2025 Bible Study Group

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Genesis 17

God christens Abram as Abraham. It was God's plan that through Abraham, Christ would come and all the nations of the world would believe in Him, this is what it means for Abraham to become a father of many nations.

Circumcision is given as a sign of the covenant. To become a Jew, you had to be circumcised. There is a physical and spiritual side to the Abrahamic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant both relate to the Abrahamic Covenant.

Paul's argument in Romans 4 is that Christians enjoy the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant, in the New Covenant, through faith alone, citing the fact that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised through faith alone, thus circumcision is not necessary for Christians to enjoy the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant.

For the Jews, one could not be a part of the Mosaic Covenant unless one was circumcised, thus one could not be a son of a Abraham and enjoy the benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant unless they were circumcised. Circumcision was necessary. It's easy to see why the Judaizers would find so many followers in the Apostolic Church.

God also christens Sarai as Sarah and says she will be a mother of nations. Paul in Galatians 4 says that Christians are born of the free woman, Sarah. She is the matriarch of those who believe, just as Abraham is the patriarch of those who believe.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Here's a couple of things I missed that I wanted to share with you guys:

Genesis 11

We've covered the Tower of Babel but I wanted to plug in what Deuteronomy has to say about it.

Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of God. 9 For Yahweh’s portion is His people; Jacob is the allotment of His inheritance.

When God dispersed the peoples from Babel, He gave the nations over to the angels, who abused them. The nations then worshiped the angels as gods, not knowing that they are nothing but demons. As Babel is an echo of the Fall, so too is this punishment. Satan says that the world was "given" to him when he tempts Christ. It was given to him because Adam did not exercise his dominion according to God, but rather obeyed the devil. All of the world is going to hell, but God has preserved His own people through His righteous King, who unlike Adam, "always does the things that please God."

Genesis 12

5So Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions which they had accumulated, and the persons which they had acquired in Haran, and they departed to go forth to the land of Canaan; thus they came to the land of Canaan.

A more literal translation would say: "and the souls he had created in Haran."

Abraham is identified as a soul-maker, but what does this mean? It means that Abraham was the first Evangelist. There is a likening of converting someone and creation. A connection between redemption and creation. People are dead, empty, they are not truly alive until they come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. The only way to truly be alive is to be in Jesus Christ.

Paul picks up on this in Romans 4:
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be according to grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the seed, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all— 17as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”—in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

There is a reason the world has identified the monotheistic religions as the Abrahamic religions. Abraham preached that there is only one true God, only one true way, only one true life, even Jesus Christ.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Genesis 18

God and His two angels visit Abraham under the Oaks of Mamre, where Abraham would pitch his tent, where he would tabernacle. Abraham welcomes Yahweh as a most-honored guest, he hurriedly prepares a great meal for Him and washes His feet. Abraham goes above and beyond in His worship of God, and it is fitting, for God goes above and beyond in His service to Abraham. As sons of Abraham according to the faith, our disposition and worship of God ought to look like this, and when His Spirit works in us, it does look like this.

In John 8, Jesus says that Abraham lived to His day, he saw it, and was glad. In response, the Jews tried to stone Him because they knew He was claiming to be God, because God did indeed visit Abraham.

John 13:6 So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, “Lord, are You going to wash my feet?” 7Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not realize now, but you will understand afterwards.” 8Peter said to Him, “You will never wash my feet—ever!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”

Just as Abraham washes God's feet, Jesus washes Peter's feet. God's sons give all to God and God gives all to His sons. The relationship is complete and the New Covenant is unbreakable.

God tells Abraham that Sarah will have a son in a year's time. In unbelief, she laughs at God's word, not knowing that God can hear her. When God calls Sarah out and replies that nothing is too difficult for Him, Sarah, in fear, tries to justify herself with a lie: "I did not laugh." But God confirms that she did. Abraham had laughed at the same word a chapter earlier, and so God tells Abraham that he will name his son Issac, which means laughter.

All humor is rooted in irony and this story is packed with much irony. Based on Abraham and Sarah's age, for God to say that they will have a son comes across as ridiculous. As ridiculous as Noah warning people in the middle of the desert that God will flood the world. As ridiculous as us saying that a Jewish preacher who was crucified 2,000 years ago is the answer to all of the world's problems. In a world full of liars, the one telling the truth is the clown. But Paul was content with being a clown, a "fool for Christ."

