2025 Bible Study Group

[Wutang]

Romans 10


There are so many Christians who do not share Paul's desire for the salvation of the Jews at all. It's a sad thing to see. I remember reading a Jew who placed his faith in Christ and how he came to understand that Christ is the fulfillment of everything it means to be a Jew. It was actually very beautiful.

Made me think of this article on the top female chess player in the US and the only American woman to hold the grandmaster title

Jewish Christian U.S. chess champion

America’s only female grandmaster survived a serious bout with COVID-19, then won the U.S. women’s chess championship

wng.org

Krush describes herself as a “Christian Jew,” having converted to Christianity in 2011. She and Alex Lenderman, another grandmaster in Brooklyn, attend the same Russian Orthodox church. She and Alex also went to the same public high school in Brooklyn, Edward R. Murrow High School, famous for its chess teams. Elite chess teams don’t typically come from public schools.

She had never been interested in Christianity, but after a year of reading spiritual books, she decided she wanted to see what a church service was like. At her first service, she says, “it was immediate: There was no more thinking or choosing. … I felt like, ‘Oh yes, this is where the truth is.’”

She remembered the sermon: “‘Faith is a gift from God’… those words went into my heart.” Three months later she was baptized, and she has now joined the choir even though she describes herself as “the least talented person you can imagine … but I’m learning to sing.”

“This is one of the unexpected moments of my life,” she said.

She went to a hospital in Brooklyn, tested positive for COVID-19, and was admitted for several days by herself. She would go to sleep with Psalm 90 playing on her phone: “Lord, you have been our dwelling place, for all generations.”

 

[Tippy]

I got a bit sick and run down by various things so I have tried to quickly summarize the latest chapters and also a few questions. Most notable from this bunch for me at least was the 'wrestle with God' section and the behaviour of Jacob's sons...anyway...

Feb 1: Genesis 26–27

Isaac stays in Gerar on God’s commands.

Yet again there is a lie about wife being sister in this case Isaac’s wife Rebekah

Abimelech makes a covenant with Isaac after realising the Lord appears to be with him.

Takeaway- The lord will bless certain people (the descendents of Isaac) and following his will leads to rewards.

27 - Jacob steals birthright

More deception this time Rebekah pushes Jacob to trick father with gifts of game.

This part makes me feel sorry for Esau who is tricked out of his birth rite. Part of me thinks this is satanic deception a bit like the serpent in Eden but the punishment isn’t there for this. Why not?

It appears like we’re going to get another Cain and Able story but this one ends differently…

Feb 3: Genesis 28–29

More warnings against Canaanite women…I guess the lesson here is do not marry sinful women

We get a reference to a ‘Stairway to heaven’ and this seems to reaffirm Jacob’s belief in God

29

Seems in this era some mild incest was acceptable (or at least marrying within bloodlines) Was this later outlawed?

More trickery relating to women as Jacob sleeps with the wrong one (oops) and is demanded to work 7 more years to get Rachel. Anyone who is dismayed by wife hunts in 2025 could take something from this.


Feb 5: Genesis 30–31

Jacob gets a lot of action here as he keeps getting presented with a rotation of women to impregnate.

FInally Joseph is conceived and he will come up again later of course…

Through ingenuity Jacob is able to slowly grow independence from Laban

31

More of Jacob’s dreams here which I suppose is a build up to Joseph’s coming later…

This part feels like a nice come uppance for abusive employers


Feb 7: Genesis 32–33

An angry Esau appears to be on his way to take out Jacob…

Wait does Jacob actually wrestle with God on earth here? I thought God didn’t appear in human form?
33

I think Esau’s reversal shows that some of these trends (of brotherly revenge) can have different outcomes if people make better choices.


Feb 9: Genesis 34–35

And on that note of right or wrong choices we see Jacob’s sons indulging in some horrific pillaging…

Though weirdly God doesn’t intervene here…despite his active role in this part of the Bible

35

Notable for deaths of Rachel and and Isaac…

Overall, these sections focused a lot on God’s faith with certain people/groups and here (unlike in say, Adam and Eve) there isn’t an extreme punishment when people act out or make mistakes.

