Christianity In The USA

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I'm not mad at you, I just correct certain things. But I will say, I find it fairly ridiculous for you to claim I "attack the Gospel."

You should never say anything like that.

If you say that well meaning Christians aren't saved even if they're placing all their trust in Christ, then I'm going to call it for what it is.

Justification by Faith Alone is not meant to lull you into inaction. I grant to you that there are false believers and nominal Christians who treat it like fire insurance, but that's not what I'm talking about here. Misuse is not an argument against proper use. Read the primary sources. None of the Reformers thought of it that way and even cautioned against it. And I do agree that Antinomians take on a gnostic flavor, but it isn't correct or fair to impugn all Protestants as that, especially when it was the Protestants who contended against the Antinomians.

Protestants, the real ones, not the fake ones, believe that faith produces good works. The stressor is upon faith because we do not believe that you can do good works apart from faith. We work from a place of salvation, not work to get salvation.

 

[WaveMechanic]

"I believe, yes I do, I'm good." My emphasis is warning against this because of human (fallen) reaction and nature.

***It looks like GodfatherPartTwo beat me to the punch, and posted something similar, but far more eloquent than me. However, I will still share my reply***

I can only speak of my own experiences, but I grew up in the United States where most people were raised in Protestant homes.

I do not believe it is common for someone to express such a belief. We all know we are sinners, and that the wages of sin is death. That is the antithesis of good.

We know salvation is a gift from God, and that it has not been earned.

With that said, I believe most Protestants still strive to live their lives in a way which would please God. They fail, but continue to fight, and try to do better.

They do this not because they believe their works will save them, but because they want to please God. God saved them, and now they have been gifted a new heart. The Holy Spirit dwells within them, and convicts them of their sins so that they will turn away from sin, and repent.

The change in behavior is an effect of being saved, not what causes them to be saved.

 

[Matsufubu]

That's how I took James 2: 14-26. That being born again with the Holy Spirit changes your works, because if not then how are you really born again? Your works may get you a higher seat in heaven, but salvation is in faith in Christ alone. Also see Galatians 2:16, John 3:36, John 6:29, John 6:47, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5. Otherwise, we might as well be Jehovahs Witnesses.

 

[Blade Runner]

If you say that well meaning Christians aren't saved

There's a whole of lot of assumptions in there, that may or may not matter, and a ton of speculation. Again, since I believe in trusting in God, and also the have been/am being/will be saved (that's in our theology) idea, it of course then depends on what we are talking about. If you agree with us, then why keep bickering about it?

Protestants, the real ones, not the fake ones, believe that faith produces good works.

So do Orthodox.

One of the things I've been trying to convey to you (this proves it but you'll still make an argument out of it, I perceive) is that "faith" meaning a belief that for example, "there is a God" or "Yes, Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords" doesn't at all necessarily produce good works. On the other hand (and my elbow from the top rope), faithfulness without a doubt is in fact in line with good works, by definition; that's what it is. Point proven. Accept it or not, that's the reality.

@Matsufubu that's why in James he talks about the demons knowing Jesus Christ is Lord, BUT ... see my point?

 

[analyst_green]

There's a whole of lot of assumptions in there, that may or may not matter, and a ton of speculation. Again, since I believe in trusting in God, and also the have been/am being/will be saved (that's in our theology) idea, it of course then depends on what we are talking about. If you agree with us, then why keep bickering about it?

So do Orthodox.

One of the things I've been trying to convey to you (this proves it but you'll still make an argument out of it, I perceive) is that "faith" meaning a belief that for example, "there is a God" or "Yes, Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords" doesn't at all necessarily produce good works. On the other hand (and my elbow from the top rope), faithfulness without a doubt is in fact in line with good works, by definition; that's what it is. Point proven. Accept it or not, that's the reality.

@Matsufubu that's why in James he talks about the demons knowing Jesus Christ is Lord, BUT ... see my point?

The Protestant theology never made sense to me because you can make a completely genuine proclamation of Faith today and completely trust God. But then tomorrow you can fall away and go back to sinning. And if the day of your death finds you in that state, well, how is your salvation guaranteed at all? That's exactly why faithfulness is crucial.

We are in the process of being saved when we trust in Christ, but it's very dangerous to think that we have already been saved when we do not know what the future holds. Many have fallen into deception and lost their souls on account of it. Arguably Judas had faith in Christ at some point in time, but he did not make it. Even the Saints had doubts about whether they would be saved or not on the last day. So the safest course of action is to always stay humble and think of ourselves as sinners who need Christ to save us.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

One of the things I've been trying to convey to you (this proves it but you'll still make an argument out of it, I perceive) is that "faith" meaning a belief that for example, "there is a God" or "Yes, Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords" doesn't at all necessarily produce good works. On the other hand (and my elbow from the top rope), faithfulness without a doubt is in fact in line with good works, by definition; that's what it is. Point proven. Accept it or not, that's the reality.