 

[Tippy]

Genesis 17:

Found this part a bit odd:
'Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”'

Is this cannon or have ideas about circumcision changed over time?

Genesis 18:

This passage appeared significant:

'
13And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.'

I don't know what to read into it except that God can make even the ridiculous possible.

'And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”'

What's this? Is God going down to check out S and G? This seems very human like God needs to do some detective work.

And finally this part:

"32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.'

This is one of the more memorable parts of the Bibiel. What about for 1? What if only 1?


Also this iteration of God is particularly unforgiving. Would these sinners destroyed by God be in hell for ever? Shouldn't everyone get a shot at repentence? Does God continue to eliminate people who don't meet his standards like a mob boss.?

My only way of dealing with questions I cannot answer is to try to have faith that God is not operating on a plane of morality I can understand with my human mind. So while taking out a city of sinners appears an over reaction I suppose it's not for me to judge.

Anyway my interpretation of this part of the Bible is that even a few good eggs can have large impact and 'save' a place. I take it that way rather than as a literal thing. Perhaps I'm wrong in that.

 

[Bizet]

Genesis 19-20

Some modern progressive churches suggest that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their lack of hospitality, rather than their immoral behaviour. However, the New Testament says otherwise...

According to Jude, the two cities were condemned for "sexual immorality and perversion" (Jude 1:7).

Similarly, Simon Peter attributes their downfall to “corrupt desire of the flesh” (2 Peter 2:6-10).

Today's reading made me really reflect on Lot’s wife. Despite being commanded not to look back at the city, she disobeyed and was turned into a pillar of salt.

Her story serves as a powerful metaphor about clinging to the past: when God moves your life in a new direction, accept it. Don't long for the past. Don’t look back.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Genesis 18

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is more profound than we often give it credit for. It is a warning against homosexuality, but it's also much more than that. It reveals truth about God's Justice and Judgement. In every judgement, from the expulsion of Adam from the Garden, the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc, there is a shadow of the final eschatological judgement when God will judge the world.

God deliberates over if He should show Abraham what He's going to do to Sodom. He decides that Abraham should know the justice of God so that Abraham and his descendents could follow the justice of God. It's the same as in Romans 9: God makes His wrath known so that His people might know His glory.

Abraham wrestles with God's justice, as we do, and asks God if He would spare the wicked on account of the righteous, which God says He would do. Even if there were 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 righteous people, God would spare the whole city because God is also gracious. I have no doubt that Abraham could've talked God down to one righteous person and God would've agreed. But as Psalms and Romans say: "there is none righteous, not even one."

If we believe that Man is naturally good, by necessity we will come to view God as evil. This is because God is opposed to Man. One must be good, the other must be evil. As James says: "whoever wants to be friends with the world makes himself an enemy of God."

Genesis 19

The Sodomites get blinded by the angels, and instead of packing it up and going home, "they wearied themselves trying to get to the door." It's a stunning indictment of the evil of Man. Even when God humbles the evil, they will still persist in their evil. They are just like Pharoah, who after being greatly humbled by God over and over again, rushes headlong into the Red Sea in order to kill the Israelites. They are just like Satan, who after being thrown out of Paradise, still does everything he can to usurp God's throne.

14And Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, “Get up, get out of this place, for Yahweh will destroy the city.” But he appeared to his sons-in-law to be jesting.

There it is again. Lot plays the role of God's clown. The truth of God is clownish to the upside down world.

15 Now at the breaking of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Get up, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of Yahweh was upon him; and they brought him out and put him outside the city.

The angels told Lot what to do, Lot fails to do it, and instead of leaving Lot in the city, the angels take Lot by the hand and bring him out of the city according to God's compassion. That is exactly how Jesus saves us.

24And Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven.

The Yahweh on Earth rained fire and brimstone from Yahweh out of Heaven. Christ rains judgement from the Father.

Lot's wife looks back to the destroyed city of man and turns into a pillar of salt. This theme is carried throughout the entire Bible, the Israelites miss Egypt and look back, but Jesus says that whoever sets his hand to the plow but looks back is not worthy of the Kingdom of God. Paul says that he does not look back, "forgetting what lies behind and reaching towards what lies ahead."

Abraham wakes up early the next morning, looks down at Sodom and Gomorrah, and sees that the "smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace."

