Catholicism: Criticism & Debate Thread

Not trying to point any fingers, but I suspect this "rootlessness" is a remnant of our sinful past. It seems that the PUA days and the excessive semen loss through self-abuse and fornication during this time left many of us with some form of permanent brain damage or mental disease. I noticed this in myself too - for a long time I used to despise my own heritage and family and thought my own background "sucked". Grass always appeared greener on the other side. It's an illusion, like a Fata Morgana.

Before RVF 2.0, people used to search for exotic hookups in foreign countries. Now, many want to convert (or already have converted) to a religion like Orthodoxy that is exotic to our ancestors because they secretly desire to marry a devout slavic wife from ROCOR church, or go wife-hunting in some remote Eastern European village. Slavs may be Christians, but they are genetically and culturally different from Germanics, more mongoiloid or Asian shifted. Not as bad as taking a Buddhist Thai wife, but still...

It's basically a milder version of the same mental disease that causes European leftifts to promote "anti-racism" and "open border"-policies for their home countries. After years of unhinged sexual sinning and accompanying insanity, men suddenly find that all they really want is Love and Peace, do Yoga and convert to fancy Buddhism. Some become Anime fans who seek to race-mix with a cute girl from Asia. Other westerners say "our women are useless; Polish and Russian women are more traditional/better", convert to Orthodoxy and basically abandon their own women. Shame on us, we should stay faithful to our sisters and defend them. They belong to us no matter what - not to the muslim and African men invading our home countries! Also, it would not be fair for us to steal women from Polish and Russian men.

Now what would be the best solution to stop Europe's downfall? Sure it has to be returning to Christianity in general, but I'm not sure about Orthodoxy as it's foreign to NW Europe. Stick to your roots and take an example from the way your ancestors used to live. If all your known ancestors were Protestants, you would be a "traitor" for switching to Orthodoxy.​
You were spot on about the harms of excessive ejaculation, but the rest of your post is entirely misleading. Slavs are not mongoloid, I don't know where you're getting this garbage from as no genetic studies have ever found significant Asiatic influence in Slavs. Sure there may have been some very small amount of mixing with groups like Tatars, but that's also true of Scandinavian Germanics mixing with Sami.

You're also forgetting the main point of religion. It's to seek the truth, regardless of any national or ethnic affiliation. The Kingdom of God is forever, but your ethnicity will end when this life ends and it will be irrelevant in the Kingdom of God. Orthodoxy quite simply contains that truth and that's why westerners are converting.
 
On another note, I completely disagree with Samseau on the necessity of conversion. If you discover the truth, you are obliged to follow that truth. God is truth, and to abandon truth is to abandon God. If you willingly and knowingly continue to take part in heretical groups who teach lies about Christ and His Church, this is absolutely an abandonment of Christ and His body (the Church).

This is false and easily contradicted by many historical accounts. For example, St. Olga (mother of St. Vlad) returned from Constantinople baptized, and yet no one in Rus believed in Christ, including Olga's own son. It would take another generation, before her grandson, became interested in Christ and would eventually convert later in life after his 5th wife was a Byzantine Empress.

The idea that one cannot, or should not, engage in long-sufferings for their Neighbors and plainly contradicted by scripture, the Saints, and history.

Now, is this sort of thing for everyone? Of course not, which is why I said it varies on a individual basis. To deny the individual aspect of people's faith is to deny the mystery and all-awesome power of God. We can only marvel at His works.

It is true, that for most, Orthodox evangelism is not a valid path. Probably 80-90% of those exposed to Orthodoxy are best served by total conversion and attendance to an Orthodox place of worship. However, there will be many, for all sorts of reasons (such as lack of access to an Orthodox parish, or to keep one's family intact, or because they are influential within their own heterodox parish) that will involve them trying to save their Neighbors instead of merely leaving them.

Remember, was the Samaritan any less of a Neighbor despite the fact he was not a Jew?

