Christianity In The USA

[Samseau]

Well... let's just say that wasn't a true baptism.

You know, I was talking to my Bishop about this, and he said even though a proper baptism is a full immersion with triple dunks, he would still let this slide in the name of economia. Water + Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and provided the person didn't know any better, then he lets it slide. Not say all Bishops would let this slide but mine does.

 

[Samseau]

What is happening in America is a big purification of the Churches. Really only the most hardcore and zealous members are going to remain.

 

[budoslavic]

 

[Douglas Quaid]

So I'm starting to really agree with people warning about Evangelical churches. I go to one and the pastor today was talking about dispensationalism and how the Israelis are God's chosen people. Basically more Jew worship from cuckservatives. It puts me in a bad spot because I like a lot of other things about going to this church. I'm still relatively new to Christianity and nowhere near having a valid argument, but his emphasis on how wrong it is to think otherwise really got on my nerves.

I'm curious to hear what other people think about this topic. Their viewpoint has a lot to do with the Old Testament and God's promises to Abraham.

 

[Iakobos]

So I'm starting to really agree with people warning about Evangelical churches. I go to one and the pastor today was talking about dispensationalism and how the Israelis are God's chosen people. Basically more Jew worship from cuckservatives. It puts me in a bad spot because I like a lot of other things about going to this church. I'm still relatively new to Christianity and nowhere near having a valid argument, but his emphasis on how wrong it is to think otherwise really got on my nerves.

I'm curious to hear what other people think about this topic. Their viewpoint has a lot to do with the Old Testament and God's promises to Abraham.

It's really simple to debunk their viewpoint.

1) Israel of the Bible is not the same thing as the modern nation-state of Israel. Just because they're in the same geographic location and call themselves by the name Israel doesn't make them the same as Biblical Israel.

2) The Church is the true Israel of the Bible aka the true seed of Abraham. This is thoroughly supported by the New Testament. Relevant topic: https://christisking.cc/threads/proof-that-the-christian-church-is-the-true-israel.68/#post-2237

3) Christ specifically disavows the Jews who reject him, repeatedly, enraging them so much that they try to kill Him on the spot. In my post linked above you can see a few examples of parables. It doesn't get any more explicit than when he tells the Jews:

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

 

[Wutang]

How the elite changed its mind on Christianity

It's becoming more and more socially acceptable to be religious in elite intellectual spaces—which could impact how religion is perceived by everyone else.

reason.com

Religion became cool again among the educated elite once it gained an association with good aesthetics, high art, and sacred music—not Bush-era Republican soft theocracy.

Today, one can belong to the ideas-making class—an aspiring public intellectual or artist—and still be religious, so long as one steers clear of evangelical kitsch. Whether or not a real religious revival is underway in American public life, one thing is clear: The cool kids aren't the smug, strident atheists anymore—they're the Christians.

 

[Thomas More]

Trump recently said that he hopes to go to heaven, and that he hopes his peace efforts will help earn him a place in heaven. Many have responded to this by saying salvation comes by faith in Christ alone. Jack Posobiec has an interesting post about the different views of faith vs works.

When people talk about salvation in Christianity, it’s easy to assume that all Christians mean the same thing. But that’s not the case—different traditions have very different ways of explaining how someone “gets to heaven.”
In the Catholic and Orthodox churches, salvation has been understood for thousands of years as a partnership between faith and works. Faith is absolutely essential—you cannot earn heaven on your own. But at the same time, faith has to be lived out in real action. The Epistle of James says it pretty directly: “Faith without works is dead.” For Catholics and Orthodox, this means that believing in Christ isn’t enough unless it’s accompanied by love, service, and moral choices. Acts of charity, sacraments, peacemaking, and sacrifice are all seen as part of cooperating with God’s grace.
That’s why Donald Trump’s recent comment about 'ending wars and saving lives to get to heaven' actually fits quite naturally within that Christian way of thinking. In that worldview, working for peace and protecting life aren’t just good politics—they’re works of mercy that flow from faith and help prepare the soul for salvation.
By contrast, much of the modern Christian denominations—especially the evangelical forms—emphasize “faith alone” (sola fide). The idea is that no human action could ever add to Christ’s work on the cross, so the only requirement is trust in Him. Good works are still encouraged, of course, but they’re seen as the fruit of faith rather than a condition for salvation. From that perspective, Trump’s statement sounds odd, because salvation isn’t thought of as something you “work toward” with deeds. It’s already fully given through faith.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it like this: We're justified by faith, but works of love are the fruits of that justification.
Orthodox Christians echo this closely. They emphasize "theosis," or becoming more like God through a life of faith lived out in deeds.
Both sides are able to point to Scripture to back up their positions.What do you think?

