You think the Apostle Paul is presenting a false dichotomy in verses 4 and 5? He is telling the truth. Anything else is a lie.
Then that's the standard you'll be held to.
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No, your interpretation is a false dichotomy. It's not "works or faith," it's both. Works and faith. Both are dependent on each other.
I didn't even give you my interpretation. I just quoted the two verses to you and asked which one describes you, verse 4 or 5? It is your interpretation of "faith + works" that is getting in the way and causing you to stumble over the Apostle's own dichotomy:
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
Nice to see a theological debate on this forum again.
Some thoughts:
Measured against God's Holy Law we all fail. So we have no merit before God on that standard.
Measured by the law of faith, which is inseparable from repentance, we can justified before God.
Paul quotes David in Romans 4 who says blessed is the man who is forgiven and trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly. Men who know they have no merit and need forgiveness find acceptance before God.
In Romans 8 Paul says God sent Christ to condemn sin in the flesh so that the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in those who walk after the spirit, not the flesh. In other words God justified those who receive the spirit and walk in newness of life. Having faith is inseparable from walking in the spirit.
In my earlier post I quoted Romans 4:28-21, where Paul describes the faith of Abraham as a hopeful, God glorifying faith.
In Romans 2 Paul describes faith as patient well doing that seeks glory, honor, and immortality.
Paul can never be studied and debated enough.
Some thoughts:
Measured against God's Holy Law we all fail. So we have no merit before God on that standard.
Measured by the law of faith, which is inseparable from repentance, we can justified before God.
Paul quotes David in Romans 4 who says blessed is the man who is forgiven and trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly. Men who know they have no merit and need forgiveness find acceptance before God.
In Romans 8 Paul says God sent Christ to condemn sin in the flesh so that the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in those who walk after the spirit, not the flesh. In other words God justified those who receive the spirit and walk in newness of life. Having faith is inseparable from walking in the spirit.
In my earlier post I quoted Romans 4:28-21, where Paul describes the faith of Abraham as a hopeful, God glorifying faith.
In Romans 2 Paul describes faith as patient well doing that seeks glory, honor, and immortality.
Paul can never be studied and debated enough.
You still do not understand,
"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness"
That faith does not exist without works, the two are inseparable. The faith is what saves someone but the faith cannot exist without works. Our works are meagre and cannot justify ourselves, but, without works faith is dead, so, the faith that is credited as righteousness is faith through works that is always insufficient, but God's grace is granted to them in spite of their works due to their faith.
So it is faith apart from works which saves, but faith cannot exist without works.
That's why Augustine says,
"God makes the ungodly man godly, in order that he might persevere in this godliness and righteousness. For a man is justified in order that he might be just, not so that he might think it is all right to go on sinning."
No one is justified if they go on sinning, it means they haven't been justified. Justified literally means, "to have been made just," so justification comes from faith, where God will turn a sinful person into a just person because he has faith. We also know someone has become faithful when they start behaving justly; they have been justified through God's grace and their old sins are no longer held against them (forgiven).
Everything in the Bible must be taken together.
So even though Paul says that the verse 5 man does not work, but is still justified because he has faith, we should really understand Paul to say that the one who does not work is working?
You say that faith cannot exist without works, that they're inseparable, and yet in verse 5, there is a clear separation between the two, and that the faithful, not-working man is justified.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
But we do go on sinning. Every day. That's not even a question. Are we not justified then? Does our faith in Christ account for nothing? Paul says that God justifies the ungodly.
Sure, but that doesn't mean to override Romans 4 with James 2. You can go to James 2 and see that he is not even talking about what Paul is talking about here in Romans 4. You need to let Paul have his say.
What does "does not work" mean to you? Does it mean that the blessed man is working?
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He is not saying "one who does not work" in the sense that the man never works, but is simply righteous in belief, and is justified through that faith, yet that same person is not someone who will never work.
You are interpreting this as an "all or nothing" statement, when it's not. It is not the case that the one who does not work is one who never works or will never work.
God knows who will do good works before they do them, and so, a nonworking believer is justified before he does his works, because God knows after justification that same man will go on to do good works and be fruitful.
The works themselves are not what save, but they are the product of being saved and one cannot be saved if they are not doing good works (they haven't be made just). That is how you tie all of these passages together, James 2, Romans 4 + 5.
But we sin less, and we fight that sin, after justification, than we have since before. The heart strives for God after justification, perfection is not attainable although we all yearn for it. So yes, we are all sinners, but no, that does not mean we are not justified through faith. This is because believers do good works, and let their faith shine forth, being fruitful, and earning forgiveness from God.
