The Reaction To "Game" & Other Past Vile Behaviour - After Enlightenment - Thread

The right answer of how to handle this situation is complicated. First of all, you have to stand up to her and let her know you refuse to allow her to treat her this way. This is a fitness test, (a sh*t test in red pill terminology). You pass it by standing up to it. One easy response is to agree and amplify to dismiss her attacks.

The problem is that you got to this point by convincing her over a long term period that you are a weakling, so you now have to convince her over time that you are not a weakling.

There are a lot of brow beaten, henpecked Christian husbands whose wives treat them this way, even though the wives actually desire to be good loving wives out of devotion to God. They just can't tolerate their husband's failure to act like a man in the way woman are hardwired to want. These men need the red pill.
You'd be better off laughing at her in the middle of her tirade than you would apologizing and offering to do whatever she wants.

I have a policy of never apologizing directly to my wife, even when I technically should. Apologies make you look weak, and women hate, hate, hate weakness in men with a passion that is really quite terrifying. Even nice, good Christian women like my wife.

Instead, when I've been a jerk to her, which definitely happens sometimes, I'll do kind of a roguish smile and joke around with her in a certain way so that she gets that I feel bad about it but without my making myself look pathetic by saying I'm sorry or promising not to do it again or something else guaranteed to dry her panties up like the desert. This is a learned behavior, not my nature at all, but I've learned it the hard way by apologizing profusely to women in previous relationships, promising to do better, etc and witnessing how well that went. Essentially all the things that chumps in marriages that are "difficult" and "take a lot of hard work" do. Like you say, women may think they want that apology but when they get it it horrifies and disgusts them. So because I care about my wife and my marriage, I never apologize to her.

There was one time when she was really mad at me and outright demanded an apology, the only time that's ever happened. This really put my red pill belief in refusing to apologize to the test. I figured YOLO, grabbed her harshly, took her to an appropriate part of the house, and, shall we say...performed my husbandly duties rather roughly. Not going to lie, I was scared this wouldn't work out, but it did. Afterward she smiled and snuggled up happily with me and never brought up the issue she was upset about again.

This is the kind of stuff young guys need to hear that I'm glad we can talk about on this forum as opposed to how it was on RVF 2.x.
 
You'd be better off laughing at her in the middle of her tirade than you would apologizing and offering to do whatever she wants.

I have a policy of never apologizing directly to my wife, even when I technically should. Apologies make you look weak, and women hate, hate, hate weakness in men with a passion that is really quite terrifying. Even nice, good Christian women like my wife.

Instead, when I've been a jerk to her, which definitely happens sometimes, I'll do kind of a roguish smile and joke around with her in a certain way so that she gets that I feel bad about it but without my making myself look pathetic by saying I'm sorry or promising not to do it again or something else guaranteed to dry her panties up like the desert. This is a learned behavior, not my nature at all, but I've learned it the hard way by apologizing profusely to women in previous relationships, promising to do better, etc and witnessing how well that went. Essentially all the things that chumps in marriages that are "difficult" and "take a lot of hard work" do. Like you say, women may think they want that apology but when they get it it horrifies and disgusts them. So because I care about my wife and my marriage, I never apologize to her.

There was one time when she was really mad at me and outright demanded an apology, the only time that's ever happened. This really put my red pill belief in refusing to apologize to the test. I figured YOLO, grabbed her harshly, took her to an appropriate part of the house, and, shall we say...performed my husbandly duties rather roughly. Not going to lie, I was scared this wouldn't work out, but it did. Afterward she smiled and snuggled up happily with me and never brought up the issue she was upset about again.

This is the kind of stuff young guys need to hear that I'm glad we can talk about on this forum as opposed to how it was on RVF 2.x.
This is exactly right. The example I gave is horribly wrong. Women want the man to lead, and when he asks the woman to tell him what she wants him to do, it's like shooting himself in the foot. Also, as you say, reacting to her tirade with humor is best. If you get angry and yell at her, it comes off weak and butthurt. Laughing and not being upset is much better.

A lot of guys don't know this, and have actually been taught the opposite.
 
