Catholicism: Criticism & Debate Thread

But by logical extension the first Bishop of Antioch, Ignatius, had more authority as a teacher than the Bishops set up in Rome at a later date.

And, in fact, everyone today holds Ignatius, the First Bishop of Peter and Antioch, as an authority when justifying Apostolic succession, including Rome. Thus Antioch continued to hold the teacher status long after Peter in virtue of being first: as a Church and from Bishops.

Everywhere in the Bible, whoever comes first has more authority than those who come later; hence why Paul says Men are to have authority over Women because they came first.

It isn't a logical extension. We are talking about the role of Pope and bishop. When Peter was in Antioch, he was the Pope and bishop of Antioch. Before he leaves he appoints a successor in Antioch. Then he moves to Rome becoming both bishop and Pope there. When he dies, the person taking over becomes both bishop and Pope in Rome.

Somebody could make a similar rhetorical and revisionist argument to yours to argue why Jerusalem should take precedence over Antioch and Rome but that would be ignoring what the truth of what was intended for the church through Peter's actions in his life.
 
It isn't a logical extension. We are talking about the role of Pope and bishop. When Peter was in Antioch, he was the Pope and bishop of Antioch. Before he leaves he appoints a successor in Antioch. Then he moves to Rome becoming both bishop and Pope there. When he dies, the person taking over becomes both bishop and Pope in Rome.

Somebody could make a similar rhetorical and revisionist argument to yours to argue why Jerusalem should take precedence over Antioch and Rome but that would be ignoring what the truth of what was intended for the church through Peter's actions in his life.

The Pope was never anything except a bishop appointed to a role of organizational authority. The word Pope is Latin for Patriarch, which is exactly what the Patriarch of Antioch is - Pope of Antioch.

Thus, the first Bishop of Peter was Ignatius of Antioch, who was also a great teacher for all Churches worldwide. Hence the precedence of Antioch comes before Rome, in all things ecclesiastical, and because Antioch has always resisted Papal claims of authority the rest of the Church will never obey Rome as long as the First successor of Peter continues to tell all other Churches that the Pope of Rome is not the highest authority of the Church.

Roman Catholics must realize that without the assent of Antioch, they will never have any lasting authority over the Church. That someone could claim to be the seat of Peter be directly contradicted by the First Church of Peter destroys all claims to legitimacy or authority.
 
It isn't a logical extension. We are talking about the role of Pope and bishop. When Peter was in Antioch, he was the Pope and bishop of Antioch. Before he leaves he appoints a successor in Antioch. Then he moves to Rome becoming both bishop and Pope there. When he dies, the person taking over becomes both bishop and Pope in Rome.
You can't start an argument with stating something is and then saying it is because it was - when it is disputed by the originals who were always there and never changed their stance. You just did that with the term Pope but it's arbitrary and it doesn't even follow - you're basically arguing (literally) "take my word for it".

Peter was corrected by Paul. Peter was not the authority of the Church at Jerusalem. These all pre-date Rome. Even if you think Rome is special, it also fell, that would be like Orthodox acting like they came after Rome and expanded the church to actually a Christian Roman empire, and are somehow now more important even though the Turks conquered them and we are all looking back. They would have a better claim though, even in that bastardized logic scenario.

The Orthodox teaching is clear and supported by the Antiochians, who where the first Christians, as I've said before: all of the Apostles are universal teachers of the faith. Not one lacks anything. Bishops are taught by them and have succession AFTER them. I challenge you to claim any of the Apostles lacks authority for teaching. You will not counter this, because you can't, and Christianity would be disassembled if you did.

Roman Catholics descend from the Franco-Roman empire, which is the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither Holy nor Roman. That is the fact. The Eastern Roman empire was the Roman empire, they called themselves Roman, they were Christian, and they clearly were not closer to what people refer to as Roman Catholics today. That this is uncomfortable for modern day RCs to deal with isn't my issue, it's just a fact of history.
 
You can't start an argument with stating something is and then saying it is because it was - when it is disputed by the originals who were always there and never changed their stance. You just did that with the term Pope but it's arbitrary and it doesn't even follow - you're basically arguing (literally) "take my word for it".