We don't mean by "faith" what you mean by it. We have a deeper, covenantal understanding of what faith means. For us, faith means "trust in Christ." It isn't a mere mental assent to a set of propositions and facts about Christ. It's a covenantal trust that Jesus lived and died for us, and that by doing so, we have been justified by His sacrifice. We believe that this kind of faith does necessarily inspire us to do good works, because the Holy Spirit is at work in us through all of this.

 

[Blade Runner]

Arguably Judas had faith in Christ at some point in time, but he did not make it.

Yes, they need a retrospectoscope to explain this away. Of course, it doesn't work.

We don't mean by "faith" what you mean by it. We have a deeper, covenantal understanding of what faith means. For us, faith means "trust in Christ." It isn't a mere mental assent to a set of propositions and facts about Christ.

Oh, sounds like you have the Orthodox position. Good.

Why you keep arguing and saying I, as an Orthodox Christian, attack the gospel (veiled is what you said, as though I'm some insidious person or sly trickster) is beyond me.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

The Protestant theology never made sense to me because you can make a completely genuine proclamation of Faith today and completely trust God. But then tomorrow you can fall away and go back to sinning. And if the day of your death finds you in that state, well, how is your salvation guaranteed at all? That's exactly why faithfulness is crucial.

This would more of a critique of Catholic theology than Protestant theology. We don't believe that you go in and out of states of grace. We believe that those whom God justified, He will also glorify (divinize). And so our assurance and confidence is not in ourselves, but is in God who began a good work in us. We believe that He who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. For us, it is not humility to doubt our salvation, it's a lack of faith in God to save us. Our humility is knowing that we could never save ourselves and that we need Jesus to be our Savior.

 

[Blade Runner]

I think I can leave this topic by posting quotes from St. Maximos the Confessor, who if you study his life and read his works, you will certainly be aware that none of us are even close to his holiness and indeed, what he suffered.

He said:

Theology without practice is the theology of demons

and

“Do not say that faith in Christ alone can save you, for this is not possible if you do not attain love for Him, which is demonstrated by deeds. As for mere faith: “The demons also believe and tremble” (James, 2:19). The action of love consists in heartfelt good deeds toward one’s neighbor, magnanimity, patience, and sober use of things.”

I rest my case.

 

[Northern Pilgrim]

This would more of a critique of Catholic theology than Protestant theology. We don't believe that you go in and out of states of grace. We believe that those whom God justified, He will also glorify (divinize). And so our assurance and confidence is not in ourselves, but is in God who began a good work in us. We believe that He who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. For us, it is not humility to doubt our salvation, it's a lack of faith in God to save us. Our humility is knowing that we could never save ourselves and that we need Jesus to be our Savior.

It seems to me you are pushing "once saved, always saved" and Calvinist doctrine, which not all Protestants believe.
Part of the problem in the current day, mainstream, Protestant churches is that they view "being saved" as a one time event, saying a prayer and "accepting Jesus as your Savior", where if you look at repentance it is not just a one time thing, it is aligning your will to God's time and again.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

It seems to me you are pushing "once saved, always saved" and Calvinist doctrine, which not all Protestants believe.
Part of the problem in the current day, mainstream, Protestant churches is that they view "being saved" as a one time event, saying a prayer and "accepting Jesus as your Savior", where if you look at repentance it is not just a one time thing, it is aligning your will to God's time and again.

What kind of Protestant are you? It's not the same kind as the Pilgrims. OSAS is not a strictly Calvinist doctrine. Non-Calvinists believe in it as well.

Protestant churches, to be more precise, view Justification as a one time act in accordance with Romans, not an ongoing process. God declares you righteous on account of faith. The Scripture never speaks of "rejustification" and even rules out the idea that someone could be restored to repentance if they reject the Gospel in Hebrews. 1 John teaching that people who apostatize never really belonged to the church to begin with is also worth mentioning here.

The ongoing process in Scripture is Sanctification, not Justification. Justification is where we can say we are already saved. Sanctification is where we say that we are being saved. Glorification is why we say that we will be saved.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I think I can leave this topic by posting quotes from St. Maximos the Confessor, who if you study his life and read his works, you will certainly be aware that none of us are even close to his holiness and indeed, what he suffered.

He said:


and


I rest my case.

What is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.

(John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, 7.27.)

 

[Blade Runner]

What is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.

(John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, 7.27.)

I highly doubt these two Saints would "disagree" in the way you are picking that Chrysostom line out. But remember, the "works of the law" for St. Paul are the pharisaical traditions, not doing good works and certainly not talking about what Basil says in his liturgy, which is in the gospel as well, "and He will render to each man, according to his works". (Romans 2:6, Matthew 16:27, 2 Tim 4)

Houston, you have a problem.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I highly doubt these two Saints would "disagree" in the way you are picking that Chrysostom line out. But remember, the "works of the law" for St. Paul are the pharisaical traditions, not doing good works and certainly not talking about what Basil says in his liturgy, which is in the gospel as well, "and He will render to each man, according to his works". (Romans 2:6, Matthew 16:27, 2 Tim 4)

Houston, you have a problem.

The "works of the Law" are the only works which God considers good, and even then, Justification is not by doing them but by faith in Christ. God will render to each man according to their works. Justification by Faith alone is not opposed to that statement.