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This is exactly right. The example I gave is horribly wrong. Women want the man to lead, and when he asks the woman to tell him what she wants him to do, it's like shooting himself in the foot. Also, as you say, reacting to her tirade with humor is best. If you get angry and yell at her, it comes off weak and butthurt. Laughing and not being upset is much better.

A lot of guys don't know this, and have actually been taught the opposite.

Agree with what you said, but interesting to expand upon this.

Men often just want to speak as if they were talking to other men. Even after being game-aware, and having it work (and having the opposite always come back to bite me), I still want to ask people to share their thoughts on what we should do / eat / etc. Because when you are among male friends you sort of suggest things, take feedback, hash it out, casually insult each other, laugh, then agree to do a thing and go enjoy it.

You have a long day, lots on your mind, sort of tired, distracted, just coming off convos with male friends and business partners... so you are in a collaborative mode.

You say to your girl:

- "what do you feel like for dinner?" [strike 1]
- you press her for feedback when she reacts oddly to the previous question [strike 2]
- you casually insult her now that she continues escalating [strike 3]
- and even if you recover from all this and just start to lead and pick a place and otherwise turn game back on, she's probably going to pout or engage in some minor shit tests later that night (or in six months)... completely the opposite of what a guy would do in a group of male friends who decided against whatever his choice was

It all happens very fast. I guess if I had a commute after work I would be able to slide out of one mode and prepare for another, but I work from home.

Anyway, this example has nothing to do with being unaware of game. With one benefit, I suppose. I get less frustrated with my girl now when this happens, because I understand that her frustrating responses are nothing personal and entirely down to programming.
 
As others have said, women want a man they can respect. They want a man who can lead. But this begs the question: where does respect come from, and where should a man lead her?

Respect comes from a man having a mission higher than her. It can be devotion to God, it can be devotion to a mission or a calling. But it can't be faked; you can fake the actions of having a higher mission temporarily but if you don't actually have a higher mission, it will crash and burn just as badly as running fake game does. Developing a higher mission comes from doing a lot of soul searching which usually derives from experiencing a lot of emotional or spiritual emptiness and pain. It also comes from understanding that women are somewhere between children and men developmentally, and that they should be treated as such instead of put on some kind of pedestal -- an understanding that again can't be faked or intellectually accepted, it develops only experientially if you have discernment from enough interaction with women.
 
Well, these days a lot of men define "faked" in drastically different ways.

And for women, "fake" or not is subject to motion (which is to say emotion, or "a vibe"). Lots of chicks will say they dig an ambitious man as much as an accomplished one.

Some men will say an ambitious man on his path is "faking it" because he is not yet a billionaire or whatever the top 1% of the thing is.

Faking can also be confused with misrepresenting yourself. But often full disclosure in the face of any given interaction generally comes off as needy and/or excessive anyway.

"Fake it til you make it" is the most impactful statement so it is most used because it benefits the most people, but really it could be said "act as if" (much less powerful but just as true), and this is one thing that affords you the experience to eventually not be faking it anymore.

Re: your point about having a mission...

I'd argree that a man needs the meta mission of serving God. But still needs some kind of day-to-day mission that is entirely temporal. And it's less about leading a women vis a vis this mission as not allowing her to ever throw you off course from it.

A lot of the secular thinkers in this space will end it there. And that definitely works to a point. But the complexity in being a Christian man in this regard is to both be unwavering in your temporal mission but still find space and gentleness/care to set aside some energy and time to prioritize your woman and family and make them feel loved with full attention. And then the flip side is to not fall into the trap of over-indulging in that, too.
 
It's tiring having to overthink all this stuff. Why not just react to things however you want, on your terms. If you want to say sorry say it, but not in a grovelling way (unless you've done something really bad), or if you want to get angry then do that. But on your terms. Be nice, be harsh, be and do whatever you like, as and when the mood takes you. The original bad advice to just be yourself is actually correct, once you go full circle. It's like realizing that there is no spoon.
 
It's tiring having to overthink all this stuff. Why not just react to things however you want, on your terms. If you want to say sorry say it, but not in a grovelling way (unless you've done something really bad), or if you want to get angry then do that. But on your terms. Be nice, be harsh, be and do whatever you like, as and when the mood takes you. The original bad advice to just be yourself is actually correct, once you go full circle. It's like realizing that there is no spoon.
It's tiring to have to do one more pushup this week than last week. It's tiring to have to learn how to butcher animals and make your own bacon. And on and so forth. But if I prefer to not be tired, then I am stuck regressing and accepting whatever Zog has decided for me.