Wow I'm so far behind and I haven't touched the Bible since this post. I will try my best to catch up by first finishing off Genesis...I have no choice than to just sit here right now and OUT OF SHEER RAGE catch up to you guys. This might not be the most insightful Biblical criticism but I've been slippin' and I'll just do what I can

36- Descendants of Esau

No idea what to take from this one as it's just a list of names. One question is why is this important and included in the Bible?

37- Joseph's Dreams- Jacob makes a beautiful robe for Joseph and the brothers get jealous (defo a repeated theme in the Bible). The brothers seem to hate the dream where Joseph implies his supremacy.

Defo a narratively interesting section as the brothers then make plans to kill and decide to 'kindly' threw cistern and leave him to starve to death rather than cold blooded murder. Eventually they sell him to some traders.

They try to trick father by dipping Joseph's robe in goat blood. Father presumes a wild animal must have killed Joseph. Eventually Joseph is sold to the Pharoah and well uh...more on this later!

38- Judah and Tamar

Interesting part about this is this guy 'Onan' sleeps with brother's wife but doesn't finish inside and I guess this is the etymology of onanism (masturbation) as well as an indictment of rhythm method of birth control even being considered EVIL here.

Kind of a weird section where Judah does not realise he has propositioned his daughter in law and solicited her for prostitution due to a face covering.

Eventually she gives birth to twins and there is a fight between siblings ultimately leading to Zerah coming out first.

More deceptions here and some near unfair cruetly as Tamar is nearly burned by Judah the one who wronged her but eventually sees the errors of his ways when he sees his seal on the gifts she received from him earlier which tells me maybe this book is that people can realise they made mistakes and learn from them. Oh, I used my daughter in law as a prostitute? My b. Won't d that again!

I wish i had a deeper insight than that but I just don't at this moment

39 - Joseph in Potiphar's house

Potiphar's wife kind of screws Joseph over here as he refuses to sleep with her but eventually she frames him anyway and basically accuses him of rape. Early version of Metoo story here.

Joseph gets thrown in prison but NEVER fear for the Lord is with him...

My takeaway here is that bad things can happen but if the lord is with you it's ok he'll help you out if it...

I don't know how to reconcile this with real world situations where people get thrown into horrible environments and things just get worse and worse as they got tortured....does this mean God is NOT one of them? OH I get it isn't black and white and this is more allegorical because in the real world God does not intervene so much as he does here or if he does he does so in more subtle ways. i get it's my own ego saying 'why not...why can't it be the way that makes sense to ME in my man made moral universe that is more fair?' But I'm not god. And I just come away saying 'I don't really understand...' And maybe that's ok FOR NOW.

40 Joseph Interprets Two Dreams -

We learn that Joseph can interpret dreams...before Carl Jung many years later! Well, Jung was always a supporter of Christianity even though his acolytes can be a bit woo woo.

It does seem intriguing that Jungian psychology is put as an alternative to Christianity but maybe just maybe dream interpretation is really an often not talked about part of being a Christian. Jung's beliefs have inspired me a but but I always have this dilemma of if Jungian archetypes are this individualized way of finding fulfillment or just a misunderstanding of absolute morality and truth which can and should lead us back to Xtianity!

41. Pharaoh's Dreams-

Interesting dreams with lucky number 7 appearing

Joseph Made Ruler of Egypt

Dream interpretation is so on point Joseph gets some props and is promoted to ruler of Egypt. Result! Even gets a new name which is impossible to read or remember? Even better!

I don't have too much to say except this so far I'd say the most narratively compelling part of Genesis for me...

Genesis 42-

Joseph's brothers go to Egypt


Joseph recognizes the bros but they don't recognize him...why do I feel this plot element is so familiar? In Shakespeare many times there are these disguises also and in the Bible constantly and even going back to Greek drama...Oedipus or something...mistaken identity such a potent theme I suppose.

Things get more intense with the other sons meeting Joseph and then being given grain and told to leave one there and come back with the youngest to prove they aren't spies. Meanwhile everyone still thinks Joseph is actually dead and father says if the youngest does not come back he will die!