To my knowledge, every single canonized Orthodox saint agrees with me on these points. We can never, in good conscience, encourage someone to stay with the heretics--even if there was a chance that these heretical groups could come closer to the truth by his or her staying. The ends do not justify the means. Moreover, the idea that these people can "stay and fight", or "stay and change things for the better", especially makes no sense in the context of Roman Catholicism where it's the pope's right and authority to change/decree/innovate/"develop" whatever he wants. A random guy sitting in the pews is not going to be able to influence his priest, his bishop, or his pope. There's nothing to fight for, since nothing is in his power or authority within the RC system. This is the same for protestants as well, where basically the only solution would be to start your own new protestant sect.

There are plenty of Saints who disagree with you. Right from http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/pomaz_status.aspx :

"Therefore it is quite natural to affirm that these religious organizations are societies which are "near," or "next to," or " close to," or perhaps even" adjoining" the Church, but sometimes " against" it; but they are all "outside" the one Church of Christ. Some of them have cut themselves off, others have gone far away. Some, in going away, all the same have historical ties of blood with her; others have lost all kinship, and in them the very spirit and foundations of Christianity have been distorted. None of them find themselves under the activity of the grace which is present in the Church, and especially the grace which is given in the Mysteries of the Church. They are not nourished by that mystical table which leads up along the steps of moral perfection."

The above is the position I have argued for in this thread. Is the position I have been taught by my Bishop. Now let's quote a Saint or two:


St. Seraphim

"The word “heretic” (as we say in our article on Fr. Dimitry Dudko) is indeed used too frequently nowadays. It has a definite meaning and function, to distinguish new teachings from the Orthodox teaching; but few of the non-Orthodox Christians today are consciously “heretics,” and it really does no good to call them that.

In the end, I think, Fr. Dimitry Dudko’s attitude is the correct one: We should view the non-Orthodox as people to whom Orthodoxy has not yet been revealed, as people who are potentially Orthodox (if only we ourselves would give them a better example!). There is no reason why we cannot call them Christians and be on good terms with them, recognize that we have at least our faith in Christ in common, and live in peace especially with our own families. St. Innocent’s attitude to the Roman Catholics in California is a good example for us. A harsh, polemical attitude is called for only when the non-Orthodox are trying to take away our flocks or change our teaching.…

As for prejudices—these belong to people, not the Church. Orthodoxy does not require you to accept any prejudices or opinions about other races, nations, etc."

St. Silouan the Athonite


I remember a conversation he had with a certain Archimandrite who was engaged in missionary work. This Archimandrite thought highly of the Staretz and many a time went to see him during his visits to the Holy Mountain. The Staretz asked him what sort of sermons he preached to people. The Archimandrite, who was still young and inexperienced gesticulated with his hands and swayed his whole body, and replied excitedly, ‘I tell them, Your faith is all wrong, perverted. There is nothing right, and if you don’t repent, there will be no salvation for you.’

The Staretz heard him out, then asked, ‘Tell me, Father Archimandrite, do they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the true God?’

‘Yes, that they do believe.’

‘And do they revere the Mother of God?’

‘Yes, but they are not taught properly about her.’

‘And what of the Saints?’

‘Yes, they honour them but since they have fallen away from the Church, what saints can they have?’

‘Do they celebrate the Divine Office in their churches? Do they read the Gospels?’

‘Yes, they do have churches and services but if you were to compare their services with ours—how cold and lifeless theirs are!’

‘Father Archimandrite, people feel in their souls when they are doing the proper thing, believing in Jesus Christ, revering the Mother of God and the Saints, whom they call upon in prayer, so if you condemn their faith they will not listen to you ... But if you were to confirm that they were doing well to believe in God and honour the Mother of God and the Saints; that they are right to go to church, and say their prayers at home, read the Divine word, and so on; and then gently point out their mistakes and show them what they ought to amend, then they would listen to you, and the Lord would rejoice over them. And this way by God’s mercy we shall all find salvation ... God is love, and therefore the preaching of His word must always proceed from love. Then both preacher and listener will profit. But if you do nothing but condemn, the soul of the people will not heed you, and no good will come of it.’


Notice the part I bolded above - "that they are right to go to Church." Silouan didn't say they needed to come to our Church, but that they are right to go to Church, which would be the Church they knew - Catholic or Protestant.