Things being "tiring" is like when the modern women complains that the average action is "literally exhausting" (they do this a lot).

I'd ask: so what?

As to "do whatever you like", that sounds a lot like "do as thou wilt", plus on top of it I have enough self awareness to realize that I too get tired and sloppy and that how I feel in the moment would sometimes poorly dictate the appropriate response to a situation.

My terms don't necessarily take into account the greater universe, so what's the harm in considering something beyond them?
 
You have to make them respect you. Their natural inclination is not to do so. If you're too willing to please them, they see that as a weakness, not worthy of their respect.

Agreed. Some wise posts in this thread. I'm glad we are having a realistic discussion about relationships.

What is "game" exactly?

The meaning of game seems to be up for debate and there is a lack of consensus about its definition and scope. I define it as something along the lines of "the internal intergration and external embodiment of attitudes, traits and behaviours that facilitate attraction, comfort, connection and ultimately the development of seduction, sex, bonding and the maintenance of relationships including marriage".

I know that "relationship game" doesn't seem like a common term but it certainly takes a lot of effort to become husband material, find a wife, attract her, build a deep connection, develop the relationship, get married, have kids, etc. If all this monumental effort isn't worth a second thought, and should just come "naturally" without conscious consideration, then I guess this thread won't be of much interest.

The denial or rejection of game

In some online circles, "game" or "PUA" represent trigger words that can unleash a round of comments from so-called Naturals along the lines of "PUAs are losers and try too hard, I just do my own thing, no tactics needed". Another, more pious claim is that "all calculated moves are bad, manipulation is evil, if you get a woman with game she is not pure of heart" etc.

Both responses typically do not make specific claims about what "game" is and is not, and appear to be a form of denial that game works, that you have direct control over your relationships, or that women can be understood and are not a mysterious species.

The common claim "Women just like tall guys with good pics on tinder so I shouldn't bother trying anything" is a fatalistic belief that leads men to MGTOW. Alternatively, righteous, vague statements such as "I will not chase a woman, I will focus on being a man of God first" may underscore a truly pure intention, and I wholeheartedly respect this. Unfortunately this may also reflect a wholly passive approach that won't work for most men.

Yes, it is important to have a higher calling, to be involved in your community, to have a career, hobbies, friends, etc. That's not disputed at all. But this hands-off, non-proactive approach will again lead many guys to end up prematurely in monk mode.

Such denialism serves few people except those who don't want to believe that you can make huge progress in your life and your relationships through an understanding of male-female dynamics and conscious repetition of proven approaches, and, that it can be done ethically.

For instance, the idea that 'being non-needy is attractive' is a non-negotiable tenant of any relationship, especially at the start. For many guys this does not come naturally so they will need to take conscious steps to manage their inner desires and outer perception and reputation. Robotic interactions and intellectual over-analysis are traps many young guys can get stuck in, sure, but for some guys this may be a necessary step towards mastery. Ultimately men need to consciously create value as a man of worth to themselves, others and God.

Understanding Frame

One more example: By simply knowing about the concept of frame, a guy can put himself ahead of the pack. This vid by Orion Taraban explains the concept in more detail:



^ By the way, I highly recommend his channel. When it comes to women, relationships and self-development, he is likely to be one the most insightful and fully red-pilled Psychologists on youtube today.

Is game good, evil, neither or both?

At its worst, game seems to mean lying to sleep with women and then discarding them. Likewise, tactics such as push/pull, negging, etc can be used to take down a hot girls ego a notch, yet may be inappropriate for a post-church group lunch.

The obsessive use of social media to curate a persona of a high value man is now the standard way to do modern dating, once the online swiping is done. Frankly, I dispise this online rat race and find it to be utterly empty, feminine, and sad. But, to be realistic, it is effective in demonstrating social proof to the modern female or dare I say, almost any female. "Wait!" An objector may say, "a trad woman would not respond to a profile of a travelling playboy". True, but almost every woman on earth is still attracted to a man of authority, fame, or high social status. Even young generally clueless men at church groups know that the bible study leader has more status and is thus more attractive.