It's more deception and confusion and from Joseph's side we don't really know what he's up to...almost appears like a cheeky bit of Monte Christo esque revenge here but I guess this is building up to something...

Genesis 43 - The Brothers Return to Egypt

After a discussion with father the boys return to Joseph and they visit bearing gifts! Joseph gets overwhelmed with emotion and then feast with the family though still all is not revealed.

Moral of this section - that the bond of family is vital, that there is a power to forgive as Joseph is not just angrily punishing his brothers who wronged him, that those blessed by God have a kind of moral grace.

Genesis 44- Joseph's Silver Cup

Joseph plays a weird prank by making them leave with a 'stolen' cup which he plants there and the 'stolen' cup ends up being taken by Benjamin

So lil Benji has to stay and the rest are sent back to father who is most likely gonna be mad his favourite son is not there

Moral lesson : God works in mysterious ways, God (working in a sense through Joseph here) is causing a lot of pain and suffering here but it may not end that way. We must have faith in difficult times as we do not always know the grander plan

Genesis 45-

Joseph reveals his Identity

Finally this comes back to father and they plan to visit

Moral lesson - A continuation of the last book really in that we don't know what will happen after certain months or years of suffering and uncertainty but in this case it comes together. Things were not what they seemed and we should not always trust appearances.

Genesis 46-

Jacob's journey to Egypt

We get a tearful reunion between father and son here!

Lesson - Reconciliation can heal wounds

And we see the beginning of the Egypt arc which will come into fruition later with eventual Exodus

Genesis 47- Jacob Blesses Pharaoh

As the money starts running low Joseph buys up all the land for the pharoah

Genesis 48

This one really helps put in context that Joseph's success was linked to a prophecy Jacob received and Jacob now continues that by blessing Joesph's son and the fact he blesses the youngest shows a bit of a change in standards and a suggestion that the order of birth is no longer of primary importance for blessings.

Genesis 49 - Jacob's Last words to his sons

Some interesting future prophecies for the future, some having pretty depressing futures due to character flaws...

Also a nice call back to the plot of land which Abraham bought earlier where he chooses to be buried and I feel like one of the moral lessons here is to make the necessary preparations on earth for death

Genesis 50-

A little morally questionable part as the other brothers bring up the expected forgiveness while reminding Joseph they are slaves and Joseph just says he will take care of them. Does not actually say he will unslave them...a bit ambiguous...

Ends with death of Joseph and a premonition of the Exodus which is to come!

The ending it all kinda comes together and ends on a satisfying note calling back to the various people that brought us to this point.

For now I'll just post this and then start a different post for Romans where I will do my catch up next.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Romans 11

1 I say then, has God rejected His people? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE whom He foreknew.

There is the language of foreknown again, harkening back to the golden chain of redemption in Romans 8. Paul does not use foreknown in an epistemological sense, but in a covenantal sense.

Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what does the divine response say to him? “I HAVE LEFT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In this way then, at the present time, a remnant according to God’s gracious choice has also come to be.

Paul draws a direct parallel from the faithful Remnant in the days of Elijah to the Elect in his own time. No matter how apostate the world is, God will always preserve for Himself His Elect.

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but the chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened

Paul again emphasizes that Grace cannot be called Grace if it is any way merited or caused by the creature. Grace is freely given. God is the one who has free will. Free to choose and free to harden.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast against them, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right! They were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be haughty, but fear, 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Do not boast against the branches. Do not celebrate the apostasy of the Jews. Without their rejection of the Christ, you would not have been brought in. If God removed the unbelieving, natural sons of Abraham, how much more do you think He will remove those who are not sons of Abraham at all, neither by faith or blood?

25 For I do not want you, brothers, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved

Do not think you are wiser for believing in Christ when others, especially the Jews, have rejected Him. It was not by your might or wisdom but by His doing that you are in Christ Jesus. Paul goes into eschatological language. The Jews will remain apostate until God has drawn all His Elect from the Gentiles. After that, God will save all His Israel.