Now, if you're the pope, and you discover the truth of Orthodoxy, then by all means please stay in Rome and change things. But if you're a man in Alabama wanting to discover and live the full truth of Christ, then it's time to find an Orthodox Church and to join yourself to the true Body of Christ, from which flow blood (the Eucharist) and water (holy baptism).

As we say in the Creed at every Divine Liturgy: I believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I do not believe in many different churches, but that there is only one Church founded by Christ. Nor can I believe that the Roman Catholic sect is the same church as the Orthodox Church. This is flat out heresy.

As I've said before - if they can improve their churches they should improve their churches with the true teachings of Orthodoxy; if they cannot or find it brings them spiritual detriment, they should come home to a true Church and worship with other Orthodox. No two paths to God are the same, and to deny this is to deny the awesome power and ineffable mysteries of God.

For most, it probably means leaving their church, but for others, they may be able to find a way to improve their home church - Glory to God.


Everything said above from the Saints, or I (which is through my Bishop), ultimately stems from two parts of scripture:

1. The Parable of the Good Samaritan
2. "Those who are not against us are for us" Mark 9:38-41

38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

Those who are not part of the Apostolic tradition are to be tolerated and not stopped, even if they have heresies. For that is the command of the Christ.

The historical record shows that these heterodox actually prepare the way for the Orthodox; we must be patient and marvel in God's glory and ultimate plans.
 
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Now what would be the best solution to stop Europe's downfall? Sure it has to be returning to Christianity in general, but I'm not sure about Orthodoxy as it's foreign to NW Europe. Stick to your roots and take an example from the way your ancestors used to live. If all your known ancestors were Protestants, you would be a "traitor" for switching to Orthodoxy.​

Why not be pagan then? That's more native European than any branch of Christianity if we're talking roots. Christianity is a foreign importation to Europe.
 
I am seeing a lot of argument about Catholics never allowing divorce at all, vs other denominations wrongly allowing it. This is disingenuous. The Catholics just use annulment as a workaround for divorce. It amounts to the same thing.

It is definitely possible for a married couple to become unmarried with the good graces of the Catholic church.
 
I apologize if my post above was reactive, but this paragraph shows that you took mass media headlines as fact and didn't read Fiducia Supplicans or the followup statement.

I agree it's problematic, but the document itself reaffirms perennial Catholic teaching on marriage.

I intend to remain in the barque of Peter, knowing the true extent of Papal infallibility defined in Vatican I. Jumping out every time the Pope makes a questionable statement isn't viable and shows a lack of faith in my opinion.

I attend the SSPX, which has a very sensible position given the crisis we face in the church currently. I would recommend any wavering Catholics to watch the 'Crisis in the Church' series to get a better perspective of what happened in the church, and what they can do.

God bless everyone, and sorry again for my reactive post earlier.

I think it fairly obvious you aren't reading any of the responses in this thread. Instead you post your biases because you feel threatened you may be wrong.

As pointed out in the first page of this thread, the "barque of Peter" is both Antioch and Rome. Peter was Patriarch of both places and ordained Bishops in both places.

So if you were to be in the barque of Peter then logically you must also be part of the Church of Antioch, otherwise you're disobeying Peter.
 
I can see this is yet another fruitless Orthodox circle jerk thread.

Recognizing your own bias and lack of good-faith research would prevent divisive threads like this.

I rarely see Catholics start threads like this here, or on other platforms.

Strawmanning Catholic positions isn't charitable. This whole thread reeks of pride. The truth speaks for itself.

I would be the first to admit that Orthodoxy has its issues.

Certain jurisdictions being influenced by the CIA causing persecutions in the Ukraine, membership of the World Council of Churches, liberalising elements in the church, jurisdictional chaos in the West and so forth.

I'm not going to stick my head in the sand about any of this. Even ignoring the beef that is between the Catholic and Orthodox churches that has arisen since the schism, and just zeroing in on the current Papacy, you cannot deny that there are problems for the Catholic church. If you don't want to hear any of that then go to an exclusive Catholic forum, or stick to the sub that is here.