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in My anger, And it burns down to the lowest part of Hell.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

People must be warned about Hell. If they will not stop worshipping the devil, and continue to refuse worshipping Jesus, then Hell is the only thing that they can be sure of.

 

[Iakobos]

Genesis 17:

Found this part a bit odd:
'Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”'

Is this cannon or have ideas about circumcision changed over time?

See Acts 15

What's this? Is God going down to check out S and G? This seems very human like God needs to do some detective work.

In cases like this in Scripture, God condescends to be anthropomorphized so that we may better understand Him. When God is described as feeling anger or wrath, it is not like human anger or wrath, when we lose control of ourselves to our passions. But it is the closest analogue we have to be able to understand. Similarly God's love is not like human love, and so forth.

Also this iteration of God is particularly unforgiving. Would these sinners destroyed by God be in hell for ever? Shouldn't everyone get a shot at repentence? Does God continue to eliminate people who don't meet his standards like a mob boss.?

Did they not have their shot at repentance? Death can come for any of us at any time, hence the importance of immediate repentance in this life while we are still in it. Their fate is ultimately no less 'fair' than a young innocent dying in a car accident.

---

BTW very pleased to see this thread thriving. Wish I had the time to participate more but this is exactly the kind of content I'd hoped to see on CIK.

 

[WaveMechanic]

Genesis 18

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is more profound than we often give it credit for. It is a warning against homosexuality, but it's also much more than that. It reveals truth about God's Justice and Judgement. In every judgement, from the expulsion of Adam from the Garden, the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc, there is a shadow of the final eschatological judgement when God will judge the world.

God deliberates over if He should show Abraham what He's going to do to Sodom. He decides that Abraham should know the justice of God so that Abraham and his descendents could follow the justice of God. It's the same as in Romans 9: God makes His wrath known so that His people might know His glory.

Abraham wrestles with God's justice, as we do, and asks God if He would spare the wicked on account of the righteous, which God says He would do. Even if there were 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 righteous people, God would spare the whole city because God is also gracious. I have no doubt that Abraham could've talked God down to one righteous person and God would've agreed. But as Psalms and Romans say: "there is none righteous, not even one."

If we believe that Man is naturally good, by necessity we will come to view God as evil. This is because God is opposed to Man. One must be good, the other must be evil. As James says: "whoever wants to be friends with the world makes himself an enemy of God."

Genesis 19

The Sodomites get blinded by the angels, and instead of packing it up and going home, "they wearied themselves trying to get to the door." It's a stunning indictment of the evil of Man. Even when God humbles the evil, they will still persist in their evil. They are just like Pharoah, who after being greatly humbled by God over and over again, rushes headlong into the Red Sea in order to kill the Israelites. They are just like Satan, who after being thrown out of Paradise, still does everything he can to usurp God's throne.


There it is again. Lot plays the role of God's clown. The truth of God is clownish to the upside down world.


The angels told Lot what to do, Lot fails to do it, and instead of leaving Lot in the city, the angels take Lot by the hand and bring him out of the city according to God's compassion. That is exactly how Jesus saves us.


The Yahweh on Earth rained fire and brimstone from Yahweh out of Heaven. Christ rains judgement from the Father.

Lot's wife looks back to the destroyed city of man and turns into a pillar of salt. This theme is carried throughout the entire Bible, the Israelites miss Egypt and look back, but Jesus says that whoever sets his hand to the plow but looks back is not worthy of the Kingdom of God. Paul says that he does not look back, "forgetting what lies behind and reaching towards what lies ahead."

Abraham wakes up early the next morning, looks down at Sodom and Gomorrah, and sees that the "smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace."


People must be warned about Hell. If they will not stop worshipping the devil, and continue to refuse worshipping Jesus, then Hell is the only thing that they can be sure of.

Makes me think of Proverbs 9:10

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

 

[Tippy]

Genesis 19


5 '5They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”'

This part seems to be a castigation on homosexuality and Lot’s preparedness to give up virgin daughers rather than his men seems odd to our modern eyes

12 Angels question lot
'12The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”


I always wonder about the idea of guardian angels. It’s useful to have an angel give you a hint that they’re about to destroy a city and communicate so directly as here.


Famous warning not to look back in 19:17

'17As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”'



32 – '32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.'

Daughters getting Dad drunk to have sex with him and (generally) in Genesis there’s a lot of deceptions and the truth being not as it seems


Surprised God does not chime in to condemn this deception if I’m honest



Genesis 20

Abraham presents wife as sister (again?)