 

[Tippy]

Romans 1-

Kicks off with a basic idea of how everyone should know God as 'people have seen the earth and sky' I guess how much more do you need?

"Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools' - Interpret this that you can be book smart but so far from the truth it doesn't matter

"They did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies' - comes out swinging with a sexual lust attack!

A visceral attack on sin especially homosexuality!

One gleams from this a sense of utter moral indignation

Romans 2-

'You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad...' Uh-oh, we aren't off the hook!

'But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself'

This is the idea that you can be fixated on worldly things and not even realise you are on a path to hell.

And I can relate to this since there are many times I have been stuck in sinning ways but I make justifications or tell myself somehow I can't help it or that maybe it's just normal since everyone does it.

We are reminded that although the jews had God's written law , jews and gentiles alike will be judged and punished!

He seems mad that some go through the process of being circumcised and think that's enough if they are jewish but he reminds us that is not the case.

Romans 3-

Tells us God presented Jesus as sacrifice for sin and that when he didn't punish past sinners he was saving it all for Jesus. Also states that siners are OK in God's eyes if they believe in Jesus. Obeying the law is not enough. Faith is needed!

Not sure what to take from this in my own life. Is faith itself enough? So far it seems the need for repentance is not stated.

Romans 4 -

back to the circumcision obsession again which is a little tricky to get ones heard around in this time period.

It's not following laws/rituals that's important, it's faith! A little confusing since it seems we also have to follow various rules/traditions in the various denominations and I'm not sure how to reconcile that with this passage...

Romans 5-

Interesting part 'our friendship with God was restored by the death of his son while we were still his enemies' so...is this saying somehow that we became detached from god and the sacrifice of jesus was to bring us back in unit with him? By killing his own son, he brought us back to him. I still don't get how and it's a frustrating question for me to fully understand.

He makes a comparison to Adam saying Adam's sin lead to death but god's sacrifice made many righteous. Is he trying to say that by making people aware that jesus was truly the son of God (through the resurrection) he can convert them? Still confused!

Roman 6

Our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power? Really? How did that work exactly? When we died with Christ we were set free from power of sin??? I don't get this.

Because in my mind I just think...ok...he died...but we still sin! We were NOT free from it at all. Just because God killed the most pure person he could it does not stop us from sinning. I just can't make the connection between allowing a son to die and everybody being free from sin. Because we continue to sin and the sacrifice does not change that. People were sinning like crazy before and after Jesus. So what difference did the sacrifice make?

Do not let sin takeover your life!

He states you are a slave to whatever you obey!


I think I'll stop here and I hope although I am behind some other people could help me with these questions.

I'll catch up later tonight.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Romans 11

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. God has not given the Jews up entirely. Paul already said this about them earlier in Romans 3:

3 What then? If some did not believe, does their unbelief abolish the faithfulness of God? 4May it never be!

Does their faithlessness abolish God's faithfulness? Never, it's impossible. Paul speaks this way elsewhere:

2 Timothy 2:13: If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

God cannot deny Himself. Though God is indeed sovereign, transcendent, and autonomous, He can be said to be limited in one sense: God will not nor cannot break His Word. He who is Truth itself cannot make Himself into a liar. He cannot contradict His own nature. God binds Himself to His Word, most especially in the ratification of the covenants:

Hebrews 6:13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14saying, “I WILL GREATLY BLESS YOU AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU.” 15And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, guaranteed it with an oath, 18so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

This doesn't mean that Jews get saved by virtue of being Jews; if someone does not believe in Christ then he is not saved. It means that God will cause the Jews to believe in Christ according to His kairos, His timing. Until then, they, and all other non-believers, remain blinded until God should take the blinders off any one of them. The unchangeability of God is meant to give you assurance, especially concerning salvation, for God preserves His chosen ones. Only do not put God to the test and abuse His Grace, lest He should reveal to you that you were never chosen at all.

 

[Tippy]

Romans 7

More about sin, knowing sin is wrong, we all have sinful natures.

'I want to do what is good. But I don't'

ain't that the truth!

