goals and religious beliefs, which can save a lot of time.

It's not about "looksmaxxing", but rather "life-experience maxxing." Your photos should reflect that you're a leader, adventurous, trusted by women, and surrounded by friends. Essentially, you want to come across as someone who’s socially capable and well-rounded.

The irony is, to be successful on dating apps, you need to become the kind of person who doesn’t actually need them in the first place.

 

[loremipsum]

Disclaimer: I’m talking about finding a life partner here, not casual hookups.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: the rise in dating apps are a good thing, especially if you're looking for a wife. They allow you to filter for important factors like relationship goals and religious beliefs, which can save a lot of time.

It's not about "looksmaxxing", but rather "life-experience maxxing." Your photos should reflect that you're a leader, adventurous, trusted by women, and surrounded by friends. Essentially, you want to come across as someone who’s socially capable and well-rounded.

The irony is, to be successful on dating apps, you need to become the kind of person who doesn’t actually need them in the first place.

What kind of dating apps are you using? I find it hard to believe Christian women are on Tinder when they could be at church. Or is it that people don't approach them at church?

 

[Droughtmeat]

I feel as though more men realize that those apps are a scam. Most of my friends are secular, even those that aren't vaxxed, yet none of them have met their long-term girlfriends or wives online. It's usually just through their social circle, some kind of dance class, conversation at a bar (not at nightclubs),

As for "cold approaching", yes, it can still be done. The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that many men use canned openers, instead of looking for more genuine interest and connection.

However, without those "pick up lines" some shy or socially awkward guys feel as though they have no way of starting a conversation, apart from a not so charming format, like "Hey, how are you? Where do you live?"

Unfortunately, it's really up to men to hone those social skills and develop the understanding that there will be opportunities in the conversation to be funny and charming, but patience and knowing when and how are key.

 

[loremipsum]

I feel as though more men realize that those apps are a scam. Most of my friends are secular, even those that aren't vaxxed, yet none of them have met their long-term girlfriends or wives online. It's usually just through their social circle, some kind of dance class, conversation at a bar (not at nightclubs),

As for "cold approaching", yes, it can still be done. The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that many men use canned openers, instead of looking for more genuine interest and connection.

However, without those "pick up lines" some shy or socially awkward guys feel as though they have no way of starting a conversation, apart from a not so charming format, like "Hey, how are you? Where do you live?"

Unfortunately, it's really up to men to hone those social skills and develop the understanding that there will be opportunities in the conversation to be funny and charming, but patience and knowing when and how are key.

Social circle is really the best bet I'd give to newcomes to the field. To the other point, as Heartise timelessly said
"You rely on “pickup” lines to eventually discard reliance on pickup lines."

 

[Bizet]

What kind of dating apps are you using? I find it hard to believe Christian women are on Tinder when they could be at church. Or is it that people don't approach them at church?

I use Hinge

 

[scorpion]

Social media and dating apps basically allow women to cast a much wider net when fishing for a man. Women previously had a much smaller pool of men to choose from, limited to their individual social circles and the few bold men who would confidently approach them at bars or other social gatherings. This allowed the average man to have much more success, since he simply had less competition to overcome. But now men are not only competing with the other men at a particular venue and in the woman's social circle, but with essentially every man in their regional area (dating apps) and with every famous/wealthy man on social media.

Game still exists in a new form, but it's very different from the heyday of PUA culture. Modern game is about looksmaxing, carefully crafting and curating an impressive social media image and learning how to successfully flirt and build interest with women through texting and video chats. It's very much a "rich get richer" scenario where a small number of men enjoy outsized success while most suffer. These trends were already apparent by the mid 2010s and have only intensified since then. Unfortunately, I don't have any realistic solutions to offer the average guy. It's a very difficult situation and you're basically trying to win a game that was rigged against you from the start.

I do think there is still some potential for guys to work on their charisma and smalltalk skills and cold approach women successfully in public. And I think that's mostly because it's simply so rare for that to happen anymore that it's a complete novelty to the woman at this point.

 

[Blade Runner]

It's getting scary for future generations of secular men. Online dating is becoming more and more the normal way people meet while simultaneously getting isolated from eachother.

There's only one way this can go, since mostly it's artificial, and it's weird to say it but the population boom was as historically artificial as the ascendency of women, and of course they go together. The way it goes is to depopulation or greater zombification of people if they don't outright die. I think the former is preferred, but it's all dystopian.

I feel as though more men realize that those apps are a scam.

Yes, I could tell you in 2016 they were a scam, I saw that pretty quickly (months). Think about how long ago that was. We didn't get to talk about it and refine our analysis on it for a couple of years, but you could tell that it was all swiping and attention whoring activity. Some hooking up of course occurred, but it was older washed up types that hadn't figured out that it was actually a hookup app the whole time.

As for "cold approaching", yes, it can still be done. The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that many men use canned openers, instead of looking for more genuine interest and connection.

