2025 Bible Study Group

My Bishop instructs everyone that "seven" is the number which represents everything.

7 days to creation = 7 to create everything.
7 days a week = one set of 7 leads into the next 7, unending, forever.

Hence 7 = infinity. 7 is the number of God, and 6 is the number of Satan since it's short of 1 day from perfection. It's the day before man is created, so valuing 6 means killing all men.
 
Samseau said:
6 is the number of Satan since it's short of 1 day from perfection. It's the day before man is created, so valuing 6 means killing all men.
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This is pretty mind-blowing. It's something I’d never considered before. Beyond 666 being the number of the beast, a few other connections come to mind:

Man was created on the sixth day, possibly signifying humanity’s inferiority to God.

Nebuchadnezzar’s golden statue stood 60 cubits high and 6 cubits wide, suggesting an anti-God system.

EDIT: sorry, I misread your post. You say it's one day before man was created, but my understanding is that man was created on the 6th day, so now I'm a little confused. Could you maybe explain this theory a bit more? Thanks
 
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Today I heard a sermon that actually pointed the significance of the number 7 in Scripture. Another instance of 7 being significant are the 7 churches that are mentioned in Revelation.
 
Bizet said:
This is pretty mind-blowing. It's something I’d never considered before. Beyond 666 being the number of the beast, a few other connections come to mind:

Man was created on the sixth day, possibly signifying humanity’s inferiority to God.

Nebuchadnezzar’s golden statue stood 60 cubits high and 6 cubits wide, suggesting an anti-God system.

EDIT: sorry, I misread your post. You say it's one day before man was created, but my understanding is that man was created on the 6th day, so now I'm a little confused. Could you maybe explain this theory a bit more? Thanks
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You're right, man was created on the sixth day. My mistake. 7th day was the day of rest. Scratch that part, the point about number 7 stands, but I deduced incorrectly about 6. Not sure why it's the devil's number.
 
Bizet said:
Esau’s physical description adds layers of symbolism. His hairy body and skill as a hunter suggest a primal, beastly nature, representing the fleshly desires. His red appearance may symbolize his earthly, carnal nature: red being the color of clay, which reminds us of humanity’s creation from the dust of the earth.

Alternatively, it could symbolise blood, hinting at his disregard for the spiritual inheritance tied to his bloodline.

Even the stew he trades his birthright for is red. Genesis is incredibly rich in symbolism!
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I've been thinking about this, and another possible explanation I've come up with is the story of Esau and Jacob in Genesis is a foreshadowing of John the Baptist and Jesus...
  1. Esau was a rugged outdoorsman, a hunter living off the land, while John the Baptist lived in the wilderness, wearing camel hair and eating locusts and wild honey.
  2. Esau's most distinct feature was his red, hairy body, which could be compared to John’s camel hair clothing.
  3. Esau was strong but was not the chosen one; Jacob received the blessing. Similarly, John the Baptist was a great prophet but always pointed to Jesus as the true Messiah.
  4. Esau was the firstborn but was ultimately surpassed by Jacob, just as John the Baptist came before Jesus but declared, "He must increase, but I must decrease." (John 3:30)
Of course, there are major differences: Jacob used deception, whereas Jesus was perfect.
 
Genesis 30-31

These chapters illustrate Jesus' words: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5). Rachel, though beautiful and admired by many, struggles with infertility, while Leah, though overlooked, is blessed by God with many children, whose descendants would quite literally inherit the land.

Another noteworthy event is Rachel’s exchange with Leah, where she trades a night with Jacob for mandrakes, which were believed in pagan cultures to enhance fertility. However, Rachel does not conceive until she prays to God, teaching us an important lesson: true blessings come from trusting in the Lord, not in superstitions or worldly remedies. This is echoed in Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding."

Later, as Jacob prepares to return home with his wives, children, and the flocks he acquired, he is confronted by Laban's sons, who accuse him of stealing their father’s wealth. Jacob argues that Laban has deceived him and changed his wages ten times. This is a case of reaping what one sows, as Jacob himself had deceived his elder brother, Esau.

Finally, Rachel steals Laban’s household idols. To me this suggests that she still harbored some attachment to her father. This highlights a recurring theme in Genesis: leaving behind your old life to fully follow God.
 
Genesis 28

Issac sends Jacob to his brother-in-law to find a wife, mimicking Abraham. Seeing that Issac did not favor a Canaanite wife for the bloodline of promise, Esau takes a wife from Ishmael's family, perhaps as a way to amend for his two Hittite wives, though he could not even get this right. This marriage preference of the patriarchs ministers to us today. The Scripture tells us not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, marry a fellow Christian.