Every time when I turn to bad habits I know deep down it's wrong. But I do it anyway. I know I'll hate myself after I sin, but it tempts me so I do it anyway. And then begins the long, arduous and almost lifelong process of trying to rationalize sin which eventually makes you evil. Thanks.

Romans 8 - Life in the spirit

Ok so more of the sacrifice, 'the law of Moses was not able to save us...so god did what the law could not do. He sent his own son...and declared an end to sin's control by giving his son as a sacrifice.'

Have to admit I still struggle is this does not lead to an end to sin's control over us. Is the sacrifice a failure if we all still sin?

Powerful ending that nothing can truly separate us from God's love. Somehow I feel it in me that there will be consequences for my sins if I don't deal with them and repent. Sure, I still have doubts if Christianity is the answer but I find it hard to live with the notion of being a sinner.

Romans 9

God's selection of Israel

Interesting argument about Israelites claiming that obsession with law following was put as precedence over faith almost as if this is a more superficial and ritualistic kind of Christianity and so they have in a sense subverted their role as God's children. This has meant that gentiles, by being more faithful, have become closer than the Israelites.

Romans 10

Here the Israelites are accused of being disobedient and rebellious which is a bit of a contrast to the last section saying they were obsessed with the laws.

Romans 11

Again it's repeated that although the gentiles were not the chosen ones, they started to show more faith and that's why they have grown in god's graces.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Is the sacrifice a failure if we all still sin?

No. The Sacrifice of Christ is a finished work. It accomplished what it set out to do. If you are in Christ through faith, then Christ's sacrifice satisfied God's righteous anger that was against you due to your sin. You have been set free from the penalty of sin and will not go to Hell. Though you are still weak and continue to sin, God has sent His Spirit into your heart to help you conquer your sin. Because of this, one day you will be free from the presence of sin altogether. God sent Christ to Justify and He sent the Spirit to Sanctify.

 

[Tippy]

No. The Sacrifice of Christ is a finished work. It accomplished what it set out to do. If you are in Christ through faith, then Christ's sacrifice satisfied God's righteous anger that was against you due to your sin. You have been set free from the penalty of sin and will not go to Hell. Though you are still weak and continue to sin, God has sent His Spirit into your heart to help you conquer your sin. Because of this, one day you will be free from the presence of sin altogether. God sent Christ to Justify and He sent the Spirit to Sanctify.

I still don't fully get this though...I don't get how the sacrifice changed anything. People sinned before and after. People were trying to conquer sin before and after too. How did the sacrifice send the spirit into my heart? This man died. He was resurrected. But was some ability to be set free sent to us like a super power? God was always angry at them because of their sinful natures? But what's changed after the sacrifice and how?

 

[Gazza]

Romans 11


The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. God has not given the Jews up entirely. Paul already said this about them earlier in Romans 3:

Does their faithlessness abolish God's faithfulness? Never, it's impossible. Paul speaks this way elsewhere:

God cannot deny Himself. Though God is indeed sovereign, transcendent, and autonomous, He can be said to be limited in one sense: God will not nor cannot break His Word. He who is Truth itself cannot make Himself into a liar. He cannot contradict His own nature. God binds Himself to His Word, most especially in the ratification of the covenants:

This doesn't mean that Jews get saved by virtue of being Jews; if someone does not believe in Christ then he is not saved. It means that God will cause the Jews to believe in Christ according to His kairos, His timing. Until then, they, and all other non-believers, remain blinded until God should take the blinders off any one of them. The unchangeability of God is meant to give you assurance, especially concerning salvation, for God preserves His chosen ones. Only do not put God to the test and abuse His Grace, lest He should reveal to you that you were never chosen at all.

“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. God has not given the Jews up entirely. Paul already said this about them earlier in Romans 3:”
At times this can be really difficult to accept. Especially given the almost demonic behaviour and character of the jews that we see nowadays. Nonetheless Gods word is true. Was then, is now, and will be forever.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. God has not given the Jews up entirely. Paul already said this about them earlier in Romans 3:”
At times this can be really difficult to accept. Especially given the almost demonic behaviour and character of the jews that we see nowadays. Nonetheless Gods word is true. Was then, is now, and will be forever.