It can only really be done in foreign countries at this point with any ROI. Even there, the internet and status game has spread pretty far all over the world, as scorpion relates a little lower.

Social circle is really the best bet I'd give to newcomes to the field.

That's why I say ROI; I don't mean hitting on girls and PUA stuff, I mean it's just not worth your time because younger girls and wife material really just aren't available in the US at this time. Especially if you are an older guy, you're socially locked out even if you are fairly elite in a few categories. If the girl is even a 7 she will have so much attention, or already got so much for her life, it's not the type of girl you can build with anyway.

Modern game is about looksmaxing, carefully crafting and curating an impressive social media image and learning how to successfully flirt and build interest with women through texting and video chats.

Precisely, which is why IG game was starting in the mid 2010s, around that time when I said online was already over (hence people switching) and is now the way to do it, because it's all status and feels, still digital though. The reason why it's so tough is that it's hard to be in a country that doesn't have a ton of those guys around anyway, even if they have the technology, but those are few and far between (but they do exist). Everything is still based on the basic like the "busted dudes test".

These trends were already apparent by the mid 2010s and have only intensified since then

Yup. Exactly, and as stated above.

 

[Douglas Quaid]

Almost every guy I know that uses online dating has problems with their girlfriend/wife. These guys have been giving attention to and trying to compete for awful, used up women.

Seems a lot more productive to go out in the real world, be patient and meet women the natural way.

 

[Australia Sucks]

Unfortunately, I don't have any realistic solutions to offer the average guy. It's a very difficult situation and you're basically trying to win a game that was rigged against you from the start.

The only viable solution as a man these days is to go overseas.

And even overseas is getting harder.

Overseas is no longer a case of just turning up, ideally you need to look decent, have money, speak the local language, spend a decent amount of time in one city and approach a lot of girls. When you think about the vast amount of effort behind all of that just to get a woman its mind boggling. But at least overseas you have a fighting chance of getting a young attractive woman.

 

[Australia Sucks]

If the girl is even a 7 she will have so much attention, or already got so much for her life, it's not the type of girl you can build with anyway.

In the anglosphere things have detiorated so much that 7s are literally receiving DMs on Instagram from professional athletes and minor celebrities.

 

[Blade Runner]

In the anglosphere things have detiorated so much that 7s are literally receiving DMs on Instagram from professional athletes and minor celebrities.

When you look at a lot of the IG types even and athletes, a) a lot of athletes are married to marginal women for their status, b) a lot of fitness types are in great shape but it seems to me that they are that way because they have a 5 face at best, c) the whole western world is cooked since youth is near impossible, probably the hot ones are sugar babies or escorts anyway, and the behavior of girls is atrocious.

As I've said, we're at least 1.5 generations from a return, and to be honest, it'll just be "move to another country" because of geopolitical concerns that will be the stone that kills all birds, anyway.

 

[Zep]

I was there at the beginning of the whole Pua thing, a couple of workshops with Mystery and RSD. The problem has always been the same, always. Sure, you can learn and practice lines, body language, looks maxing, but if your deep internal state is off, you have a serious problem. And I've seen this problem play out again and again and again. Actually, Mystery suffers from this. Let's say you get good at that game, and you've managed to attract a woman into your life, how long is she going to stay there when she realizes, and she will, that the presentation initially put forward doesn't hold up over time. In a lot of senses, you have basically become most women. The presentation is excellent and has been practiced, but then the real person starts to show over time and keeping up the presentation becomes exhausting to uphold.

I know a couple of male tens who are cleaning up on Tinder. Eventually they get bored of the easy sex and want something much more substantial.

Cold approach isn't over either, however it requires a lot of effort. Time spent in the field and the constant rejections.... If you can tough it out I believe you can do okay. I've watched a 55-year-old friend of mine who is about 5'6" and not so genetically gifted, learn to be charming, Etc, get nice responses in field even if they don't turn into a number. Many times he's told me that the woman he's approached have thanked him for making their day! He has gotten a lot of dates out of cold approach and even a two-year relationship with a quality girl. He has a lot going for him in his professional life, and even personal life, but there's something deep there that I think he needs to settle that women are picking up on.

Someone commented above about seeing athletes and other GigaChad types with women they consider far below them in terms of sexual Marketplace value. Well, we don't know how good the real relationship is do we? Case in point, there was a guy in our city who was a male model, not only that, he was smart, bold, and fearless. He slept with so many hot women. He ended up marrying what many guys call a six, and stunned many who knew what he was capable of. Thing is, he knew he could get cheap easy sex anytime, the so-called six stuck with him through good and hard times. That's quality that only he could truly appreciate.

Social Circle is really the way to go, but as we all know, physical meeting places have been fractured and disappeared with the advent of the internet. This is an issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[Blade Runner]

Amazing post my friend. You are spot on.