God seems to intervene directly to prevent sinning against wife from the king Abimelech


Have to admit I don’t understand 20:18 – ‘For the lord caused all the women to be infertile because of what happened with Abraham’s wife, Sarah ‘

What exactly happened with the wife? She just was nearly slept with due to Abraham and then saved by God. Nothing actually happened, right?

 

[Samseau]

Too often the story of Sodom is used to castigate homosexuals, but Sodomites were far worse than mere homosexuals.

They were homosexual rapists, and this indicated they were into crimes far worse than what is described in the Bible; that Lot offered his young virgin daughters strongly indicates that they were also pedophiles; that they used violence to take what they wanted indicates they were thieves and murderers; by all rational analysis the Sodomites were wicked demons who indulged in all evils, not merely homosexuality.

So while 99% of people use Sodom as a story against homosexuality, in reality, it took far more than gay sex to incur God's wrath. These people were simply possessed on every level and beyond redemption. Homosexuality is used to indicate their level of evil, but in reality 99% of homosexuals will not rise to the level of evil of a Sodomite or Gomorrahan.

People miss just how evil these people were by focusing on homosexuality.

Also, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is not just a story, but a true historical account that scars the earth to this day:

It is approximately 8 kilometres (5 mi) long, 5 kilometres (3 mi)wide, and 226 metres (742 ft) above the Dead Sea water level, yet170 metres (557 ft) below world mean sea level. Because of weathering, some portions have separated. One of these pillars is known as "Lot's wife",[4] in reference to the Biblical account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Mount Sodom is a massive mountain of 80% salt, and rises a quarter of a mile high, despite being almost a quarter of a mile below sea level!!

Where Sodom and Gomorrah once existed is now a crater called the Dead Sea:

As of 2019, the lake's surface is 430.5 metres (1,412 ft) below sea level,[4][7] making its shores the lowest land-based elevation on Earth. It is 304 m (997 ft) deep, the deepest hypersaline lake in the world. With a salinity of 342 g/kg, or 34.2% (in 2011), it is one of the world's saltiest bodies of water[8] – 9.6 times as salty as the ocean – and has a density of 1.24 kg/litre, which makes swimming similar to floating.[9][10] This salinity makes for a harsh environment in which plants and animals cannot flourish, hence its name. The Dead Sea's main, northern basin is 50 kilometres (31 mi) long and 15 kilometres (9 mi) wide at its widest point.[1]

It's a massive crater nearly half a mile below sea level, filled with so much salt it is 10x as salty as the ocean. Truly the destruction God rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah was terrible as it was epic. Because the crater is so deep into the ground, rain water has collected there over the millennia, resulting a massive salt lake.

It's fun to read the Wikipedia article entries of ridiculous secular theories of how the Dead Sea came to be, none of which make any sense and are "just-so" stories created by atheists to try and sound intelligent.

The lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah is also contained in the death of Lot's wife, as well as all of those who were warned by God but did not flee.

For the Bible tells us that God not only warned Lot, but Lot went out to his friends and family and also warned them, but all thought Lot was insane. And so, only Lot and his family survived, for even Lot did not leave until the last second, at the urging of God's angels.

And the instructions to leave was not to turn back; yet Lot's wife turned back and was destroyed (mineralized). When we turn a new page into our life with God, we must be prepared to leave everything else behind and look forward to the Kingdom of God.

"For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

Lot's wife was not prepared to lose her old life in Sodom, and turns back only to be destroyed. Only Lot and his daughters, who obey the Lord and look forward to that which is come are spared, and indeed inherit a new life.

Finally, another fascinating point of reference is that this is one of 3 events in the Bible where we can deduce God directly revealed himself to the world - the other two we know for a fact are with Moses, who sees a bit of God's back because God explains to reveal himself fully would destroy Moses, and during the Transfiguration of Christ, where Peter, James, and John, are able to see the true nature of Christ and are utterly blinded by his glory. The uncreated light is so much to bear it overwhelms them.

Thus we can deduce from Moses and the Transfiguration that God also directly revealed himself to Sodom and Gomorrah as he rained fire and brimstone, but Lot's wife turned around to witness God and was instantly destroyed, just as He told Moses. So the reason God told Lot and his family not to turn around was for their own safety, but God could not explain this to Lot or his family. They simply had to trust God, because God knows more than we can ever know or understand and we must trust Him the same way a child trusts his parent. Those who disobey are destroyed, not because God wants them to suffer, but because of our frail nature.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Genesis 19

Lot's daughters give birth to the Ammonites and Moabites, who are recurring villains to the Israelites.