When I focus on the evil of my heart, it makes it hard to fixate on the evil of others. The Jews are merely one player in the cycles of revenge that dominate the world. They do not deserve salvation but neither did we. So if God has decided to save them from their evil ways at the end of time, let it be so.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I still don't fully get this though...I don't get how the sacrifice changed anything. People sinned before and after. People were trying to conquer sin before and after too. How did the sacrifice send the spirit into my heart? This man died. He was resurrected. But was some ability to be set free sent to us like a super power? God was always angry at them because of their sinful natures? But what's changed after the sacrifice and how?

These are not the right metrics to judge the Sacrifice by. If the Sacrifice didn't happen then no one is getting saved and everybody is going to Hell. Period. Because the Sacrifice did happen, people do get saved through putting their faith in Christ. Perhaps it would be helpful to view the Sacrifice as the ratification of the New Covenant. Salvation is a benefit of the New Covenant. If the New Covenant is not ratified, it's benefits will not be administered.

Your question is like asking: there were colonialists living in America before and after the Declaration, so what did the Declaration really change? Without the Declaration there is no United States of America. If there is no USA, there is no U.S Constitution administering rights to it's citizens.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Romans 12

1 Therefore I exhort you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a sacrifice—living, holy, and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

Your whole life is meant to be worship towards God. Since you have been justified though faith alone, your works are now acceptable to God. So do all your work in gratitude towards Him. Not as unto men but unto the Lord. If you are in Christ, you are no longer in Adam, and therefore are no longer subjected to futile works, futile worship.

5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another,

The Church is both one and the many. Maintain the balance. Many people emphasize one side over the other, lose their balance, and fall into error.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless, and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep,

Paul would not have made for a good Stoic. Yet God's Word trumps all man-made philosophy. Do as the Apostle says.

19 never taking your own revenge, beloved—instead leave room for the wrath of God. For it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord.

The revenge cycle is a curse that the Gospel is meant to save the world from. We should be doubly cursed if we bring it into the Church. So do not practice vengeance but practice forgiveness. It is only natural to return evil for evil. But it is supernatural to return good for evil. It is not possible to do it without faith in God, namely that He will carry out His justice or mercy.

 

[Samseau]

No. The Sacrifice of Christ is a finished work. It accomplished what it set out to do. If you are in Christ through faith, then Christ's sacrifice satisfied God's righteous anger that was against you due to your sin. You have been set free from the penalty of sin and will not go to Hell. Though you are still weak and continue to sin, God has sent His Spirit into your heart to help you conquer your sin. Because of this, one day you will be free from the presence of sin altogether. God sent Christ to Justify and He sent the Spirit to Sanctify.

Paul explicitly says the opposite in the very next chapter (Romans 8), explaining that if we do not love Christ we will not be saved, i.e. we will be cut off from the vine of God as explained in Romans Ch. 11.

To love Christ means to follow His commandments. Jn 14:21:

They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”

One cannot say they love Christ while disobeying His commandments.

For example, one cannot say they love Christ while murdering and stealing from others

 

[Tippy]

Romans 12

This one seemed a more practical book. Simple wisdom. Don't try to get revenge. Be the best you can be at what you do. Try to find your gift and be good at it.

"never be lazy'

Some of this hits home for me because I don't know if I give my all to everything I do. Sometimes I seem as if I'm going through the motions. I'm doing various things and don't know if my heart is in any of it including even my faith. But going through life that way you're just this formless blob floating around.

 

[Tippy]

These are not the right metrics to judge the Sacrifice by. If the Sacrifice didn't happen then no one is getting saved and everybody is going to Hell. Period. Because the Sacrifice did happen, people do get saved through putting their faith in Christ. Perhaps it would be helpful to view the Sacrifice as the ratification of the New Covenant. Salvation is a benefit of the New Covenant. If the New Covenant is not ratified, it's benefits will not be administered.