This is all I've been saying all along. The non-working believer is justified by faith alone. However, now that he has been justified, he will go on to do good works because God is working in him to do them. This is what's called Sanctification. So when he wasn't working, and now that he is, God was saving him through it all.
So there is a place for both Faith Alone and a place for Faith + Works. Faith Alone comes first, that is Justification. Faith + Works follows, that is Sanctification.
My understanding is that faith is never alone, and that justification is works. Justification = to be made just, so if someone is justified, then we will see it in their future works. Just men do just acts (works).
But it is faith that justifies - works can never make someone just. They are made just by God, and because they are made just they will do good works. But from our perspective, this is always a choice.
Romans 5
Romans 5:12-19
This can be tricky to interpret. I advocate Augustine's interpretation and will be working with that. He had a less than ideal translation, but he considers the full context, which his detractors do not do.
One of the most glorious verses in the Bible. Having been justified: Justification is not a process. It is an act of God that has already been accomplished. We now have shalom with God. Peace: we are no longer at war with Him nor He with us.
While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. God does not need to wait on us to save us. It is we who need to wait on Him. It makes me think of the Abraham Lincoln quote: "Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?"
We needed to be saved from the wrath of God. I've heard people have the audacity to reject this, believing that us needing to be saved from the wrath of God makes God into the bad guy. To them I say: God is not evil, we are. There again, Paul speaks of Justification as a past time act: having been justified by His blood. I was justified when Christ died for me on the cross. By faith, that truth became mine.
Romans 5:12-19
This can be tricky to interpret. I advocate Augustine's interpretation and will be working with that. He had a less than ideal translation, but he considers the full context, which his detractors do not do.
Most errors in interpreting this section come from reading verse 12 on it's own but not seeing how Paul cashes it out in verses 18 and 19. All men [in Adam] sinned when Adam sinned. His one transgression, eating from the tree, appointed you as a sinner. All men [in Christ] were justified by His one righteous act, dying on the tree. His one act appoints us as righteous. This is the doctrine of Federal Headship, Covenant Mediators. Adam represents those in him, and his intercession condemned them all. Christ represents those in Him, and His intercession saves them all. Christ is the better Mediator of the better Covenant. I do not agree with Augustine in that he believed in the seminal view of Original Sin. That sin is as if a substance that is passed through the physical seed. It wouldn't make sense given his privation view of sin, which is absolutely correct.
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This isn't what that means. You're justified when you take in Christ's blood, i.e. communion sacrament. It was not simply Christ dying on the cross which justifies, although he did die for our sins. But that act alone does not justify us.
Christ clearly taught in John that one must take his body and blood to be saved, as well as at the last supper in various gospels. That is the faith which justifies. Simply "believing" is not enough. Those who do not take communion are not being justified - that's the literal translation of this passage. Disagree with it if you'd like, but that is what Paul is saying.
Did the thief on the cross take the communion sacrament or was he justified by faith?
Christ can do whatever He wants, and make exceptions for whomever He pleases. That doesn't mean the rest of His words no longer apply. When Paul was speaking out justification through blood that is 100% a reference to communion, which everyone did back in the 1st century.
I agree that Christ can do whatever He wants. He can even justify us through faith alone even if we haven't received the Lord's Supper. But why would we see the thief as the exception rather than the rule? Which communion sacrament did Abraham take? Was he not justified by faith even before he was circumcised? And does Paul not say that we are justified the same way as he was? The Lord instituted the Eucharist for Grace, not for Law.
To be fair to your point, Melchizedek gave Abraham bread and wine, which one could argue is a type of communion. But it was not at this point that Paul says Abraham was justified, but when Abraham believed was it credited to him as righteousness.
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These are different questions beyond the scope of the reading. The fact is when Paul spoke about justification through blood, it is a reference to the Eucharist. That is all. Your other questions have explanations but they are far beyond the text at this point.
You can assert that but you've done nothing to substantiate it. Is Paul talking about the cross or the sacrament? I'll let the immediate context be the judge:
"Save by his life," aka his body and blood. We are reconciled through the death of Christ, but so much more through His life = Eucharist. It's so obvious, that's what every Christian was doing in Paul's time. The life of the world was the blood and body of Christ.
More on justification through the blood of Christ:
Chrysostom.
