Catholicism: Criticism & Debate Thread

Then why did Orthodox (pre-schism) hold Rome to have primacy?

And there are quotes from Eastern Orthodox saints agreeing to this:

'St. Maximus the Confessor, a saint highly venerated in Eastern Orthodoxy, asserts that Rome’s position among the churches is because of a divine institution, not just because of conciliar decrees or Rome’s status in the empire. He states, Let him [i.e., Pyrrhus] hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. [For h]e is only wasting words who thinks he must convince or lure such people as myself, instead of satisfying or entreating the blessed pope of the most holy catholic church of Rome, i.e., the Apostolic Throne, which is from the incarnate Son himself and which, in accordance with the holy canons and the definitions of faith, received from all the holy councils universal and supreme dominion, authority, and the power over all God’s churches throughout the world to bind and loose.'

St. Maximus is one man and not infallible, and far more many Saints have asserted the opposite here; that namely the Church is One and cannot be dominated by any other part and must act in unison.

Also there is this scenario from pre-schism council:

'Consider the Council of Chalcedon (451), where the papal legate (representative) Paschasinus describes the pope in the presence of the bishops of the council as “the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the city of Rome, the head of all the churches.”7 This is done with no protest by the Eastern bishops present at the council.'

In no way does "the head of all the churches" translate to universal jurisdiction, which is why there was no objection. The vast majority of Ancient Christian world was fine with Rome as a mediator at the top of the Church.
 
'St. Maximus the Confessor, a saint highly venerated in Eastern Orthodoxy, asserts that Rome’s position among the churches is because of a divine institution, not just because of conciliar decrees or Rome’s status in the empire. He states, Let him [i.e., Pyrrhus] hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. [For h]e is only wasting words who thinks he must convince or lure such people as myself, instead of satisfying or entreating the blessed pope of the most holy catholic church of Rome, i.e., the Apostolic Throne, which is from the incarnate Son himself and which, in accordance with the holy canons and the definitions of faith, received from all the holy councils universal and supreme dominion, authority, and the power over all God’s churches throughout the world to bind and loose.'

Context always reveals what's happening, it would be nice to know who that letter was to, and when it was written. It should be before St Martin was elected pope.

During this theological controversy, Rome was the defender of the Orthodox faith. Pyrrhus (former Patriarch of Constantinople) was corrupting churches until St Maximus bested Pyrrhus (former Patriarch of Constantinople) in debate at a synod, after which Pyrrhus went to Rome and recanted his heresy, and he was received by Rome as an Orthodox Patriarch, afterwhich Pyrrhus succumbed to political pressure, and recanted the Orthodox faith, his detractors (the heretics) saying he was forced to accept the Orthodox faith by Rome/African bishops. Which ended up causing St Martin Pope of Rome to be persecuted and exiled for not affirming the Typos (which is what St. Maximus rejected),

This is from when St Maximus was in prison, it's recorded in his life...(taken from the Great Collection of the Lives of The Saints, January)

"They announced that the Partiarch had sent them then asked the saint, "To which Church do you belong: to that of Byzantium, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, or Jerusalem? All these churches and the provinces under them in concord. If you belong to the Catholic Church, you must enter into communion with us at once.....

The man of God wisely replied "Christ the Lord acknowledges as Catholic that Church which maintains the true and saving confession of faith. He called Peter blessed for his correct confession of Him, upon which He built His Church. But tell me: on what basis have all the churches, as you say, entered into communion? If it is on a foundation of truth, I do not wish to be separated from them."
 
Context always reveals what's happening, it would be nice to know who that letter was to, and when it was written. It should be before St Martin was elected pope.