Actually, Mystery suffers from this. Let's say you get good at that game, and you've managed to attract a woman into your life, how long is she going to stay there when she realizes, and she will, that the presentation initially put forward doesn't hold up over time.

Yes, I know openers who could do this and it wouldn't take long before the short term wittiness, sharp tongue, or fun environment from the bar didn't matter.

The presentation is excellent and has been practiced, but then the real person starts to show over time and keeping up the presentation becomes exhausting to uphold.

Again, exactly. While honing your persona can be done with wholesomeness and in a real way, we all are who we are after some hard work but the mostly it's finished by 20-30 in terms of the formative years.

The reality is that you have to go where women are that need you, period. The west doesn't need men, or treats them this way, so it's finished.

As with your example of the 6 that treated the man well, the key is precisely that: try to find someone good looking enough that chooses you.

 

[Samseau]

I've always thought secular dating was a waste of time. I've always used dance game and have not suffered any of the problems other forms of game have. I have a loving girlfriend of many years now and I'm confident if I were to become single again, I could use dance game to attract a new girl even though I'd have to sift through thousands to find a decent girl.

Online dating is terrible, massive waste of time, always use IRL game and stay away from venues with alcohol. Church can be a desert but some churches have a lot of young women in them, especially in cities. Always look for a niche and avoid the herd of clueless beta males. That is the fastest way to find a quality woman today.

Don't listen to the guys saying there's no hope, all women are broken, etc. It's a blackpill lie. About 25% of women are good wife material (yes this is a civilization ending number). The competition for these women is insane of course, but it's doable to get one when you consider most guys are also lousy quality. The thing is, those 25% of good women are snatched up very quickly, and most of the single women you meet out there will belong to the 75% of broken women. On any given day you may meet 1 out of 100 girls who is a worthwhile prospect. So keep it real, never get your hopes up on one girl, and do not covet any one woman (it's a sin).

Just keep looking and ask the Lord to make you righteous and Holy in all things, so that you can be rewarded by Him.

 

[Australia Sucks]

About 25% of women are good wife material (yes this is a civilization ending number).

Not in any Anglo-sphere country.

Sure maybe in a place like Armenia or Belarus that might be true but its absurd and completely comical to claim 25% of women in U.S.A. or Australia or England or Canada, etc are wife-able.

 

[Douglas Quaid]

That number would make sense at church or similar places, which is where we should be meeting women. Or maybe a more rural, conservative part of the US.

But for the most part, I agree with Australia Sucks.

 

[Samseau]

Not in any Anglo-sphere country.

Sure maybe in a place like Armenia or Belarus that might be true but its absurd and completely comical to claim 25% of women in U.S.A. or Australia or England or Canada, etc are wife-able.

It matches my real world experience and it matches the birthrates. White birthrates is around 1.5ish, which basically makes sense if 1/4 of the women are having 80% of the children. There are still millions of working marriages in Anglosphere countries.

25% is still very low. Imagine playing a game of musical chairs where 75% of the participants could not get a chair.

 

[scorpion]

its absurd and completely comical to claim 25% of women in U.S.A. or Australia or England or Canada, etc are wife-able.

The thing is, those 25% of good women are snatched up very quickly, and most of the single women you meet out there will belong to the 75% of broken women

Australia Sucks, the key here is what Samseau said about most of them already being taken. Of that quality 25% of women, 95% are probably already engaged or married by their mid-twenties. They simply aren't on the market anymore after that. This is why many single men feel like there are no quality women at all - because almost all of the good ones have already exited the dating pool, and the highest value among them were pretty much off the market halfway through college. Most good women get scooped up fast.

 

[Australia Sucks]

White birthrates is around 1.5ish, which basically makes sense if 1/4 of the women are having 80% of the children.

Just because women are having children that does not mean they are good quality women. There are plenty of ghetto single mothers with 3 children from 3 different fathers.

70% of women in U.S.A. are either overweight or obese. So most of them are already disqualified off the bat.

Out of the remaining 30% that are not overweight or obese how many are divorced and or single mothers?

In the U.S.A. around 21% of all mothers are single mothers which translates to around 12% of the female population being single mothers.

Around 18% of women in the U.S.A. are on anti-depressants and that is not even counting all the the other mental health issues.

Add on top of this the aging demographic in U.S.A.

The average female in U.S.A. is 39.7 years old well past the age of fertility (after 35 is geriatric pregnancy).

This is a huge contrast to countries like Kosovo or Iran which have a very young population demographic.

You can see when you filter out women who are fat, single mothers, divorced, old, have mental health problems, etc you already eliminated probably 90% of the female population and I am not even considering if they are married or not.

And we haven't even talked about basic traits such as physical attractiveness, promiscuity, submissiveness, etc. By the time you add in these types of criteria you have basically eliminated 99% of women irrespective of whether they are married or not. Literally less than 1% of women in Anglosphere countries are wife material.

You and Scorpion must have a very low hurdle for what is considered to be a quality woman.