 

[Aboulia]

The crux of this argument is whether you can separate works from faith. Perhaps you should explore that instead.

A bricklayer lays bricks. A lawyer works with law/regulations. A manager manages people/things. A Christian is one who attempts to follow Christ, not that they're necessarily any good at it, but if they turn out to be a Judas, (correct me if I'm wrong) Calvinism would say they were never saved in the first place. Which seems to introduce an unnecessary legalism to OSAS doctrine and also has lead to the idea that you can separate beliefs from your actions in the world. How do you figure out what a woman believes? By words or actions?

Here's from the ROCOR prayer book (morning prayers)

O my plenteously merciful and all merciful God, Lord Jesus Christ, through Thy great love Thou didst come down and become incarnate so that Thou mightest save all. And again, O Saviour. save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty; yea, Thou Who art great in compassion and ineffable in mercy. For he that believeth in Me, Thou hast said, O my Christ, shall live and never see death. If, then, faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold, I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou wilt find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works, may it answer for, may it acquit me, may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory. And let Satan not seize me and boast, O Word, that he hath torn me from Thy hand and fold. But whether I desire it or not, save me, O Christ my Saviour, forestall me quickly, for I perish. Thou art my God from my mother’s womb. Vouchsafe me, O Lord, to love Thee now as fervently as I once loved sin itself, and also to work for Thee without idleness, diligently, as I worked before for deceptive Satan. But supremely shall I work for Thee, my Lord and God, Jesus Christ, all the days of my life, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

If you find a problem with that @GodfatherPartTwo it's on your end

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

The crux of this argument is whether you can separate works from faith. Perhaps you should explore that instead.

I believe in one sense you can and in another you can't.

For example, in James 2:24, faith and works are connected, distinct but not separated: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

But then you have Romans 4:5, where faith and works are not only distinct, but are separated: "But to the one who does not work, but believes upon Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."

The word "justification" is not always used in the same exact way every time, especially by different authors who use different "theological language." One should look at the context to see how each author is defining their own terms.

The Protestant perspective believes in both. We don't believe that we have to pit James against Paul. Justification (according to the way Paul uses it) is by faith alone, not by works. But Sanctification (what James means by justification) does indeed consist in faith and works. This is why we consider it necessary to recognize the distinction between Justification and Sanctification, otherwise we fall into a false dichotomy and fall short of the Bible's full testimony.

A Christian is one who attempts to follow Christ, not that they're necessarily any good at it, but if they turn out to be a Judas, (correct me if I'm wrong) Calvinism would say they were never saved in the first place. Which seems to introduce an unnecessary legalism to OSAS doctrine and also has lead to the idea that you can separate beliefs from your actions in the world.

I would agree that OSAS has a legal, rather a covenantal layer to it. But I wouldn't call that "legalism." For us, legalism means strict adherence to rules viz. works-based salvation. OSAS is based on God's grace, not adherence to law.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Here's from the ROCOR prayer book (morning prayers)

O my plenteously merciful and all merciful God, Lord Jesus Christ, through Thy great love Thou didst come down and become incarnate so that Thou mightest save all. And again, O Saviour. save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty; yea, Thou Who art great in compassion and ineffable in mercy. For he that believeth in Me, Thou hast said, O my Christ, shall live and never see death. If, then, faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold, I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou wilt find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works, may it answer for, may it acquit me, may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory. And let Satan not seize me and boast, O Word, that he hath torn me from Thy hand and fold. But whether I desire it or not, save me, O Christ my Saviour, forestall me quickly, for I perish. Thou art my God from my mother’s womb. Vouchsafe me, O Lord, to love Thee now as fervently as I once loved sin itself, and also to work for Thee without idleness, diligently, as I worked before for deceptive Satan. But supremely shall I work for Thee, my Lord and God, Jesus Christ, all the days of my life, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

If you find a problem with that @GodfatherPartTwo it's on your end

That's an excellent prayer.

 

[tikkasakko]

America (all western countries) need Orthodoxy, or they will continue to spiral into madness.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

America (all western countries) need Orthodoxy, or they will continue to spiral into madness.

America (and all other nations) needs Jesus Christ, or they will continue to spiral into madness.

 

[Northern Pilgrim]

What kind of Protestant are you? It's not the same kind as the Pilgrims. OSAS is not a strictly Calvinist doctrine. Non-Calvinists believe in it as well.

Who said pilgrim has anything to do with the group that sailed on the Mayflower? I'm sure you've heard of both John Bunyan & John Wayne?

Obviously, OSAS is not just used by Calvinists, but it is kind of an essential doctrine there. My main point is that no one can speak for what all Protestants believe because of the decentralized, grassroots nature of everything south of the 95 theses. A copy of a copy of a copy does not in fact bring anyone closer to the original/source.

The thread is about Christianity in the USA, and the vast majority identify as some form of Protestant, but what essential doctrines must one hold to be considered 'Protestant'? It seems to be more defined by what it is not, or what it is against, than actually having an identity of its own. Ask 10 mainstream American Christians what it means to be a Christian and you'll get 10 different answers.