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Trump recently said that he hopes to go to heaven, and that he hopes his peace efforts will help earn him a place in heaven. Many have responded to this by saying salvation comes by faith in Christ alone. Jack Posobiec has an interesting post about the different views of faith vs works.

I hope Trump makes it to heaven too. Not because he deserves it but because he needs it. For someone as flawed as Trump to be saved would be a great monument to God's grace and mercy and Christ's finished work on the cross.

Unfortunately, Trump is already living out Poso's theology: he's working to earn salvation and he doesn't ask God for forgiveness in faith, but rather seeks to right his wrongs by his own works. In other words, it is not about God saving Trump but Trump saving himself.

 

[analyst_green]

Poso is correct in that you cannot have true faith without works, because faith without works is dead. However, you can have works without faith and that is the danger.

We do not know what Trump's motivation is or his level of faith, only God knows this. But you are right that we cannot buy our way into heaven. If Trump sees salvation as some sort of balance sheet where you weigh your accounts payable against accounts receivable, that will only be to his detriment.

 

[NSOE]

My conclusion is different, but it's been debated here many times. My thoughts on this:

Unfortunately, Trump is already living out Poso's theology: he's working to earn salvation and he doesn't ask God for forgiveness in faith, but rather seeks to right his wrongs by his own works.

This is between God and him, no way of knowing for anybody else. Nobody can see your true faith.
To my knowledge, Trump believes in Jesus Christ, his Savior. Trumps works don't negate this.
What else is required for salvation according to the Sola Fide principle- a loud verbal confession that faith by itself is enough to save a man?

Doing the works =/= there is no faith; we don't get to Heave based on whether we staunchly maintain that faith alone saves us.

God knows our hearts best. He can see how strong a man's faith is- Peter's faith in Jesus' power wavered, he didn't have enough to walk the distance on water, even though he believed Jesus was the son of God.

Most people here would agree that not doing good works is a sin, to repent of it equals getting on with them. Repenting on your death bed may not cut it.

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Trump would describe himself as 'Other Christian' here.

The Catholic position is that Jesus has saved humanity, but before his time nobody- neither the wicked nor the good, who were stuck in Limbo, could enter heaven, including Moses and Elijah who appeared with Jesus during the Transfiguration.

After the Resurrection, those who have tho good works will, while those who have none, or whose works have been bad won't:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

In Matthew 6, Jesus talks about the importance of storing up treasures in heaven during one's lifetime, and it doesn't look like it's only about the hierarchy of those holy souls.

You won't be forgiven, unless you forgive, this alone suggests you have to earn your admission. Not everyone may see it that way, but
unforgiveness is not a denial of the faith in Jesus:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus emphasizes the work of serving one another, even those we consider beneath us. There are different instances where Jesus explains how believers ought to conduct temselves, he performed the work of washing their feet.

Why tell anybody how to act then, a master could just sit back, and jeopardizing his heavenly abode wouldn't cross his mind, while his disciples attended to his needs.

Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry (...) and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life

 

[Blade Runner]

My conclusion is different, but it's been debated here many times. My thoughts on this:



This is between God and him, no way of knowing for anybody else. Nobody can see your true faith.
To my knowledge, Trump believes in Jesus Christ, his Savior. Trumps works don't negate this.
What else is required for salvation according to the Sola Fide principle- a loud verbal confession that faith by itself is enough to save a man?