During this theological controversy, Rome was the defender of the Orthodox faith. Pyrrhus (former Patriarch of Constantinople) was corrupting churches until St Maximus bested Pyrrhus (former Patriarch of Constantinople) in debate at a synod, after which Pyrrhus went to Rome and recanted his heresy, and he was received by Rome as an Orthodox Patriarch, afterwhich Pyrrhus succumbed to political pressure, and recanted the Orthodox faith, his detractors (the heretics) saying he was forced to accept the Orthodox faith by Rome/African bishops. Which ended up causing St Martin Pope of Rome to be persecuted and exiled for not affirming the Typos (which is what St. Maximus rejected),

This is from when St Maximus was in prison, it's recorded in his life...(taken from the Great Collection of the Lives of The Saints, January)
No no... We can't have that.

No contextualization for quotes is allowed !!!
 
*sighs* You are missing a lot. You are still naive by not connecting the dots so I'm not going to reply by hijacking and/or derailing this thread.


Yeah...no sh*t, Sherlock. :rolleyes:
Ohh do derail old master splinter.

One dot I’m connecting is Catholics contrary to Orthodoxes were never subverted by jew Bolshevism. Never. They did try. Franco knew how to deal with them. He had no doubts Bolshevik’s were Jews. He pusblished a book called:

“War in Spain against Bolshevik Judaism.”

Catholics were the shock troop soldiers against communism.

And Russians united with Catholics might had a chance.

Even today Opus Dei connected people are explicitly naming Jews again. Cause catholic population are starting to get fed up with Jew/Protestant debauchery.

This thing of kids cutting dick is too much. Any doctor who makes a surgery cutting a kids dick to make money. Should have his own dick removed also. As a lesson. See how he enjoyed it. And the father also. If he is not against it. What is this? There´s no coming back from this. Protestants seem to be in some kind of spell. A numbness.

Name a degeneracy I will show it was first implemented in a jew/prot country. Name one. Never it starts in catholic or ortho (when the church exists).

This decentralization orthos and prots like is a weakness. And goes directly against what Christ said. Loose and bound. The successor of Peter looses and bounds. Period. And when he looses and bounds he is Ex cathedra. Or he looses on earth only? Pope the father spoke 2 times Ex cathedra. Because of Mary.

This is in spiritual matters. In spiritual matters it´s a dictatorship. Not oligarchy. The Pope might listen to others but he decides. And should keep his mouth shut on all other matters. This environmental stance of Francis is nonsense. To romans what it is to romans. And to God etc.

In catholic universities you have 100 pages dedicated to Nazism. And 400 to communism. Other stuff it´s 20-50 pages.
 
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"Christ did not place Peter simply as the first of his peers, but put him above all others. He gave him a power that others didn’t give him. In Mt 16,18-19, “And I so I say to you, you are Peter and upon this stone I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” In v. 19, he said, “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus gives to Peter a power that does not extend to the apostles. Only he has the keys to the Kingdom"

In chapter 16 of Matthew, Christ says that to Peter, true.

But in Chapter 18, two chapters later, Christ says to all of his apostles that they have the power to bind and loosen:
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”



Anyone can see from the context of Chapter 18 that Christ was speaking to his disciples, as the Chapter starts with Christ talking about how the greatest disciple, out of the 12, in the Kingdom of Heaven will be the one who is least among them:

At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Christ repeated this teaching to his disciples many times, in many other passages, however, since Chapter 18 starts with a teaching to his disciples we can infer the power to bind and loosen later on in Chapter 18 is also to his disciples.

Thus, the Catholic teaching on the disciples, and the power to bind and loosen, is false; it goes beyond Peter to the other disciples. Furthermore, Peter was not meant to lord his power over the other disciples, contrary to Catholic heresy.
 
Ohh do derail old master splinter.

One dot I’m connecting is Catholics contrary to Orthodoxes were never subverted by jew Bolshevism. Never. They did try. Franco knew how to deal with them. He had no doubts Bolshevik’s were Jews. He pusblished a book called:

“War in Spain against Bolshevik Judaism.”

Catholics were the shock troop soldiers against communism.

And Russians united with Catholics might had a chance.