It seems to me like theres an awful lot of cope going around in Catholic circles when it comes to the lunacy that Francis is spouting.
 
Why not be pagan then? That's more native European than any branch of Christianity if we're talking roots. Christianity is a foreign importation to Europe.
I don't know any of my ancestors who lived hundreds of years ago. The ones I know (up until 19th century) were all Protestant Christians.

So I'll stick with Protestantism, no matter what, because I respect and honor my ancestors - the ones that my parents and grandparents used to tell stories about. The ones whom I saw either in person, or in old photographs.​
 
I am seeing a lot of argument about Catholics never allowing divorce at all, vs other denominations wrongly allowing it. This is disingenuous. The Catholics just use annulment as a workaround for divorce. It amounts to the same thing.
Not true.
It is definitely possible for a married couple to become unmarried with the good graces of the Catholic church.
Yep. Like Henry VIII? The Pope denied divorce to a King. What are you saying? Actually the real Thomas More was hanged because he didn´t sign some document made by the english church which annulled the wedding. You are contradicting yourself More.

If I had time. I would dig deeper in Henry VIII court. There would be jews there for sure. Marranos.

It´s practically impossible to get an anullment. You will never marry again by the church if you divorce. This I can guarantee you. When I studied cannon law. In 2002 It was said so by the teacher. I´ve studied in a Catholic university.

Not even influential people could get one by then. Don´t know how things changed with the Jesuit. Even catholic law professors couldn´t get annulments. If the head of the company is catholic. Nobody in the company can divorce. If he do he will be relegated in promotions.

There are catholic law offices. The first thing everyone does in the morning is hold hands. I´m talking the entire team. And make a prayer.

Jesuits were infiltrated by jews. They check when an influential jesuit family has money issues. And send a rich jew woman to marry into that family. And the corruption begins. I´m talking here about jesuit eyes wide shut elite level of families.
 
I don't know any of my ancestors who lived hundreds of years ago. The ones I know (up until 19th century) were all Protestant Christians.

So I'll stick with Protestantism, no matter what, because I respect and honor my ancestors The ancestors that my parents and grandparents used to tell stories about, the ones I saw either in person, or in old photographs.​

Alright, so let me be more direct:

You believe ancestral & ethnic loyalty is more important than Truth?
 
Alright, so let me be more direct:

You believe ancestral & ethnic loyalty is more important than Truth?

Are you trying to say that your Orthodoxy is the only Truth - and the Protestantism of me and my ancestors is "false"?

Biological roots are very important. The Bible tells us to respect our blood relatives, i.e. our ancestors.

Honour thy father and thy mother (Exodus 20:12)
 
It seems to me like theres an awful lot of cope going around in Catholic circles when it comes to the lunacy that Francis is spouting.

Yes. But this Pope is temporary. I´m not going to leave my family because there´s a bad moment. You know how long the Church exists. And the thinkers we had? The high level of knowledge. This pope is a small footnote.

Catholic Church is mostly based in Aristotle. After Aquinas. And Augustine. Mostly.

The fundamental base of the catholic doctrine is human dignity. You will hear this repeatedly in catholic teachings. All humans have an inherent Human Dignity. Which no one has the right to violate. This human dignity is what separates man from all other beings.

The debate is always between Aristotle (natural law) and Plato (positivism). Others are reruns of this two.

There are inherent atributes which cannot be challenged. You can make any law you want. But if there´s no connection to human dignity that law will be repealed by the people. From there goes a lot more.

You cannot change immutable laws. Bend them all you want. They will assume it´s natural form in time.
 
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It´s practically impossible to get an anullment. You will never marry again by the church if you divorce. This I can guarantee you. When I studied cannon law. In 2002 It was said so by the teacher. I´ve studied in a Catholic university.
I don't know first hand. I'm going by what I have heard about annulment over the years, and what I can find online. When I look online, I find sources like this, which do not make it sound like it is practically impossible.

 
I don't know first hand. I'm going by what I have heard about annulment over the years, and what I can find online. When I look online, I find sources like this, which do not make it sound like it is practically impossible.