Your question is like asking: there were colonialists living in America before and after the Declaration, so what did the Declaration really change? Without the Declaration there is no United States of America. If there is no USA, there is no U.S Constitution administering rights to it's citizens.

So is that Jesus is basically taking the hit for us? He takes God's bullet and we're all saved? Is that what it means? I guess it's confusing because we are still so at war with sin so it seems like the sacrifice maybe didn't help unless it did by giving some hope we can maybe go to heaven if we can transcend.

What about people before Jesus. Were they all sent to hell? Or did God just have a different system for judging this previous?

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

So is that Jesus is basically taking the hit for us? He takes God's bullet and we're all saved? Is that what it means? I guess it's confusing because we are still so at war with sin so it seems like the sacrifice maybe didn't help unless it did by giving some hope we can maybe go to heaven if we can transcend.

You could think of the Cross as Jesus taking the bullet for His Church. I'm fine with that. The problem with reducing the Cross to an unfinished work or merely a hopeful example is that is literally the opposite of what the Bible says about it. Apparently we have people who think that Christ died to no effect, but according to Christ: His death on the cross actually accomplished something. According to Hebrews: it perfected forever those whom God is sanctifying. I wanted to save this for the Gospel of John and Hebrews when we get into those but I think it's good to know, since Paul has been presenting the same thing in Romans.

What about people before Jesus. Were they all sent to hell? Or did God just have a different system for judging this previous?

The same as now. People were saved and people were damned. Through the shadows and prophecies, people were still saved through faith in Christ. But in the New Covenant, the substance of all those things, namely Christ, has come.

If you look back in Romans 3:25-26: what Paul is saying is that the people who were saved before Jesus were still saved by this present righteousness (the cross). It is not saying that God excused sins before Jesus and only started punishing people after Jesus. Nor is it saying that there were different plans of salvation like the Dispensationialists say. Faith in Christ has always been the only way.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Romans 13

1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist have been appointed by God.2Therefore whoever resists that authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

Many people love to rationalize this text away in order to incite rebellion against the government. It escapes their notice that all things, especially worldly governments, are ordered by divine providence. It certainly doesn't mean that all worldly governments govern righteously, Paul understood that better than anyone. But it does call us to not embrace the chaotic spirit of taking matters into our own hands and to submit to God's ordination. All of this, Christ said when He said: Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and render unto God the things that are God's. Of course, whenever the governments outlaw the worship of Christ then we must do like the Apostles and obey God rather than men.

4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword in vain, for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Just as God's Law is enforced by the flaming sword, the earthly laws are enforced by the sword. The Apostle's Creed says that He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate. The clause is meant to reinforce the legal nature of Christ's death, that though He was innocent, He was sentenced as a guilty criminal to the worst death penalty that the government had to offer.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

The commandments are fulfilled in this: Love your neighbor as yourself. The love that comes from God and is channeled through the heart fulfills what the Law, as long as it remained an external obligation to us, could never accomplish. It is not God who needs good works but our neighbor.

12 The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us walk properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.

These things the Law forbids and though we, if we are truly in Christ, are under Grace and not under the Law we ought not turn God's Grace into an excuse for licentiousness as so many have done. Only do not revert back to legalism and the spirit of trying to be justified by works.

14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Put on the Lord Jesus Christ. Clothe yourselves with Him. He is your justification. He hides your nakedness from the Wrath of God.

 

[Tippy]

Romans 13

‘Everyone must submit to authority’ but what about the covid and subsequent demands Paul?

Were we wrong to be mad about covid madness?

‘Authorities are God’s servants’ who? Politicians?

Practical advice to pay taxes.

Ends with an admonition of drunkenness and wild sexual sin....’clothe yourself with the presence of the lord Jesus christ.’

I take away from this chapter mainly that we should do what we are told and be good citizens to be Christians which is at odds with my more rebellious at times yearnings. Particularly in recent events and seeing how authorities appear to no care about people in their countries and are corrupt. And this was true in Pauls’ time too I believe so I cannot get my head around why he is doing this.