At its best, game seems to mean growing into the best version of yourself, thus becoming husband material, and staying that way. To what extent is it robotic or immoral to improve your fashion, body language, physical strength, social status, voice tone, story telling, humour, emotional control, wealth, career, manly skills, etc? Perhaps it depends on the man's underlying motivations and how these tools or expressions are used. Such tools or methods can be used for good OR evil. So, I don't see the value in labelling 'game' as inherently sinful, especially since it tends to hide or push away important discussions about practical courtship steps and development of the self in the context of relationships.

Discussion - Jay Dyer

Here's a time-stamped clip of Jay Dyer and D.P Harry discussing a similar topic:



Game in Relationships

This thread has evolved from a discussion about pickup tactics and courtship to a discussion about maintaining frame and respect in relationships and marriage.

With that in mind I encourage posters with experience in relationships and marriage to post about their reflections in the relationship/marriage thread.

Men without much experience are certainly welcome to join as always, I would just ask them to be honest about their real-life expertise and the underlying basis for their opinions, I.e., if their opinions are based on theory, personal experience, watching others, etc.

Last, I encourage posters seeking to develop their existing relationships to share their experiences and thoughts as well. The line between 'courting' and 'committed' can be blurred, and these times make for a great opportunity to discuss some very interesting relationship dynamics and questions e.g., "should I propose to her?!" And so on.

I'll continue with some further reflections in the below thread, regarding The development and maintenance of respect in relationships:

 
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It's tiring to have to do one more pushup this week than last week. It's tiring to have to learn how to butcher animals and make your own bacon. And on and so forth. But if I prefer to not be tired, then I am stuck regressing and accepting whatever Zog has decided for me.

Things being "tiring" is like when the modern women complains that the average action is "literally exhausting" (they do this a lot).

I'd ask: so what?

As to "do whatever you like", that sounds a lot like "do as thou wilt", plus on top of it I have enough self awareness to realize that I too get tired and sloppy and that how I feel in the moment would sometimes poorly dictate the appropriate response to a situation.

My terms don't necessarily take into account the greater universe, so what's the harm in considering something beyond them?

I just meant that there's no need to overthink this stuff. Not do as thou wilt. Do as thou wilt is about something else, as we know. I'm just saying that although game is good, sometimes people put too much into it. And in a way that's not that different to trying too hard to please.
 
Excellent post. Without endorsing our pasts, we can have compassion on ourselves.

The liberal financial and the subsequent liberal social structure of the West meant that women delayed marriage until their late 20s. This changed everything. What are women going to do from the first time they first feel their sexual value in their teens to thirty - when they can take the infertility cult's eucharist to mitigate the hazards resulting from poor sexual choices?

Meanwhile most beta men (I do not deem beta as derogatory or the equivalent as "simp" but as the backbone of societies like NCOs are the backbone of the army and marines) entered the dating market with the advice, "treat women like how you should treat your mother and sisters". Their experiences of a dating market which does not see the average woman marrying until nearly 30 was brutal. This was compounded by witnessing the type of men women chose. This has rarely happened in history.

So then, beta men began to study what women want as a form of "self improvement" to feign the worst traits in men that women - not seeking marriage - sought.

Best post on this thread

One of my main gripes with the manosphere & red pill spaces in general is how "Beta" is thrown around as an insult. Funnily enough todays modern "liberated" women use it to degrade average men as well.

Society is built on a social contract between Alpha Males & Beta's. The Alpha's rule & the Beta's sacrifice & provide for the greater good. Then a 3rd category of weirdo men (the simps & pornographers of old) who would be outcast into the dungeons or tried for perverse crimes.

Religion held this all togethor. Then Social Marxism & it's ungodly creation Feminism sweeped in to destroy it.

Women lost their way by thinking they should sleep around. Alphas lost their way by greedly fornicating with women who should have been mothers.

And the Beta's lose out by working endlessley for society with no reward.

The simps & weirdos are promoted. Modern Woman still dont like them. But will tolerate them for financial & attention seeking reasons. Unfortunately many former "Beta" men have fallen into this category due to societal brainwashing, feminism & pornography.