Peter was corrected by Paul. Peter was not the authority of the Church at Jerusalem. These all pre-date Rome. Even if you think Rome is special, it also fell, that would be like Orthodox acting like they came after Rome and expanded the church to actually a Christian Roman empire, and are somehow now more important even though the Turks conquered them and we are all looking back. They would have a better claim though, even in that bastardized logic scenario.

The Orthodox teaching is clear and supported by the Antiochians, who where the first Christians, as I've said before: all of the Apostles are universal teachers of the faith. Not one lacks anything. Bishops are taught by them and have succession AFTER them. I challenge you to claim any of the Apostles lacks authority for teaching. You will not counter this, because you can't, and Christianity would be disassembled if you did.
Which Orthodox church are you even arguing for? The Russian one? The Ukranian one? The Armenian one? The Greek one? Just for context.

So now you are denying the primacy of Peter? If you follow the primacy of Peter, he ends up in Rome and his successor continues there. I repeat this point since you want to take it back to Antioch. Why not Jerusalem then?

I'm not arguing take my word for it. I'm actually trying to take myself out of the equating and look at it from the most logical stand point rather than what I see is an attempt to retroactively explain history to fit a certain narrative.
 
Roman Catholics must realize that without the assent of Antioch, they will never have any lasting authority over the Church. That someone could claim to be the seat of Peter be directly contradicted by the First Church of Peter destroys all claims to legitimacy or authority.
As a matter of fact, the legitimate Patriarchate of Antioch has been in communion with the Roman Catholic Church since the 18th century so there goes your entire argument. Whooops!
 
Then why did you make Constantinople the "first among equals" after the break with Rome?

Politics. Rome and Constantinople were the biggest cities of the day. The ecumenical councils, were councils of the emperor who held these cities in the highest regard.

Ecumenical = "in the house of someone" and the someone who called the councils was the emperor. Hence, ecumenical = "of the Emperor."

Antioch didn't care if others were put at higher spots, because Jesus taught the greatest in heaven will be servants on Earth. So Antioch didn't object, but Antioch did ask to be advisors to Constantinople and Rome, and there are cannons which state Antioch must be present at these decisions (which no one obeys anymore).
 
If you're going to read history and attach a narrative to it which wasn't at all in the minds of the people at the time (dividing an orthodox true church and catholic fake one) you ignore the original intent of what people are doing and why and become blinded by what you want to believe.

Even back when Peter was living he was torn between the extremes of James in Jerusalem and comparatively liberal approach of Paul and yet now he is the figure both sides try to grab onto and claim as 'theirs' for a specific branch of Christianity.

What Peter did well was unify the competing branches of Christianity for thousands of years.

To ignore the line of what he did in Rome and treat him like he is the character JIGSAW from the Saw franchises with a convoluted scheme to go to Rome for no real reason when actually he intended his line continued in Antioch is a completely revisionist reading of history and yet it's natural if you want to believe that Orthodox is the one true church.

There were battles about this whole 'what's the true Church?' thing while Peter and Paul were still living (between the two of them as well in Antioch) and what Peter ultimately did was unify these competing branches for a time.

I suppose one argument is that the Church was never intended to have 'leaders' but if you believe that why you still want to cling onto Peter and line of succession in Antioch?

If you want to let go of that and say the church is more a congregation of people much like it was in early Jerusalem times then why is that not the place you pick?

If you want to pick up Peterine primacy you can't just ignore Rome. It's at least equal to Antioch. What did Peter want to do? I think his goal was to spread the word of the church, unify it, and give it power and efficacy in the world. Rome is where that happened for a time.

I don't think he wanted us to be in cloistered disparate groups like Babylon victims.

How about if the terms and tribal association of Orthodox and Catholics were removed completely, what makes the most sense? And what were the people trying to do while they lived?

Were they trying to have us all living under regional Churches without formal titles or structures or trying to build a more structured and powerful Church organisaton?

If it's the latter, the path continues to Rome which continues to an idea of following a certain Peterine 'leader of the church.'