Zephaniah 2:9 Surely Moab will be like Sodom And the sons of Ammon like Gomorrah— A place possessed by nettles and salt pits, And a perpetual desolation.

It seems that no other nation has been able to avoid Sodom's idolatry and it's doom.

Romans 9:29 And just as Isaiah foretold, “UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A SEED, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

Only through the seed does anyone avoid the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 20

There is a parallel story in this and Genesis 12, when Pharoah had taken Sarai from Abraham. In a foreshadowing of the Exodus, God had struck Pharoah and his house with plagues which forced him to let Sarah go and to send Abraham away.

When Abimelech takes Sarah, God threatens him and his entire nation with the curse of death. Abimelech justifies himself via ignorance of the fact that she is Abraham's wife. God says that He held Abimelech back from sinning against Him and did not allow Abimelech to touch her. Therein is the doctrine of restraining grace: God keeps us from being as big of sinners as we would otherwise be, which we almost never thank Him for but rather take credit for.

Abimelech lets Sarah go and blesses Abraham. Always true to His word, God blesses Abimelech and his house for blessing Abraham.

 

[WaveMechanic]

My only contribution today is this thread is really great. I appreciate all the awesome contributions by others which are providing some really good insights. I never would have suspected Genesis would provide so many valuable lessons to my modern life. Thank you everyone, and God bless you all.

 

[Wutang]

To the point about about placing the Tree in the Garden, I find it interesting that Adam doesn't eat the fruit until after God had made it a prohibition. It reminds me of Paul in Romans 7:

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the Law sin is dead. 9Now I was once alive apart from the Law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to lead to life, was found to lead to death for me. 11For sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

It's as if God prohibiting the fruit aroused Adam to sin. Not that God tempted him, for He tempts no one, but that our sinful nature desires to sin. Paul will go on to emphasize that it is not God's Law, His legal prohibitions, that are bad, but that they give the sinfulness within us opportunity to manifest and even arouses it. The added irony in Adam is that he had no sin nature and yet still chose to sin.

Just started reading through this thread today so I'm way behind but I felt the need to comment on this. St. Augustine actually has a story in his autobiography where he talks about how his friends and him in their youths used to go steal pears off a tree; not because they just had to eat pears or else but for the thrill of stealing and doing something naughty. When I saw this post I couldn't believe how closely it matched what St. Augustine had written about his motivations for doing what he did.

 

[Bizet]

To be honest, I'm struggling to find any insights or spiritual lessons from today's reading (Gen 21-22).

I don't want to spam this thread with low-quality posts, so I'm going to sit this one out.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

My only contribution today is this thread is really great. I appreciate all the awesome contributions by others which are providing some really good insights. I never would have suspected Genesis would provide so many valuable lessons to my modern life. Thank you everyone, and God bless you all.

I love Genesis. You can see how it truly provides the foundation for the entire Bible. It presents a cohesive, meaningful, expansive, consistent worldview. Even if the Bible was made up of Genesis alone, it would've been good enough for us. But God went above and beyond by inspiring the rest.

Genesis 21

God visits Sarah as He said and does for her what He promised to do. She gives birth to Issac. She goes from laughing at God to laughing with God, realizing that He can make the ridiculous into a reality.

9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, laughing in jest.

Ishmael laughs at Issac.
Paul says in Galatians 4 that both Sarah, the free woman, and Hagar, the slave woman, serve as an allegory. Hagar represents the Mosaic Covenant: flesh, works, Law. Sarah represents the New Covenant: Spirit, faith, Grace.

Galatians 4:28 And you brothers, in accordance with Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh was persecuting him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

Those who try to be justified by works persecute those who are justified by faith. It's the same enmity that goes all the way back to Cain and Abel. The seed of the serpent is at enmity with the seed of the woman.

Ishmael will not inherit the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant, but he will still be blessed through Abraham, being his son according to the flesh. The Arabs descend from Ishmael.

Abraham sends Hagar and Ishmael away into the wilderness. When things begin to look hopeless for them, God hears their cries and provides for them.