On his way to Laban, Jacob takes a rock for his pillow and has a dream. Both the rock and the dream are Christological. He is resting on the rock, after being practically exiled. He dreams of a ladder that reaches from earth to heaven with angels ascending and descending on it and God standing above it. God promises that He will fulfill his covenant promises through Jacob.

John 1:50 Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51And He said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see THE HEAVENS OPENED AND THE ANGELS OF GOD ASCENDING AND DESCENDING on the Son of Man.”
The ladder is a symbol of Christ. The only Mediator between God and men. The blessings of the Covenant are fulfilled only in Him.

When Jacob awakes, he fills joy at God's word, but he also feels fear. Not a fear of judgement, which is reserved for the reprobate, but a fear of reverence and piety. When Issac realized he had been duped by Jacob earlier, he trembled exceedingly. Not out of anger towards Jacob, but out of fear and reverence that everything that happened was orchestrated by the hand of God. We too must fear God in all reverence and piety, knowing that He will accomplish all His purpose.

Genesis 29

Laban plays Jacob. Instead of giving him Rachel as was agreed upon, He gives Leah to Jacob. What goes around comes around. Jacob was not wrong to be zealous for the covenant, nor was he wrong to want to be in the covenant. But he was wrong to pursue the covenant as if it were by his own works, by deceiving his father and brother, rather than to inherit the covenant by faith, which even before he was born, God had promised to give to him. Because Jacob showed partiality to Rachel over Leah, God blessed Leah to conceive while Rachel remained barren. Even for God to open the womb of one and shut the womb of another is a demonstration of sovereignty on His part, that the covenant will only be fulfilled according to His work, timing, and purpose, and not according to human works.

Another application that I think we can take away from this passage: because Jacob loved Rachel, the seven years he spent working for her "seemed to him a few short days." If we love God, His commandments do not seem burdensome to us. If we do not love Him, then His commandments are heavy, even impossible. That is the difference between faith and works. Faith that God can do more than we ask or think, and that He will give us more than we think possible. Works is the idea that God is a harsh taskmaster, stern and impossible to please, so that we are forever left working in futile, arduous efforts to please Him.

Jacob would not have worked seven long years for Leah. So it was under the guise of working for Rachel that he was given Leah, in order that all of God's purpose would stand. You see that God is able to use the deceitfulness of men to accomplish His truth, and if God is able to turn your lie into truth, how much more will He use your truth?
 
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Genesis 30

Rachel gives her servant-woman to Jacob in order to receive sons through her. When Bilhah does conceive, Rachel boasts that she is now superior to her sister, Leah. Then Leah gives her servant-woman to Jacob, who also bears him a son. Rachel was the last to bear. The strife and contention in Jacob's house is all the evidence one needs to see that God did not design man for polygamy, but from the beginning, one man and one woman to become one flesh.

Because God's blessing was on Jacob, Laban desired to keep him around. But seeing his uncle's selfishness and cruelty, Jacob desired to return to his own land.

Genesis 31

Jacob takes all of his property and flees with his family, not letting Laban know that he was leaving, lying by omission. When Laban realizes Jacob had fled, he pursued Jacob. God warned Laban in a dream about how he should conduct himself towards Jacob.

Laban eventually does catch up to Jacob, and tells him that he wants to harm him, but will not on account of God's warning. Hilariously, he says that it is in his hand to harm Jacob, but what could he do against the power of God? He still talks to Jacob dishonestly, acting as if Jacob had stolen from him. But his ultimate concern is why Jacob had stolen his gods, his idols. Laban understood that the deity is not enclosed within the idol, but that through the idol, he could worship his gods.

Jacob defends his case, and gives the glory to God that God has made him rich. Laban ceases and cuts a covenant with Jacob. You see projection from Laban. The purpose of his covenant is so that neither would harm the other, but it was not Jacob who threatened Laban, but the other way around. Wicked men love to project their evil onto others, so that while being victimizers, they pretend to be victims. It is a false justification.

Jacob, being a godly man, remains appeasable and seeks peace with his uncle, though he does not swear by God to Laban's covenant, but by his father Issac. He knows that God will vindicate his case. We should be of the same faith, knowing that we will be unjustly accused and threatened, but God will vindicate our case in the end.

Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
 
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Godfather, have you seen Sam Shamoun's talks on the predestination and free will topics? He states that he was formerly a calvinist but points out what always bothered him. I think you would find them fruitful.
 