Doing the works =/= there is no faith; we don't get to Heave based on whether we staunchly maintain that faith alone saves us.

God knows our hearts best. He can see how strong a man's faith is- Peter's faith in Jesus' power wavered, he didn't have enough to walk the distance on water, even though he believed Jesus was the son of God.

Most people here would agree that not doing good works is a sin, to repent of it equals getting on with them. Repenting on your death bed may not cut it.

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Trump would describe himself as 'Other Christian' here.

The Catholic position is that Jesus has saved humanity, but before his time nobody- neither the wicked nor the good, who were stuck in Limbo, could enter heaven, including Moses and Elijah who appeared with Jesus during the Transfiguration.

After the Resurrection, those who have tho good works will, while those who have none, or whose works have been bad won't:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

In Matthew 6, Jesus talks about the importance of storing up treasures in heaven during one's lifetime, and it doesn't look like it's only about the hierarchy of those holy souls.

You won't be forgiven, unless you forgive, this alone suggests you have to earn your admission. Not everyone may see it that way, but
unforgiveness is not a denial of the faith in Jesus:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus emphasizes the work of serving one another, even those we consider beneath us. There are different instances where Jesus explains how believers ought to conduct temselves, he performed the work of washing their feet.

Why tell anybody how to act then, a master could just sit back, and jeopardizing his heavenly abode wouldn't cross his mind, while his disciples attended to his needs.

Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry (...) and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life

I'm glad you made this nice response. So as not to derail another thread, I didn't post on the "Parable of the Last Judgment"

How you read that and think that "works don't matter" is beyond me. Also, one ignoring that "He will render to each man, according to his works" is at best, weird.

One of the other mysteries that is also implied in the Parable of the Last Judgment, which is the Orthodox position, is that we are saved as communities, or rather, as the people of God/His assembly. Not as singular people or an island unto ourselves. He doesn't ask, "Did you believe in me?" whatever that means, which is why I always stress that belief is actually faithfulness to Him. And doing things in life proves that you are faithful. Sometimes, of course, that includes not doing things.

By the way, there is also a proof to this, otherwise it gets to gnosticism, another great point of why modernity generally speaking, with these ideas of mental assent, is hogwash. Christ gave tasks frequently for people to do something, and it wasn't just some magical scam or tactic to immediately get something, or game God. That's why when they are faithful to Him, they are said to have been healed while they were going their way, walking to where he told them going to the priests to present themselves, for example. For this reason, it also makes sense that the proper translation in most cases is in fact that faith is faithfulness, just like when "save" is translated as "made you well."

"Your faith has made you well." It has saved you, protected you, healed you.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

This is between God and him, no way of knowing for anybody else. Nobody can see your true faith.
To my knowledge, Trump believes in Jesus Christ, his Savior. Trumps works don't negate this.

Trump has stated on public record that he doesn't ask God for forgiveness. He "doesn't bring God into that picture." But that he tries to live his life so he doesn't have to ask for forgiveness. Catholic or Protestant, you have to admit the statement is concerning: https://www.c-span.org/clip/campaign-2016/user-clip-have-you-ever-asked-god-for-forgiveness/4619501

What else is required for salvation according to the Sola Fide principle- a loud verbal confession that faith by itself is enough to save a man?

The only thing that's required for your salvation according to Sola Fide is that Christ atone for your sins and you receive His forgiveness by faith. Doing good works is not the issue. Trusting that your works makes you righteous over trusting in Christ's forgiveness is where you are in peril. Trump seems to be operating off of the idea that good works will make him righteous and he will earn heaven that way. He doesn't seem to believe that he is righteous on account of Christ's forgiveness and that God will give heaven to him out of grace.

As Paul says, the goal is not to have a righteousness of our own, but the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ.

 

[NSOE]

Trump has stated on public record that he doesn't ask God for forgiveness. He "doesn't bring God into that picture." But that he tries to live his life so he doesn't have to ask for forgiveness. Catholic or Protestant, you have to admit the statement is concerning:

I didn't know that, again I don't know if he still persists in that state.