Writing On The Blood Typology
Let us then return from the [Communion] table like lions breathing fire, having become terrible to the devil; thinking on our Head [Christ] and on the love that He has shown for us.… Our Lord says: “I feed you with My own flesh, desiring that you all be nobly born, and holding forth good hopes for your future.… I have willed to become your Brother. For your sake, I shared in flesh and blood, and, in turn, I give you the flesh and the blood by which I became your kinsman.” This blood causes the image of our King to be fresh within us. It produces beauty unspeakable and prevents the nobleness of our souls from wasting away.… It nourishes our souls and works in them a mighty power. This blood, if rightly taken, drives away devils, and keeps them far from us, while it calls the angels and the Lord of angels to us. For wherever they see the Lord’s blood, devils flee, and angels run together.
This blood poured forth and washed all the world clean. St. Paul uttered many wise sayings concerning it in the Epistle to the Hebrews. This blood cleansed the secret place and the Holy of Holies. And if the type of this blood had such great power in the temple of the Hebrews, and in the midst of Egypt, when smeared on the doorposts, much more the reality! The type sanctified the golden altar. Without it [the blood of the sacrifices], the high priest dared not enter into the secret place. It even consecrated priests. It cleansed sins [in the Old Testament].
But if the blood [of the sacrifices] was but a type and had such power, if death so shuddered at the shadow, tell me how would it not have dreaded the very reality? The blood [of Christ] is the salvation of our souls. By it, the soul is washed, is beautiful, and is inflamed! This blood causes our understanding to be more bright than fire and our soul more beaming than gold. This blood was poured forth and opened heaven.
—John Chrysostom , Homilies On the Gospel of St. John, Homily XLVI.3
St. Chrysostom refers to Hebrews 2. From Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it befitted him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare your name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise unto you.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children whom God has given me.
14 Since then the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
We become brothers of Christ when we partake of the same flesh and blood He Himself was, sharing in His death and resurrection. Thus are we justified through his blood, who by the grace of God was offered to the world on behalf of the many. God's gracefulness is him willingly sacrificing His own Son, and justification comes from becoming part of that Son, through his flesh and blood.
Hence why Jesus talks about this extensively in the Book of John. If you ever see "blood" and "Christ" mentioned by a writer before the 10th century, they were talking about the Eucharist. This goes doubly for St. Paul.
Chrysostom.
Writing On The Blood Typology
Let us then return from the [Communion] table like lions breathing fire, having become terrible to the devil; thinking on our Head [Christ] and on the love that He has shown for us.… Our Lord says: “I feed you with My own flesh, desiring that you all be nobly born, and holding forth good hopes for your future.… I have willed to become your Brother. For your sake, I shared in flesh and blood, and, in turn, I give you the flesh and the blood by which I became your kinsman.” This blood causes the image of our King to be fresh within us. It produces beauty unspeakable and prevents the nobleness of our souls from wasting away.… It nourishes our souls and works in them a mighty power. This blood, if rightly taken, drives away devils, and keeps them far from us, while it calls the angels and the Lord of angels to us. For wherever they see the Lord’s blood, devils flee, and angels run together.
This blood poured forth and washed all the world clean. St. Paul uttered many wise sayings concerning it in the Epistle to the Hebrews. This blood cleansed the secret place and the Holy of Holies. And if the type of this blood had such great power in the temple of the Hebrews, and in the midst of Egypt, when smeared on the doorposts, much more the reality! The type sanctified the golden altar. Without it [the blood of the sacrifices], the high priest dared not enter into the secret place. It even consecrated priests. It cleansed sins [in the Old Testament].
But if the blood [of the sacrifices] was but a type and had such power, if death so shuddered at the shadow, tell me how would it not have dreaded the very reality? The blood [of Christ] is the salvation of our souls. By it, the soul is washed, is beautiful, and is inflamed! This blood causes our understanding to be more bright than fire and our soul more beaming than gold. This blood was poured forth and opened heaven.
—John Chrysostom , Homilies On the Gospel of St. John, Homily XLVI.3
St. Chrysostom refers to Hebrews 2. From Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it befitted him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare your name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise unto you.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children whom God has given me.
14 Since then the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
We become brothers of Christ when we partake of the same flesh and blood He Himself was, sharing in His death and resurrection. Thus are we justified through his blood, who by the grace of God was offered to the world on behalf of the many. God's gracefulness is him willingly sacrificing His own Son, and justification comes from becoming part of that Son, through his flesh and blood.
Hence why Jesus talks about this extensively in the Book of John. If you ever see "blood" and "Christ" mentioned by a writer before the 10th century, they were talking about the Eucharist. This goes doubly for St. Paul.