It has become a popular byword that "God helps those who help themselves." The irony is that people say it as religious truth, under the false impression that it comes from the Bible. To the contrary, God helps those who cannot help themselves. If someone could help themselves, what do they need God for? Apart from Him we can do nothing.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Genesis 22

God gives Abraham the final test: sacrifice his only beloved son Issac. Abraham spent most of his long life wanting a son. It's no doubt why he loved his nephew Lot like a son. He loved Ishmael but let him go according to God's promise. Now God is asking him to sacrifice Issac. How then would God's promise, that Abraham would become a father of many nations be fulfilled? Abraham had every reason to doubt, but he did not doubt.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only son, 18to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED.” 19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he also received him back.

Abraham typifies Christ as Priest, the one making the offering. Issac typifies Christ as Sacrifice, the one being offered. Christ is both Priest and Sacrifice, the one making the offering and the one being offered. Not offered to us, but offered to God for us.

10And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11But the angel of Yahweh called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12And He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the boy, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me.”

Even though Abraham had not experientially carried out the act, the Angel of the Lord sees Abraham's inward disposition, a heart of faith, and treats Abraham as though Abraham did carry out the act.

13Then Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, there was a ram after it had been caught in the thicket by its horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.

Abraham sacrifices the ram in the place of his son, it's sacrifice is substitutionary, and yet this ram is not the Lamb of God that Abraham knows God will still provide.

Jesus is both the son of Abraham and the Son of God. He is the Mediator between God and Man.

 

[Gazza]

Chapter 22 verse 12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” Abraham was so reverently fearful of God, that withholding a knife from his son’s throat wasn’t even an option! I’ve mentioned it a few times previously here on CIK, my first thoughts toward God as a young child were fearful. It’s written over and over in scripture. Just wish more people would understand it.

 

[Tippy]

21 - The Birth of Isaac

And so comes the hilarious joke of old Sarah giving birth. Haha! Good one.

The whole Ishmal (son of servant with Hagar) being jealous of Isaac has some mirroring of Cain and Abel.

In general, I see many doubles in the Bible.

One question to ask is if there is absolute morality about husbands/wives why in the Old Testament does it seem OK to have kids with side chick servants?

I remember taking a Bible Studies class back in University of which I remember little except the lecturer said that one of the key themes in the Bible was about father's.

God is the father but so many of the stories is about issues relating to father's and this is another one.

I feel like this thing with Abimelech came up before? (by the way Abimelech is a name which seems to have gone out of style in the West).

22 Abraham's Faith Tested

When I studied the Bible as a kid, we had a class on stories of the Old Testament and this was one of the most memorable (and disturbing). When God orders Abraham to kill Isaac only to stop him at the last minute as a reward for proving he would do anything him, it appears quie cruel. Even vindictive.

One question I ask about this story (as well as the Old Testament) is this - am I supposed to believe this actually happened? Or am I supposed to read this story as a key to a moral message - that we should obey God regardless of whether this means sacrificing what is dearest to us and will be rewarded for our faith even if we can't see it at the time decisions for sacrifice are made?

 

[Bizet]

The whole Ishmal (son of servant with Hagar) being jealous of Isaac has some mirroring of Cain and Abel.

Yeah, during our reading of Genesis, I've noticed the same stories seems to play out over and over. Esau’s decision to give up his birthright for food (coming up soon in Genesis 25) mirrors Adam and Eve’s decision to eat the forbidden fruit. I see it as a lesson: in a fallen state, humanity is doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

One question I ask about this story (as well as the Old Testament) is this - am I supposed to believe this actually happened? Or am I supposed to read this story as a key to a moral message - that we should obey God regardless of whether this means sacrificing what is dearest to us and will be rewarded for our faith even if we can't see it at the time decisions for sacrifice are made?

Roosh used to say that if your faith isn't quite there yet, you should just view these stories as metaphors

 

[Wutang]

Something I would tell an atheist is that if the Bible was just written by humans without God inspiring them it seems like it was written by humans tha have an insight into human nature that seems much greater then you would expect from "a bunch of primitive goat herders in the desert" (a common attack I would see from Internet atheists when they would try to disparage the writers of the Bible) and that the themes in it seem to arise over and over again in human history in a way the writers themselves weren't even aware of during the time they were physically putting the words down - in other words they seemed to be getting insight without making use of human capabilities in the way a modern person would be using the science of psychology and his own reasoning to come up with theories on human nature.