You can just not call it Catholicism if that word makes you uncomfortable, but I see more in line with those goals in one of these churches than the other.
 
Politics. Rome and Constantinople were the biggest cities of the day. The ecumenical councils, were councils of the emperor who held these cities in the highest regard.

Even in the Second and Fourth Ecumenical Councils, it was proposed that Constantinople have the 2nd place of honour after Rome, because at that time, Constantinople was the "New Rome" Rome fought this as Constantinople wasn't an apostolic see, Rome rejected these canons as Constantinople was a newer see, although in a remarkable coincidence it later affirmed post schism after the sack of Constantinople once the see was under Latin control. Strange how that works.

Have you read the 28th Canon that the pope rejected?

Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city. And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that, in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the Dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that, as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid Dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him.


Which Orthodox church are you even arguing for? The Russian one? The Ukranian one? The Armenian one? The Greek one? Just for context.

So now you are denying the primacy of Peter? If you follow the primacy of Peter, he ends up in Rome and his successor continues there. I repeat this point since you want to take it back to Antioch. Why not Jerusalem then?

I'm not arguing take my word for it. I'm actually trying to take myself out of the equating and look at it from the most logical stand point rather than what I see is an attempt to retroactively explain history to fit a certain narrative.

There was never really primacy. Consider the letter from St Gregory the Great to St John the Faster when the latter was given the title "Ecumenical Patriarch", but it was translated in Latin as "Universal Patriarch" . I'll highlight some portions for you.

At the time when your Fraternity was advanced to Sacerdotal dignity, you remember what peace and concord of the churches you found. But, with what daring or with what swelling of pride I know not, you have attempted to seize upon a new name, whereby the hearts of all your brethren might have come to take offense. I wonder exceedingly at this, since I remember how you would fain have fled from the episcopal office rather than attain it. And yet, now that you have got it, you desire so to exercise it as if you had run to it with ambitious intent. For, having confessed yourself unworthy to be called a bishop, you have at length been brought to such a pass as, despising your brethren, to covet to be named the only bishop....
Consider, I pray you, that in this rash presumption the peace of the whole Church is disturbed, and that it is in contradiction to the grace that is poured out on all in common; in which grace doubtless you yourself will have power to grow so far as you determine with yourself to do so. And you will become by so much the greater as you restrain yourself from the usurpation of a proud and foolish title: and you will make advance in proportion as you are not bent on arrogation by derogation of your brethren. Wherefore, dearest brother, with all your heart love humility, through which the concord of all the brethren and the unity of the holy universal Church may be preserved. Certainly the apostle Paul, when he heard some say, I am of Paul, I of Apollos, but I of Christ 1 Corinthians 1:13, regarded with the utmost horror such dilaceration of the Lord's body, whereby they were joining themselves, as it were, to other heads, and exclaimed, saying, Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul (ib.)? If then he shunned the subjecting of the members of Christ partially to certain heads, as if beside Christ, though this were to the apostles themselves, what will you say to Christ, who is the Head of the universal Church, in the scrutiny of the last judgment, having attempted to put all his members under yourself by the appellation of Universal? Who, I ask, is proposed for imitation in this wrongful title but he who, despising the legions of angels constituted socially with himself, attempted to start up to an eminence of singularity, that he might seem to be under none and to be alone above all?....
For what are all your brethren, the bishops of the universal Church, but stars of heaven, whose life and discourse shine together amid the sins and errors of men, as if amid the shades of night? And when you desire to put yourself above them by this proud title, and to tread down their name in comparison with yours, what else do you say but I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of heaven? Are not all the bishops together clouds, who both rain in the words of preaching, and glitter in the light of good works? And when your Fraternity despises them, and you would fain press them down under yourself, what else say you but what is said by the ancient foe, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds?....Certainly Peter, the first of the apostles, himself a member of the holy and universal Church, Paul, Andrew, John, — what were they but heads of particular communities? And yet all were members under one Head. And (to bind all together in a short girth of speech) the saints before the law, the saints under the law, the saints under grace, all these making up the Lord's Body, were constituted as members of the Church, and not one of them has wished himself to be called universal. Now let your Holiness acknowledge to what extent you swell within yourself in desiring to be called by that name by which no one presumed to be called who was truly holy.
Was it not the case, as your Fraternity knows, that the prelates of this Apostolic See which by the providence of God I serve, had the honour offered them of being called universal by the venerable Council of Chalcedon. But yet not one of them has ever wished to be called by such a title, or seized upon this ill-advised name, lest if, in virtue of the rank of the pontificate, he took to himself the glory of singularity, he might seem to have denied it to all his brethren.
And if that's not quite enough. It's fairly obvious that this was the way the Church acted from the beginning, for in Acts 1,
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the [f]disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”....
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