Blade Runner said:
Godfather, have you seen Sam Shamoun's talks on the predestination and free will topics? He states that he was formerly a calvinist but points out what always bothered him. I think you would find them fruitful.
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I've watched some videos of his. He's a very knowledgeable guy but he strikes me as uncharitable. He used to be friends with two pastors I follow but burned those bridges in a pretty bad way. I'll get around to listening to him more. If you want to, send me any videos of his that you like.
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
I've watched some videos of his. He's a very knowledgeable guy but he strikes me as uncharitable. He used to be friends with two pastors I follow but burned those bridges in a pretty bad way. I'll get around to listening to him more. If you want to, send me any videos of his that you like.
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Yes, he's had an interesting arc, and he clearly knows the scriptures well and obviously the islamic ones to boot. I think he is getting better on the charitable part, and he's evolved in many ways, as you might also know his path. You know how it is, to be an apologist and to be constantly pouring over arguments and texts it takes a type of personality, and that includes the masculine trait of disagreeableness. We all have it here because we're interested in the truth and that means you have to sacrifice things like that, to some degree or another, to find it. Inerrancy holders are even more prone to it, as you may know since it's sorta built in. By the way, a commenter said that (not to rehash but it was along the lines of what I had stated a while back) we are predestined to walk the path that the human being must, given that we all are made in the image of God (I would add that we must die and are raised also, since all are, to be judged). That's what I was getting at. He has comments on the salvation and reward/rank axis too which are interesting, as I think one of the most important teaching points of life in the universe is that this equality stuff needs to be generally done away with, since none of us are equal in this age, or in the age to come. That might be another thread in and of itself.
 
TruckDriver9 said:
I want to let You know that although I don't post in this thread, I read it whenever it gets updated. Keep up the good work.
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Same. Whenever I see the notification for this thread I always immediately jump here to read the commentary. I been working to catch up on the reading myself personally. I just got to the part where Ishmael and his mother flee the camp and are given water by an angel. Please continue on with this to the end even if it doesn't seem like other people are commenting on here.
 
Genesis 32-33

Gen 32 says that Jacob wrestled with God, but did he really?

At first, I had my doubts. If this wrestler was truly God, surely He could've overpowered Jacob with ease.

To me, it seemed more likely that Jacob wrestled with a divine being, perhaps an angel, rather than God Himself. After all, when Moses wrote Genesis some 500-1000 years later, he would've relied on information passed down through Jacob, as there were no other witnesses to this event. It is possible that Jacob believed he had wrestled God, even if it wasn’t God in His full essence.

But then I thought really about it... Sure, the all-powerful Creator of the universe wouldn't struggle in a fight against a mere mortal man, but when the wrestler decides to end the fight, he simply touches Jacob’s hip and dislocates it. That suggests he was holding back all along.

Ultimately, whether Jacob wrestled with God Himself or just an angel, the encounter was transformative. He left with a limp, but also with a blessing and a new identity. His story mirrors the spiritual journey of many converts: wrestling with God, resisting Him, yet ultimately being changed by His presence.
 
Bizet said:
Genesis 32-33

Gen 32 says that Jacob wrestled with God, but did he really?

At first, I had my doubts. If this wrestler was truly God, surely He could've overpowered Jacob with ease.

To me, it seemed more likely that Jacob wrestled with a divine being, perhaps an angel, rather than God Himself. After all, when Moses wrote Genesis some 500-1000 years later, he would've relied on information passed down through Jacob, as there were no other witnesses to this event. It is possible that Jacob believed he had wrestled God, even if it wasn’t God in His full essence.

But then I thought really about it... Sure, the all-powerful Creator of the universe wouldn't struggle in a fight against a mere mortal man, but when the wrestler decides to end the fight, he simply touches Jacob’s hip and dislocates it. That suggests he was holding back all along.

Ultimately, whether Jacob wrestled with God Himself or just an angel, the encounter was transformative. He left with a limp, but also with a blessing and a new identity. His story mirrors the spiritual journey of many converts: wrestling with God, resisting Him, yet ultimately being changed by His presence.
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Could have been wrestling with Christ as well.
 
Genesis 32

The word 'angel' does not refer to a species. It means messenger, it is a role. In verse 1, Jacob meets with "the angels of God." In verse 3, Jacob sends "messengers" to Esau. The underlying word for 'angels' and 'messengers' is the same.

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the angel of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says Yahweh of hosts.
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This is a Messianic text. Even the name Malachi means messenger of God. The Lord will suddenly come to His temple and the Angel of the Covenant is coming. Christ can be referred to as an angel in this sense, that He is the preeminent messenger of God. Even men can be referred to as angels. This is not to deny that God created heavenly beings, but it is to point out that the word angel can be opaque.

Jacob dreads meeting Esau and prays to God for protection. After being left alone, he wrestles with a man. When he asks for the man's name, the man says, "Why do you ask my name?"

Judges 13:17 Then Manoah said to the angel of Yahweh, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” 18But the angel of Yahweh said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”
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The Angel of the Lord prophecies the birth of Samson to Samson's parents. When they ask the angel his name, he replies much like the man in Genesis 32. To say that His name is wonderful means that His name is beyond comprehension, thus it remains a standing question: Why do you ask for the name of God when you know that it is beyond human understanding? God grants neither their request because His revelation had not come yet.