But of course the idea of clothing with light rather than dark world of addiction resonates. I just know the feeling of waking up after smoking andd rinking a lot and there’s this darkness in the soul it almost does feel like a living hell. That feeling...psychologists would call it anxiety created from withdrawal but it always feels worse than that and more some devil’s payback.

I think with drinking, with smoking, it gives you this exalted high like state which is a rush and a spike and a relief from the drudgery, the doldrums of the day to day and yet it comes from a substance, a chemical enhancer and not frm any kind of conscious act such as faith or love or prayer and therefore it is inferior and if you’re not sure why or how it is you usually know by the morning where not only are you stripped of all the glories associted with the subtance but also all of the capacities to appreciate any kind of natural appreciation for life’s pleasures and over time, one way or another, the focal point of life becomes the substances themselves above all else to the point they become like mini Gods. They take the pain away but they create the pain. And I’d throw lust in this category too. SO Paul is right to trash these here.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

‘Everyone must submit to authority’ but what about the covid and subsequent demands Paul?

Were we wrong to be mad about covid madness?

The churches that stayed open during covid were right to obey God rather than men. The states had no legal authority to pull the crap they did and essentially suspend the First Amendment. Even if they did, the Church must obey God rather than men.

John MacArthur's church called the state of CA on their bluff and came out on top:
https://www.thomasmoresociety.org/case/cases-los-angeles-county-v-grace-community-church#:~:text=August 31, 2021, Pastor John,any of its agencies from

 

[SeekingGod]

Romans 13

‘Everyone must submit to authority’ but what about the covid and subsequent demands Paul?

Were we wrong to be mad about covid madness?

‘Authorities are God’s servants’ who? Politicians?

Practical advice to pay taxes.

Ends with an admonition of drunkenness and wild sexual sin....’clothe yourself with the presence of the lord Jesus christ.’

I take away from this chapter mainly that we should do what we are told and be good citizens to be Christians which is at odds with my more rebellious at times yearnings. Particularly in recent events and seeing how authorities appear to no care about people in their countries and are corrupt. And this was true in Pauls’ time too I believe so I cannot get my head around why he is doing this.

But of course the idea of clothing with light rather than dark world of addiction resonates. I just know the feeling of waking up after smoking andd rinking a lot and there’s this darkness in the soul it almost does feel like a living hell. That feeling...psychologists would call it anxiety created from withdrawal but it always feels worse than that and more some devil’s payback.

I think with drinking, with smoking, it gives you this exalted high like state which is a rush and a spike and a relief from the drudgery, the doldrums of the day to day and yet it comes from a substance, a chemical enhancer and not frm any kind of conscious act such as faith or love or prayer and therefore it is inferior and if you’re not sure why or how it is you usually know by the morning where not only are you stripped of all the glories associted with the subtance but also all of the capacities to appreciate any kind of natural appreciation for life’s pleasures and over time, one way or another, the focal point of life becomes the substances themselves above all else to the point they become like mini Gods. They take the pain away but they create the pain. And I’d throw lust in this category too. SO Paul is right to trash these here.

You hit the nail on the head here with some of my issues with obedience. Especially in RC where the clergy want to lord over you and tell you what to do. It boggles my mind that some people fail to realize that people chasing power for the wrong reasons in a church are just like people chasing power for the wrong reasons in a company or politics. Some people are power hungry, sociopathic, and narcissists, who unfortunately rise to positions of power, even in the church. These types are not authorities to me.

Since authority is an ingrained human trait for compliance, this requires more study to avoid any pitfalls. The corrupt parts of the RC church ‘submitted to authority’ and simply moved pedophile priests from one jurisdiction to another. Obviously in these cases, they should have told the Bishops and Cardinals to go to hell and refuse their orders.

I think a litmus test could be if any authority is telling you to do something against scripture, or your moral code, it cannot come from God. The balancing act becomes not to become completely negative, only trust yourself, and abandon the faith as authority figures prove they have massive failings just like everyone else.

Example…there have been priests that have admitted to selling and snorting meth, embezzling church funds, molestation, having girlfriends and mistresses, etc. yet their parishioners (mostly women) still follow them. That is the power of authority and why we should be careful who we listen to.