If there was really primacy (in the Roman Catholic sense) in the seat of Peter, why wouldn't he have shown it here, either by picking the proposed disciples, or choosing instead of leaving it up to casting lots?
 
If you want to pick up Peterine primacy you can't just ignore Rome. It's at least equal to Antioch. What did Peter want to do? I think his goal was to spread the word of the church, unify it, and give it power and efficacy in the world. Rome is where that happened for a time.

And this is exactly what I'm saying - they are equal. Both are surviving seats of Peter. Antioch in particular, to have survived the most intense persecution in the world, over 1500 years, is proof that it is a genuine Church with the grace of God inherited from Peter. The gates of hades did not prevail, and the fact I am here writing this to you, as a descendent of Antiochians, is further proof of this prophecy.

Therefore, it makes no sense for Rome to claim universal jurisdiction - Rome should return to the Church as founded by Peter, and share power, like Antioch does, with other major branches of Christ's Holy Vine. Rome is the little brother to Antioch, who became wildly successful and forgot his roots, and should look to his example. Rome is suffering now, because they forgot their roots, and let their success go to their head.

A return to humility in these troubled times is the wisest course of action, as it is obvious the Church is under judgement right now due to all of the schisms of the past 1000 years. Centuries of poor decisions have caught up with the Church and it is killing civilization, we are failing Christ's mission, and the Church itself is being pruned down to it's most faithful members. I believe this explains why the oldest branch of Christianity, the Antiochians, along with Churches aligned with us (such as Russia), are the only branches of Christianity growing today.

According to the Church Fathers (including many Roman popes), all bishops are the successors of St. Peter:

While this may be technically true, not all Churches are the seats of Peter. It's arguable that most Bishops are successors of many Apostles, since many Apostles were present during the laying of hands at the first Bishops consecrated, but it doesn't change which seat belongs to which Church, nor does it change which Bishop was the first of Peter's, who was St. Ignatius of Antioch.
 
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Ecumenical councils ordered the importance as Rome then Alexandria and then Antioch:

Cf. First Ecumenical Council (Nicaea, 325), canon 6: ‘The ancient customs of Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis shall be maintained, according to which the bishop of Alexandria has authority over all these places, since a similar custom exists with reference to the bishop of Rome. Similarly in Antioch and the other provinces, the prerogatives [presbeia] of the churches are to be preserved’; Second Ecumenical Council (Constantinople, 381), canon 3: Let the bishop of Constantinople … have the primacy of honour [presbeia tes times] after the bishop of Rome, because it is New Rome’; Fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon, 451), canon 28: ‘The Fathers rightly accorded prerogatives [presbeia] to the see of older Rome since that is an imperial city; and moved by the same purpose the one hundred and fifty most devout bishops apportioned equal prerogatives to the most holy see of New Rome, reasonably judging that the city which is honoured by the imperial power and senate and enjoying privileges equalling older imperial Rome, should also be elevated to her level in ecclesiastical affairs and take second place after her’ (this canon was never received in the West); Council in Trullo (692), canon 36: ‘Renewing the enactments of the one hundred and fifty Fathers assembled at the God-protected and imperial city, and those of the six hundred and thirty who met at Chalcedon, we decree that the see of Constantinople shall have equal privileges [presbeia] with the see of Old Rome, and shall be highly regarded in ecclesiastical matters as that see is and shall be second after it. After Constantinople shall be ranked the see of Alexandria, then that of Antioch, and afterwards the see of Jerusalem’.
 