Through the Catholic lens, while he's accomplished various works of faith before his time is up, all of it will be to his credit, when he hopefully asks for forgiveness (which God can grant in an instant) before he dies, while the time for works would have otherwise run out by then.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

How you read that and think that "works don't matter" is beyond me. Also, one ignoring that "He will render to each man, according to his works" is at best, weird.

Since your post is a veiled attack on the Gospel, I'll go through some of your points to show what it is you're misunderstanding.

which is the Orthodox position, is that we are saved as communities, or rather, as the people of God/His assembly. Not as singular people or an island unto ourselves. He doesn't ask, "Did you believe in me?" whatever that means,

This is a good example of a false dichotomy: that we are either saved as individuals or we are saved as a community. The Biblical truth is both/and. We are both saved individually and corporately. God relates to the Church as a whole and He relates to each one of us personally.

And doing things in life proves that you are faithful

Romans 10:5 describes this as a law-based righteousness: "For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of law: “THE MAN WHO DOES THESE THINGS SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

The faith-based righteousness is not about doing things in an attempt to prove to God that you are faithful. Romans 10:6-10 makes this distinction: "But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way... that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, leading to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, leading to salvation.

By the way, there is also a proof to this, otherwise it gets to gnosticism, another great point of why modernity generally speaking, with these ideas of mental assent, is hogwash.

In all my years of hearing the Gospel preached, I've heard heard faith described in this reductionistic way of "mental assent." The only people I hear speak this way are people who straw-man the Reformed position in order to brainwash and gatekeep their followers.

For this reason, it also makes sense that the proper translation in most cases is in fact that faith is faithfulness

The reason it isn't translated this way is because it has been proven to be grammatically false.

 

[Blade Runner]

Since your post is a veiled attack on the Gospel

Now I'm "attacking the Gospel". Defending it and understanding it is hardly attacking it. That's a clown take, just an emotional dig by you.

This is a good example of a false dichotomy: that we are either saved as individuals or we are saved as a community. The Biblical truth is both/and. We are both saved individually and corporately. God relates to the Church as a whole and He relates to each one of us personally.

Our whole experience as Orthodox is the both/and. You focus on individual salvation. Cut the crap.

In all my years of hearing the Gospel preached, I've heard heard faith described in this reductionistic way of "mental assent." The only people I hear speak this way are people who straw-man the Reformed position in order to brainwash and gatekeep their followers.

"I was saved on X date, 1973". Come on, you can't even be honest about what happens commonly in protestantism.

The reason it isn't translated this way is because it has been proven to be grammatically false.

No, translators in English bring their hermeneutic (protestant), so you are incorrect yet again, as far as what is the best translation, which is the point. You focus on the mental part and deny the "and" part you appeal to above, which is the faith is actually you proving it, meaning with action. As is obvious to any person that lives in this world, not just me saying so on the internet.

The faith-based righteousness is not about doing things in an attempt to prove to God that you are faithful. Romans 10:6-10 makes this distinction: "But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way... that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, leading to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, leading to salvation.

Finally, confess and believe are present tense, meaning you will do them continually, meaning they are part of your choosing and acting. The saving is future tense, which means you are looking forward to judgment. The faith is that God will keep his promises, so you will keep believing, confessing, doing, repenting, all of it. If you do these thing are you "proving" something to God in the way that you are trying to do some gotcha? No. Are you proving yourself though? Of course. Just like anything else you do in life that is an exercise in fulfilling a purpose, task, accomplishment, etc. You're doing it because you trust him, and He has revealed to all that one ought to do certain things. That's the point.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Our whole experience as Orthodox is the both/and. You focus on individual salvation. Cut the crap.

Clearly not. Your own post said "we are not saved as singular persons." You are the one stuck in this false either/or thinking. Quit projecting it onto others.

"I was saved on X date, 1973". Come on, you can't even be honest about what happens commonly in protestantism.