The "normal" Beta's you see today are on forums like this one or are part of the "manosphere" if not very devoted to Christ
 
I was pretty successful with cold approaching girls, and "Game" had definitely helped me become more confident in that regard. I also think that the acquired knowledge of female nature was extremely advantageous on many levels, not just in trying to hook up with a girl. I know guys who would be classed as "naturals" as pulling girls mostly because of their looks, but they can't keep girls around because they don't understand women on a fundamental level.

This type of thing helps with all types of interactions, even in the business world, with family, and especially when you are in a LTR with a girl.

However, there was a really poisonous side of it which exploited vulnerable guys who had cash to burn and who were full of desperation. Sometimes the knowledge of something without the actual application of said knowledge was enough for people to open up online businesses and make a lot of money from it because of how desperate the situation had (and has) gotten for men in the dating market.

What really started to irk me was the people who routinely vocally lamented how slutty girls are and would seek international ventures to lands where the populations weren't as corrupted by feminism and globohomo, in an effort to find more "traditional" women...only then to run through as many girls as possible in those places purely for the sake of running up as high a body count as they could to look more macho in their online communities. They became the very corrupters that they claimed to be so angry at for ruining their own local women.

What the manosphere should have been (and perhaps still should be if it exists now?), is more of a focus on rejecting modernity and self improvement without the thought of bagging that unicorn 9/10. When my own life went that way, I got less engagement in the manosphere community which shouldn't be surprising.
 
It's tiring to have to do one more pushup this week than last week. It's tiring to have to learn how to butcher animals and make your own bacon. And on and so forth. But if I prefer to not be tired, then I am stuck regressing and accepting whatever Zog has decided for me.

Things being "tiring" is like when the modern women complains that the average action is "literally exhausting" (they do this a lot).

I'd ask: so what?

As to "do whatever you like", that sounds a lot like "do as thou wilt", plus on top of it I have enough self awareness to realize that I too get tired and sloppy and that how I feel in the moment would sometimes poorly dictate the appropriate response to a situation.

My terms don't necessarily take into account the greater universe, so what's the harm in considering something beyond them?
The problem is men living in a society where no enforcement of respect towards men come from society. If we lived a traditional society even if/when a man slipped up and did beta things that made the girlfriend/wife resent him she would quickly suck it up and behave normal again because her parents, the church, her family and friends, and society in general would chastise her for not being a good girlfriend/wife. Now 100% of the burden of keeping a woman in line falls onto the man and its a huge burden to bear. Men are not robots we cannot act 100% masculine/alpha all of the time.
 
Unfortunately this may also reflect a wholly passive approach that won't work for most men.
This is a really good thread, Steady hands with another solid post. Here he recognizes that "just focusing on yourself" still doesn't necessarily do anything if no one or nothing around you cares all that much (more below as all these points are linked).
But this hands-off, non-proactive approach will again lead many guys to end up prematurely in monk mode.
Same idea. If you have your own interests and frame, but they don't leverage anything, even if you that's not your intent, good luck with ever meeting a decent girl. This is why we would have the "magical god" comments on the last forum (more on that with Dyer clip below)
When it comes to women, relationships and self-development, he is likely to be one the most insightful and fully red-pilled Psychologists on youtube today.
Yes, this guy is very smart, very good with language, and just good enough looking and almost too smart to know he's above average and well meaning, but also not going to get all that many girls in this day and age (or not any young ones).
Here's a time-stamped clip of Jay Dyer and D.P Harry discussing a similar topic:
Dyer nails it in ways I always talk about around here. Tons of guys just don't have it and they never are going to. That's not the issue, as I've stated a thousand times. That's a population and cultural issue combined after 80 years of peace, wealth and a baby boom with welfare left and right. If you do numerous things that do in fact make you more attractive, but the women aren't any good or young around you, especially if your expectations are raised from working so long and hard to achieve XYZ, it means exactly zero unless "magical god" shows up. As far as women and family formation go at least, since that's what I'm talking about; I'm not saying don't self improve. What I am saying is that in a bad culture and worse and worse women, getting better only plays into their hands or shuts you out because you see that what you did is essentially in vain.
Women lost their way by thinking they should sleep around. Alphas lost their way by greedly fornicating with women who should have been mothers.