Ecumenical councils ordered the importance as Rome then Alexandria and then Antioch:

Cf. First Ecumenical Council (Nicaea, 325), canon 6: ‘The ancient customs of Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis shall be maintained, according to which the bishop of Alexandria has authority over all these places, since a similar custom exists with reference to the bishop of Rome. Similarly in Antioch and the other provinces, the prerogatives [presbeia] of the churches are to be preserved’; Second Ecumenical Council (Constantinople, 381), canon 3: Let the bishop of Constantinople … have the primacy of honour [presbeia tes times] after the bishop of Rome, because it is New Rome’; Fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon, 451), canon 28: ‘The Fathers rightly accorded prerogatives [presbeia] to the see of older Rome since that is an imperial city; and moved by the same purpose the one hundred and fifty most devout bishops apportioned equal prerogatives to the most holy see of New Rome, reasonably judging that the city which is honoured by the imperial power and senate and enjoying privileges equalling older imperial Rome, should also be elevated to her level in ecclesiastical affairs and take second place after her’ (this canon was never received in the West); Council in Trullo (692), canon 36: ‘Renewing the enactments of the one hundred and fifty Fathers assembled at the God-protected and imperial city, and those of the six hundred and thirty who met at Chalcedon, we decree that the see of Constantinople shall have equal privileges [presbeia] with the see of Old Rome, and shall be highly regarded in ecclesiastical matters as that see is and shall be second after it. After Constantinople shall be ranked the see of Alexandria, then that of Antioch, and afterwards the see of Jerusalem’.

These are political, and not holy, considerations, in no way were any of these ranks meant to be that the higher rank could boss around the lower rank. It's been said in this thread many times that everyone who signed these councils understood this as such.

Rank had titles of honor, and considerations concerning disputes - if a Bishop of Jerusalem had a dispute with a Bishop of Alexandria, then they could appeal to Rome to settle the dispute. The ranks back then worked like a Supreme Court, not a Kingship.
 
If people are so fundamentally good, then why do they need a Savior in the first place?

Ridiculous.

(Francis isn't wrong in that clip.)

Because we live in a world that we can't make sense of, and would have no idea how to set things aright. Man is made in the image of God. And God is good, humans nature is good, damaged, but good. it's why someone would even use their will to try to move towards Christ in the first place and the journey towards Christ is to uncover that good from the darkness of sin that envelops us. If we were fundamentally evil (which is impossible, evil is nonexistence and has no identity), then there would be zero desire to draw closer Christ in anyone on the entire planet.

Since Jonathan Pageau was interviewed on a Catholic channel it probably belongs here, but he shows what I'm talking about. I've skipped the intro to start at a point where he's referring to Jordan Peterson's attempt to explain biblical stories, and it's probably the best starting point, if you listen for 20 minutes you'll be able to understand where Orthodox/Catholics come from, as this video is the best video I've seen Pageau explain the current culture in a way that anyone could understand.

 
(Francis isn't wrong in that clip.)

Because we live in a world that we can't make sense of, and would have no idea how to set things aright. Man is made in the image of God. And God is good, humans nature is good, damaged, but good. it's why someone would even use their will to try to move towards Christ in the first place and the journey towards Christ is to uncover that good from the darkness of sin that envelops us. If we were fundamentally evil (which is impossible, evil is nonexistence and has no identity), then there would be zero desire to draw closer Christ in anyone on the entire planet.

Since Jonathan Pageau was interviewed on a Catholic channel it probably belongs here, but he shows what I'm talking about. I've skipped the intro to start at a point where he's referring to Jordan Peterson's attempt to explain biblical stories, and it's probably the best starting point, if you listen for 20 minutes you'll be able to understand where Orthodox/Catholics come from, as this video is the best video I've seen Pageau explain the current culture in a way that anyone could understand.


I'm an Augustinian, not a Pelagian. Hence, my original comment that many Protestants are more Catholic than the Pope is.

Given Orthodoxy's Pelagianism and general detestation of Augustine, you can add that to another reason why I'm not Orthodox.
 
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