Even today Opus Dei connected people are explicitly naming Jews again. Cause catholic population are starting to get fed up with Jew/Protestant debauchery.

This thing of kids cutting dick is too much. Any doctor who makes a surgery cutting a kids dick to make money. Should have his own dick removed also. As a lesson. See how he enjoyed it. And the father also. If he is not against it. What is this? There´s no coming back from this. Protestants seem to be in some kind of spell. A numbness.

Name a degeneracy I will show it was first implemented in a jew/prot country. Name one. Never it starts in catholic or ortho (when the church exists).

This decentralization orthos and prots like is a weakness. And goes directly against what Christ said. Loose and bound. The successor of Peter looses and bounds. Period. And when he looses and bounds he is Ex cathedra. Or he looses on earth only? Pope the father spoke 2 times Ex cathedra. Because of Mary.

This is in spiritual matters. In spiritual matters it´s a dictatorship. Not oligarchy. The Pope might listen to others but he decides. And should keep his mouth shut on all other matters. This environmental stance of Francis is nonsense. To romans what it is to romans. And to God etc.

In catholic universities you have 100 pages dedicated to Nazism. And 400 to communism. Other stuff it´s 20-50 pages.
Has the Catholic Church ever been infiltrated by jews? Jesuit etc.?
 
In chapter 16 of Matthew, Christ says that to Peter, true.

But in Chapter 18, two chapters later, Christ says to all of his apostles that they have the power to bind and loosen:




Anyone can see from the context of Chapter 18 that Christ was speaking to his disciples, as the Chapter starts with Christ talking about how the greatest disciple, out of the 12, in the Kingdom of Heaven will be the one who is least among them:



Christ repeated this teaching to his disciples many times, in many other passages, however, since Chapter 18 starts with a teaching to his disciples we can infer the power to bind and loosen later on in Chapter 18 is also to his disciples.

Thus, the Catholic teaching on the disciples, and the power to bind and loosen, is false; it goes beyond Peter to the other disciples. Furthermore, Peter was not meant to lord his power over the other disciples, contrary to Catholic heresy.


Why did Christ first spoke to Peter individually about the bind and loosen? And only afterwards repeated the same to others? Why didn´t He simply adressed all the Apostles at the same time?

There is clearly a repetition in 16 and 18. But Peter was chosen as the first to hear about it from Christ. Why? Because he had previously answered a question with faith. And therefore Christ decided to put him in a different position than the others. That Peter was treated differently from the others Apostles by Christ is a undeniable fact. He was spoken to first and individually.

This would be enough to establish Peter primacy.

But Christ did give something else to Peter. the keys of the kingdom of heaven. in the repetition of 16 and 18 chapter the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven were specifically left out by Christ when He mentioned the bind and loose to other Apostles.

If Christ had given the keys to all. Why would He repeat one part (bind and loose) and left out the other (keys)?

All apostles might have the power to forbid or allow. But only one of them also has the keys. And this is a big difference. Because others can bind or loose. But Peter is the one who holds the keys and can open or close the gates. The final decision is undoubtly with Peter. And his successor holds the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.

But I´m not against orthodoxes. Do your thing. I don´t know how national orthodox churches reconcile with the church universality. But do your thing.

Anyway. Here´s a take from catholic cathecism:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324




Here´s some more takes from dominicans.

"Christ did not place Peter simply as the first of his peers, but put him above all others. He gave him a power that others didn’t give him. In Mt 16,18-19, “And I so I say to you, you are Peter and upon this stone I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” In v. 19, he said, “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus gives to Peter a power that does not extend to the apostles. Only he has the keys to the Kingdom.

3. In Mt 18,18, “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”. Jesus extends the power to bind and dissolve even the apostolic college, but not the individual apostles. Moreover there is an Apostolic College because there is Peter. Without him there would be no Apostolic College.