And the Beta's lose out by working endlessley for society with no reward.
Yes, the entire situation is one of every man for himself and when women were made more into "men", they became less and less valuable as any partner a good man would consider.
However, there was a really poisonous side of it which exploited vulnerable guys who had cash to burn and who were full of desperation.
If we're honest, 90% of the red pill stuff on the internet or elsewhere is about selling crap. Think of it - there's a path for everyone and there has to be incentives to do things in life, but we're interacting right now because a guy originally wanted to build a community around an idea and his persona, and also sell books.

You don't think the top Gs of the world realize that there is a hierarchy no matter what, it isn't going away, and the competition part and fake world with less and less attention to males in general is only getting worse? They probably laugh when they promote this stuff, just like they laughed when they made those phone girl chat companies and couldn't believe someone would talk to someone for big money, wanting to believe silly or ridiculous things or have "emotional" connections.
The problem is men living in a society where no enforcement of respect towards men come from society.
Great summary. This sums up or links nearly every one of my comments in this post. When it's every man for himself, very little good will come out of it for 99% of people.
Now 100% of the burden of keeping a woman in line falls onto the man and its a huge burden to bear.
Yes. And it gets worse - keeping her in line isn't any guarantee even if you do the right things, by the book - if she knows that an escape hatch with money is also possible. Sabotage and booby traps are everywhere. Again why I say few will be anything but indifferent when the collapse happens, even seeing all the carnage.
 
View attachment 3106

Game 2023

Reserve your seat for a limited time, wasn't this PUA internet marketing?
Are they suggesting there is "quality" on there?

Final pricing may change?

giphy.gif
 
Most if not all the issues on this thread can be mitigated by living in a society that follows the Path of Christ & not secularism.

But since most members of this forum don't the question is what do we do & how do we make a critical assessment about this?

Most Males & Females in our society are Lost. However I would argue that Females are way more at fault then men are (something that got me in trouble for mentioning in the old forum for some odd reason)

3rd wave/4th wave feminism (or whatever godless n'th wave they are on now) basically makes it acceptable for a female to become a single Lesbian/Insta-harlot/onlyfans harlot then a virtous Married woman or Mother.

I see more & more woman cheering on this type of behavior. They may not all engage in it but they definatley are OK with delaying their marriage till their late twenties or early thirties so they can play the field.

From what I see most men in the west ( If I could quantify I would say at least two-thirds) want to marry a loyal woman who can raise their kids one day. A lot of these men are "scolded" as Beta's & Chumps by Modern Women & Psycho Alpha types.

It's rather sad really. Red Pill has it's issues (But it was just a reaction to the N'th wave of Feminism) so it is much less to blame than modern women/feminism is for the decay of the family we are seeing today.

Sounds a tad bit blackpill but I honestly think a CCP style social credit system will be introduced on relationships & "datable" men in the future. i.e RFID cards that are tied into bank accounts and/or Smart Phone numbers for men & women who meet up. The men who dont fit a certain criteria or are reviewed negativley will lose access to approaching women for 6 months or so. Maybe even indefinitley.
 
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The problem is men living in a society where no enforcement of respect towards men come from society. If we lived a traditional society even if/when a man slipped up and did beta things that made the girlfriend/wife resent him she would quickly suck it up and behave normal again because her parents, the church, her family and friends, and society in general would chastise her for not being a good girlfriend/wife. Now 100% of the burden of keeping a woman in line falls onto the man and its a huge burden to bear. Men are not robots we cannot act 100% masculine/alpha all of the time.
100%
You can have a girlfriend on your own, but no way can you guide a wife and family on your own. Need at least the Church, at least one set of trad parents, and at least one other trustworthy family of friends going through the same thing.

That can also be a tough pill to swallow if one's journey was 1. disillusioned with the world and seeking answers >>> 2. found answers and applied them, got good results (essentially by going it on your own) >>> 3. got the girl and the career/business >>> 4. rest of world (Covid, govt, ex-friends, most of your family) keeps undermining your efforts.

The next step in Game is vetting and then getting the most out of (and positively contributing to) your local community, church and network of other game-aware men.
 
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