You're both tipping your hand here and dodging my original point. If you want to know what Protestants mean by faith, they mean "trust in Christ." They don't mean "mental assent" as you slanderously accuse them of. You can find teaching upon teaching from Protestants on how faith is not just "mental assent."

What you really hate is the idea that Protestants are already saved right now. Hence, I said you are attacking the Gospel. We are saved, being saved, will be saved.

No, translators in English bring their hermeneutic (protestant), so you are incorrect yet again, as far as what is the best translation, which is the point.

It's not translated "faithfulness" because it would be grammatically incorrect given the context. No Bible translation translates it that way, not even the Orthodox Study Bible. This is you wanting to translate the Bible according to your theology.

Finally, confess and believe are present tense, meaning you will do them continually, meaning they are part of your choosing and acting. The saving is future tense, which means you are looking forward to judgment. The faith is that God will keep his promises, so you will keep believing, confessing, doing, repenting, all of it. If you do these thing are you "proving" something to God in the way that you are trying to do some gotcha? No. Are you proving yourself though? Of course.

None of this has anything to do with Romans 10. Where do you see the concept of proving yourself to God with actions in Romans 10? The whole book of Romans is about how God doesn't need to see works to declare you righteous on account of faith.

 

[Blade Runner]

Your own post said "we are not saved as singular persons."

And that is correct, also accurate.

You can find teaching upon teaching from Protestants on how faith is not just "mental assent."

The issue is that the way people live this out proves that it's a bad teaching.

What you really hate is the idea that Protestants are already saved right now.

You go on to give the Orthodox point of view. Why would I hate anyone being saved? Of course I don't. Just like it's absurd and slanderous for you to say that I am against the Gospel. Just stupid stuff.

They aren't saved "right now" in terms of the way we use the english language, or language at all, in attracting people to the faith. The judgment is what determines your "salvation" - in the way you all use the term. If you don't use it that way, you already agree with the Orthodox position. Great.

is about how God doesn't need to see works to declare you righteous on account of faith.

Romans is about many things, but certainly it is about Abraham, who was accounted righteous because of what he did (listened to God and acted). He didn't just stay in Ur and say, "yeah, I gotcha God"

He actually did what he told him to do.

Again, cut the crap.

 

[Острог]

You know, I was talking to my Bishop about this, and he said even though a proper baptism is a full immersion with triple dunks, he would still let this slide in the name of economia. Water + Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and provided the person didn't know any better, then he lets it slide. Not say all Bishops would let this slide but mine does.

And then Fr. Heers is attacked for being a "legalist" by insisting on baptism. Every person can and should be properly baptized if only he can physically step into the baptismal font. There are no gains by doing otherwise but many possible losses.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

They aren't saved "right now" in terms of the way we use the english language, or language at all, in attracting people to the faith. The judgment is what determines your "salvation" - in the way you all use the term. If you don't use it that way, you already agree with the Orthodox position. Great.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not of works, so that no one may boast.

Maybe you're not because you're stuck working for it, but Protestants are already saved right now.

Romans is about many things, but certainly it is about Abraham, who was accounted righteous because of what he did (listened to God and acted)

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about—but not before God! 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 The one who works, his wage is not counted according to grace, but according to what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes upon Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

Abraham was accounted as righteous because He believed in God. His acting came later as a result of faith. If your theology causes you to contradict the Bible, you need to get a new theology.

 

[Blade Runner]

Abraham was accounted as righteous because He believed in God. His acting came later as a result of faith. If your theology causes you to contradict the Bible, you need to get a new theology.

You separate this in your explanation of theology. That is the point. As I said, since "believing" is the key, the way most people then behave (the most important part of life is action, not what you "believe," this is just basic understanding of life and people's delusion and BS) is then trying to game the system in a gnostic way: "I believe, yes I do, I'm good." My emphasis is warning against this because of human (fallen) reaction and nature.

I'm not mad at you, I just correct certain things. But I will say, I find it fairly ridiculous for you to claim I "attack the Gospel."

You should never say anything like that.