Finally, Christ, by giving the college what he had previously given Peter, does not take away from him the power he had conferred upon him. For this reason, it is rightly said that the college only has a cum Petro et sub Petro (with Peter and below Peter).

In addition to the steps on the primacy that you mentioned, there is another one, of particular importance, in which Jesus tells Peter, “Simon, Simon, behold Satan, has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turn back, you must strengthen your brothers” (Lk 22.31-32).

4. The passages of the Scriptures are eloquent and incontrovertible. But divine revelation, and the Orthodox know this very well, is not only made up of sacred scripture, but also of sacred tradition. It is interesting to note that this primacy was understood in the life of the church when the Divine Revelation was not yet closed. Incidentally, the Divine Revelation ends with the death of the last apostle. Tradition is the ring that binds our faith to the faith of the apostles. It’s that ring I can say, “My faith is the same as the apostles, those who have been with Jesus and who have heard his teachings with their ears.”

5. Well, the tradition reminds us that in the nineties, while Saint John is still alive in Ephesus, disorder erupts among the faithful in Corinth. Rather than appealing to St. John in Ephesus, on the other side of the Aegean Sea, the Christians of Corinth go directly to the third successor of Peter who is Pope Clement. And he intervenes with his authority. Saint John writes his gospel after these events. And it indirectly confirms the authority with which Pope Clement intervened by referring the task given by Christ to Peter to feed sheep and lambs, that is, the faithful and bishops."

 
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@magoo We are having the exact same conversation I had with Tippy a few pages back. There are two main objections to the way Catholics interpret Peter.

1. The primacy of Peter does not invalidate the other apostles. We know this from Acts, where Peter never decided anything unilaterally, but always after consulting with the other Apostles. When it came time to make a decision about circumcision, for example, Peter actually deferred to Paul and ended up not making circumcision mandatory. Peter never made a decision on his own.

Even though he had the final say, he respected the teachings of Christ, who is the Lord, and held his other apostles as equals.

2. The second objection is that the primacy of Peter does not rest with Rome, but with Antioch, since the Church of Antioch was the First Church of Peter. Click here and read the whole thing, and watch the videos of your own Popes. They all know Antioch is the First Church of Peter, because it's written directly into the Book of Acts.
 
@magoo We are having the exact same conversation I had with Tippy a few pages back. There are two main objections to the way Catholics interpret Peter.

1. The primacy of Peter does not invalidate the other apostles. We know this from Acts, where Peter never decided anything unilaterally, but always after consulting with the other Apostles. When it came time to make a decision about circumcision, for example, Peter actually deferred to Paul and ended up not making circumcision mandatory. Peter never made a decision on his own.

Even though he had the final say, he respected the teachings of Christ, who is the Lord, and held his other apostles as equals.

2. The second objection is that the primacy of Peter does not rest with Rome, but with Antioch, since the Church of Antioch was the First Church of Peter. Click here and read the whole thing, and watch the videos of your own Popes. They all know Antioch is the First Church of Peter, because it's written directly into the Book of Acts.

You had Popes in Avignon.

Rome became the center probably because of it´s wealth. (Peter also died there. But that´s not the reason). Which allowed studies etc. The Church like Tippy said would have to be built in Jerusalem.

I don´t think the fragmentation of different churches is a good thing. And I also don´t believe any organization can survive without a leader and uniform rules for it´s members. It goes against nature. There´s always a figurehead. I think orthodoxes have a figurehead. They just don´t name him formally.

I think Rome became too powerfull and the Orthos leaders felt left out. There´s also probably political considerations.

So basically it´s the corporate governance of the Church which keeps Orthos and Caths apart?

It´s also obvious to me these divisions are affecting christianity. And there needs to be a better way to transmit the messages. A permanent annual comission should definitely be created between Orthos and Caths. Protestants can serve the drinks (just kiddin).

The bodies of the Church should probably be divided by Caths and Orthos. But the executive should be in Vatican. For numerous reasons.