In 2002 law professors couldn´t get annulments. I know of at least one case. Famous. You realize accept a divorce in catholic church means you could make a celebration on the church two times. That would be pretty fucked up. Have you ever seen it? I´ve never.

Don´t know how things are in US. The land of Whorestantism.

It would be fun however for the sake of academic debate to see percentages of divorces/annulment granted by flock.
 
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Are you trying to say that your Orthodoxy is the only Truth - and the Protestantism of me and my ancestors is "false"?

Biological roots are very important. The Bible tells us to respect our blood relatives, i.e. our ancestors.

Honour thy father and thy mother (Exodus 20:12)
Your ancestors protestantism. Is not today protestantism. The old protestantism. Was based in the church. Mostly cath and ortho.

Protestants were right on their critic. Back then. What they didn´t realize was they were opening a Pandora box. It was a small crack which would eventually fuck all west. As we now see.

Protestantism as evolved into whorestantism.
 
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Are you trying to say that your Orthodoxy is the only Truth - and the Protestantism of me and my ancestors is "false"?

Biological roots are very important. The Bible tells us to respect our blood relatives, i.e. our ancestors.

Honour thy father and thy mother (Exodus 20:12)

Yes of course, because protestants preach many different, directly contradictory teachings from Orthodox. How can I hold one thing to be true and think that something that is different & contradictory is anything but false? Do you think that truth is subjective and different for each person?

What if your parents were Satan worshippers? Should we honor and mimic their example then?
 
This is false and easily contradicted by many historical accounts. For example, St. Olga (mother of St. Vlad) returned from Constantinople baptized, and yet no one in Rus believed in Christ, including Olga's own son. It would take another generation, before her grandson, became interested in Christ and would eventually convert later in life after his 5th wife was a Byzantine Empress.

The idea that one cannot, or should not, engage in long-sufferings for their Neighbors and plainly contradicted by scripture, the Saints, and history.

Now, is this sort of thing for everyone? Of course not, which is why I said it varies on a individual basis. To deny the individual aspect of people's faith is to deny the mystery and all-awesome power of God. We can only marvel at His works.

It is true, that for most, Orthodox evangelism is not a valid path. Probably 80-90% of those exposed to Orthodoxy are best served by total conversion and attendance to an Orthodox place of worship. However, there will be many, for all sorts of reasons (such as lack of access to an Orthodox parish, or to keep one's family intact, or because they are influential within their own heterodox parish) that will involve them trying to save their Neighbors instead of merely leaving them.

Remember, was the Samaritan any less of a Neighbor despite the fact he was not a Jew?



There are plenty of Saints who disagree with you. Right from http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/pomaz_status.aspx :

"Therefore it is quite natural to affirm that these religious organizations are societies which are "near," or "next to," or " close to," or perhaps even" adjoining" the Church, but sometimes " against" it; but they are all "outside" the one Church of Christ. Some of them have cut themselves off, others have gone far away. Some, in going away, all the same have historical ties of blood with her; others have lost all kinship, and in them the very spirit and foundations of Christianity have been distorted. None of them find themselves under the activity of the grace which is present in the Church, and especially the grace which is given in the Mysteries of the Church. They are not nourished by that mystical table which leads up along the steps of moral perfection."

The above is the position I have argued for in this thread. Is the position I have been taught by my Bishop. Now let's quote a Saint or two:


St. Seraphim

"The word “heretic” (as we say in our article on Fr. Dimitry Dudko) is indeed used too frequently nowadays. It has a definite meaning and function, to distinguish new teachings from the Orthodox teaching; but few of the non-Orthodox Christians today are consciously “heretics,” and it really does no good to call them that.

In the end, I think, Fr. Dimitry Dudko’s attitude is the correct one: We should view the non-Orthodox as people to whom Orthodoxy has not yet been revealed, as people who are potentially Orthodox (if only we ourselves would give them a better example!). There is no reason why we cannot call them Christians and be on good terms with them, recognize that we have at least our faith in Christ in common, and live in peace especially with our own families. St. Innocent’s attitude to the Roman Catholics in California is a good example for us. A harsh, polemical attitude is called for only when the non-Orthodox are trying to take away our flocks or change our teaching.…

As for prejudices—these belong to people, not the Church. Orthodoxy does not require you to accept any prejudices or opinions about other races, nations, etc."