And Jacob did indeed wrestle with God, the pre-incarnate Christ. God renames him into Israel, he who wrestles with God. And Jacob says that he has seen God face to face and yet his life was spared. We too wrestle with God. God gives us various trials throughout our lives, but these trials are meant to strengthen us and build us up. No matter the trial, we should be thankful in all things, good and bad, because this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning us, and we can be utterly convinced that God's trials produce perseverance, and perseverance, character, and character, hope.

Genesis 33

Jacob reunites with Esau. Surprisingly, Esau shows grace to Jacob and welcomes him with tears. But this is no credit to Esau, rather, it is God answering Jacob's prayer of protection, and showing that He holds the hearts of men in His hand, to soften and to harden according to His purpose. This is a daily reality to me. I rely on God softening the hearts of men who would otherwise harm me, and He is faithful to do so. God is the greatest deescalation one could want for.
Jacob departs and makes his way to Succoth where he sets up his home and builds an altar for God.
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
Genesis 32

The word 'angel' does not refer to a species. It means messenger, it is a role. In verse 1, Jacob meets with "the angels of God." In verse 3, Jacob sends "messengers" to Esau. The underlying word for 'angels' and 'messengers' is the same.


This is a Messianic text. Even the name Malachi means messenger of God. The Lord will suddenly come to His temple and the Angel of the Covenant is coming. Christ can be referred to as an angel in this sense, that He is the preeminent messenger of God. Even men can be referred to as angels. This is not to deny that God created heavenly beings, but it is to point out that the word angel can be opaque.

Jacob dreads meeting Esau and prays to God for protection. After being left alone, he wrestles with a man. When he asks for the man's name, the man says, "Why do you ask my name?"


The Angel of the Lord prophecies the birth of Samson to Samson's parents. When they ask the angel his name, he replies much like the man in Genesis 32. To say that His name is wonderful means that His name is beyond comprehension, thus it remains a standing question: Why do you ask for the name of God when you know that it is beyond human understanding? God grants neither their request because His revelation had not come yet.

And Jacob did indeed wrestle with God, the pre-incarnate Christ. God renames him into Israel, he who wrestles with God. And Jacob says that he has seen God face to face and yet his life was spared. We too wrestle with God. God gives us various trials throughout our lives, but these trials are meant to strengthen us and build us up. No matter the trial, we should be thankful in all things, good and bad, because this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning us, and we can be utterly convinced that God's trials produce perseverance, and perseverance, character, and character, hope.

Genesis 33

Jacob reunites with Esau. Surprisingly, Esau shows grace to Jacob and welcomes him with tears. But this is no credit to Esau, rather, it is God answering Jacob's prayer of protection, and showing that He holds the hearts of men in His hand, to soften and to harden according to His purpose. This is a daily reality to me. I rely on God softening the hearts of men who would otherwise harm me, and He is faithful to do so. God is the greatest deescalation one could want for.
Jacob departs and makes his way to Succoth where he sets up his home and builds an altar for God.
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I also tend to think that Esau would have been overcome with emotion because he hadn’t seen his twin brother for more than 20 years. I remember a time many years ago when my sister and I reconciled after a long period of not taking and it too was very emotional.
 
Another thing I wanted to add about God and Jacob's wrestling match: the Orthodox Study Bible makes a note about why God would "lose." Christ comes in the form of a weak man. Obviously, God would not lose unless He were to take a dive. That is essentially what the crucifixion is, God willingly let Himself "lose." Even before He came down, He knew what the outcome of the fight would be.

My own passing thought: as Jacob is a stand in for Israel, perhaps there is a connection between God giving Jacob a limp and the nation of Israel stumbling over Christ.

Defeat is not greater than God. God can use defeat to achieve victory. The world prides itself in strength, power, confidence, victory but it is afraid of defeat, shame, weakness, losing. The world is defeated by victory and defeat but God is victorious whether He wins or loses. Jacob limped for the rest of his life, but he received God's blessing. As Paul says "when I am weak, then I am strong."
 
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Genesis 34-35

A recurring theme in Genesis is sin being passed down through generations. Jacob used deception to steal Esau’s birthright and their father Isaac’s blessing. Now, his sons, Simeon and Levi, use deception to avenge their sister Dinah, slaughtering an entire city under the guise of a peace agreement. I do wonder how much of this action is a result of their father’s example.

Simeon and Levi’s response is not just justice: it is excessive vengeance. Their act of killing all the men of Shechem, instead of targeting the guilty individual, mirrors Israel’s actions in Palestine today, where a single attack has lead to large-scale retaliation.

Today's reading makes me think of Ecclesiastes 1:9

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."
 
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