The deliberative council in an ortho church/country. Of course Rome needs to decentralize with Orthodoxes some leadership bodies of the church. It needs to be universal. Not local. Nonsense.

The nationalization of Christianity is a weakness.

There´s a lot of political considerations which are probably not being taken into account in this discussion. And should. But probably in another place.

Wanted to go to Israel this summer. Jews ruin everything.
 
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I think Rome became too powerfull and the Orthos leaders felt left out. There´s also probably political considerations.

No, Orthodox tried their best to keep Rome with the rest of the Church. That's what the Eigth Ecumencial Council was all about:

Papal legates were present, and accepted the council, but later on the Pope changed his mind and went rogue from the rest of the Church.
 
No, Orthodox tried their best to keep Rome with the rest of the Church. That's what the Eigth Ecumencial Council was all about:

Papal legates were present, and accepted the council, but later on the Pope changed his mind and went rogue from the rest of the Church.

But which orthodox? Which one?

Eastern Orthodoxy​

Oriental Orthodoxy​

Others​

Some small churches in the West use the word "Orthodox" in their titles but are quite distinct from these two families of churches. Examples are the Celtic Orthodox Church and those mentioned in this account.

Council of Florence. Some signed others didn´t.

In the following months, agreement was reached on the Western doctrine of Purgatory and a return to the pre-schism prerogatives of the papacy. On 6 July 1439 an agreement (Laetentur Caeli) was signed by all the Eastern bishops but one, Mark of Ephesus, delegate for the Patriarch of Alexandria, who, contrary to the views of all others, held that Rome continued in both heresy and schism.

What happened?

The Emperor, bishops, and people of Constantinople accepted this act as a temporary provision until the removal of the Ottoman threat. Yet, it was too late: on 29 May 1453 Constantinople fell. The union signed at Florence, down to the present, has not been implemented by the Orthodox Churches.
Following their conquest, the Ottomans encouraged hardline anti-unionist Orthodox clerics in order to divide European Christians.[15]


Not only ottomans like to see christians divided. That´s for sure. Another tribe protected and enabled by protestants also enjoys.

The Eastern Orthodox churches hold to seven ecumenical councils. The Oriental Orthodox churches hold to just the first three councils.

One is seven other is three?


So it stops there. In the seven. You wonder why? Why is it that orthodoxes have never managed to make another ecumenical council?

It´s temporal power. Not spiritual. Which is preventing the union.

Here´s the list of Catholic Churches:

Roman Catholic Church

Here’s what catholic think of Jews as a group. Individually they’re ok.


 
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If you are not with the pope 100%,
You are not a Roman catholic.
100% on everything. Everything.

Who told you that?

No even clergy can do that. How could a common person?

You think average catholics have read all Francis Encyclicals? Or even all papal encyclicals?

People go to mass on sundays and listen to priest. Pray. Celebrate special occasions. Confess. Fast, etc.

A baptised baby becomes a member of the church. How can they know Papal doctrine?

People know fundamentals. Also because they are everywhere. Catholicism is everywhere. People can quote bible verses without even knowing it´s from there. It´s totally ingrained in catholic countries culture.

Christianity is not just a religion. It´s a system. A way of life. Based fundamentally on trust, love and human dignity.

And a distrust for jews. This is in the psyche. A friend of mine says a lot of jews are converts that´s why we don´t notice them so much. There are not many open jews in catholic countries. Actually to be fair with jews. During pandemic one jew in a rugby match was saying he would never take the vaccines because that´s what they had done to his ancestors. He was pretty vocal about it.

Individual jews are ok. As a group it´s like a brainwashed sect without any critical thinking or brakes. If you see 5 jews together. Hold on to your wallet.

I read Gaudium and Spes, Rerum Novarum and some other encyclicals. Because I had to. But they were great principles.