St. Silouan the Athonite


I remember a conversation he had with a certain Archimandrite who was engaged in missionary work. This Archimandrite thought highly of the Staretz and many a time went to see him during his visits to the Holy Mountain. The Staretz asked him what sort of sermons he preached to people. The Archimandrite, who was still young and inexperienced gesticulated with his hands and swayed his whole body, and replied excitedly, ‘I tell them, Your faith is all wrong, perverted. There is nothing right, and if you don’t repent, there will be no salvation for you.’

The Staretz heard him out, then asked, ‘Tell me, Father Archimandrite, do they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the true God?’

‘Yes, that they do believe.’

‘And do they revere the Mother of God?’

‘Yes, but they are not taught properly about her.’

‘And what of the Saints?’

‘Yes, they honour them but since they have fallen away from the Church, what saints can they have?’

‘Do they celebrate the Divine Office in their churches? Do they read the Gospels?’

‘Yes, they do have churches and services but if you were to compare their services with ours—how cold and lifeless theirs are!’

‘Father Archimandrite, people feel in their souls when they are doing the proper thing, believing in Jesus Christ, revering the Mother of God and the Saints, whom they call upon in prayer, so if you condemn their faith they will not listen to you ... But if you were to confirm that they were doing well to believe in God and honour the Mother of God and the Saints; that they are right to go to church, and say their prayers at home, read the Divine word, and so on; and then gently point out their mistakes and show them what they ought to amend, then they would listen to you, and the Lord would rejoice over them. And this way by God’s mercy we shall all find salvation ... God is love, and therefore the preaching of His word must always proceed from love. Then both preacher and listener will profit. But if you do nothing but condemn, the soul of the people will not heed you, and no good will come of it.’


Notice the part I bolded above - "that they are right to go to Church." Silouan didn't say they needed to come to our Church, but that they are right to go to Church, which would be the Church they knew - Catholic or Protestant.



As I've said before - if they can improve their churches they should improve their churches with the true teachings of Orthodoxy; if they cannot or find it brings them spiritual detriment, they should come home to a true Church and worship with other Orthodox. No two paths to God are the same, and to deny this is to deny the awesome power and ineffable mysteries of God.

For most, it probably means leaving their church, but for others, they may be able to find a way to improve their home church - Glory to God.


Everything said above from the Saints, or I (which is through my Bishop), ultimately stems from two parts of scripture:

1. The Parable of the Good Samaritan
2. "Those who are not against us are for us" Mark 9:38-41

38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

Those who are not part of the Apostolic tradition are to be tolerated and not stopped, even if they have heresies. For that is the command of the Christ.

The historical record shows that these heterodox actually prepare the way for the Orthodox; we must be patient and marvel in God's glory and ultimate plans.

Catholics are not after orthos. It would be redundant. They are after protestants. Opus Dei tried to bring them in with the sanctity of work. Now jesuits with fags.
 
What if your parents were Satan worshippers? Should we honor and mimic their example then?
No, because Satanism favors promiscuity, pornography and abortion - abominations which either poison or entirely terminate your bloodline.

To be clear: I hate LGBT Protestant churches or female pastors just as you guys do (currently without Church). Maybe "magoo" has a point that modern 21st century Protestantism is not the same as the Oldschool Protestantism even in the 19th century.​
 
Herein lies the problem with modern Catholics, they are even more Catholic than the Pope. I'd wager many of them even know Catholic history better than the Pope. But when you confront them on this, the Pope becomes a "footnote." Not the infallible, Bishop of bishops that all Catholics must look to as their guide. Ironically, the Papacy will prove to be the Catholic church's own undoing
 
No, because Satanism favors promiscuity, pornography and abortion - abominations which either poison or entirely terminate your bloodline.​

So the metric by which we should choose our religion, worship and spiritual truth is how beneficial it is for the promulgation of our bloodline?
 
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