I was reading the catholic cannon law the other day. And it says you cannot coerce anyone to become catholic. This is a mistake. Anyone who wants to enter a country in Europe should do mandatory christian classes. And be baptised.

If you see the protestant thread. You can really feel they lack of faith there. It´s only rationality. I´ve put it in ignore. Because. Treating the bible as a math book. Quoting and requoting verses. It´s a lack of faith. Woman participating. Theres explicitly a verse which says woman should be silent and humble. They don´t care. No limits. Nothing. But like many times before I could be wrong.

Pope interview. I think it was a pretty good interview:



The look on her face when he says woman can´t be priests. Ahahahahahahahah. It´s stated in the bible woman should act with discreition.

Here read all this to be a good catholic. Nonsense. Always extremes. And more extremes:

 
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How a
Who told you that?

No even clergy can do that. How could a common person?

You think average catholics have read all Francis Encyclicals? Or even all papal encyclicals?

People go to mass on sundays and listen to priest. Pray. Celebrate special occasions. Confess. Fast, etc.

A baptised baby becomes a member of the church. How can they know Papal doctrine?

People know fundamentals. Also because they are everywhere. Catholicism is everywhere. People can quote bible verses without even knowing it´s from there. It´s totally ingrained in catholic countries culture.

Christianity is not just a religion. It´s a system. A way of life. Based fundamentally on trust, love and human dignity.

And a distrust for jews. This is in the psyche. A friend of mine says a lot of jews are converts that´s why we don´t notice them so much. There are not many open jews in catholic countries. Actually to be fair with jews. During pandemic one jew in a rugby match was saying he would never take the vaccines because that´s what they had done to his ancestors. He was pretty vocal about it.

Individual jews are ok. As a group it´s like a brainwashed sect without any critical thinking or brakes. If you see 5 jews together. Hold on to your wallet.

I read Gaudium and Spes, Rerum Novarum and some other encyclicals. Because I had to. But they were great principles.

I was reading the catholic cannon law the other day. And it says you cannot coerce anyone to become catholic. This is a mistake. Anyone who wants to enter a country in Europe should do mandatory christian classes. And be baptised.

If you see the protestant thread. You can really feel they lack of faith there. It´s only rationality. I´ve put it in ignore. Because. Treating the bible as a math book. Quoting and requoting verses. It´s a lack of faith. Woman participating. They don´t care. But like many times before I could be wrong.

Pope interview. I think it was a pretty good interview:



The look on her face when he says woman can´t be priests. Ahahahahahahahah. It´s stated in the bible woman should act with discreition.

Here read all this to be a good catholic. Nonsense. Always extremes. And more extremes:


How about praying in a mosque?
Is this something you do?
 
If you see the protestant thread. You can really feel they lack of faith there. It´s only rationality. I´ve put it in ignore. Because. Treating the bible as a math book. Quoting and requoting verses. It´s a lack of faith. Woman participating. They don´t care. But like many times before I could be wrong.
Faith ≠ Irrationality.

The Catholic Church, once upon a time, used to have a very robust scholastic tradition. Perhaps if they kept up with it, they wouldn't have gotten trounced in the Reformation.

Nowadays, Catholicism has boiled down to either taking the red pill and realizing that the Papacy is part of the subversion, or taking the blue pill and trying to rehabilitate the Pope, not realizing that his successors are twice as liberal as him.
 
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Faith ≠ Irrationality.

The Catholic Church, once upon a time, used to have a very robust scholastic school. Perhaps if they kept up with it, they wouldn't have gotten trounced in the Reformation.

Nowadays, Catholicism has boiled down to either taking the red pill and realizing that the Papacy is part of the subversion, or taking the blue pill and trying to rehabilitate the Pope, not realizing that his successors are twice as liberal as him.

Who got trounced?

Methodists End Bans on Gay Clergy and Same-Sex Marriage, Closing 50 Years of Battles for Mainline Protestants​



Looll
 
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